In the early 1990's there was more magic on our television screens than ever before, and it was

good
quality prime time viewing with no exposures. John
Fisher was busy with The Best of Magic on ITV,
there was The Secret Cabaret (Channel Four), and of
course Paul Daniels on BBC1, yet one name stood
out as the star of magic's future. With three series of
A Kind of Magic airing on Saturday evenings and a
close up special a few years later, Wayne Dobson, at
just 32 years old was giving TV magic a public
facelift; he was young, fresh, fast and funny.
Having started his entertainment career on the northern
comedy circuit and working men's clubs, Wayne turned
professional at nineteen years old - following his departure working as a lab technician dying socks when he
discovered he was colour blind! At 21 he appeared on
the children's television programme Blue Peter, as well
as Kids International and Search For A Star.
What followed was a career that most magicians could
only dream about.
Wayne was supporting Freddie Star on tour in Blackpool
when after the show he was approached by a wellknown agent, Tony Cartright. Tony asked Wayne to send
him his CV with the promise that within three years he
would tour the USA and have his own television series.
He also told Wayne that he would make him a millionaire. "I thought yeah right, heard it all before but what
have I got to loose? So I signed up with him. The only
part he faulted on was to make me a millionaire." This
illustrious life in the fast lane brought Wayne fast cars
(including a Ferrari and Porsche), a gorgeous wife and
tours around the USAwith some of the biggest stars of
the music industry, not to mention a lovely cottage in
Surrey with a swimming pool and priceless magical artefacts adorning the walls. But how long could a lifestyle
and career like this be sustained? Wayne Dobson's story
is unique, like him.
Today he is much less in the public eye though still very
active, he has recently undergone a divorce and sold
that lovely cottage - he is also one of the UK's 85,000

sufferers of Multiple Sclerosis. At the Guildford

Posthouse Hotel, Surrey, home to Wayne for three
weeks while renovations to his new house are competed, I caught up with him to discuss magic, life and one
very colourful career.
Before Wayne acquired the TV show, he made over sixty
guest appearances in a three-year period and toured
excessively with such notables as Shirley Bassey,
Freddie Star, Dean Martin and Englebert Humperdinck.
At one point Wayne recalls that he was the highest paid
support artiste in the country. "It made it increasingly difficult for them to afford me as a support act but I worked
really well with them. I didn't clash with anything that
they did and I was very different. In the end the only
option was to headline my own show. I remember once
when I was backstage with Freddie and as he walked
out on stage the audience erupted into a huge applause.
It was great, I thought it was so easy being the star how wrong could I be? The pressure when you get to
that level is so intense. Everything is on your shoulders
and if anything goes wrong it is your fault, if the numbers
are low it's your fault, you know what I mean? When I
used to perform as a guest artiste it was great, I'd collect
my money and go."

At one point Wayne recalls that

he was the highest paid support
artiste in the country
You once performed for 16,000 people, that must
have been some show! Yes, the person next to me
loved it! It was at a baseball stadium in Detroit and
Englebert Humperdinck was topping the bill. I did the
first half and he did the second. In those days I was
closing the act with the cigarette vanish and I have to
say it got me a big reaction, it just telegraphed throughout the stadium. It was a weird experience.
How did you find the American audiences? The
Americans like the British humour and I basically kept

the act the same. Once in Las Vegas Englebert told me

that I was going too fast. The English do speak very fast
and I had to learn to slow down. Sam Shovel went down
well and I did
the voices
too, that was
very well
received.
So how did
Sam Shovel
develop?
I've always
liked that
style of film
performers
like
Humphrey
Bogart and I
saw a few
people do
spoofs on
Sam Shovel
like Mike
Hammer. I started slotting in gags with that type of delivery and I really liked it. The one thing I dropped after a
couple of years was the American accent, it didn't work.
Now I just do it with an English accent that has a slight
'transatlantic twang'.
When you incorporated Sam Shovel into A Kind of
Magic were the ideas still your own or did you
employ a scriptwriter to keep up with the demand for
new sketches? The first one we did was on the Joe
Longthorne Show and it was all the gags that I had been
using for the previous three years, so I knew that it was
going to work.. When I look back that one was still the
best.
There's this clich that once you've used something on
TV it's gone forever - that's rubbish. I did the voice (vent)
routine no less than thirty times on television and to be
honest that's what becomes your trademark. You'll notice
that on the Royal Variety Show the performers that
always register are the one that have been doing the
same act for years, not the ones that write the material
specially for the show. I think that if you get no laughs
generated from the TV screen then you won't generate
laughs from the people watching. You laugh silently to
yourself but not out loud.
Music and applause cover a multitude of situations and I
am a big believer so long as it enhances and doesn't
intrude. When you're shooting for TV they won't put
music behind you when you're working, they'll dub it on
afterwards so that they can edit.
Talking of editing, I can remember doing a seaside special for a producer whom shall remain nameless, but he
had this reputation of being a very bad editor; in fact if

he died they reckon that his whole life will flash before
him but badly edited! You remember my firstly, secondly,
thirdly, fourthly, fifthly, etc? You can't edit that, it's impossible, you just can't - well I watched it on the Saturday
night it aired and I said secondly, thirdly and then ninethly! I thought 'He's cut something out there!'
I thought it was part of the gag. No, he actually cut it
out.
In terms of content and presentation how much say
did you have on the shows? I had the final say in
whether I would do something, obviously because I was
the performer. But I have the opinion that you should
never, and I didn't, surround yourself with people who
are envious of your position because you'll never get
100% from them. Pat Page was all the way behind me
as was Charlie Adams (pictured left), my writer. I would
suggest an idea and then Pat would give his input and it
would develop into a routine to present to the producer. I
always say with a producer, if they're not in the greatest
mood that day and you go in with a really good idea and
you get all excited and they just say 'well it's OK' you
can soon loose your confidence.
We had a sequence called Dream Vision in one of the
shows and I had a great routine for it. We did it in
rehearsals the week before and I knew it would work but
the producer didn't think so. I didn't have the confidence
to say 'you're talking rubbish, I want to do it.' So I came
up with another way of doing it using the supermarket
theme and the Margaret Thatcher look-a-like. It worked
but it would never have worked as well as the original
idea. If only he had encouraged me to do it my way from
the start.
So how do you get your own way with the producer?
You have to make the idea their idea. It could go something like this:
Performer: 'You know the idea with the rope that you
had last week?'
Producer: 'Err- Oh Yeah'
Performer: 'Well I loved it, I thought it was brilliant'
Producer: 'Well why don't you do it then?'
And bang, it's in the show!
So you have to eat humble pie, but that's how you get
your own way. It doesn't work all the time. I think a producer should be there to produce your idea, that's what I
think producer's role is. Unfortunately a lot of producers
are just frustrated performers. They don't want your
ideas, they want you to perform theirs and before long
you're not being you anymore.
Were you happy with the three series overall? Oh
Sure. There was some criticism from magicians in general who should know better. I was very proud with some
of the material. Some of it was a load of rubbish but at
the end of the day it was a half an hour a week for six

weeks, times that by three series and you've got a fair

amount of material.

you're not just doing someone else's material and being

second rate.

Having completed three series, was it a good time to

quit or do you wish you could have carried on?
During the third series we were talking about a fourth
and I had even been to America and sorted out the illusions and other big effects, by the time I got back the
franchise for Central Television was up in the air.

And was that the case with Darryl Rose? Well he took
the paper tearing routine that I did on TV. I was going to
do that for the Telethon to raise money. He saw it on A
Kind of Magic and did it exactly the same on Tricks 'n'
Tracks. The [Magic Circle] Council gave him a slap on
the wrist but he was on the Council at the time.

In the end Carlton purchased it and they didn't want any

more magic shows. Don't forget that there were a lot of
other magic shows airing at that time such as The Best
of Magic, The Secret Cabaret, Beadle's Box of Tricks
and...the other guy! The industry was swamped and it
was getting to the point where I was churning out a lot of
material and it became very conveyor belt entertainment.

Surely you accept that when you are in the public

eye people will assume they have every right to use
your routines? Oh sure. I totally accept that this will
happen. Recently someone sent me their publicity CD
and it featured my vent routine exactly as I do it. Fine.
People do these things and I accept it, what I don't
accept is when people deny it or they don't give me
credit for it. Your style of magic is very defined and very
'you', what do you think of David Blaine?

How much do you think your television work has

affected or changed British magic? I don't know really.
I remember watching Paul Daniels years ago and thinking that this was great; the way magic should be.
I was already doing a patter act that was heavily influenced by Ken Brooke because he showed me a loxt of

stuff. Paul Daniels did exceptionally well for British magic

but without a doubt my favourite magician was David
Nixon. My Mum said to me years ago that I should be
like him.
I don't think the public perception of magic was 'Wayne
Dobson', I think I was 'A Kind of Magic' which was the
way I presented it. Magic is my vehicle, my crutch, if
people say that Wayne Dobson contributed to magic
then great, but I think I just helped it progress to a point.
I have seen people do my routines many times and I am
sure they do it because I had success with it and they
assume they will too. But that is the learning curve.
Bernard Manning said to me that if you're going to nick
anything then nick from the best and make sure you do
it better! I've seen ideas myself and adapted them so
that you become Wayne Dobson doing that routine and

In this business you've either got a winner's face or a

loser's face. With David Blaine you like what you see,
you like everything about him, he's a cool dude saying
'Hey man, choose a card', and then you've got the poor

English equivalent whose name escapes me. I'm not

knocking the performer but I think the show is just a very
bad copy - I know it's blunt but it's true.
I've always liked raw edge performers, someone that
can communicate with people; raw edge is very professional. For example: If I'm, technically speaking, 'dying
on stage', or there's a very strong smell of embalming
fluid in the room, then you'll know about it because I'm
only human. But at the same time if I'm having a really
strong show you'll know about that also, so it works both
ways. Whereas a professional fully rehearsed show will
always be the same right the way through, the same
level, and for me that doesn't work.
I have a basic format that I stick to and then use it as a
springboard from which I can go off at tangents. It generates interest in me and also keeps me going as a per-

former; it stops me going stale. I've been doing the Sam

Shovel for nine or ten years now and I have just found
something similar that I can put in the show, so one of
them has to go.. I am going to drop the Sam Shovel,
which is a shame and I don't really want to.

magician. When people are insecure a natural form of

attack is to accuse you of nicking something, that's all
they can do - and I let him. We haven't spoken in nearly
fifteen years but I have no problem with him, but I think
for him I am a problem.

With A Kind of Magic you gave Paul Daniels a good

run for his money, without the MS do you feel that
you could have carried on the TV and been higher
profile? I think I condensed into my three years of television series what many performers achieved in ten or
twelve. I did loads and I've had a fantastic career. I'm not
bitter at all.

Being in the public eye - and indeed a household

name, do you think that you stayed level-headed
through it all? When I was doing really well I kept, and
still do, certain aloofness because I'm working and am
slightly different to them. But at the end of the day we're
all the same and we all end up six feet under. Everybody
in life has people that they don't like, I do, and you do. If
I don't like someone then I simply don't like him or her
and that's it. I don't like people that say 'Oh he's Mr Big
Time'.

This is a really hypothetical scenario but if someone said

to me; I am going to take away all of your achievements
in life and you will have nothing left BUT I will give you
back your health, - that would be a very difficult decision
to make. I
have
achieved a
lot and I really don't know
how I'd
answer. Of
course I want
my health,
but I have
done so
much. In my
career I
never got to
the point
where people
said 'God,
I'm fed up
with seeing him'. Don't forget that at the time it had nothing to do with my health, they just didn't want any more
magic. Physically at that point I could have done a fourth
series.
How much of the 'love/hate' thing between you and
Paul is for real and how much of it is just media
hype? Erm, it all started with one of my first major television performances, Live From Her Majesty's, where I did
Pat Page's ten pence, two pence gag. Paul accused me
of stealing it from him and stealing the voices (vent) routine.
So that's where it all started and then he kept on mentioning my name in the papers which was fine for me.
Someone once said to me 'If you want to aggravate
someone then be nice to them', and I've always been
nice to him." Understandably for Paul you did come on
the scene in a big way and were providing him with a
healthy dose of competition.
I guess so. But at that time I was so wrapped up in what
I was doing and he was just a thorn in my side, which is
pathetic really because there has only ever been one

So you're saying that a simple disliking for someone

can be perceived as arrogance procured from the
fame? Yes. You see I can sense if someone doesn't like
me, now some people would try and make that person
like them, I won't. I'd go the opposite way; I probably
won't like them either!
You didn't 'come out' about the Multiple Sclerosis
until 1996 with a front page Daily Mirror headline,
were you affected by the MS whilst working on A
Kind of Magic? It wasn't affecting the work but it was
affecting me. I knew that I'd got the problem and I was
getting annoyed about it because I was more worried
about how I was going to get to the centre of the stage
than I was about the act. There was also gossip going
around, unfortunately amongst magicians, that I was on
drugs and that I had AIDS and I was just getting fed up
about it. It wasn't that I was being secretive about it, it's
just that I was having trouble accepting it myself, so how
could I expect other people to accept it?
The first time we met I remember that you had the
lovely cottage, swimming pool and a selection of
cars. You
were also
reported at
one time to
be earning
up to
30,000 a
week. How
different is
your
lifestyle now
from those
days? It was
great. When I
was riding
high I had
everything
that you
should have
as a per-

former. I had three Caribbean holidays a year, and thank

God I did, otherwise I'd be looking back now with loads
of money in the bank and not being able to do anything
with it. I had a good time and I enjoyed it. I don't want for
anything that I used to have but the lifestyle would obviously be nice to still have now. I think I'd be lying if I said
otherwise. My life at the moment is pretty shit really, my
health is not great, my marriage broke up and after the
divorce we sold the house that I dearly loved but I am
really happy in myself and I am really happy as a person, why I don't know. Happiness for me is what is happening now, not what you strive for - because if you
strive for something then you won't always get it.
The MS must have been a strain for both you and
Karen. The thing with MS is it isn't sudden, you don't
wake up with it one morning. I've known for over twelve
years now. People come up to me and say that I'm so
brave - to me that is a great accolade to have bestowed
upon me but I think it is crap - there are only two options
in life, you either get on with it or you don't. I haven't
chosen to get on with it, it's just the way I am. My doctor
said to me 'Only do the things that you know you can do,
that way you won't get uptight about it'. That's a philosophy of mine that if you only do what you're good at then
it looks like you are good at everything. It's true.
What happened with your marriage? I got divorced
eight months ago; we're still friends. Karen enjoyed
magic a lot and so I guess she'll miss that side of things.
Divorce is never pleasant and it's a scenario that I never
wanted to go through but I did and it had to be done. It's
the sort of thing that can never be amicable even though
they say it can be. You can never both get your own
way. I was with Karen for sixteen years, so at the end of
the day there has to be something there, something that
makes you both tick, but she found it very hard to cope
with the situation we were in.
You have to move forward in life, you can't go backwards, she has her life to get on with and I have mine.
I'm 42 now and when you get to my age you get very set
in your ways and you have certain rules. I've had people
say to me since I've been divorced that if they had taken
marriage vows then they'd stay with me forever. That's
crap too - I don't want someone to be with me out of a
sense of duty, you want them there because it's what
they want.
At the time there was nothing exciting happening in my
life, the business had dropped off and because of the
divorce I had to sell the cottage for which I worked really
hard. I suppose I would have liked us to be a bit stronger
but I know what I'm like, if I can't have something I'll let it
go, it's not worth fighting for it. If a relationship is going
to last you shouldn't have to work at it - marriage shouldn't have to be an effort.
END