Michel Foucault ower348 Power cations and consequences can sometimes be found reaching oven into the fine fabee of sacey. But at the same time tis stateglestuation, more or less taken fr granted and consolidated ‘within a longterm confontation between adversaries Tecan cer Uainly happen tat the fact of domination may ony be the transcrip tion of « mechanism of power resulting fom confrontation at ts fonsequences (a policalsrcture stemming frm invasion); ‘nay also be that a elatonship of strugle between two aversaries he result of ower relations with the conics and cleavages they ‘engender ut what makes the domination of group, a case or € dass, together vith the resistance and revels that domination ‘comes up agaist a cenral phenomenon inthe story of soceties {s that dey manifest na massive and global form, atthe lve o the whole socal bods, the locking together of power relations with elaions of strategy and the results proceeding from ther inter ©: In. your interview with geographers at Werodot, you said that lrchecure Becomes pola atthe end ofthe eghtsenth century ‘Obviously was pola! earer periods, oo suchas daring he Roman Empire. What i particular about the eghtenth entry? ‘My statement was awkward in that form. OF course Tid not ‘mean to say that achitectre was not politcal befor, becoming x0 ‘nly a that time. T meant only to say that he eightcenth century ‘ne ses the development of reflection upon areitectre asa fue tion of the alms and techniques of the government of toes, One begins to see a form of pola Ierature that adres what the order ofa society shouldbe, what acy shouldbe, given the re- ‘uiremens of the maintenance of order even that one should void epidemics, avoid revlls, permit «decent and moral fan ‘We, and soon. In terms of these objectives, how sone wo conceive ofthe organization ofa ety andthe contruction ofa callectve ‘ntrastructure? And how should houses be bul? I atm saying not ‘hat this sort of refection appears only in he eighteenth century, but only that inthe eightenth ceatury a very broad and general Fefletion on these questions takes place. Ione opens 4 police re ort ofthe teste treatises that are devoted to the techniques ‘of government—one finds tha architecture and urbanitn occupy a lace of considerable importance. That i what {meant o ay Among the ancients in Rome or Greece, what was the dierence? 4 Inseusing Rome, one aces tha the probes revolves around350 Power Virus Vtrvios was reinterpreted fom the satenth centry fn, but one can find in the sateemth century aed no doubt in the Miade Ages as well—many considerations ofthe stme order as Vtrvius if yu conser them as “eflections pon The treaties ‘on plies, om the art of government, onthe manner of good gor- ‘rament, id not generally include chapters or analyes devoted the organization of ees orto architecture. The Republe of Jean Bodin doesnot contain extended diacassons ofthe role of archi tecture, whereas the police treaties ofthe eighteenth ceury are (0: Do-you mean there wore techniques and practices, but the dis fuse didnot exis? {eT i not say that discourses upon architecture did not exis efre the eighteenth century. Nor do mean to say thatthe di ‘aslons of architecture before the eighteenth century lacked any polical dimension or signiicance. What {wis to point outs that {tom the eighteenth century on, every discussion af plies asthe fr ofthe government of men necestarily includes a chapter of a Serie of chapters on urbaniam, on collective facies, on hygiene, fd on private arcitecture. Such chapters are not ound inthe di ‘caslont ofthe art of govermment ofthe sixteenth century. This ‘change is petaps not i the reflections of architects upon archi- tecture, but is quite clearly sen athe reflections of poltial mem. Settee nat marty change win he ery of rc, {Samat ght nas ot meena chang nthe mine Sree of Inter techiquer aught roma To be ‘Semi inthe ms of pote nthe hic nd he or ST atenton tat hey big tober upon the ejecta eo tence tem. Arete becue oe oe ing te 3 Cmte an eee centuries ©: Could you tet us why? {© Wel think that twas inked to a numberof phenomena, such the gest of they he es that was ear formate the beginning ofthe seventeenth century tate government ‘Stange ste such as France should uiinately think of ts ertor ‘onthe model of the city. The city was no longer perceived & Space, Knowledge, and Power st lace of privilege as an exception i teritory of fields, forests, 8nd roads. The cles were no longer islands beyond the common, law Instead the cites, with the problems that they rlsed, andthe particular forms that they tok, served atthe models forthe gov ‘mmental rationality that was apply to the whole ofthe territory. ‘There isan ene series of loplas or project for governing te "tory that developed on the premise that state sie large iy, the capital sik its main square; th roads are ike ts stress. A sae will be well organized when a system of policing as ight and ‘ficient as tht ofthe cites extends over the entre terstory. At the ‘outst, the notion of police ppled only to the et of regulations that were wo assure the anguility of mc, ut at that moment the police become the very pe of rationality forthe goveraivent the ‘whole territory The model ofthe ety Became the mat fr the ‘regulations that apply toa whole state “The notion of poe, even In Frunce today, frequent misun- ‘ersond. When one speaks to a Frenchman about police, he ca ‘onl think of people in unforn oi the secret service Inthe sv feteenth and eighteenth centure, “police” sgnifed a program of overnmental rationality. This can be characterized as project 10 {feate assem of regulation ofthe general conduit of individuals ‘whereby everything: would be controlled Yo the point of self. Sustenance, without the need Tor iterventon. This the rather Iypcally French efor of policing. The Engish for a numberof reasons did nt develop comparable sytem, mnnly becuse ofthe Pallameatary tradition on the one hand, andthe train of loca, ‘communal autonomy, on the other, not to mention the religious Stem. ‘One can place Napoleon almost exact atthe break between the ‘ld organization of the eighteenth century police wate (understood, ‘course, inthe sense we ave been dicuasing, nt Inthe sense ‘tte “pole sae” as we have come to Know) and the forms of the modern state, which he invented. At any rte It seein that, ‘tring the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, there appeared — ‘ther quicly inthe case of commerce, mare slowly nll he other ‘domains—this iden ofa police that would manage to penetrate, 0 ‘simulate to regulate, snd render alee automata the mech {nisms of soy. "This dea has since been abandoned. The question has been382 Poser ‘mental rationality that wil Be abe Yo penetrate the body polite to ts most fundamental elements? Rather How is government post ‘ble? Thats, what ste principe of Limitation tht applies to gor ferumental actions such that things wil eur forthe best in ‘Sonforty withthe rationality of government, and witout inter: Ts here thatthe question of liberalism comes up. It seems to ‘me tht at that very moment it became apparent tha fone gor ferme too much, one did not gover at all~that one provoked re- Sits contrary to those one desired. What was dacovered at that {ime-and this was one ofthe great discoveries of pola thought lathe end ofthe eighteenth century—as the Sedu society. That isto, that government not oly hast dal wi etry, wih 4 domal, and with its subjeets but that iaso has deal witha ‘complex and independent reality that has its own laws and mech Shs of reactions regulations a well as its posses o is. turbance. This new realty is society. From the moment that ones to manipaloe society, one cannot consider it completely penetra bie by police. One mit ake ito seouat what its. I becomes ‘eeesry to fle upon upon speiie haracterists, cae fant and ts arabes So here fra change in the importance of space. Inthe eighteenth ‘etary there sa a erty and the problem ef governing people ia thi terior on can choose as an example La Metropol (168) of Alesandre LeMatre—a wopian treatise on how 1o bull 2 capital ‘yor one ean understand a ity as a metaphor or symbol or the leroy and haw to govern ic Alef spatial whereas er Napolen, sees no necessarily so spaalized. ‘That righ. On Ue one hand, tis nt so sptialzed, yt at the ‘ame time a certain numberof problems tha are propery seen a8 ‘Stal emerged. Urban space hae is own dangers: disease, suc {tthe epdemies of eholera in Europe fom 1830 to about 180; an ‘evolution, uch a the series of urban revolts that shook all of Bu ‘ope during the same period. These spatial problems, which Were perhaps not new, took ona new importance. ‘Second a ew aspect ofthe relatons of space and power was tne rallroads, These were tesa «network of communica ‘Space, Knowledge and Power 355 no longer corresponding necessarily to the tradional network of ‘oad, but they nonetheless had to take into account the nature of Society and its history. In edition, thee are all he social phenom fena that ralloads gave se to, be they the resistances they po voked, the transformations af population, or changes in the tehavior of people. Europe wan immediately seasive to the changes in behavior that the ralroade entailed. What was ging to happen, fr example, sit was possible o get marved betneen Bor ‘demux and Nantes? Something tha as ot posible before. Whi ‘was going to happen when people in Germany and France might {et to know one another? Would war sll be posable once there ‘were railroads? in France, a theory developed thatthe ralloads ‘would increase familiarity among people, and that the new forms ‘human universality made possible would render warimnposble ‘But what the people did ot foresee—altough the Germany command was fly aware ft since they were muuch cleverer than their French counterpart—as tha, on the contrary, the rallroads Fendered war far easier to wage. The thin developmen, which ame laer, was electri ‘So there mere problems inthe inks betwen the exercise of po- lal power and the space of terstry, or the space of ces — inks that were completly nem. ©: Soitwa ssa matter af archecturethan before, These resorts “ftechnier ef pace ‘The major problems of space, rom the nineteenth century on, ‘were indeed ofa diferent type. Which is not to say that problems ofan architectural ature were forgotten, In terms othe rt ones {referred to—lsease and the pola problems—archtecture has ® very important ole o play. The reflections on urbanism ad ot the design of workers housing—all of these questons—are an area of eflection upon architecture ©: Rutarchiectur ie the Ecol des Beas Ars, belongs to acon lett dierent tof spatial sues. ‘©. That's ght With the birth af these new technologies and these ‘ew economic processes, one see the birth oft sort of tithing bout space that is no longer modeled on the polce state ofthe ‘tunzatin of the terior ba extends or beg the ite of354 Power 1 Consequently, the Keo des Pons e Chaussées 1 Thats right "The cole ds Pons et Chaussées and is capita importance in political rationality in France are par ofthis. was ‘ot architects but engineers and bullders of ridges, rsd, vi ducts rallways, as well asthe poltechncins (who proctcall con ‘elle the French railoads)—thoe are the people who thoughout (9: Has this station continued wp to the present or are we witness. Iga change in relations Bencen the echniians of space? ‘We may well witness some changes, but I think that we have “ul now remained with the developers of he tertoy, the people ft the Ponts et Chaussées, et, (So areiets are not necesarity the masters af space that they ‘nee were or believe themselves 0 Be. [Thats right They are nt the technicians or engineers ofthe three great vrlablesteretory, communication and speed: These ‘escape the domain of architect. (Do you se any paricalar architectural projet either in the past ‘represen a frees o beraion or estan? {ST do ot think tat it Is possible to say that one thing is ofthe der of “iberation” and another is of the order of oppression ‘There are a certain numberof tings that one can say with some certainty about a concentration camp, tthe elect that tis ao al Instrument of iberation, but one ahold tl take ito account and this isnot generally acknowedged—that,asde from torre tnd execution which preclude any resistance, no matter how te ‘ifyng ven system maybe, there always emai he possibile of resistance disobedience, and oppositional woupings. (Om the oer ad, 1 40 not think hat Whereis anything tha it fustionaly-by ts very nature—absaatly berating Liberty is @ ractie 0 there may in fact, always be a certain numberof pro Jeet whose alm sto modify we constraint to loosen, oF to break them, but none ofthese projects ean, simply by its nature ‘ese that pcople wil have liberty automatically, thats will Be ‘tablished by the project ise The Ubertyofmen te never assured by the insittions and Ins intended to guarantce them. Thi tvhy los allo these laws and intitutons are quite capable of Space, Knowledge, and Power 355 being turned around not tecaute they are ambiguous, but imply Decase “iden” i what must be exerted, {Wel up to pot there ts Le Corbusier, who ie described to aya srt of ervlty that I find perfectly uclese—ae a sor of ‘ryplo Stans. le was, Tam sure, someone al of ood intentions, tnd what he di was in fac dedicated to berating effects. Perhaps the means that he proposed were inthe end les berating han he ‘hough: but, once again, I thnk tat itean never be inherent in the structure of things to guarantee the exercise of freedom. The fuarantee of freedom is eedom. @: Soyoudo ntthink of Le Corbusier san ezample success. You ‘re simply saying tat his intention was berating. Can you wie ‘succesful example? ‘No. Tt cannot succeed. If one were to find place, and perhaps there are sume, where Uberty i effectively exereieed, one would ‘ind hat this nt owing to the order of objects, bu, once aga, ‘owing to the practice of liberty, Which is not to sa thal, eral, ‘one may as well leave people in slums, inking that he eas ly exercise thee rights there. Meaning that architecture inal cannot resolve soctalproblems? 4: 1 think that it cam and does produce pone effects when the liberating intention of the architect coincide wit the rel practice ‘ot people inthe exercise of thelr freedom (© ut the same architecture conserve other ends? 4 Abvoltely. Let me bring up another example: the Ramiistire Jean-Baptiste Godin at Guise (1850). The architectre of Godin ‘vas cleary intended forthe freedom of people: Here was Some thing that manifested dhe power of ordinary workers o participate In the exeraise oftheir trade was a rater important sign and Instrument of autonomy for a group of workers. Yet no one could eater oe leave the place without being seen by everyone—a aspect af the architecture that coud be totally oppressive. Butt coud only be oppressive If people were prepared to use thelr own presence In order wo watch over otters. Let's iagine a community of une ed sevual practices that might be established were Itwould once350 Power again become a place of freedom. think Its somewhat arbitrary to try to disocate the effective practice of treed ty people the practice of socal relations, and the spt dstrbutons in which {he find themacives. I they are separated they Become imposible tounderstand. ach can only he understood through theater ( Yetpeaple have en atempted find utopian schemes iberate People, rt oppres hem ‘N'Men have dreamed of Uberaling machines. But there are {machines of freedom, by definition. This snot to say that he ex- ‘reise of freedom is completly iniferent to spatial distribution, butt can oly funtion when there is certain convergence; nthe te of divergence or distortion, immediately becomes the o9- Donte of that which had been intended. The panoptc qualities of Guise could perfectly wll have allowed i to be wed as prison, Nothing could be simpler 1 is clear tht, in fact, the Fame ‘may well have served as an instrument for discipline and rather ‘Sabenable group pressure, (©: So, once again, the intention af he artic is not the fundamen rquirieswhich are by definition metaphyscal—on the founda. 3 of power ina tocely ofthe seif-nsitaian of «soley, and oom These are not fundamental phenomena. There are only re (© Youhoe singled out doctors prison wardens, priests, dees and pryehintrats a ky figure inthe political configurations that cae ‘domination. Would ou pt architects on this i? ‘x "You know, Iwas not really atempting to describe figures of ‘omination when I referred to doctors and people Uke that but, ‘ater to describe people through whom power passed or who are Important in the fide of power rlauons. A paint in a ment Inaittion i placed within eld of fairly complicated power r= ladon, which Erving Goffman analyzed very well The pastor in& Christan or Catholic crc in Protestant churches itis somemat Space, Knowledge, and Power er dierent san important tink ina set of power relations. The ar hitet snot an intial of that sr. ‘fer ll the architect hat no power over me. IT want to tear own or change a house he bull for me, put up ew partons ‘add a chimney, the architect has no contro. So the architect shouldbe placed in another eategary—hich i ott sy that he ‘snot totally foreign tothe organization, the plementation and all he techniques of power that are exercised n'a society. would ‘ay that one must ake hin—bis mental, his atitade ino ac ‘count as well as his projects in order to understand a certain ‘numberof th techniques of power thet are invested in architec ture, but he isnot comparable toa doctor, apres, a poychiarst, ‘ora prison warden, ©: “Postmodernism” has recived a great deal of tention recently ‘in arehitectural ices. also being talhed about in philosophy, ‘notably by dean-Branois Lyotard and Hirgen Habermas, Cleary, strcal reference and language play an imporiant role in the ‘modern pstame. How do you see postmodern bth as architec {ure and in terms ofthe historical and philowophical questo tha fare posed by ‘© Think that there isa widespread and facile tendency, which ‘ne should combat, to designate that which has just ceurred as ‘he primary enemy, as if this were always the principal form of ‘oppression frm which one had to iberate mesell Now thi simple tude ents « numberof dangerous consequences fest, a ‘linaton to seek ut some ehesp form of erchalst or some imag Inary past forms ot happiness that people didnot, infact, have all For instance, inthe areas that Interest me, is very amusing 'o see how contemporary sexuality is described at something a soltlyterile. To think thai only posible now to make love aie turning off the television! and i mas-produced beds! “Not ike that wonder time when.” Well what about those won erties when people worked eighteen hours a day and Were this hatred of he present or the immedite past daa serous tendency o invoke a completely mythical past. Second, ‘here ithe problem raised by Habermas iene abandons the work358 Power ‘of Kantor Weber, for example, one runs the ris of lpsing into irationaly. Tram completely in agreement with this, but at the same time, our question is quite diferent: think thatthe central ue of pi Tosophy and critical thought since the eighteeth century has al ‘ways been, sil i, and wil, Chop, remain the question: hat is This Reason What we use? What ar its historical elects? What are "lm, and et ae is dangers? How can we exist as rational being, fortunately commited to practicing a rauonaly thats un fortunate erecrosed by intrisie dangers? One should remain as close to this question as posible, Keeping in mind that ts both feral and extremely dificult to resolve. In addition, if ts ex- teemely dangerous to say that reason is the enemy that should be ‘liminated, is ust as dangerous to say that any ental question Ing ofthis rationality risks sending ws nto rationality. One should ‘ot forget—and Tm saying this notin order to eee rationality ‘butto show how ambiguous things are—it was onthe basso the ‘amboyant rationality of social Darwinism that racism was for. ‘mulated, becoming one ofthe most enduring and powerfl ingre- iene of Neuse This was, of course, an irratlonality, but an {rationality that was atthe same Une, afer alla certain frm of rationality "Tie the situation we are in and must combat. If intellectuals in general are to have » faction, i crtcal thought ef has @ funtion and, even more specially, philosophy hs a uncon sy, oH Indipensabiity, and, at the same tne, to ts Intense dangers (All that being said it would be fur say that you are much est “afraid ef historic and the play af istorialrefrences han some. Ge tike Habermas as, that this issue as been posed in archi treat almost aera ection by the defenders f moder ttho contend that we abandon modern archecture fora frivolous ‘turn to decoration and moti, cearesomehow abandoning ell. “tion. On the other hand, some posnoderisis have claimed tha ‘Space, Knowledge, and Power 350 ‘Although i may not answer your question, | would sy this one Should totaly and absolutely suspect anything that claims toe 8 ‘elurn. One reason in logical one: there i infact no such thing 4s return History, and the meticulous interest applied to history, Iscerainy one ofthe best defenses against ths theme ofthe return. or me, the history of maness ofthe stdles of te prison. were done in that precise manner because T knew full wel—this i a fact what aggravated many people—tat I was carying outa his torial abadyas In such « manner that people could enticze the resent; butt was imposible for them tay, “Lets go Back tthe (ood old days when madmen inthe eighteenth century. or, Let’ go back tothe days when the prison was not one ofthe rin ‘ipa instruments No think that Nistor preserves som tht srt of ideology ofthe ret. (0: Hence the simple opposition benwen reason and history rather Silty... choosing sides between the ‘Yes Well the problem for Habermas s after al, to make a transcendental mode of thought spring forth against any histor ‘dsm Tam, Indeed, far more histories and Nietschean 1 donot Uhink dat tere Is a proper usage of history ofa proper usage of Inuahistrical anayais--which is Virly Tac, by the way that works precisely agains this ideology of the return. A good study of peasant architecture in Europe for example, would show the ter ‘anity of wanting to return tothe ie individual house with Is thatched roof History protects us from histriis—from a histor ‘em that als onthe paso rsolve the questions ofthe present. ©: also reminds us that here is aieays a history tha those mod- ‘ers who wanted fo suppres ay reference tthe past were making ‘emitake. OF cour, : Your nest to books dea with sexuality among the Greks and {he cary Christians Are there any particular arhteural dimensions {othe tues you dieu? ‘Tid find any, absolutely noe. But wha interesting i tat In imperial Rome there were, infact, brothel, pleasure quarters, ‘criminal areas, and so on, and there was also ane sat f qs Public place of pleasure-the baths the termes. The bale were 3360 Power ‘ery important place of pleasure and encounter, which slowly dis- ‘ppearedin Europe. In the Mid Ages, the baths were sila place ‘encounter between men and women ab well sof men with men find women with women, although thts rarey talked about. What ‘were refered to and condemned, as well as practiced, were the ‘cacounters between men and women, which disappeared over the ‘ourse of the sxeenth and sevententh centuries (Inthe Arab world it continues. ‘S Yes but in France I has largely ceased. sil existed inthe fineteenth century. One sees itn Les Enfants du paradis, and itis stray exact. One of the characters, Lacenalre, was—no one ‘mentions Ita swine anda pimp who used young boys to attract, ‘sider men and then Blackmaled thems there scene Ghat refers {o thi I required all the naiveté and antihomosexualiy of the Sur- ‘alse to overlook that fact So the bas continued to exis asa Place of sexual encounters, The bath Was a srt of cathedral of pleasure atthe heat ofthe ty, where people could go as often as ‘hey wanted, where they walked about picked each ater up, met ‘each oer, took thelr pleasure, at, dramh, discussed. So ser was not separated from the other pleasures. 1 was in {rib inthe centr ofthe ets. I ous publi ered a purpose 1S Thats right. Sexuality was obviously considered social plea ‘ture forthe Greeks andthe Romans. Whats intresting about male homosexuality today—this as apparently been the case of female hhomasesuals for some thei hat tei sexual relations are m= ‘diately translated ilo socal relations, and the social relations fre understood as sexta relations For the Greeks and the Romans, ine diferent fashion, sexual relations were located within social ‘elation inthe west sense ofthe term. The baths were a pace ‘of soctalt that included sexual relations. ‘One ean directly compare the bth andthe bruthel. The brothel nin fact place, and an arcltecture, of pleasure. There sin fac ‘ver interesting form of sociality that was studied by Alin Corbi in Let Files de nocess The men of he cy met at the brothel; they swore tied to ane another bythe fact thatthe same women Trough their hands, that the ame diseases and Infections were ‘communicated ta thers, There was socal ofthe brael, ba the sociaity ofthe baths a existed among the ancients—a nem ‘Space, Knowledge, and Power se ‘version of which could perhaps exist agaln—was completely difer- trom the saciaity of the brothel ©: Menow know a great deal about dicipinary architecture. What ‘bout confessional architecture the kindof architecture tha sould be asocated with a conestonal ecology? ‘You mean religious architecture? I hi tht it has been sad led. There isthe whole problem of a monastery as xenophobic. “There one nds precise regulations concerning ie in common af fecing sleeping eating, prayer the place ofeach indivi in all of that, he cel ll of iis was programmed from very erly on, 1 Ina technology of power, of eonfesion ax opposed to dixie ‘pace seems op a central role a well. ‘© Yes: Spaces fundamental in an frm of communal ie; space 1s fundamental in any exerlse of power. To make a parenthetical remark, [real having been invited in 1966, by group of archi: {ects oo a study of space, of something that I clled at that tne “heterotopia” thore singular spaces tobe found in some given social spaces whose functions are diferent or even the opposite of ‘thers. The architects worked an this and a the end ofthe study ‘Someone spoke up—a Sarreanpsychologist—who frebombed me, Siying that space Is reactionary and captalis, But history and be. ‘oming are revolutionary. This absurd discourse was nota all un Usual at the time. Today everyone would be conrulsed ith laughter at sucha pronouncement, but not then ©: Architects in partial, they do choose t anabe an iat Tonal buliing sich asa hospital ora school i terms oft di ‘nary function, would tend focus primary onthe wall. fr al, ‘at i what they design. Your approach is perhaps more concerned {eth ace, rather than architecture, in that the physea! walls are ‘nly one aspect of the insttution. How would you characterize the erence betceen these teo approaches, been the building ae ‘and space? 4 think there is a diference in method and approach. It is true {al for me, architecture, in the very sue analyses oft that have teen able to canduc, i ony taken as a element of support, to fnaure a certain allocation of people in space, a canalization of Meir ceeulaion, as well asthe coding of their reciprocal relations363 Power Soitis not only considered a an clement in space, buts especially ‘ought of as a plunge into a fed of social relaions in which It ‘rings about same specie fet. For example, know that thre is historian who ts carrying out some Interesting sts ofthe archacology ofthe Mie Ages, ‘which he takes up the problem of architecture, of houses inthe ‘Midde Ages, i terms ofthe problem ofthe chimney. Think that Ine sin the process of showing thal beginning aa certain moment ‘twas possible to build chimney nse the house—a ‘wth hearth, not simply an open room or a chimney outside the ‘hose; tha t that moment all sorts of things changed and relations ‘between individuals Became posible. Al ofthis seems very inter- ‘ating ote, bu the conclusion tat he presented in an article was {hat the history of ideas and thoughts i useless. ‘What isn fact interesting i thatthe two are rigorously indi Ibe. Why di people traggle to ind the way to ut cizney side the house? Or why di they pat their techniques to this use? Sooften in the history of techniques it takes years or even centuries 1oimpement them. Is certain, and of eaptal importance, tat technique was «formative influence on ew human relations, but iti impossible to think that it would have been developed and ‘adapted nd there aot Been in the pay and strateay of human re Takons something which tended in thal direction. What interest Ing is always Interconnection, not the primacy of this over that, which never has any meaning ( Inyour book The Order of Things you constructed certain vivid ‘oti metaphors to dexribe stracareofthought hy do You hin ‘te possible tat since Iwas interested in he problems ‘t space, used quite number of patil metaphors in The Order (fringe, bt unsnlly these metaphors Were Rot ones that Ta ‘anced bat ones I was studing as objects. What is striking in the ‘plstemlogial mutations and transformations of the seventeenth ‘century is fo see how the spalizaion of knowledge was one of ‘he factors in the conan of tis knowledge asa selene. TUE ‘aturl story and the clasieatins If Lnnaeus were possible, it Space, Knowledge and Power 35 Js fora certain number of reasons: on the one hand there was ‘teraly spallation ofthe very objet oftheir analyses, since they gave themselves the rule of studying and clanayng plant ‘only on the basi of tht which was visible. They dn even want {use a microscope All the tational elements ufknowledge such 45 the medical fanctons of the plant, fll away. The objet ‘Spatilzed. Subsequently, it was spatalized Insofar asthe prin ‘les of clasication had to be found inthe very structure o the Dla the numberof elements, how they were arrange, thelr sae, ‘and so cn, and certain oer elements, tke the bright of the plant ‘Then there was the spatazaion into iatrations within Books, which was ony possible with cemtan printing techniques. Then the ‘patilzation of the reprodcton ofthe plans themseves, which ‘vas represented in books. Allo these ae spall techniques, not metaphors the actual plan fora bullng—the precise drawing that be- ome walls and windows the same form of scours assay frarehial pyramid that deveribes rather precy relations between ‘people, no ont in space but also i soca fe? ‘© "Well think tere are afew simple and excepinsl examples {whieh the architectural means reproduce, with more or es em ‘has, the social hierarchies. There i the model ofthe military amp, where the military hierarchy is o be read on the ground self by the place occupied by he tents andthe buldngs reserved for each rank lt reproduces precisely trough architecture «py ‘id of power; bt this isan exceptional example, a is verging Imitaryprleged in society and of an extreme simpli (ut the plan seis not acays an acount af relations of ower. ‘No, Fortunately for human imagination things are ie more Complested than that, (2: Architecture is not ofcourse, constant thas along radon of ‘hanaing precceuparion, changing systems, dierent rade The outage cao] of architectures party the hoy of the profes ‘om, party the evolution of a slence of construction, and party ‘uring of acsthee theories, What da you thin sparta about Silom tcc ae ae the ntl,‘whether goverment can beth object of an exact science. On the ‘ther hand, architecture ke dhe practice of overnment and the practice of other forms of social organization, Is considered as a fetid, possibly using elements of sciences like physics, for e mpl, asa, and so on..~, thats what is interesting, Batit tne wanted odo history of arcitecture, [think that it shoud be tmuich more along the lines of that general history of the tend ‘ther than the histories of either the exact sciences or the inexact ‘ones. The disadvantage ofthis word tech, reall, sits elation tothe word "echnology” which has avery speiic meaning. Avery ‘narrow meaning is given to “technology one thinks of hard tech tology the technology of wood of fire of electricity. Whereas gov- foment is ko a function of technology: the goverment of individuals, the government of soul, the goverament ofthe by the self, the government of families, the government of children, tnd so on. [believe that ff one placed the history of erctecture bck n his general history of tthe in this weide sense of the word, fone would have a more intersting guiding concept than by the ‘ppoaition between the exact siences andthe inexact ones. + conte a ein rt ape i eared Oasys ‘A DIAMOLICAL PAIR? 2: Traditional, social security protects individuals against a cer {ain number aris in connection wth sicknes, fay srucare and ‘old age. Cleary it must contin to fll thi fueton. However, between 1948 and today, things have changed New needs have appeared. Thus we are witnessing a growing dei for indepen dence among india and groupe: the aiplraions of hdr ‘vis their parent, af women eines men, ofthe sek isd els doctors, an ofthe handlewpped viv alsors of ttatons. et ‘becoming equaly lear that we ned to pul amend othe phenomenon ‘fmarginaliztion tribuabein large partto unemployment uta ‘m certain cases, tthe dfiencies four system af soca protection. ‘We believe that atleast tes uo neds mt be then into acct bythe net sca security administration, n order tht theater tae on newly defined functions that etal a remadeling of ts tem af alioctions Do you belies that thet needs reales incur society? ould you cll tention to other? And how, in your opinion, en ‘ei scary rand then? 1 Theleve that tia w ings right a A ar tas cesar emp he ings ht Fist ofall our system of soa gurantee, ait was established ‘in 4948, has now reached its econo ite. ‘Second, this system, elaborated during the inerwar yare—that