The Fidonet HOLYSMOKE Frequently Asked Questions List

Created by David Rice

Updated, maintained and posted by C. J. Henshaw and Coridon Henshaw
Last Revised 06 Apr 11995 - Revision 666.012 - Hail Satan!

Compilation Copyright 1995 Coridon Henshaw. All rights reserved.
Individual quotations remain the property of their respective owners.
Free license for intra-HOLYSMOKE duplication and distribution.
DUPLICATION OR DISCLOSURE TO NON-HOLYSMOKE PARTICIPENTS PROHIBITED.

Comments from the FAQ keepers:
The two ones in the header are not a typo.
The copyright isn't a joke; I don't want to have drooling fundies at
my door because of this document.
Before anyone asks, no, I didn't get a batch of really old mail for all
these additional quotes. They've been sitting in my 'Add to FAQ' file
(yes, that's the filename) since the begining of March.
Disclaimers:
This product warps space and time in it's temporal and spacial
location. Do not expose to antimatter. Will not block gunfire. Do not
ignite. Do not eat. Definitions of words may vary.
Quote of the issue:
"Welcome to Holysmoke. That is probably the last nice thing I will ever
say to you. Such is life." - George Rudzinski
Quotes:
"Welcome to the lovely world of HolySmoke! Watch out! The sugar-coating
you now wear will probably wear off before long. It doesn't take very
long, here. We're the Comet Cleanser of religion." - Questor Thews
"We're not here to discuss religion, we're here to be disgusted by it." -
Gwen "Gwenny the Pooh" Todd
"Some parents, primarily fundamentalist Christians, would like the schools
to teach their particular moral values. Those values are not necessarily
shared by everyone." - D Mc Intire (talk.origins)
"Wrong! I'm the fucking antichrist. Bow down slave!" - Ryan Shaw
"You must suffer from some unknown mental condition, Andy. Throughout
your posts you seem to equate liberalism with people who you consider
"evolutionists[sic]." Liberalism, and conservatism for that matter are
both political theories and have very little to do with whether or not
one is considered an "evolutionist[sic]" by you. Wait, on the other hand
most dumbass rednecks seem to be conservative. Shit, I take that back.
Even a redneck isn't that stupid." -RS
"I feel sorry for you, 'cause when the END comes, you are going to be one
of those crying for the rocks and mountains to fall on you to hide you
from God's glory. You will finally fall on your face and worship the One
that created ALL, and then you will not have a chance. A carpenter was
not elected as God, not by anyone of this world. You will know, one day
that God wanted you to follow Him and THEN it will be too late. I have
pity for you, for as you are speaking now, you are lost. You can believe
whatever you want to, God gave you that choice, and you choose to follow
the devil. May God have mercy on your soul." - Greg Waggy
"If you are from an area where gays aren't bashed you wont be afraid to
experiment if you want." - Jeff Androsac
"YOU AREN'T BORN GAY!!! I DON'T CARE WHAT HOMOSEXUALS SAY, THEY CHOOSE
TO BE GAY. AND THEY MADE THE WRONG CHOICE, SO HELL AWAITS THEM!" - JA
"The Church is very tolerant, as is proven by God not sending a lightening
bolt to fry those who blaspheme in the manner which the ULC does -
particularly by taking something which God and millions of men hold sacred,
and then attempting to make a joke of it, belittling it, and smearing it
with every type of ridicule you can think of." - Fr. Lee Mc Colloster
"It is nice to rember, when people are so foolish, one day soon every knee
will bow and every mouth will confess Jesus as Lord!!!" - Hampie Mcdonald
"A.I.D.S. was actually a GAY disease until the gay scum community infected
the NORMAL world!" - Dale A. Cook [ed brain]
"Key words: "we want". Instead of making demands, why not try working to
those ends? Preferably without shotguns." - Marty Leipzig
"Coming from a person who can see through a keyhole with both eyes open,
I just consider the source." - ML
"I think you're anti-science, anti-intellect and anti-logic. The mere
fact that you're a Xtian to boot really does nothing other than label you
with the type of superstition with which you feel most comfortable." - ML
"Read up on what you rant about; perhaps then you won't come across as
such a blightered moron. Perhaps." - ML
"Of course it just seems that way you to you as you dwell in that
paranoid fetid martyred delusion you call a life. Judges and school
administrators are there to protect the populace from the Neofascist,
hate-mongering, right-wing, ignorance inculcating group of Fundamentalist
liars who try to pawn off their own fallacious view of narrowly dogmatic,
and hallucinatory, morality as science. Against that we must be ever
vigilant. We cannot again allow the armies of the night, clad in their
tawdry Bible passages and threadbare beliefs, to usurp what they can never
attain justifiably; however they may lie, cheat or swindle." - ML
"I interact just fine with fellow human beings. What has yet to be
established is that you are human." - George Rudzinski
"I have no problems with my self esteem. I don't need any imaginary
friends to get me through life." - GR
"Fundies are dazed and confused. Like a duck hit on the head." - GR
"And nobody considers you to be stupid. You have shown that you are. No
need to get pissed at us because you decide to demonstrate that you are
stupid." - GR
"So don't practice sex. The gene pool won't miss your participation." - GR
"So me blowing your head off is okay? I'm beginning to see that such a
wound wouldn't be fatal." - GR
"Mark 16: 15-19. If you have the faith I have the cure." -GR
"Well God don't talk to me. And until you cough up the chemical formula
for the pills sitting on my monitor, God don't talk to you." - GR
"Hardly. My heathen premise is that screwing my wife on a Sunday morning
has top priority over wasting time listening to some snake-oil salesmen in
what ever church you wish to pick." - GR
"I so love to see Christians disagree. Why don't we lock the two of you in
a room with a loaded gun and the Bible? And the one that walks out alive
gets to be the "True" christian." - GR
"When you are on fire, no matter how many times you scream you are not on
fire, it doesn't put the flames out." - GR
"I personally believe religion is a mind killer and the most evil thing
that one man has ever foisted on another." - GR
"Many religious people think I'm the anti-Christ. I guess that would
qualify as an affiliation." - GR
"I am compelled to reply to this discussion. As a Christian, I feel that
people who are Gay or Lesbian are children of God, and that they like us
are loved by God. There is no mention to my knowledlge in either the Old
Testament or the New Testament that Homosexuality is accursed by God
whatsoever. Therefore, there is no Moral position based on the Bible in
Christianity which condemms it. True, there is no position either which
blesses it as well. Homosexuality exit, it is neither good or bad, as
these are our own values being imposed on it, and as such reflect our own
fears or ignorance. For instance, in the last 30 years Blacks, and Women
have achieved a level of equality unheard of centuries before, and what is
more true is that taking away their advances is blasphemous, and
unconiousable. Gay people are no different than you or I, they have
families that care for them, they work and contribute to our society
greatly. To deny them equal rights under the law, and morally, would be
the same as stepping back into time when tyrants ran the world and people
different from them were put to the sword. Any attack on Gay people is
just plain homophobia, and disguising it as morally wrong because the Rev.
Jerry Falwell(for example) condems it, is just plain stupidity. Gay people
want acceptance and respect as citizens, brothers, sisters, mothers, and
fathers, friends, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. I am glad that we live in a
age when people are shaking off old irrational fears and bigotry, even
though we have a long way to go before we can build a society, and world
based on love and respect. I just hope I will see it in my lifetime." -
John Oliver
"I advocate the murder of no one. However, I _do_ advocate referring to an
abortionist doctor as an infant murdering, satan-led monster, masquerading
as a doctor of medicine. Reason: He is one." - "Lon S. Mabon"
"Preston, you should know that when a person is saved (born again) they
become a new person in Christ. New means you start from the beginning. As
in Baby.." - David (2' 5") Cupp.
"Argument from popularity. There was a time when a hundred percent of the
world's population thought the world was flat (if they thought about it at
all). Did the make the world flat? Hardly! It make a hundred percent of
the people stupid, and nothing more." - Marilyn Burge
"Take your bible banging and shove it where the sun don't shine. It is a
farce and totally unnecessary to a worthwhile, virtuous life, if only you
were adult enough to know it." - MB
"This brings some strange mental images to mind. First we have Christ
blowing a column of fire out of his ass like a Saturn V. And then we have
the Virgin Mary strapped onto the side of a booster like the Space
Shuttle." -J.J. Hitt
"A flawed argument at best: an abusive parent who is only beating their
children can point at the parent who is sexualy abusing their children and
say that there is nothing wrong with their own actions because someone
else is doing worse. The sexually abusive parent can point to the parent
who kills their children. The parent who kills their children in turn can
point to someone who has killed more children than they have. If you only
compare yourself to the worst examples you can find, of course you will
always come out smelling like a rose. Please try to say something a
little less stupid in your next reply." - JJH
"The fundies that come through here start out by trying to display an
attitude of thoughtful discussion. When they find that their mythologies
are systematically disassembled and found to _be_ myths, coupled with the
friction specifically designed to remove their sugar coating, the actual
Christian under said sugar coating is exposed. And you can guess what's
under it. I couldn't begin to enumerate those who specifically stated that
they wished they could be around to watch the hurtful, educated HolySmoke
participants `burn in 'hell.'" - Fredric Rice
"'I am saved.' From what? Having to think for yourself?" - FR
"Are you just naked, or are you naked for Jesus?" -FR
"It's rather like having Freedie Kruger babysit children. Or asking Pee
Wee Herman to teach human sexuality. Or asking Jim Bakker to be treasurer
of the United States. Or asking Jim Jones to look over the refreshments."
- FR
"To believe in something without reason, that is to say, without reasonable
grounds, is superstition, whether it is a belief that a black cat crossing
your path will bring you bad luck, or God may pass judgement over your soul
and send you to Hell for your evils." -Michael Gothreau
"FUCK YOU ATHEIST! WHEN I FIND OUT WHERE YOU LIVE, I'LL DRIVE A PITCHFORK
THROUGH THAT EMPTY HEAD OF YOURS, YOU ARROGANT PIG! THE GOD OF ABRAHAM
DOES NOT STRIKE YOU BY LIGHTENING. SO GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ATHEIST
ANCIENT GREECE BOOK OF FALSE GODS, AND WAKE UP. WHEN YOU DIE, YOU'RE GOING
TO HELL, AND ARE GOING TO PERMANENTLY SUFFER DOWN THERE. AND I'LL BE
LAUGHING AT ALL THE ATHEIST BASTARDS IN THIS ECHO, WHEN I'M UP IN HEAVEN.
THERE IS NO WAY OUT OF HELL, JUST A WAY IN. AND THAT IS WHERE YOU ARE
HEADED! OH I SEE. ALABAMA? YOU BETTER WATCH OUT. EVERYONE FROM THE
SOUTH IS GUILTY OF INCEST. I GUESS THAT'S ANOTHER REASON WHY YOU ARE GOING
STRAIGHT TO HELL! THE TERMINAL BBS? OH, I UNDERSTAND. YOU ARE TERMANILLY
RETARTED, BECAUSE YOU ARE THE PRODUCT OF INCEST! HAVE A NICE DAY, LOSER
BOY." - Christopher Calabrese [Christian family values]
">> Not at all. Creationism has never been wrong. Why don't you just hang
a sign around your neck that says `STUPID'?" -Styx Allum (The Moderator)
"Debunking religions based upon hot air... is why this echo exists.
Exposing hot air, although it cannot be seen by the naked eye, is a simple
matter of having a theist speak into a balloon. When you pop the balloon,
there is no more substance than what was there before. (Other than perhaps
some saliva. Some theists froth more than others.)" - SA
"Omnipresence precludes any "separation from the body of Christ". One
cannot escape omnipresence. Therefor, your god would also have to exist
within Satan." - SA
"My clue, is Christ is coming, soon. Where are you going to be, when he
comes to take the believers, in Heaven or hell." - Marguerite Kendall
"If I was a satanist, humanist, or an atheist, it would be no problem. But
because I stand for Christ, I get jumped on, name called, etc. There have
been posts, on satanism, and humanism. But nothing happens, to the person
who posts those messages. That person gets praise heaped upon him. But
when I posted something on christianisty, adverse reaction happen." - MK
"Perhaps you would send some [newspaper articles] my way...yeah...I know
it's like the rest of your life...one big circus of lies." - Ron
Stringfellow
"One thing at a time. Answer the question, godling." - RS
"Peter, I know what pi r2 is and have since the beginning. . . and I am
sure that god took that into account." - RS
"Faith in yourself will not help when the problem is beyond your control."
- Steve Bedard
"This ain't the harmony echo, dipshit." - Robert Curry
"If the theists all shut up, the gods would be speechless." - RC
"Funny how the gods tend to share the Political views of those who speak
for them." - RC
"Creation 'Science' is to science what Rap 'Music' is to music: a lot of
noise and utterly incoherent." - David Rice
"It is like arguing with a lump of shit. The longer one argues with shit,
the sillier one appears, and the shit ain't listening." - DR
"In response to entreaties from around the world, the leadership of Iran
has announced that it will deal with Salman Rushdie in a more Christian
fashion. But they have to find a place for the stake where it won't set an
oil well on fire." - DR (It's a JOKE, bozo)
"Any god who was elected a god by majority vote, like Jesus, must have a
severe identity crisis." - DR
"Speed kills. Wrapping your automobile around a concrete bridge pylon
probably voids the warrantee." - DR
"I think Ms. [Linda "UN at Waco"] Thompson has some valid points.
Honestly." - DR
"You're one complete pile of shit, and a bigoted one, too. Even your god
damnable bible says "created man in his own image". And you have the
audacity to say that an innocent child does not have the right to be saved
by your god damned god?" - Dan Ceppa
"I predict that you will take a breath of fresh air and actually take
another. Hey!!! Why the fuck are you turning blue on me???? Well, one
less fundy to woryy about......" - DC
"Mankind didn't progress as far as it has by saying, "God said that men
can't fly" but by breaking those laws and flying. What is going on around
us now is an attempt to do just the same thing that the Romans used xianity
for: To keep people ignorant, ignorant as to who they really are and are
far they can go." - DC
"You're incapable of any rational response, so why start now?" - DC
"Please don't apologize. It makes me want to taunt you a second time." -
Shelby Sherman
"We treat fundies and apologists with appropriat counseling in this forum
- Up the side of the head with the lug wrench of truth." - SS
"By-the-way, Mary is still a slut and your precious Jesus is long dead and
rotted in the grave. I've profaned your Savior, now what do you intend to
do about it?" - SS
"Tell me, why does God need to prove himself? He is based on belief. You
are to believe, not to question! God performs miracles every day." - Steve
Lew
"Let's face it, matters of spirituality have to do with the spirit, not the
intellect." - Carl Schulz
"This echo is abomination. This echo is also filled with those who will
one day bend their knee to Jesus Christ and call him Lord, whether they
like it or not! And to think how much fun I'm gonna have fun watching you
say it." - Martin Riley
"The fact that a Jewish hasid lived in the 1st century CE in the country of
either Galilee or Judaea, was very charismatic, a little brilliant and a
little looney is not in question." - Simon Ewins
"If God is "infinite and eternal and the Creator of all" then God must be
the creator of evil. Since God created evil, the concept of evil must
have, at least, passed through his mind and, further, since "whatever is
good is good because it is consistent with his mind" the reverse must also
be true. That is, "whatever is evil is evil because it is consistent with
his mind". This makes God directly responsible for all of the evil that
exists since it was "created from his mind". This requires that evil
itself must be "consistent with his mind". So, is the mind of god
predominantly good or evil? The amount of evil in the world (according to
Christian theology) far outweighs the amount of good. This would indicate
that God created more evil than he did good. This would indicate that the
"mind" of God is predominantly evil. Why would one wish to worship a God
who's "mind" is mostly evil? More interesting, however, is your
anthropomorphizing of god. You assign God a "mind". How do you know that
God has a "mind"?" - SE
"Is this the depth of your naivete, or do we have more to look forward to?"
- SE
"Jesus made claims that have been proven to be wrong... Mark 9:1, Matthew
16:28, Matthew 23:36, Luke 9:27, Matthew 24:21- 34, Matthew 10:23... all
claiming foreknowledge of his return, all wrong. Gee, maybe he's dead."
- SE
"Lies are hard to keep straight in an era without sophisticated
communications, it would seem." - SE
"Are you looking to win the award for most stupid question? Setting aside
for a moment that rocks are hard what would be the result of one dropping
on your head? You can't 'set aside' an essential element of _anything_ and
expect to find an answer that bears any relationship to reality." - SE
"To accept as truth what the gospels (which were written after Paul's
letters and were designed to support his ideas) say about Jesus, is to
accept as truth what Goebbels says about Hitler. To accept as truth what
Paul says about himself as supported by what the author of Acts says about
Paul, is to accept what Hitler says about himself as supported by what
Goebbels says about Hitler as truth." - SE
"Christianity has nothing to be proud of. Any good that it may have done
has been completely offset by the perpetuation of racial and religious
hatred that it has fostered and encouraged." - SE
"Paul only quotes Jesus twice. Why would that be if he is basing his
entire theology on the life and work and resurrection of Jesus?" - SE
"Anybody that brags about hearing voices in his/her head concerns me."
- Steve Quarrella
"We have no interest in "getting high" on your drugs, as our lives are just
fine without having to be "saved" from the affliction you are selling. If
getting high on Jesus is your bag, that's fine...so long as you do not ask
others to inhale, we'll get along just fine. But if you tell people time
and time again that they not only suffer from your affliction but also that
they need your drug, you're going to be treated LIKE a drug dealer. You
will be harassed to no end, cursed, spat upon, and every other
inconvenience you can think of, until such a time that you take your drugs
elsewhere." - SQ
"God told me the Book of Mormon was true." - Conrad Knudson
"Needless to say, the LDC's birth-rates are just rediculous... I'm for
compulsary sterilization, muh-self." - Jeff Freeman
"I missed being god by one vote!" - Odin
"Ciya is a blasphemous tool of your cunning." - Jesse Jones
"What you call a refusal to answer was a refusal to respond" - JJ
"When we believe that our individual will is the superior force in the
cosmos we deny the harmony which creation itself seeks. Jesus's struggle
in Gesthemane shows us that there is a will to be served beyond our own
self-interests. . ." - JJ
"BUT... if I told you that 1+1=1, as idiotic as it seems, until I am
proven wrong, I am right." - Zach Webb
"Did you ever see 'Capricorn One,' the movie? O.J. Simpson was the star.
Proved the entire government space program is a hoax. They're finally
going after O.J. because he helped unmask the space hoax." - Charles
Johnson, president of the Flat Earth Research Society International
[Shamelessly snagged from Usenet]
"My my, I have the false Christian scum (and their infidel, reprobate
brethren), the Sodomites and the general filth of FidoNet all ganging up on
me." - Steve Winter
"Aids cures queers." - SW
"I wish I was their to light the ovens." - William Stone
"Do you imagine that sexuality began with mammals? Cockroaches are male
and female, as you would notice if you paid any attention to your
congregation." - Don Martin
"And they're the ones who keep saying to us "why are you so ANGRY?" At
least I am not so angry that I have to deny rights to other people out of
hand." - DM
"Fundies can only be secure in their faith when everybody agrees with
their idiotic notions; therefore they feel impelled to convert whom they
can and shoot the rest in the back." - DM
"It isn't all that bad: they are only required to love their neighbor "as
themselves". Given the degree of self-loathing we see demonstrated by
christians around here (if it were not for the existence of god, I would
be committing murder, arson and rape on a daily basis), they probably
already love their neighbors as they do themselves without working up a
sweat. That love, however, may leave something to be desired." - DM
"Who ignores the likes of Paul Hill, a committed Christian "trying to make
a difference"? Who ignores the various "Family" groups in Colorado and
Oregon, busy trying to drum homosexuals out of the human race? They are
certainly "trying to make a difference."Who ignores the Christians in
Kentucky who check `naughty' books out of the library and do not return
them? Who can deny that they are "trying to make a difference." Who
ignores the friendly folks in Virginia, overwhelmingly Christians, who seek
to place an admitted felon and perjurer, Oliver North, in the U.S. Senate
where he can work his magic on all of us? Are they not "trying to make a
difference." Who ignores the "stealth" candidates in California, who work
at getting elected to school boards by concealing their Christian agenda by
evasion, silence or outright lying, so that they can impose that agenda on
the young from a position of power. They, too, are "trying to make a
difference." I only wish we COULD ignore the Christians "trying to make a
difference," but we dare not turn our backs on the vile bastards." - DM
"Maggie's echo bombs of religious tracts probably violates the copyright of
some fundy without giving such credit, but piss on him--it's only a fundy,
after all." - DM
"It has long been my impression that most of you buzzards would not bother
to be christians if you did not suppose that heaven was composed of
bleacher seats facing hell." - DM
"But in India, something else is going on. Females are not valued. Only
males are. Wanna bet that when those boys end up competing for the only
unmarried girl in town that HER value won't soar? And theirs, at least so
far as the gene pool is concerned, will drop. Such gender-specific
abortion is an excellent way to reduce the overall population, but it
doesn't really begin to operate until the next generation." - DM
"I do not expect, of course, that my ridicule will make fundies think--
they appear to be pretty well proof against that horror--but it may have
that effect on the real audience around here, the silent lurkers who have
not yet given their minds over to the Swaggarts, Robertsons and Falwells."
- DM
"Certainly, and than am I: however, he specified "fundemental Christian",
which DOES rather drain the pool of available intellect." -DM
"Well for all of you who criticize Mr. Robertson, I can say this. Judge
yourself before judging others. You might make fun of us fundies now, but
we are mobilizing spiritually, politically, and to what worries you the
most financially. We Christians are sick and tired of being accused of
wrongdoing and ridiculed. Lets face it, there are more of us than you.
And we intend to take back the Government that Christians founded. And cut
off your grants that supply some of you with the money to wage war on us.
Organizations like the Christian Coalition scare you and thats good cause
We are going to put you and the evolutionist garbage you try to push on us
on the run." - Joe Savelli
"Okay. I'll retract the story about the man who was arrested for praying
in the Florida restaurant. But only because you and others are hung up on
it. This should clear the way for what I really want to prove. That is
the Historicity of Jesus. So, Robert, you have my retraction for what it's
worth. (Not that it's a lie.)" - JS
"Oh well with homosexuals pounding on church doors and screaming to the
occupants "we want your children, we want your children". It just proves
my point that homosexuality is evil. Not to mention that it spreads
disease...." - JS
"Christian Coalitions membership in 1992 300,000. In 1993 900,000 and
still growing. We are going to invade all political and educational
institutions, take them back from the liberal/socialist invaders." -JS
"Libralism and humanism IS evil. Both are destined to fail" -JS
"I see now why Jesus said the Jews' father is the devil. Beware! The Jew
is the antichrist." - Keith Baxter / Larry Rollins / Gerald Norris / Jack
Roberts / Frank Waring
"If 'Jesus' does come to Earth- is it the first coming (as per Jewish
tradition), second (Xian), or third (Mormon)? I wonder- and I hope he
lands feet first on ALL televangelists. (Preying on fear sickens me!!!)" -
Rachael Roth
"Take that piece of paranoid drivel and, print it out, soak it in gasoline,
then shove it up your ass and light it. Have a nice day, motherfucker." -
C. J. Henshaw
"What you call senseless blathering is actually a very fun past time for
those of us who like shoving lit fireworks up fundies' assholes."
- Coridon Henshaw
"Matt, do you suppose incest is why we have fundamentalists?" - Liz
Saunders
"We already have the necessary proof - the Scriptures. God has already
told us what happened. Why do we need further proof?" - Derek Williams
"What scares the shit out of me is that here in southern Tennessee (and
probably many other areas) the psychological clinics are LINKING religious
beliefs and psychological well-being. That's kind of like giving someone
AIDS to cure sexual dysfunction." - Tim Bennett
"EH> [...] Btw, change your initials. they make you look canadian." -
Martin Goldberg
"Texas is much better than the State of the Perpetually Dead Elvis.
Jesus, the smell is atrocious. Did something die up there?" - MG
"The Theory of Gravity does not address these either. Am I to believe that
my computer will soon head for the ceiling?" - MG
"i read this. It is full of nice stories, emotional bullshit, and a host
of other devices that might fool a very stupid person. It is not,
however, evidence." - MG
"See you in Hell.... (I won't be there, but I'll be able to see YOU
there.)" - Doug Brewer
"Welfare is cancelled, all women come home (except single women who
obviously must support themselves somehow.) What happens? 1) A tremendous
amount of tax money is freed up. 2) Men fill the now vacant positions,
thus reducing or possibly eliminating unemployment. 3) Children have one
parent home all the time; thus they are raised by their parents instead of
daycare. I think the advantages of this are obvious. In contrast, look at
what we have instead...." - DB
"You do not understand the essence of Satan, or of Satanism. You do not
have to worship Satan to be a Satanist. Satanists believe that everyone is
their own God. You need only worship yourself, and you are practicing
Satanism." -DB
"First of all, innocence is subjective. Who is truly innocent? Just a
question... Second, anyone who ever died at God's hand (in the Bible) died
for a reason. Third, Christians view death as a beginning, not an end.
So, to die (say in a city that was destroyed by God's judgement) wouldn't
pose that big a problem for me. There isn't that much worth hanging around
here for, anyway." -DB
"Modern technology is merely evidence that h. sapiens sapiens is not all
irrevocably stupid and that progress is made in spite of our most earnest
efforts to forestall it at times." - Preston Simpson
"There's no convincing a mind that is not only closed but has been bricked
over and had steel plate welded in place over it." - PS
"Your god seems to fear questioning, and the authority figures in your
religion discourage questioning far more than they encourage it. Such is
a definite sign of an oppressive and dangerous organization." - PS
"If you take two lions and two sheep aboard the ark, it's a cinch bet that
the lions will probably eat the sheep or some other herbivore upon
release." - PS
"You've basically said to the world "I don't understand why some things
happen, so God must have done it!" That's silly. If you don't know why
something happened, try to find out. If you can't, leave it at that and go
on with your life." -PS
"I think you're full of shit. I wasn't in it for gain. I was in it
because I believed. I was in it because I had faith. And when my faith
was shaken to its foundation, nobody came to help, nobody answered my
prayers, nothing. Your God, if he exists, is the most callous deity to
ever be worshipped, bar none. And his followers exemplify this
beautifully." - PS
"We've explained it to you at least three times, in clear English. You
claimed a degree in English; I suggest that you return to the institution
that granted it and demand a refund, because it's for damned sure that you
didn't learn anything there." - PS
"How about people who just don't care? Bipolar thinking is ridiculous when
applied in this fashion to humanity, since life is not always a clear-cut
case of "us" against "them." Such thinking breeds paranoia, distrust,
animosity, and all sorts of unharmonious things. What would your god
think of that?" - PS
"`In God we trust' - David Koresh" - Sunjester
"Put THAT in your Bible and smoke it." - Stephen Green
"I find it strangely pleasing to know my thoughts and actions cause you so
much grief." - SG
"Sex education classes in our public schools are promoting incest."
- Jimmy Swaggart
"Describe, if you will, what kind of phony God you would come up with if
you were to create a phony God and start your own religion. Ask yourself
what kind of traits you'd *have* to give it. Visible or invisible? etc.
Then, compare the result to the popular Christian God." - Mike Prather
"The problem is that some folks are so open minded that their brains fall
out. Then some really bizaare ideas get stuffed into the opening, at which
time they slam and bolt the barn door after the horse has run off, and
never let anything else in or out. Then they come to Holysmoke and start
posting stuff about universal minds thinking with pilot waves and dead
presidents rising and orgasmic saviors and denying sunlight and quoting
winos like Hoyle and Schroeder." - "Hector Plasmic"
"He just reinterprets whatever's at hand to fit what he wants it to say,
carefully discarding any bits that get in the way as "parables" and then
reinterpreting them, too. Finally, ignore any more logical explanations
and conflicting facts, and -- voila -- instant fundy, just add flood water
and bake in hell to taste." - HP
"It's laughable, really. The fundies claim "gods exist!" When you ask
them if they have any evidence that gods exist, they eventually get around
to saying "no, but you can _sense_ that gods exist." When you ask them
for evidence for that statement, you usually get "I just know it." And
when you ask them how it is they "just know" you usually get "you can
_sense_ that gods exist."" - HP
"I'm sorry, Mikey, did you run across some evidence that xtianity is true?
Would you mind sharing it with us? Or are you just full of shit as
usual?" - HP
"Time: Here and now. Surviving members of David Koresh's Branch
Davidians report seeing David the Koresh, Lamb of God, alive and
preaching. They're widely regarded as nuts. The Enquirer and similar
yellow tabloids pick up the tale and begin printing stories about people
seeing the Koresh hither and yon performing miracles. The stories are
widely regarded as garbage -- except for a few ignorant souls who also
believe Elvis and JFK are still running around. A few years pass, the
stories of Koresh sightings still crop up from time to time. Henry
Kissinger has died, and John Prewett committed suicide rather than admit
he was a false prophet. The Branch Davidians stick to their story, saying
that the Koresh has ascended to heaven to be with God. They pick up
followers. The church grows slowly but steadily. People still think
they're nuts, but a few eyebrows are being raised. The fundamentalist
xtian televangelists begin screaming about false prophets and followers of
the devil when they mention the Koreshians. A few more years pass. Most
of the Branch Davidians have died of old age. Their followers, still
growing, set down the tales they've been told about the Koresh's
sacrificial death to atone for the sins of mankind and subsequent
resurrection and ascension to heaven and begin calling themselves
Koreshians. A prominent televangelist who'd been preaching against the
Koreshians is in an automobile accident; when he recovers, he claims to
have seen the Koresh and been converted (saved). He tours the country
preaching at Koreshian churches, howls his message over the airwaves.
Membership in the Church of Koresh jumps sharply as many people leave the
fundamentalist churches to become Koreshians. A few more years pass. The
televangelist, now an old man, is assassinated. Membership again jumps
sharply, spurred by his martyrdom. The stories set down years before are
assembled and appended to the King James bible (oddly, written using "thee"
and "thou"s). The stories contain contradictions and obvious fallacies, but
they're accepted as dogma by the Koreshians, who interpret over them and/or
call them "proof of the truth of the writings." Approximately two thousand
years pass -- it's 1995 AK (After Koresh). The Koreshian religion is held,
at least superficially, by 1/3rd of the world's 10 billion population
(there'd be a lot more people, but the Koreshians exterminated a lot of
heretics and unbelievers over a thousand years before during the Second
Dark Age). Mikey Hardy's descendant says, in a room full of atheists, "And
we have evidence that David Koresh rose from the dead." Most everyone
present considers him a nut, and farts in his general direction. Mikey's
descendant screams 'IS NOT!'" - HP
"Moreover, according to the fundies here, we're guilty until "saved." So,
to extend Kenny's "breaking the law" analogy, it'd need to be a law
against breathing, or some other activity that humans can't help doing.
In fact, I offer this analogy which seems much to the point: A king
declared that anyone breathing air not bought from the king's air bottling
plant would be thrown into the dungeon and tortured forever. The king
offered simple terms -- all you had to do to pay for your bottles of air
was fall to your knees, grovel a bit, and thank the king for giving you
air (the king had previously allowed the president of the air bottling
plant to rape and kill his daughter the princess to pay the price for
everyone's air, but actually she wore a full-body condom and faked her
death so she suffered very little if at all). Now, an atheist might say
that the king was full of shit and was damning his people by the thousands
for no reason at all, but a theist might say that the people were damning
themselves by refusing to partake in the king's almost-freely-given gift of
a bottle of air." - HP
"We don't hate you, little fundy. We feel sorry for you." -HP
"Occam's Razor cut your foot off again." -HP
"Now go shoot yourself. For Christ or not, it doesn't matter. Don't
forget to repent first." -HP
"What an assinine, baseless assertion. Just because Mikey has no evidence,
you must be intentionally refusing to believe him." -HP
"Are you allergic to the truth or something, Mikey?" -HP
"Fundy motto: no sense makes sense." -HP
"Yep. I agree. All bibles should be put under rocks. Big rocks. In the
ocean. On another planet." - Brian C. Kolacy
"Women do have a place in God's kingdom...BELOW that of men." - Jeff Pruett
"Back to the talking snakes and Adam & Eve again, eh Jeff? The entire
story is pure mythology as you well know but won't admit. It has no more
validity than the myths about Zeus, Hercules or Mithras."
- John Musslewhite
"So why don't you guys kill yourselves and get the hell outta our hair?"
- David Worrell
"I'm beginning to think Mormon churches have brain vacuums install in the
pews. The congregation comes in, sits down, and tubes are inserted up
their asses. Any unnecessary brain matter is then sucked out while they
listen rapturously to the sermon." - DW
"So you feel that it is our *duty* to bash gays in order to prevent
`experimentation'? You disgust me. Maybe we should beat the hell out of
Christians in order to prevent people from experimenting with
Christianity?" - DW
"I'm prejudiced against bigots, fascists, tyrants, and idiots. It just so
happens that many Christians fall into one or more of these categories."
- DW
"I am all too willing to believe that you're just as stupid as you come
across on this echo." - DW
"Do you take groveling lessons or does it come naturally to you?" - DW
"Atheism is MORALLY BANKRUPT because, as Sartre and Nietzsche have
demonstrated, without God as the universal reference point to distinguish
good from evil, there are no moral absolutes. Man becomes the measure of
all things, including his own ethics and morality." - Roger Griffith
"I agree with you there legislating faith is like trying to legislate
agains racism it sounds nice but it just don't work..." - Robert Rice
"God is Powerful...NO other so-called "GOD" could stand one chance against
My Powerful God....Bite me All you LOw-Life Non-Christians!!"
- Jason Bridges
">> WE AS CHRISTIANS HAVE GOTTEN AWAY FROM THE BASIC TRUTH OF CHRIST AND >>
HAVE DEVELOPED OUR OWN THINKING.
Great Scott! Some people are thinking for themselves. Where could such
heretical behavior lead!" - Unknowns
"What I'm doing is typing truth. It is simple to ridicule and ask for
evidence of something someone does not believe, I could take the same tact.
You cannot prove any theory, that's why they are known as theories. What
you offer is not debate. Look the word up in the dictionary. I am here to
say JESUS SAVES." - David Lewellyn
"I do not hate anyone. I recognize homosexuality for what it is. It is an
illness and depravity. At one time this was recognized as truth but as
homosexuals were thrust into the public eye by the AIDS epidemic and the
popular figures who came out of the closet, and the liberal climate created
by the press, homosexuality was labeled an "alternative life style". It is
"popularly believed" that a flight attendant from Canada introduced AIDS
into the U.S. According to researchers he had sex with several dozen men.
Other cases of AIDS did not show up until later among the non homosexual
populace." -DL
"No gay person could ever reproduce unless he were straight in some way." -
Ralph "The sky is blue!" Jansen
"Why can evolution be FACT when there is absolutely NOTHING backing it up?
... (Because this is science and in science there is no such thing as a
fact.)" - RJ
"If there is, then by definition evolution is most highly improbable since
the each species is *supposed* to die off after it evolves." -RJ
"As for 6000 years, there is quite a bit of evidence that supports that
idea. So, maybe he really isn't that stupid. Maybe he knows something you
don't." -RJ
"Some group has said that they actually discovered the ark, and that NASA
has gotten behind them on this 100%... Don't you dare quote me on
that..." -RJ
"I made a report to the class on Creation Vs. Evolution . . . You know who
won . . . Creation . . . evlution is too complicated!!!" - Russ Offord
[elipses in original]
"The magnetic field. Solid hydrogen is a superconductor, and Earth's
magnetic field continues to wane -- back then it would have been many,
many times stronger. And so on." - Leon Brooks
"You have no sense of humor. Typical atheist faire. Learn to live with it
(your dark dismal world, that is, humorless, Godless, hellbound schnook)"
- John Prewett
"May Jesus continue to let you live. Long enough to get your head out of
your ass." -JP
"This echo is going to be used to greatly spread faith in Christ. There
are going to be some fanatic HolySmoke anti-Christers that are going to be
transformed into rabid Christers. - JP
"I predict / prophecy in Jesus name that: John F. Kennedy will publicly
reappear, amaze the world, take world power, and is in fact the "beast"
of the Revelation." - JP
"Some HolySmokers are putting God on trial. Therefore God exist." - JP
"`god' _does_ exist. Because the rules of physics always stay the same."
- Matt Unterberg
"I'm easily amused, just give me a gun and a field full of fundamentalists"
- Unknown
"(sorry about that - this is my blatant attempt to get a quote in the
HOLYSMOKE.FAQ) <g>" - Mike Perry
"Actually, it is, Kelsey. Theistic evolution is not the same as
atheistic-materialistic evolution. Yet, for some reason, you choose to
use theistic evolution as a rebuttal to my statement that "natural
atheistic-materialistic macro-evolution is dependant on life starting
via a naturalistic-atheistic-materialistic mechanism for biochemical
evolution." I'll explain the difference to you. Atheistic-materialistic
evolution is characterized by the belief that there is no Creator G-d,
that all that we observe in the universe is the result of the laws of
nature acting on matter and energy, plus random and/or chance encounters
of matter/energy, over a period of approximately 11-14 Billion years. In
order for Atheistic-materialistic evolution to be true, each stage of the
evolution of the universe (From the origin of the Big Bang, to the origin
of particles, to the origin of stars and planets, to the origin of life
from non-life, to the origin of the species) must have developed via the
laws of nature acting on matter and energy, plus opportune random
encounters of matter/energy, over a period of approximately 11-14 Billion
years. If any any one of these stages we can demonstrate that just one of
these steps could not have occurred in this manner, then we have
disproved Atheistic-materialistic evolution. The Atheist world view falls
apart." - Arthur Biele
"Well, I'm 23, though I've had people mistake me for 30. It's my aura of
wisdom and maturity, not my receding hairline. Really it is."
- Aaron Boyden
"No. However, there is life before death. It probably deserves more of
your attention than you've been giving it." -AB
"And you say I'm in a "death cult"?? "Mass starvation"?? Point "*.666"?
You can't use "666", your an atheist, you don't believe in those things,
remember?? Remember, the Bible isn't true, therefore the Anti-christ and
his number 666 is a myth and doesn't exist? For someone who doesn't
believe the Bible, you sure model yourself and your symbols after what's
in it, even if it's the "bad guys". Of course the "bad guys" don't exist
if the Bible isn't true." - Phillip Windell
"You see, without God, a person can become good, or noteworthy, or
famous, or do good things such as heal the sick, teach the ignorant,
protect the young, and all for the simplest reasons or no reason at all
other than the personal happiness derived from such actions. However, if
there _is_ a God, then there is no reason to become a doctor, as God
either wants that person sick or God would cure him. There is no reason
to teach the ignorant, as with a snap of the fingers, God could impart
any degree of knowledge or wisdom to that person and since that hasn't
happened, God must want that person ignorant. If God does exist, there
is absolutely no reason whatsoever to do anything for anyone. Anything
you could do to help someone is meaningless as God could help them so
much better if He wanted them to be helped. Anything you could do to
better yourself becomes pointless as God could have done it for you if He
wanted you to be a better person. Indeed, if God did exist, one could
only do one of two things: either totally ignore God and any of His
actions, or become a totally mindless slave to God's word. Either way,
the result is the same: complete meaninglessness to anything and
everything one does." - Kelsey Bjarnason
"You seem to be very hot on what the Bible says; I find it hard to believe
that anyone who cannot write a simple sentence correctly is actually
capable of ascertaining the deeper meanings of anything more complex than
a matchbook cover." - KB
"One might look at how the Christians fare in here. Do you have any
idea how often we have one come in and the first thing they do is start
whining about the language in here? How would you like it if someone
went to your house and told you how to speak there? Of course, the next
step for the average Christian here is to start posting all the "great
truths" which "prove God"; again, without having bothered to read enough
mail to realize that _every_ argument they propose has been done to
death already. No, they insist upon believing that in all of human
history, they and they alone have the final proof of God. As often as
not, the next stage is when they start defining terms to suit
themseleves. "Atheism" means "anti-God". "Evolution" involves the Big
Bang. And of course, they almost invariably end up resorting to such
silliness as telling us that we "hate God" because we fear "it might be
true" or that "deep in our hearts we know God is real". The point here
is this: the Christians are treated with the respect they earn. For
most, this means treating them like a spoiled and slightly retarded
six-year-old. For the odd few, it means calm and rational discussion.
It is _entirely_ up to the Christian how he is treated in HolySmoke."
- KB
"You go out of your way to insist that atheism is a religion, which can
be for no purpose but to inflict your personal mindset on those who are
not so afflicted." - KB
"If you believe it, you don't know it. If you know it, you don't need
to believe it. Since you obviously haven't a clue one way or the other,
why should anyone listen to what you say?" - KB
"They are Christians of Borg, they have been assimilated. They will
speak no opinions of their own, only those approved by the Christian Borg
Collective. To think for oneself is to risk eternal punishment."
- Thomas Mccullock
"No shit, Sherlock. But that isn't the case, and there are plenty (too
many) heterosexual breeders in this world that are keeping this planet
(over)populated. What does it matter if a small percentage of the world's
population isn't reproducing? Goat knows we don't need any more people
breeding like rabbits in this world..." - Drew Webber
"Remember the man arrested in the Florida restaurant? He was praying that
his noodles would stop multiplying, but a Satan-powered JFK flew out of
the stratosphere on a bear that couldn't catch fish and arrested him.
MISTER Kissinger stood on a milk crate of flaming foetuses and tried to
prove it with every opening bud, but the solid hydrogen mentioned in Luke
16:31 destroyed his hard disk fourteen days later and erased the Culinary
History of Aviation. He goes on trial December 1." - Jason Rosendale
"First off I am not religious, I am a Christian. Second I did not give up
on it, I refused to take part in a mock trail of God." - Kenneth Mcabee
"What your missing David, is the most bible believing Christains do not
question God. Why does he require blood for the forgiveness of sin? What
does it matter? It does, the bible says it, we believe it." - KM
"You still haven'g gotten have you? Someone who believes in the Bible also
believes that you do not need evidence, but rather faith." - KM
"First if the Christians were doing thier job right noone would die never
hearing the "Good News". If they did not hearing then by my bible I have to
say that they are condemned. And that we the Christians did not do as we
were commanded." - KM
"you a answer on your question simply due to the fact that I am not God,
and do not have the capability to punish my kids for eternity. I cannot
give you an answer, I do not know what I would do if I could punish them
for eternity." - KM
"Just because I am willing to debate Christianity does not mean that I am
here to learn any truth contrary to my beliefs." - KM
Let me put it this way, even if I agreed with your statement that God is
an unrepentant barbarian, he is still God. I still have the choice to
make, either I believe in him and go to heaven, or I don't and go to hell.
With those two choice, I don't care if God is the most hateful thing ever
created, I still would not want to go to hell, and I would still believe
in him." - KM
"God will be coming soon. He will tryumph over any gods that other people
have made. Like the god of money...etc. In the end you will be judged by
him. He will make you accountable for every thing you did." - Alex Sousa
"You can't blame them. They can't think. They are a result of a
mechanistic organization of matter. They don't have thoughts any more
than a computer has thoughts. Their "thoughts" are nothing but
mechanistic processes. Hmmm, they probably don't even have
conciseness." - Andrew Cummins, refering to non-Christians.
"Hitler believed in big government. Hitler didn't believe that human life
had inherent value, thus he supported such things as abortion.
Considering many factors, Hitler seems a lot like a modern American
liberal." - AC
"Don't be a liberal dupe. Even most heterosexuals with AIDS 'earned'
it... but it's still is a fag disease." - AC
"Then maybe the poor should either avoid being poor or avoid behaving in
a way that makes them feel a need to avoid responsibility with something
they can't afford." - AC
"She prayed and asked (*demanded* - she's a tough lady) for the life of
this little one back. After 15 minutes or so a crowd was gathered (you
can picture it) and she saw some police out of the corner of her eye
starting to approach. But the people pressed around her so, that the
police couldn't get through. After a half hour or more of continuing to
pray the baby gave a sneeze and came back to life." - Peter Sawyer
"That's a lot better than denying the Truth just because you're afraid of
it. The more I read from you and the others like you in this echo, the
more I know my faith is true. Thanks." - Tony Grisier
"Didn't you know that *we* are Satan?" - Gord Magill
"I know this is only second hand, but our local TV news did a two or
three part series on parents killing their own children. The incident in
Union was not as isolated as we would like to think and it may be a good
working hypothosis. I don't remember the statistics that they gave, but
the point was that the rate has been on a marked increase, beginning in
the mid 70s. Guess when Roe v. Wade came down. The news didn't provide
the corellation, history did. Now, I realize that its easy to lie with
statistics. Even when you have a corellation, that doesn't prove a
hypthosis, it merely supports it. If I can find the numbers I'll post
them soy we don't have to go on just my remembrance of the local news."
- David Hatfield
"I have never accepted the Ideal personally that gays have any rights and
i never will." - Don Ward
"Heres my judgment ,you are a desolate little old man who's afraid to
leave your little xt/pc. I get on this "echo" because of all the fools
on it, but you live on this "echo"." - DW
"I think your under a lot of "STRESS". Maybe you need an _assistant
moderator_, one that would make this _echo_ appeal to all types of people.
Therefore I'll make a "kind" gesture of you letting me run this bias
_echo_ for a month or so. So I can help you achieve a respectable "echo",
for the good of all." - DW
"Adults do not allow others to speak their own minds in any fashon they
want, Ive not seen that anywhere. Adults do let Children ( somewhat)
learn the language but it has appeared to me thru many of your post that
you do have a good sense of language so I can only presume that you are
very much an adult." - John Reynolds
"... "How talk you, yes. That, do we. Idiot, fucking, you are.": Yoda"
- Tagline
"Considering the Christian views on abortion and assisted suicide, my
guess is that once you accept this "gift" of eternal life, you can never
give it back. Seems like you might be making a mistake that could
literally haunt you forever by accepting Jesus Christ as your personal
lord and saviour, especially since Christians seem to think that just
anything that is fun to do is a sin."
- "Captain Fuck"/Dan Baldwin/"Dr. James Robertson"
"`Aboard ship take thou the SEED of life' I am refering to the SEED of
all life of any species. Only one thing did NOAH need to take two of, on
the ARK, of EVERY living creature that walked upon the EARTH, and would
easily be able to do so with the technology of the -GODS-. Also buy
taking the SEED of life of every living creature he could get two of each
on that small ARK. The SEED of life being refered to is, GENES. The GENES
of a male and female of every creature would have accomplished the task
nicely, would it not? With this you no longer have an argument of not
enough room to house two of every creature, food to feed them for more
than 6 months, etc...." - Barry "Suspended Animation" Laminack
"He will not be there for you. If you have not accepted his lordship over
your life, then you are at war with him and he is at war with you. That
is not to say that he is not willing to forgive, but to stand in the place
of God's judgement is a fearful place to be. What is right and wrong?
Where does the idea come from? If you go by feelings, your feelings
change from day to day. Do your morals change from day to day? Without
God there is no right and wrong. There must be a reference point outside
of yourself upon which to base your value judgements. What is your
reference point? Without one you are incapable of determining for yourself
what is right and what is wrong." - Unknown fundi
Any evidence I have would be meaningless, because your point of view would
prevent the obvious conclusion. I cannot *prove* to you the existence of
God just as you cannot prove to me the non-existence of God. God has
proven himself to me through the power he has shown in changing my life.
Only the power of God can change a man's life and set him free from the
burden of sin. Not that any Christian will ever be sinless, but the
assurance of knowing the the penalty for your sin has been erased changes
your life completely. I cannot prove to you the existence of God, but if
you accept what he says about himself and about you in his Word the Bible,
then everything makes complete sense." - Timothy Hartley
"A recent court case acquitted Donald Napora of endangering the lives of
the public by knowingly having unprotected anal intercourse (otherwise
known as sodomy), while knowing he was HIV positive. Sodomy, once a crime
against the state, is now not only tolerated and accepted, but actually
promoted in many of our public school sex education programs, in spite of
the fact that it is the leading cause of infection of the AIDS virus. For
a society that is as safety conscious as any in the world, this is a gross
contradiction. Does this bother you?" - Alan Kern
"Christians envying Pagans and wiccans? There's nothing to envy. Your god
was defeated by the blood of Jesus 2000 years ago, and he's only living on
borrowed time. You're following a loser, the biggest one in history of the
universe." - AK
"Science/archeology have often, and still do change their conclusions as
they continue to find new evidence." - AK
"Is AIDS a plague sent by God to judge homosexuals? "Likewise also the
men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one
another, men with men committing what is shameful, and recieving in
themselves the penalty of their error which was due"Rom.1:27 You don't
have to be a brain surgeon to figure these things out. Why is it only the
Christians who can discern the signs of the times? Because they have the
mind of Christ, and unbelievers have only their own." - AK-47
"And, BTW, if you'll read that bible you're always thumping, you'll find
that Jesus was a liberal. He hung around with poor people and social
outcasts, he helped the poor, he said that it's easier for a camel to go
through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven. But
then again, you have your head so far up your ass that you don't notice
these things." - Quentin Fai
"I detect the pot calling the fridge black. If there's anyone who's been
soundly disemboweled, it's you. You seem to be too stupid to notice,
though." - QF
"When Jesus comes again, and I believe it will be soon, there will be no
need for Democrats, Republicans or political representatives whatsoever.
Not only this, but the Constitution/Civil Rights Amendments and othersuch
 will be out of place as well. For we who are his children will live under
the rule of a true Theocracy. We will be his people, and he will be our
God. And those who have chosen to reject God/Christ won't be around
anymore to pester those who ARE God's chosen people (and I do not speak
here of the Jewish nation)." - Tenna Draper
"Loose your fuckin' quote box or I'll rip yer head off with my
pitchfork." - Satan
"No one on this earth is starving to death EXCEPT by choice and Lazyness."
- Titus Ashbury
"Why does the earth always take 24 hours to get around the sun? Who
controls this?" - Gary Hull
"All are Slaves to God.. some know it, some dont." - Pratap Derrick
"...I do think that Christians are functionally illiterate or amoral. Why?
Because if you read your own damn holy book, and were a decent person, you
would reject it out of hand. Therefore, Christians (1) never read the
Bible, (2) can't understand what they read, or (3) are indecent."
- John McHenry
"The thoughtless are rarely wordless." - Tagline

"But the Holy Spirit is a person....in the Godhead." - Unknown

"Is the "Godhead" where gods go to the bathroom?" - J.J. Hitt
"Quick, Jesus -- to the Godcave!" - Hector Plasmic

"Benevolence is a straw man, and these asteroids of yours are totally

theoretical." - Jesse Hornbacher
"Really? You really have lived a sheltered life, haven't you? Maybe you
ought to take a trip to Arizona (that's in the Southwestern U.S. in case
you don't know) and jump into Meteor Crater and bump your "theoretical
head". Ever look at the moon? Wonder where those craters came from? Or
do you think the moon really is made out of cheese? Swiss at that?" - Carl
Wilson

"Sorry, I must have misunderstood your question. I believe that the Holy
Spirit caused one of Mary's eggs to become a fetus without sperm." - Steve
Bedard
"In vertebrates, the phenomena of parthenogenesis (look it up) is well
documented in the classes Pisces, Amphibia and Reptilia, but not in Aves
nor Mammalia. Therefore, we are forced to conclude that ol' Jesus must
have been either a land shark or the original lounge lizard."
- Marty Leipzig

"Methinks they protest too much! If God doesn't exist, why pay any
 attention to the activities of Christians?" - Frank Mcfatridge

"Because if you don't, one of their number might just stick a 12 gauge in
your ear and pull the trigger." - Marty Leipzig

"Christians envying Pagans and wiccans? There's nothing to envy. Your god
was defeated by the blood of Jesus 2000 years ago, and he's only living on
borrowed time. You're following a loser, the biggest one in history of the
universe." - Alan Kern
"Do you have some evidence of this god of yours or are just blowing smoke
out your ass." - Martin Goldberg

"Most believers know the Bible was written by humans. The "issue" is
whether or not the human authors accurately described events such as the
parting of the sea." - John Prewitt
"Okay. Then how did humans describe events such as the creation, which
happened before there were any humans to witness them? So much for that
hypothesis." - Kelsey Bjarnason

"Do you really expect me to believe that if God came down and killed your
child that you wouldn't be in the least bit upset?" - David Worrell
"Why should I be? Thier all going to heaven." - Kenneth Mcabee

"I watched my daddy farm." - Hampie Mcdonald

"Fancy that... Old Mcdonald had a farm." - J.J. Hitt

"Besides, if I was caught in a boat with Don [Ward], I'd jump overboard."
- Kevin Mckenzie
"That's where you and I are different - I'd throw Don overboard."
- David Worrell
"When you get to be my age, you learn patience. I would not jump
overboard. I would not throw him overboard. In such a situation, with only
two guys, one boat, and the sea stretching for miles, I stand an excellent
chance of getting hungry later on." - Don Martin

"This is not comprehenable to man's brain." - Alan Kern

"So which is it, Alan? You don't comprehend it or you don't have a man's
brain?" - "Hector Plasmic"

 "So, "God" talks to you?" - Unknown

"Sure! Doesn't he talk to everybody?" - Tenna Draper

"I agree it was not written for our level of technology. Yet fundies, in
spite of this, still insist on a literal interpretation." - Bruce Riley
"Yet Daniel told of aircraft, wireless radio, headlights on cars. Modern
technology. Naahhh." - Titus Ashbury

"We are _all_ worthy of death." - Tenna Draper

"*You* might be. Kindly leave the rest of us out of your delusions."
- David Worrell

"Tuck your telephone wire up your arse, Doug, and upload your nine posts
where they will do the most good." - Don Martin
"I can always tell when I've hit the nail on the head: folks start
squawking. Thanks for confirming that the message got out." - Doug Snead
"You take a studied, vulgar insult of your behavior as a "squawk"? You
ARE a mindless little pustule, aren't you?" - DM
"BTW. Are you saved?" - DS
"I am afraid I do not share your hallucinations regarding imaginary
superfriends. Corroborate your biblical ravings with some verifiable
evidence, and I might consider signing up. But not until." - DM

"May the Lord Jesus Christ soften your heart, Mr Martin." - Doug Snead
"He seems to have done a very good job of softening your brain."
- J.J. Hitt

"It is stupid little gooks that bother me. Go stick it up your yellow
ass." - Matt Giwer
"I always suspected that Mr. Giwer was a complete and total gerbil
smuggling sheep humper, and now you've provided me with concrete evidence.
It's losers like that who give the rest of us godless heathens a bad
name." - Quentin Fai

"JESUS died for His people." - Douglas Duke

"Jesus didn't die, remember? Don't you Christers believe he still lives?"
- David Worrell

"The scientific evidence is at the end. Read the whole posting, it flows."
- Andew Conner
"Another characteristic it shares with diarrhoea." - Don Martin

"So, why do the paramedics take a pulse? Why don't they just thump the
patient on the head?" - Don Ward
"Because, in your case, it could possibly damage their hands." - Dan Ceppa

"Oxygen is technically a poison, and is one of the causes of our eventual

death. Would you appreciate it if I tried to stop you from breathing to
prevent the damage to your body that oxygen causes?" - David Worrell
"Once again, a terrible analogy. I shouldn't even bother answering it, but
I might as well say something. First of all we need oxygen to survive. I
don't have to have sex with a male or female in order to survive."
- Ralph Jansen
"Irrelevant. Your whole argument against homosexuality rests on the fact
that it damages bodily tissues. Oxygen does the same thing. However,
since you don't like the oxygen angle, try certain harmful food groups.
Do you believe that fried foods should be outlawed since they damage our
bodies? Yes, I know, we do need to eat to survive, but it doesn't have to
be fried chicken. Are you going to support the campaign to outlaw Kentucky
Fried Chicken restaurant?" - DW

"What happens when that big fusion bomb fails to emit light and heat."
- Andrew "Head-crash" Conner
"We freeze to death. Got any more silly questions?" - David Worrell
"Evidence of DE-EVOLUTION" - AC
"What is evidence of de-evolution?" - DW

"Satan is clever" - Don Ward

"And, of course, you don't want to be anything like satan.
Congratulations, you've succeeded." - Hector Plasmic

"Perhaps we could use him [Jim Staal] as a buoy in the middle of the
shipping channel." - Dan Ceppa
"I don't think so. Can you imagine the time it would take to get anything
done in a harbor if one of the bouys was constantly proselytizing every
ship that passed by?" - David Worrell
 "ROTFL! `I baptize you the USS Fundy! Now, be fruitful and deliver
those bananas.'" - Dan Ceppa

"The USA could kick Canada's butt with 99% of our military tied behind our
back... thanks to our technological and military knowledge."
- Andrew Cummins
"Wow, how patriotic of you. Patriotism is one thing, Andy...but ignorance
of the world is the one disease you seem to suffer from most. Why would
you be proud of the fact that we can invade and take over Canada (this is
doubtful I might add)? Why would you be proud of the fact that we've
invested so much money in bullets and far from enough in education?"
- Ryan Shaw

"I've already addressed this in one message to you, but to emphasize: I AM

NOT A FUNDAMENTALIST. Do NOT make assumptions about me thinking I am." -
Michael Hardy
"`Quack,' said a certain flight-capable aquatic fowl. You persist in
trying to include the unaffected in your beliefs. If you have webbed feet,
quack and waddle like a duck, chances are, you are, indeed, a duck." -FR

"(Here, sheep, sheep, sheep.... Here, sheep, sheep, sheep.....)"

- Quentin Fai
"Try your local church." - Drew Webber

"The main thrust of the cross is that JESUS was placed upon a pole, just
as Moses lifted up the serpent on a pole in the OT." - Douglas Duke
"And when the Pope lifts his staff, we have the spectacle of Jesus on a
pole on a Pole." - Don Martin

"Christians have a right and a duty to eradicate all false religions from
the face of the earth. If possible this should be done through bringing
the lost to Jesus. If that doesn't work then these false relions should
be destroyed by any means necessary." - "Trent Dented"
"Dear Trent... You aint dented, yer fucking wrapped around a goddam tree.
Do any of these "false religions" that you have marked for destruction
claim to be Christian? If so, please tell me how you tell the "true"
Christians from the "false" Christians? Are you out to destroy all
Catholics or all Protestants? And what about the Christian Scientists,
Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists and the Salvation Army?
You gonna destroy all them too? They _ALL_ beleive in Jesus, even if they
disagree with the mainstream on some points. How many Jews are you going
to destroy? (The current high score is six-million some odd. That's
going to be mighty hard to beat.)" - J.J. Hitt

"Atheist ethics are so much hot air." - John Prewett
"While Christian ethics carry hot lead with them?" - George Rudzinski

"Christianity would be amusing, if it hadn't killed millions throughout

history." - Unknown
"Christianity never killed anybody or anything. Angry, frightened people
killed other people while hiding behind the name." - Charlie Cowan
"Hmm. By the same reasoning, Naziism never killed anybody. The problem
with such reasoning is that it completely ignores the reality that many
dogmas include an incitement to killing. Take a gander at the Old
Testament, for example: it is loaded with rampant killing, generally for
no more reason than that the victims dared to think for themselves."
- Kelsey Bjarnason

"Well, now keep in mind that I am only speaking for myself." - Jim Staal
"Lil' fundi, I don't see the prospects for you being hired to speak for
anyone else

"Maybe you should ask MISTER Ceppa. He'll probably try and convince you
that is really Dave Oosterman." - Jim Staal
"Between you and Oosterman, you don't have enough balls to make a pawn
sign symbol." - Dan Ceppa

"Believe me, I *KNOW* the human side of *frustration*!!!" - Niki Zanzo

"Have you considered hiring a hooker?" - "Captain Fuck"

"I didn't think that curse words and sacrigious messages belonged on this
conference." - Margureet Kendall
"You have provided ample evidence of your incapacity to think in the past,
so why should the present be any different?" - Don Martin

"Gravity to you is Satan holding you back from the salvation of Jesus
Christ." - Don Ward
"What have you been smoking and what was it laced with?"
- Preston Simpson
"Second hand smoke laced with the spirit of GOD" - Don Ward

"Gay people are worshipers of SATIN" - Don Ward
"No sheet?" -J.J. Hitt

"One day not to far away I am afaid to say that it will actually be
against the law to speak of Jesus in public," - Michell Miller
"Your paranoid delusions are amusingly ridiculous. But if they make life
a little sweeter for you, enjoy." - Robert Curry

"American schools are falling FAR behind the rest of the world. We are
really becoming a joke, in so far as education goes. This started when
we took prayer and creation teaching out of public schools. Conclussion:
We took God out of school, and the school system is falling apart."
- Doug Brewer
"Preposterous to the nth degree. The Japanese have one of the most
rigorous and hardest school systems in the world, churning out
highly-educated people who, unlike many of their American counterparts,
can read, write, and cipher by the time they graduate. I am not aware of
*any* Christian influence in *any* Japanese class, yet they consistently
provide higher educational standards than we do. Conclusion: Your
conclusion is full of shit." - Preston Simpson

"... God told me to set you on fire." - Dan Ceppa

"Uh, I don't _think_ so. God does not talk to evil pagans who do not
believe He exists." - Jim Staal

"What does John 3:16 mean to you." - Marguerite Kendall

"It means it is time for John to get a new watch. His current one is
stuck." - Steve Rose

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." - Bob Swell

"Kill any innocent witches of late?" - Fredric Rice

"I didn't make this up, it says this in the Bible." - Chris Vetter
"I see. So you are simply allowing someone else to make it all up for
you." - Steve Rose

 "Ah, the tired and disreputable old "He wasn't a *true* Christian"
argument. Save it for someone who hasn't heard it." - Preston Simpson
"Argumentum ad bozum non Christii." - Robert Jackson

"I guess you are also forgetting the practice of human sacrifice as
described in the bible?" - Judith "Bandsaw" Bandsma
"Shame on you Judith! You call yourself a Quaker! I smell a witch."
- Jim Murray
"Fee, fie, fo, fum, we all smell the stench of Christendom. Gonna start
lighting bonfires, are you now? It's quite typical of the ignorant to
accuse those more learned than they of "witchcraft". Your ancestors from
Plymouth would be so thrilled that you are carrying on the family
bigotry. I suppose you still wear one of those pointy hats to hide your
pointed head." - Dan Ceppa

"Alcohol should still be illegal. I am sure that everyone is familiar

with the harm that it does when used to excess. If everyone were capable
of using it in moderation, I would see no problem with it, but you and I
know that is not the case." -Dan Baldwin/Captain Fuck/Dr. James Robertson
So your answer is punish everybody because a minority of idiots lack
self-control and good judgement? Gee, then I guess we should ban the use
of automobiles, firearms, cutlery, and baseball bats. Your inability to
reason astounds me. And I've met my share of unreasonable people."
- Garrett Banse

"As marijuana does not produce food, it was not put here for our
benefit." - Dan Baldwin/Captain Fuck/Dr. James Robertson
"Do you have even the most remote evidence to support this stupid idea?
We cannot eat air, gasoline, cotton, glass, etc. either, so by your
statement I guess we should all run around naked until we suffocate,
huh?" - John Hewett

"I hope Staal and Oosterman are covering their ears. Or should I tell
them you're in desperate need of counseling?" - Unknown
"Counseling? Counseling for what?" - Jim Staal/Dave Oosterman
"A split personality. Thing is, between the 2 of you, you don't have
one." - Dan Ceppa

"More unsubstantiated rubbish. Can't you think for yourself?"

- Preston Simpson
"Sorry I don't need too, I have God to think for me." - Kenneth Mcabee

"[however, even in the OT, God reasoned with God's people,"
- John Prewitt
"and anyone who was not "God's people" were wiped off the face of the
planet if they got in the way." - David Worrell
"So,... once the word gets around, smart people don't get in the way."
- John Prewett
"Ahhh.. I see. God's a *bully*. It's so much clearer now. You have
reaffirmed the claim made by many of us heathens that your God rules
through intimidation and fear." - David Worrell

"Stop the car or you're going to drive off a cliff!" That's what the
warning of "hell" is Stephen, a warning -- not a threat." -Michael Hardy
"Ahh, but God put us in the car, cut the brake lines, and aimed the car at
a cliff." - David Worrell
"Then hid all evidence that the cliff exists, made sure that all 'warnings'
were irrational, illogical, and patently absurd, and then selected only
drooling lunatics as its spokespeople. Guite obviously, this god of theirs
is more fucked up than they are." - David Rice

"Yes, perfectly. So, if MY book says it's the Word of God, how do you know
that it is not?" - Steve Quarella
"Because only _mine_ is, silly man. Why does it take you so long to catch
on to these things?" - Jim Stall

"I'm glad you said that...Get thee to a library and read SALVATION FOR
SALE. Gerard Thomas Straub is the author." - Steve Quarella
"Sorry. Don't read pagan books" - Jim Staal

"Now, the sun-worshippers noticed that at certain points in time, the sun
grew smaller, then stopped, then grew larger." - Leon Brooks
"It doesn't. It doesn't even APPEAR to change in size." - J.J. Hitt
"Perhaps you haven't been staring at it for long enough." - Leon Brooks

"Ask your local public librarian about other scriptures, Jim."

- Robert Curry
"There are no other scriptures, Robert..." - Jim Staal

 "You guess wrong. The Hindus, the Zoroastrians, and the Buddhists are just
three other religious groups that had religious scriptures before your
Christian religion even began writing its own." - Robert Curry
"Ha-ha! Where _do_ you get this irresponsible information? Nothing could
be farther from the truth. Nothing predates Genesis 1:1...'in the
beginning...'." - Jim Staal

"That's it, blow job. "IS NOT!!!!!" You are a liar -" - Drew Webber
"AM NOT!!!" - Jim Staal
"<snicker> Scream it a little louder for those in back." - Preston Simpson

This is the introduction to the HOLYSMOKE Fidonet echo conference FAQ. It

attempts to ask the question, "Why is there holy smoke?" The quick answer is,
"Because it fills a need." The long answer is slightly more complicated.
There are many religion-based echo conferences in Fidonet, most of which are
sponsored and moderated by members of various religions. The majority of these
conferences are various forms of monotheism such as Christianity, Judaism, and
Islam, with various Christian cults dominating (in Zone 1). Many other
religious conferences are polytheistic or pantheistic, such as Wiccan, Pagan,
and neo-Pagan. And then there are what can loosely be clumped together as "New
Age," though much of "New Age Thought" is not religious, but rather
philosophical and ideological-- this observation varies from one "New Ager" to
another.
The latter two echoes welcome honest inquiry and criticism. The Wiccan
religion, of which there are several "Traditions,", REQUIRE honest inquiry,
relentless questioning, and harsh criticism from their members and students to
any dogma that may be presented-- the Wiccan echoes reflect this free inquiry,
and all queries are generally answered in the spirit of honesty and mutual
respect.
None of us have spent any time in the "New Age" (Rymes with sewage) echoes,
so we can't tell you anything about them.
If you have spent any time at all reading the monotheist echoes, and
particularly the Christian and Islamic ones, you will have discovered that the
moderators, without exception, are authoritarian, dictatorial, and grim
"control freaks" who will not tolerate honest inquiry of their ridged dogma--
questioning "virgin births," "bleeding / weeping statues," and asking "Why
would god pray to himself?" are immediately ruled "off topic," and the person
posing the question may have her echo feed severed, usually with a lot of hell
and damnation thrown in, sometimes with threats of legal action, and then she
is ordered to repent from her sin of questioning "god" (i.e. the moderator's
occult beliefs). Since these cults refuse to accept anything less than
unquestioned obedience to their religious dogma, another echo was required
where one may go and ask the right questions and discover the truth.
The HOLYSMOKE echo exists so that off-topic religious issues from other echoes
in Fidonet may be moved to an echo where they are topical. No one in the past
four years has yet succeeded in helping any theist think past their
brainwashing and self-deception to see the truth, but there's always the chance
that some ignorant god- believing savage will be saved from their delusions, so
we have to try.
Q: What is "HOLYSMOKE?"
A: HolySmoke, the "McLaughlin Group" of Fidonet echoes, is an arena wherein
people with deeply-held religious convictions may come and set the ignorant
Godless heathens straight, or not, as the case may be. This is the echo
where echovangelists are banished when they are off-topic in other Fidonet
echoes, such as A_THEIST and COOKING. (See "Echovangelist" entry below).
It is the "electroshock therapy for religion addicts" cure that so many
Fidonet members are so richly and clearly in need of. The moderator is Styx
Allum of 1:152/20. If you don't like his name, insult his parents. It's
REAL!
Q: Why is the phrases "You seem bitter" and "My, you're so full of
anger" so often used by religionists in HolySmoke?
A: These phrases are often used as replies to excessively abrasive arguments by
an agnostic or atheist that has demonstrated the religionist's pet
assertions false; the religionist resorts to eliciting an emotional response
instead of addressing the topic at hand.
A: From John Musselwhite:
You may be missing the point. The people who are ridiculed (as it were) are
not those who profess a simple belief in a creator; they are those who
insist their beliefs are correct and we MUST ALL bow down before GOD before
we all roast in Hell. Then there are those who make ridiculous claims about
the veracity of their "Book" and attempt to use pseudo-science to "prove"
they are right. As for myself, I could care less who a person worships,
although I usually strongly disagree with their intent. As a secular
student of biblical times, I have learned a lot about what Christianity was
really all about (IMHO) and what life was like in first-century Judah.
Personally, I feel those who take the Bible literally and those who follow
Pauline thought should study more, and attempt to understand what was REALLY
going on! By far the biggest problem though, are those who insist I should
pay to support their religion. Our city supports a separate school system
for Catholics, and the duplication of services and buildings costs every one
of us. There are many examples of religion being pushed on those who do not
wish it. We who do NOT wish to have anything to do with religion must
suffer through innumerable disturbances from people who insist their
religion should be in the forefront. THOSE are the people who are the
targets of ridicule in this echo!
Q: What is a `fundi'? (Also, fundy, fundies)
A: From Marty Leipzig:
FUNDIE (fun'dee) n. and adj. (pl. Fundies), A member of an American
conservative religious movement that believes in biblical inerrancy. This
movement had its roots in the nineteenth-century orthodox reaction to the
higher (historico- literary) criticism of the Bible that originated among
European theologians and was accepted by American "modernists".
Fundamentalism owes its name to the "Five Fundamentals", a list of five
beliefs that the Presbyterian General Assembly drew up in 1910 as being
essential to the Christian faith. Among those fundamentals was the doctrine
of biblical inerrancy.
Fundies (scientifically: Homo nesciens idiotus) come in two varieties;
(about more later) but are united by the belief that each and every word
("jot and tittle") of the Holy Writ (at least, their latest authorized
version) is unequivocally true. When they find a text convenient to an
 argument, it is quotable as the ultimate truth. But when confronted with an
apparent contradiction, however rational and logical, they sail away upon
the wings of a symbol, an analogy of hidden or recondite significance.
Although two separate and distinct "kinds" of fundies exist, (H.n.i. var.
ruralensis and H.n.i. var. urbanensis), they can be typically identified
by their ubiquitous possession of a heavily thumped (but seldom read) Bible;
an almost cataleptic and unquestioned adherence to dated dogma and the
extraordinarily annoying ability of being able to interject their own
personal version of ethics and morality into almost any subject, no matter
how abstruse. As a group, they are exasperatingly uni-dimensional.
H.n.i. var. ruralensis can be typified as a backwoods rustic living among
the 'possums, 'coons, 'dillos and magnolias who is functionally illiterate.
Though some may become transplanted to more municipal settings; they
stubbornly adhere to old habits: mouth breathing, barefootedness and
brainless Bible-based bleating.
A macroevolutionary jump (although most would argue that it is really a
regressive event) is responsible for the other variety: H.n.i. var.
urbanensis. They arose from their humbler cousins in the deep, dark, dank
backwoods but have evolved to exploit the trophism of bright lights,
television cameras, teleprompters and wireless communication. Basically, a
member of this group can be described as a country bumpkin of the
wacko-right turned religious zealot and usually named Billy, Jimmy, Oral or
some other familiar sobriquet. They drape the mantle of Christian piety
around their shoulders (which they carefully interweave with the American
flag), and stomping off on a witch hunt; ferret out "fellow travelers",
"one- worlders", that archenemy of all right thinking people: the "secular
humanist", and other assorted bogeymen. With a primitive view of this world
and a psychedelic view of the next, they harangue lost sinners (and those
with the ability to think for themselves) in an impassioned and declamatory
style to "REPENT!" and be born again. Ranting and raving; and spouting
smoke, fury, fire, brimstone and stained glass blather; they pace whatever
stage they can usurp like a whirling dervish with a caffeine addiction. The
venue may change, but the song always remains the same.
Usually, such narrowly unspecialized organisms as the ones cited above
represent an evolutionary dead-end. In these cases, though, it is more of a
U-turn.
A: From Don Martin:
Fundy is short for a combination of two words emerging from the same Latin
root, _fundus_ (bottom), from whence _fundare_ (to lay the bottom). The
English _fundament_ refers to 1. the buttocks. 2. the anus. Religious
extremists, who do their thinking with these organs, practice
_fundamentalism_: 1. orthodox religious beliefs based on a literal
interpretation of the Bible. 2. Among some American Protestants, the
movement based on this belief: opposed to _modernism_.
Around here, fundy simply means religious asshole. [Isn't that redundant?
-CJ]
A: Someone who hates for God, and calls it "love." These can come from any
cult: Born Against Christians, Krishna Devotees, Mormons, Cult Awareness
Network, Pat Robertson's, Jerry Falwell's, Jimmy Stewart's.
Q: "Why is everyone picking on me?"
A: Chances are, you deserve it. When someone asserts wild and baseless claims,
and then insists that others believe these claims, one may expect a little
 heat. Some assertions that generate heat: "My book was written by god
because it says so, and god wouldn't lie." "God hates such-and-such." "God
loves such-and-such." "I'll pray for you, you stupid ignorant gibbering
idiot pitiful atheists." Some of the theists in HOLYSMOKE are not picked on
or abused, because they do not bring it upon themselves. Most atheists and
agnostics, Pagans and Wiccans and other disreputable folks in HOLYSMOKE get
their toast fried now and then, too, so don't feel you're alone in your
"persecution."
Q: Everyone is calling me a bigot because I stand for Christ! [Oh, PLEASE
drive those nails in harder!]
A: From Kelsey Bjarnason:
Incorrect. Anyone who discriminates based on
prejudice or other unreasoned foundation is labelled 'bigot'. If blacks
were known to be rampant killers with no sense of the value of life, you
would not be a bigot to be afraid of them, or to point out that they need to
be controlled.
However, blacks are not rampant killers. Indeed, the only distinguishing
feature, as a group compared to whites as a group, is their skin
pigmentation - hardly a worthy basis for fearing or controlling them.
You see? Someone who discriminates against blacks simply because they are
black is a bigot - the discrimination is entirely unwarranted.
Many Christians are shown to be bigots by the words and their actions. They
discriminate against gays, against people who have sex before marriage,
against women, against scientists. All of that discrimination is based on -
and please make very careful note of this - ***nothing*** more than their
personal choice to adopt a belief system of which such discrimination is an
inherent part.
You can't point to God. You can't show that he exists. There is asbolutley
nothing in all of observed reality which even hints at any deity, let alone
a specific deity. The only way to adopt the belief in such a being is
*purely* by personal choice. You choose to adopt a belief of discrimination
and hatred.
Can you see now why disliking Christians, or more accurately the Christian
dogma, is not necessarily bigotry, but rather is a sane and rational
response to a very real threat?
Q: What is "Hir?"
A: Politically correct gender-neutral noun, "Her + Him = Hir."
Q: What is "Crucifixation?"
A: A state of mental duress, usually inside a fundamentalist Christian brain,
that admires blood, guts, suffering, agony, drinking blood of God and eating
His body, and usually wishes to be crucified and martyred hirself. This
fixation prevents those afflicted with it to question why Jews would crucify
a heretic in the Roman fashion, when death by stoning was the preferred
method of disposing of sons of Gods.
Q: What is the "Flood Of Ignorance?"
A: The Creationist's claims of a global flood, survived by Noah and his clan,
whereby millions of humans died horribly; whereby billions of animals died
in screaming terror by drowning-- your typical Christian Death Cult story,
which they get off on so much.
Q: What's this "IHS!" thing?
A: This can mean a great many things! It was originally coined by a HolySmoke
Regular to mean "In His Service!" though it is not clear just who "His" may
be. Usual variations may mean "I'm Happy Stupid!" SHIt backwards, "I'm
Helping Satan!" "In Hitler's Service!" "I Hate Science!" "Idiot Has Spoken!"
"I heat sausage!" "I Hate Spam!" and others far too numerous to mention.
The most common usage in HOLYSMOKE means "BULLtIHS!" The original meaning is
"In Hoc Signum Vincit," referring to the Christian crucifix as "By this sign
we conquer."
Q: And what's this "TIHS!" thing?
A: SHIT backwards.
Q: What is "One Nation Under God?"
A: Iran.
Q: What is a "Creationist?"
A: What apes evolved from.
Q: Really, what is a Creationist?
A: Someone who is stupid enough to 'think' the FACT of evolution is false just
because their hol(e)y book(s) tell them so.
Q: What is a "Factualist?"
A: See Creationist.
Q: What is a "Not Real True Christian?"
A: Any Christian that isn't a member of the same cult as the one talking right
now.
A: When murder, mayhem, rape, and atrocities are performed by Christians in the
name of God, their partners in religion say they were not Real True
Christians. Some famous Not Real True Christians include Jim Bakker, Jimmy
Swaggart, Jim Jones, Hitler, Jerry Falwell, All Catholics, Jeffrey Dahlmer,
Mike Warnke, John "Todd" Collins, Mormons, God Jehovah, and the IRA/Provos.
Q: What is a "Real True Christian?"
A: The Christian that you happen to be talking to at this minute.
A: A Christian, individually or grouped in a herd, that has not yet been
exposed as child molesters, pornographers, whore-mongers, serial killers, or
income tax cheaters. (See "Not Real True Christian.") Some famous Real True
Christians are Gandi, who wasn't, Buddha, who isn't, and Jesus, who never
existed.
Q: Now hold on here. You can't responsibly group those obviously psychotic
fringe groups that claim to be of God with the true Christians among us.
A: From Paul Boyer:
Why not group "those obviously psychotic fringe groups" with the rest of the
*cough, cough* "True Christians"? You "True Christians" do exactly the same
thing you decry above, against groups with which you disagree -- i.e., you
characterize all gays and lesbians from the actions of extremist ACT UP
affinity groups; you characterize all pro-choice people from the activities
of a few doctors who perform late-term abortions [in emergencies]; you
characterize all Liberals from the views of a few who are doctrinaire
Leftists. You and your kind demonize your opponents from the actions of a
few of the most extreme of their kind, yet expect to be exempt from similar
stigmatization?
Q: What is "Christian Double Standard Time"
A: This is the standard that some Christians use to judge who is and is not
Christian. If a Christian commits a crime for Jesus, the perpetrator may or
may not be a criminal or Christian, depending on the crime. See "Not Real
Christian."
Q: What is a "Christian Comic?"
A: In a great many Fidonet echoes, there are days when a Christian
Fundamentalist waltzes in, says something hilarious, then waltzes out
without regard for topical relatedness, quality, protocol, or desire for
rational dialogue. Humorous stuff like "You're forever damned for all
time," or "The first law of thermodynamics says evolution is false (they
don't know how to count to two)," or "They aren't Real True Christians."
Such jerks often get refered to HOLYSMOKE. Most of them are cowards for
Christ and never show up.
Q: What does "IS NOT!" mean?
A: This is the Theory of Creation Science.
Q: What is the "Theory of Creation Science?"
A: "IS NOT!" Creationists refuse to provide a theory of Creationism, because
they do not have one. Therefore it is damn hard to teach it in public
school, yet they still demand that it should. Creationists assume that if
they can find holes in evolutionary theory, their religious beliefs become
true via default. Therefore their efforts are never to find evidence to
falsify their non- existent theory, but to "prove" evolutionary theory
unsound-- this effort they call "Creation Science," which it isn't. Go
figure.
Q: What is the "$15.00 God Challenge?"
A: David Rice will give US$15.00 to anyone who can prove He isn't God.
Previous attempts have failed miserably, as contestants assume that He must
perform some miracle for them, which would be Him proving He is God, and not
them proving He is not. This challenge is a thought experiment for theists
to consider when they assert proof of their tiny little gods and disproof of
Others like the One True God, David Rice. If they can prove their god(s)
are real, surely they can prove Omnipotent Rice isn't?
Frederic Rice aparently has $1000 U.S. up for grabs if anyone can prove any
god exists.
NOTE: These offers are from their respective parties. I am in no way
connected with them. I have not verified the truthfulnes of either offer.
Q: What is the "Mutant Star Goat?"
A: The One True God, Who created life, the universe, and everything. Now prove
me wrong! This is another thought experiment for theists. Everything they
claim for their God(s) can be said for Star Goat with equal validity. Star
Goat (braise His name) sent His only begotten Son, Billy, to Earth to die on
the Holy Bar-Be-Que Pit for us. Those who continue to deny this truth will
be eaten on Judgment Day by Star Goat, to stew in the Holy Bile for all
eternity. If a theist believes she or he can punch a hole in Star Goat
theology, they should come to realize eventually that every hole they create
APPLIES EQUALLY to their God(s). No one can prove Star Goat is not the One
True God, and Goatees know in their hearts that He is, therefore He is!
QED.
Q: What is a "Goatee?"
A: A devotee of Star Goat.
Q: What is "Bile-ed" and "Bile-it?"
A: When evil sinners, or anyone else who did not worship Star Goat in life,
find themselves dead, their souls will be swallowed by Billy, Star Goat's
only beGoatten Son, to stew in the Holy Bile for all eternity. This is
roughly equivalent to "damned" but unlike the falsehood of Hell, the Holy
Bile EXISTS! Goat save you if you don't hurry and accept Billy as your
Personal Savior! Send money! We are the advocates of the Goat Life!
Honest. (No refunds.)
Q: "Pink, invisible, flying hippo?" Excuse me?
A: Yes. Her name is Daisy, and she leaves invisible, smell-free turds on the
keyboards of every fundy that posts in HOLYSMOKE. Now prove she doesn't!
When someone brings up the non-measurability of their favorite god (Jesus,
Satan, Yahweh, Jehovah, Zeus, Odin), others bring up Daisy and point out
that the evidence she exists is identical to the evidence their god(s)
exist.
Q: What's an Athiest?
A: Bile-ed if I know! Christian Comics use this word to represent people
without morals; heathens without ethics; lawyers; baby-eaters; perverts;
sodomites; people who voted Democrat. This word is universally used by
theists, and helps to demonstrate the abysmal lack of education that is
common in fundamentalist families.
Q: What's an Atheist? [HINT: Look at the case of the first letter!]
A: No such animal. Did you mean atheist?
Q: Err, what's the difference?
A: None, but if you insist on using Atheist, you will be showing that you are a
complete and utter bozo who knows next to nothing about grammar.
Q: What's an atheist?
A: From Usenet's alt.atheist FAQ:
Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of God.
Some atheists go further, and believe that God does not exist. The former
is often referred to as the "weak atheist" position, and the latter as
"strong atheism".
It is important to note the difference between these two positions. "Weak
atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God. "Strong
atheism" is a positive belief that God does not exist. Please do not fall
into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists".
Some atheists believe in the non-existence of all Gods; others limit their
atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God, rather than making
flat-out denials.
"But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesn't
exist?"
Definitely not. Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe
it to be true. Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to
believing that it is false; one may simply have no idea whether it is true
or not.
Q: What is an "Agnostic?"
A: One who doesn't know, or give a shit, if God exist or not.
Q: What is "God?"
A: God is God because He is.
Q: No really: what is "God?"
A: God is someone theists attribute all the good things that happen, like "I
thank God for letting me win this football game," or "Thank God they didn't
catch me molesting these alter boys," or "Thank God for my job / spouse /
slaves." This Guy gets all the credit for other people's hard work and
devotion.
Q: I'm serious, now! What is "God?"
A: God is someone theists attribute all the bad things that happen, like
hurricanes that kill hundreds and leave thousands homeless ("It was God's
Will"), earthquake disasters, plane crashes, New Jersey never winning the
Pennant, floods, death by lightening strike, and virginity.
Q: What is an "Echovangelist?"
A: Steve Winter
Q: Who or what is "Steve Winter"
A: A jerk who was booted from Fidonet for being overly annoying in the name of
the Laaard. He was since alowed back in to Fidonet because the IC is a
spineless pile of shit. Ask if you want full details.
Q: How does one deal with Echovangelists?
A: Ignore them and let the moderator deal with them. You see, these sorry,
pathetic souls NEED, and WANT, and DESIRE to be ridiculed and abused. They
lust after the feeling of being persecuted, because they think it's for
"defending God" when in fact it is for being an anal-retentive asshole. If
they are not feeling persecuted, they feel they are not doing their job well
enough to keep out of hell.
Q: What is "Penis Envy?"
A: This is what Randal Terry's wife, who has never seen one, suffers from. For
most people, however, this is a male affliction, not a female one.
According to Satan, in His book "Satan: His Psychotherapy and Cure (by the
Unfortunate Doctor Kasser, J.S.P.S.)" the first words out of Eve's mouth was
"Where do I get one of those?" (But then, Satan is a Freudian.)
Q: What is the "Fundi-Of-The-Month" club?
A: HOLYSMOKE. Almost every month, a new group of fundies shows up, spouting
the same old religous/creationism claptrap. The most brainless ones have
been here for upto 2 years, but most depart in a month or so.
Q: What is a "Republican?"
A: Someone who spends 12 years annihilating American freedoms, destroying the
Supreme Court, making being black illegal, raids Social Security of 500
million dollars when they promised they wouldn't, starts wars in South
Amarica, invades Panama in defience of international law had the second
largest tax increase of all time -- a net increase of $125 billion over five
years. [Wall Street Journal, 8/12/92], then blames the damage on his
successor.
A: A very sore loser.
A: The USA equivilant of Sin Fein, except that they have Prodestant, rather
than Catholic, leanings.
Q: What is a "Democrat?"
A: A commie pinko socialist traitor bleeding-heart liberal anarchist who
Republicans can use as convenient scapegoats.
Q: What is a "cult?"
A: Anyone who doesn't belong to the same religous group that you do.
A: A religon without political power.
Q: What is the "OFTEN_BABBLE" (Also, "OPEN_BABBLE") echo?
A: The echo is actually called OPEN_BIBLE.
Q: Tell me about the "HOLY_BIBLE" echo.
A: This echo is run by the emotionally ill Steve Winters, who has professed it
to be THE ONLY =REAL= Christian echo on Fidonet, disregarding the dozen or
so other Christian echoes, which aren't really, but just clever simulations
by Satan into fooling people into believing that the echoes are
Christian-based. No, really! Just ask Steve!
Q: What is the "HERESY_WATCH" echo?
A: The true name for Harvey Smith's CULT_WATCH echo (which doesn't). This is
your basic Christian hate cult promoting ignorance, hysteria, and propaganda
for God. This echo is sponsored by a messianic Jewish cult.
Q: What about the "CULT_INFO" echo?
A: This is a very fine echo, that constructively addresses religious
differences, and seeks to find a common dialog among the various religions
that are represented in the echo's readership. It is moderated by the
Priestess Rowan Moonstone. This echo is ONLY accessable from PODS.
Q: And the echo "BURNING_TIMES?"
A: This is an echo that addresses violence in the name of religion / God.
There are often newspaper articles posted here, keeping readers up to date
on the "Satanic Crime" myth, and discusses attacks against such groups as
Pagans, Wiccans, Christians, Homosexuals, and Jews by religionists and
bigots.
Q: What is the A_THEIST echo?
A: A place to discuss the importance of state / church separation. We don't do
god(s) here! See also CHURCH&STATE. Both are both the North Amarican
backbone and on Plannet Connect.
Q: What does "fundagelical" mean?
A: Someone who is so narrow minded to be able to look through a keyhole with
both eyes at the same time. Examples: Joe Savelli, Steve Winter, Jim Staal.
Not in that order.
Q: What is a "religiocrit?"
A: Someone who has a special commission from upon high, or a special mandate
from their cult, to be a religious hypocrite. Examples are Duane Gish and
Henry Morris as well as just about 100% of all creationists.
Q: And "Contradictianity?"
A: This is a Christian belief that claims obvious, glaring, naked biblical
contradictions aren't.
Q: What is "Fundi Disk Failure?" (Also: "Sheenism")
A: We often get Christians on the echo who claim they will shortly, in a few
days, provide proof of their god's existence, or proof of a global flood, or
proof that Earth is flat, or proof that evolution didn't and isn't
occurring-- just to vanish at the appointed time, later showing up claiming
a "hard disk crash" ate their proof (I hate it when that happens!). The
first time someone made this claim, he blamed it on Satan. The next person
this happened to blamed it on his god, Jesus-- so they got us coming and
going, eh?
Q: What is "The Rupture?"
A: Every few months someone claims that their "Rapture" is imminent, and we
must all "get right" with his gods. This causes people to laugh so hard
they rupture a lower intestine. There have been claims of "imminent
rapture" for hundreds of years, the latest being May 5th, 2000.
There is even a Fundamentalist Christian text file telling us what to do
when we find we've been left behind. Ask David Rice if you'd like a copy.
Q: Why is evolution constantly a topic in HOLYSMOKE?
A: Goat Bile-ed if I know! This is probably because Creationists refuse to go
to the proper echo, called EVOLUTION, because there are several more
well-informed scientists there than in HOLYSMOKE. As yet, no Creationist
has failed to be properly corrected of their errors in HOLYSMOKE. There are
several highly knowledgeable people in HOLYSMOKE who can and do refute
Creationists claims. Now if the Creationists would just shut up long enough
to listen. . . .
Q: Are there any Satanists here?
A: None that I know of. The best estimate of the number of Satanists in
America is from 4,000 to 5,000 individuals ("Satan Wants You," by Arthur
Lyons), so the odds of one showing up is rather slim. Many of us wish one
or more would!
Q: Why don't you pick on Satanists like you pick on Christians and
Muslims?
A: For a couple of reasons. First off, we only "pick on" someone who makes
irrational and absurd claims while expecting us to believe them-- we've yet
to have a Satanist come along and do so. Second, and more importantly, it
is Christians who are subverting our secular nation through political means,
not Satanists (how many Satanists sue the State so they may lead students in
prayer?).
A: Do you see any Satanists going 'round spreading hatred such as this:
"Yes, even babies are born with aids. The innocent suffer all over the
world along with the guilty. If you knew the Bible you would know why."
- David Lewellyn
Q: Why do you hate God / Jesus?
A: Have you stopped beating your spouse? Do not make the mistake of believing
that attacks on stupidity is equal to an attack on a god just because the
person making the silly claim asserts he's speaking for his god. In the
three years I've read HOLYSMOKE I have yet to see a single person hate God
or Jesus-- just those who claim to be these gods followers. Many Christians
commit crimes in the name of their gods-- we don't blame their gods: we
blame the criminals.
Q: Are "flames" allowed?
A: Flames are EXPECTED. You will be treated with respect and courtesy if you
extend it. The most valuable contributors, who provide references to what
they say, are very seldom flamed -- if you don't like flames, stick to
posting what you know or can validate. Saying "Because I say so,"
"Because I was told so" or reading 'PROOF' where someone wrote 'EVIDENCE'
will turn you medium-rare.
A: From Dan Ceppa:
It, seriously, depends on how you look at it. There are times when a
"polite"
discourse just doesn'tget the message across. Then, the board between the
eyes to get your attention works.
Q: Will "Argument by authority" get me flamed?
A: Depends on the authority, and if you keep all quotes in context and content.
Claiming that several bright people support your assertions therefore your
assertions are true DOES NOT make it so. Don't quote an astronomer on
issues of biology, and a biologist on cosmology-- which is standard
Creationist tactics-- because you will get roasted. Saying "Einstein
believed in God (he didn't) therefore you should" will also get you
roasted-- bright people CAN and DO believe silly things; just because
someone is well educated in one field does not make hir an expert in other
fields.
Q: Does poor spelling get flamed?
A: Often we see theists who mix up "Their, there, and they're," "Too, to, and
two," "atheist" as "athiest," and "your" for "you're." They then in that
very same message proclaim to reveal the secrets of God, the Universe, Life
and all the Really Great Questions humans have pondered for a dozen
millennia-- somehow a crappy speller telling us they know what no one else
does just doesn't seem likely. If one does not know the difference between
"Their" and "they're" worth a Goat Belch, isn't it rather PRETENTIOUS for
one to be telling us all about how much one knows about god and the
universe?!
Q: What are the Dopefish mysteries?
A: "Swim. . . swim. . . hungry. . . swim. . . swim. . . hungry." The
rest is a secret, to be revealed to all shortly. Talk to the Chief
Proselytizer, Steve Quarrella, for all of the facts of this Up And Coming
Soon To Your Door religion.
Q: "What's wrong with Fundies?" - Bruce Kazee
A: From Don Martin:
"Not a thing. Unlike clay pigeons, they are capable of making amusing
howls whilst being shot down. HolySmoke would not be a better place
without them any more than a shooting gallery would be improved by
removing all the little tin ducks."
A: From Marty Leipzig:
"A more appropriate question would be 'What's right with fundies?'"
Q: What's this 'shitlist' I keep hearing about?
A: A short course in comparitive religion:
7TH DAY ADVENTIST Shit happens on Saturdays.
AGNOSTICISM Does shit exist?
AGNOSTICISM I don't know whether shit happens.
AMARICANISM I'll gladly pay through the nose for this shit.
APATHEISM Who gives a damn about this shit.
ATHEISM I don't believe this shit.
ATHEISM There is no shit!
BAHA'I Shi't ha'ppe'ns
BONZAI BOZOISM Make shit happen.. OH SHIT!!
BORN AGAIN Shit happens but I am saved.
BUDDHISM If shit happens, it isn't really shit.
BUDDHISM When shit happens, is it really shit?
BUSH A thousand points of shit.
CALVINISM If you're not saved, tough shit.
CASTRO We have to make this shit work somehow.
CATHOLICISM If shit happens, I deserve it.
CATHOLICISM Let shit happen to someone else.
CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST If shit happens, don't worry. It will go away on
its own time if you pray for it.
CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST Shit isn't real.
CONFUCIANISM Confucious say, "shit happens".
DEJA VUISM I've been through this shit before.
DEMOCRATISM How can we send a man to the moon and still have all
this shit.
DIANETICS You need to clear yourself of this shit.
EASTERN ORTHODOX Rome doesn't know shit.
EPISCOPALIAN Fecal matter occurs.
EVANGELISM Shit happens. (Pass it on.)
EXISTENTIAL I shit, therefore I sit.
FUNDAMENTALISM Born-again shit.
GERTRUDE STEIN A shit is a shit is a shit.
GORBACHEV That shit just didn't work.
HARE KRISHNA Shit happens rama rama ding ding.
HEDONISM When shit happens, enjoy it!
HINDUISM This shit happened before.
HOLISTIC There's more shit here than I figured on.
ISLAM If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
ISLAM We make shit happen to everybody else.
JAINISM Shit happens but don't step in it.
JEHOVAH'S WITLESS Do you want to buy a subscription to our shit?
JEHOVAH'S WITLESS Knock, knock. "shit Happens."
JESUITISM If shit happens and no one hears it, did it really
make a sound?
JIM JONESISM If shit happens, drink Kool-Aid.
JUDAISM Why does this shit always happen to us?
LAO-TZU It is utterly pointless to try to explain shit.
MINIMALIST Shit
MORMONISM Shit happens again & again & again.
It's evil to say "shit."
Wear your magic underware and this shit won't happen
NATIVE AMERICAN We want our shit back!
NEW AGE Crystal power counteracts shit.
NEW AGE Shit happens and it happens to smell good.
PENTACOSTALISM Praise the shit!
PROTESTANTISM If shit happens, you deserve it.
PROTESTANTISM This shit won't happen if I work harder.
RASTAFARIANISM Let's smoke this shit.
REPUBLICANISM There's nothing like a good shit. Flush the toilet.
RLDS Brigham is full of shit.
SATANISM Shit rules!
SCIENTOLOGY This shit is expensive.
SECULAR HUMANISM Shit evolves.
SHINTOISM Everything except Japan is shit.
STOICISM So shit happens, Big deal. I can take it.
TAOISM Shit happens.
TELEVANGELISM This shit won't happen if you donate $99.95 to me.
UNITARIAN Shit is all basically the same.
UNITARIAN What is this shit?
VEGETARIANISM I don't eat that shit!
ZEN What is the sound of shit happening?
Q: What other related echos are there?
A: A_THEIST, SKEPTIC (No religous discussion, please), HOLY_BIBLE, WHOLY_BIBLE,
BIBLE, OPEN_BIBLE, UFO, I_UFO, SRA, BAMA, FMS & CHURCH&STATE.
Q: What's this GOD$LOVE.GIF?
A: A child preparing to feed a bird. FREQ or D/L from Steve Quarrela's board.
Q: What's 'figure one?'
A:
_
/ \
|\_/|
|---|
| |
_ |=-=| _
/ \| |/ \
_ | | | |
/ \| | | ||\
| | | | | \>
| | | | | \
| - - - - |) )
| /
\ /
\ /
\ /
\ /
| |
| |
[Figure 1]
Q: What's the difference between philosophy and theology?
A: If you have an argument over philosophy, you get red in the face. Over
theology, you pull the trigger.
[Q & A stolen from David Rice]
Q: NOODLES???
A: Some time ago, a rather stupid fundi posted the folowing:
"I know another preacher who, along with his church, prayed that the LORD
would help a pot of noodles last through a social dinner, not only did they
last, not only did several take home a container full of noodles, but the
containers always stayed full. Finally, they had to throw them out, after
thanking the LORD of course. I have seen and heard of peoples lives changed
dramatically for the better, in ways that could only be called a miracle.
The LORD russles the leaves if you are willing listen." - Jerry Randall
This is where the "magic NOODLES" come from.
Q: What's "Hector's law?"
A: A fundi, given enough time, will debunk itself without outside
intervention. However, the fundi is often too stupid to know that it has
debunked itself.
Q: <Drool> Atheism kills! <drool>
A: From Kelsey Bjarnason:
I'd bet you can't find a _single_ instance in all of history of _anyone_
killing in the name of atheism or for a specifically atheist dogma.
However, history is rife with examples of killings specifically for and
because of Christianity.
Q: But x is ONLY a theory!
Q: Creationism is a theory! <stomp>
A: From Simon Ewins:
I realize that you appear to have almost no scientific education at all
but I am posting this and the next message in the hope that you may gain
an understanding of what a scientific theory is. All of these are used in
an attempt to explain a fact. The theory of evolution is used, according
to these criteria, to describe the fact of evolution. The theory of
gravity uses these criteria to describe the fact of gravity. When Einstein
proposed a new theory to explain gravity apples did not hang in mid-air
while waiting to see who was right, Einstein or Newton. The improvement or
alteration of the theory did not have any effect on the fact of gravity.
So it is with the fact of evolution. Please read on and discover what a
theory is...
A survey of the literature on the history, philosophy and sociology of
science reveals that there are at least four fundamental categories of
criteria by which theories are judged:
(1) logical criteria
(2) empirical criteria
(3) sociological criteria
(4) historical criteria.
There are four primary logical criteria for a theory. It must be:
(1.a) a simple, unifying idea that postulates nothing unnecessary
("Occam's Razor")
(1.b) logically consistent internally
(1.c) logically falsifiable (i.e., cases must exist in which the
theory could be imagined to be invalid)
(1.d) clearly limited by explicit stated boundary conditions so that
it is clear whether or not any particular data are or are not
relevant to the verification or falsification of the theory.
The need for these four criteria should be obvious upon reflection. An
idea that is too complex or deals with observations piecemeal can have no
practical explanatory value for a scientist. Theories must make clear
patterns of things and relationships between things. These patterns and
relationships must be internally logical and consistent since these are
required attributes of all sound explanations. The explanation must be
falsifiable, at least logically if not by actual experiment, or else
tautologies or other logically sterile constructions might be admissible
as theories. Finally, a theory must be limited by boundary conditions or
else there will be criteria for determining whether or not any particular
observation or experiments should or should not be explainable by the
theory. In fact, if a theory is totally unbounded, then it is not
possible to imagine any observation that is irrelevant to verifying the
theory. Thus, an unbounded theory would not be falsifiable. And, if a
theory cannot be falsified, it cannot be self-corrected. Yet
self-correctability is precisely the characteristic that gives scientific
theories their epistemological power: a theory that is incorrect or
incomplete can, by attempts to falsify it, reveal its faults or
limitations and so be corrected or extended.
Three empirical criteria are of primary importance as well. A theory must:
(2.a) be empirically testable itself or lead to predictions or
retrodictions that are testable
(2.b) actually make verified predictions and/or retrodictions
(2.c) concern reproducible results
(2.d) provide criteria for the interpretation of data as facts, artifacts,
anomalies, or as irrelevant.
The basic point is that not all data are valid for testing any particular
theory. Some data may be interpreted as factual (that is, they fall within
the boundary conditions specified by the theory and verify its predictions
or retrodictions); some may be artifactual (that is, the result of
secondary or accidental influences lying outside the boundaries set for
the validity of the theory); some are anomalous (that is, demonstrably
valid within the bounds of the theory, but also at odds with predictions
or retrodictions made by the theory); some are irreproducible and so,
invalid; and some are irrelevant since they address the theory not at all.
Once again, the necessity of these criteria should be relatively
self-evident. It is possible to imagine theories that are logically
falsifiable but experimentally untestable (as when the technology does not
exist to convert the logical test into an empirical test). Such a theory
cannot be either verified or falsified and so is useless in practice to an
experimental scientist. One can, at best, only leave such empirically
untestable ideas in the scientific purgatory of doubt. A theory must also
limit what may possibly be observed in the universe. Otherwise, one would
not know what to look for, where, how to look for it, under what
conditions, or know whether what one saw was relevant or irrelevant to the
theory. If everything is possible under an explanation, then no tests for
it can exist.
A theory must also make verified predictions and retrodictions to validate
itself. It is possible otherwise to imagine theories that make predictions
and retrodictions all of which are falsified. A theory whose predictions
and retrodictions are falsified, either by the prior existence of relevant
data or the subsequent discovery of relevant data, cannot be considered a
valid theory. It is in need of correction or extension. And, of course, a
theory based upon irreproducible results is, in effect, invalidated by the
very fact that the results cannot be reproduced - for either the boundary
conditions governing the collection of the data have not been properly set,
or the original data may have been due simply to coincidence rather than
any mechanism proposed by the theory.
Sociological criteria also exist for determining the validity of a theory.
A theory must:
(3.a) resolve recognized problems, paradoxes, and/or anomalies irresolvable
on the basis of preexisting scientific theories
(3.b) pose a new set of scientific problems upon which scientists may work
(3.c) posit a "paradigm" or problem-solving model by which these new
problems may be expected to be resolved
(3.d) provide definitions of concepts or operations beneficial to the
problem-solving abilities of other scientists.
Once again, the need for these criteria is manifest. An idea that does
not resolve any recognized scientific problems cannot be called a
scientific theory. It can have no effect upon the research activity of
scientists. Similarly, an explanation that does not pose new problems
does not allow scientists to learn anything they were unable to learn
before. A theory therefore has no sociological value unless it provides a
model for new or more efficient sorts of scientific activity. Thus, a
theory must be stated in terms that are operationally useful to the
community of scientists who might use the theory. If the definitions or
concepts upon which the theory is based are not operationally useful, then
the explanation says nothing experimentally verifiable about nature. Such
an explanation cannot, therefore, be scientific.
Finally, there is a fourth set of theory criteria as well: historical
 ones. A theory must:
(4.a) meet or surpass all of the criteria set by its predecessors or
demonstrate that any abandoned criteria are artifactual
(4.b) be able to accrue the epistemological status acquired by previous
theories through their history of testing or, put another way, be able
to explain all of the data gathered under previous relevant theories
in terms either of fact or artifact (no anomalies allowed)
(4.c) be consistent with all preexisting ancillary theories that already
have established scientific validity.
These criteria are necessary to ensure that theories are correctable.
Correctability, in turn, ensures the increase in explanatory power of
scientific theories with time, and promotes the consistency and
integration of all scientific explanations, without such criteria,
scientists would be free to pick and choose data that favor their
explanations while ignoring previously recorded evidence and theories that
falsify their own ideas. The historical criteria make such unscientific
procedures nearly impossible. The historical records of each science stand
as a monument to the series of tests any new theory must pass to prove its
mettle against the accumulated knowledge of nature. The longer a science
has existed, the greater the accumulated knowledge concerning any
particular aspect of nature. Consequently, the more difficult it becomes
to reformulate all of that knowledge into a new and consistent framework.
[Robert Root-Bernstein]
In short, fundi, if you have a better theory of how the diversity of
species came to be as they are on this planet you must fit it into the
above (and preceding) framework. While your theory is being tested and
evaluated the diversity of species will remain as they now are. The facts
that are manifest under the banner of evolution will not go away while
your theory is being developed. If you can come up with a theory to explain
the fact of evolution that fits these criteria I will accept it... but
_only_ if you can do so and not before.
Q: "Argumentum ad ignorantum?" Excuse me?
A: Here are just a few of the fallacies that many fundies have thrown about in
this echo masquerading as logic:
ARGUMENTUM AD IGNORANTIUM
Argumentum ad ignorantium means "argument from ignorance". This fallacy
occurs whenever it is argued that something must be true simply because it
has not been proved false. Or, equivalently, when it is argued that
something must be false because it has not been proved true. (Note that
this is not the same as assuming that something is false until it has been
proved true, a basic scientific principle.)
Examples:
"Of course the Bible is true. Nobody can prove otherwise."
"Of course telepathy and other psychic phenomena do not exist. Nobody has
shown any proof that they are real."
Note that this fallacy does not apply in a court of law, where one is
generally
assumed innocent until proven guilty.
Also, in scientific investigation if it is known that an event would
 produce certain evidence of its having occurred, the absence of such evidence
can validly be used to infer that the event did not occur. For example:
"A flood as described in the Bible would require an enormous volume of water
to
be present on the earth. The earth does not have a tenth as much water, even
if we count that which is frozen into ice at the poles. Therefore no such
flood occurred."
ARGUMENTUM AD NUMERAM
This fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum. It consists
of asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the
more likely it is that that proposition is correct.
"The Bible must be true. Millions of people know that it is. Are you trying
to tell them that they are all mistaken fools?"
"Eat shit. Ten million flys can't be wrong."
SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF
The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or
proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum
ad ignorantium, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person
who denies or questions the assertion being made. The source of the
fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.
Short form: Don't attempt to prove a negatives. Unless you're an idiot.
ACCENTUS
Description: A Fallacy of Ambiguity, where the ambiguity arises from
the emphasis (accent) placed on a word or phrase.
AFFIRMATION OF THE CONSEQUENT
Description: An argument from the truth of a hypothetical statement,
and the truth of the consequent to the truth of the antecedent. In
the syllogism below, P is the antecedent and Q is the consequent:
P implies Q
Q is true <-- Affirming the consequent
______________
Therefore: P is true
Example: The Bible implies god, therefore, god is true.
AMBIGUITY
Description: An argument in the course of which at least one term is
used in different senses. Also known as equivocation. There are
several types of "fallacies of ambiguity," including REIFICATION,
EQUIVOCATION, AMPHIBOLY, COMPOSITION, DIVISION, and
ACCENTUS.
AMPHIBOLY
Description: A type of Fallacy of Ambiguity where the ambiguity
involved is of an "amphibolous" (equivocal, uncertain) nature.
Amphiboly is a syntactic error. The fallacy is caused by faulty
sentence structure, and can result in a meaning not intended by
the author. "The department store now has pants for men with
32 waists." (How many waists do you have? I have only one!)
ARGUMENTUM AD ANTIQUITAM
Description: A fallacy of asserting that something is right or good
simply because it is old; that is, because "that's the way it's always
been."
Example: The Bible is 2000 years old! It /MUST/ be true!
ARGUMENTUM AD BACULUM
Description: An argument that resorts to the threat of force to cause
the acceptance of the conclusion. Ad baculum arguments also
include threats of fear to cause acceptance.
Example: You'll go to hell if you don't follow my loving god.
ARGUMENTUM AD CRUMENAM
Description: Fallacy of believing that money is a criterion of
correctness; that those with more money are more likely to be
right.
ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM (AKA Flame)
Description: An argument that attempts to disprove the truth of what
is asserted by attacking the speaker rather than the speaker's
argument. Another way of putting it: Fallacy where you attack
someone's character instead of dealing with salient issues. There
are two basic types of ad hominem arguments: (1) abusive, and
(2) circumstantial.
ARGUMENTUM AD LAZARUM
Description: A fallacy of assuming that because someone is poor he
or she is sounder or more virtuous than one who is wealthier. This
fallacy is the opposite of the informal fallacy "argumentum ad
crumenam."
ARGUMENTUM AD MISERICORDIAM
Description: An argument that appeals to pity for the sake of getting
a conclusion accepted.
ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEUM
Description: The incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to
be true the more often it is heard. An "argumentum ad nauseum"
is one that employs constant repitition in asserting a truth.
ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM
Description: A fallacy of asserting that something is more correct
simply because it is new or newer than something else. Or that
something is better because it is newer. This type of fallacy is the
opposite of the "argumentum ad antiquitam" fallacy.
ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM
Description: An argument that appeals to the beliefs of the multitude
(i.e., the "populace"). Another way of putting it: Speaker deals
with passions of audience rather than with salient issues. This
fallacy is also known as "Appeal to Tradition" Ad populum arguments
often occur in (1) propaganda, (2) demagoguery, and (3) advertising.
ARGUMENTUM AD VERECUNDIAM
Description: An argument in which an authority is appealed to on
matters outside his/her field of authority. "Ad verecundiam" also
refers to a fallacy of simply resorting to appeals to authority.
BEGGING THE QUESTION (CIRCULAR REASONING)
Description: An argument that assumes as part of its premises the
very conclusion that is supposed to be true. Another way of saying
this is: Fallacy of assuming at the onset of an argument the very point
you are trying to prove. The fallacy is also sometimes referred to
as "Circulus in Probando." This Fallacy is also known by the Latin
"PETITIO PRINCIPII".
Example: The Bible is true because god said it was. I know god is real
becase the Bible said so.

BIFURCATION
Description: Also referred to as the "black and white" fallacy,
bifurcation is the presentation of a situation or condition with
only two alternatives, whereas in fact other alternatives exist or
can exist.
COMPOSITION
Description: An argument in which one assumes that a whole has
a property solely because its various parts have that property.
Composition is a type of Fallacy of Ambiguity.
CONVERTING A CONDITIONAL
Description: If P then Q, therefore, if Q then P.
Example: Hitler used evolution, therefore, everyone who follows evolution
supports Hitler.
CUM HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC
Description: A fallacy of correlation that links events because they
occur simultaneously; one asserts that because two events occur
together they are causally related, and leaves no room for other
factors that may be the cause(s) of the events. This fallacy is similar
to the "post hoc" fallacy.
DENIAL OF THE ANTECEDENT
Description: An argument in which one infers the falsity of the
consequent from the truth of a hypothetical proposition, and the
falsity of its antecedent.
P implies Q
Not-P
____________
Therefore: Not-Q
DIVISION
Description: An argument in which one assumes that various parts
have a property solely because the whole has that same property.
Division is a type of Fallacy of Ambiguity.
EQUIVOCATION
Description: An argument in which an equivocal expression is used in
one sense in one premise and in a different sense in another premise,
or in the conclusion. Equivocal means (1) of uncertain significance;
not determined, and (2) having different meanings equally possible.
Equivocation is a type of Fallacy of Ambiguity. The opposite of
equivocation is "unovocation," in which a word always carries the
same meaning through a given context.
FALLACY OF INTERROGATION
Description: The question asked has a presuppostion which the
answerer may wish to deny, but which he/she would be accepting
if he/she gave anything that would count as an answer. Any answer
to the question "Why does such-and-such happen?" presupposes that
such-and-such does indeed happen.
FALSE ANALOGY
Description: An analogy is a partial similarity between the like features
of two things or events on which a comparison can be made. A
false analogy involves comparing two things that are NOT similar.
Note that the two things may be similar in superficial ways, but
not with respect to what is being argued.
SECUNDUM QUID (HASTY GENERALIZATION)
Description: An argument in which a proposition is used as a
premise without attention given to some obvious condition that
would affect the proposition's application. This fallacy is also known
as the "hasty generalization." It is a fallacy that takes evidence
from several, possibly unrepresentative, cases to a general rule;
generalizing from few to many. Note the relation to statistics: Much
of statistics concerns whether or not a sample is representative of a
larger population. The larger the sample size, the better the
representativeness. Note also that the opposite of a hasty generalization
is a sweeping generalization.
IGNORATIO ELENCHI
Description: An argument that is supposed to prove one proposition
but succeeds only in proving a different one. Ignoratio elenchi stands
for "pure and simple irrelevance."
ILLICIT PROCESS
 Description: A syllogistic argument in which a term is distributed in
the conclusion, but not in the premises. One of the rules for a valid
categorical syllogism is that if either term is distributed in the
conclusion, then it must be distributed in the premises. There are
two types of Illicit Process: Illicit Process of the Major Term and
Illicit Process of the Minor Term.
PLURIUM INTERROGATIONUM (MANY QUESTIONS)
Description: A demand for a simple answer to a complex question.
Example: The US schools are going down the drain because the school day
is no longer started with a prayer.
NON CAUSA PRO CAUSA
Description: An argument to reject a proposition because of the falsity
of some other proposition that seems to be a consequence of the first,
but really is not.
NON-SEQUITUR
Description: An argument in which the conclusion is not a necessary
consequence of the premises. Another way of putting this is: A
conclusion drawn from premises that provide no logical connection
to it.
PETITIO PRINCIPII
Description: Same as "Begging the Question" The argument assumes
its conclusion is true but DOES NOT SHOW it to be true. Petitio principii
has two forms:
1. P is true, because P is true.
2. P is true, because A is true. And A is true because B is true.
And B is true because P is true.
Similar to circular reasoning.
POST HOC, ERGO PROPTER HOC
Description: An argument from a premise of the form "A preceded B" to
a conclusion of the form "A caused B." Simply because one event
precedes another event in time does not mean that the first event is
the cause of the second event. This argument resembles a fallacy known
as a Hasty Generalization.
QUATERNIO TERMINORUM
Description: An argument of the syllogistic form in which there occur
four or more terms. In a standard categorical syllogism there are
only three terms: a subject, a predicate, and a middle term.
RED HERRING
Description: A fallacy when irrelevant material is introduced to the
issue being discussed, such that everyone's attention is diverted
away from the points being made, and toward a different conclusion.
It is not logically valid to divert a chain of reasoning with
extraneous points.
REIFICATION
Description: To reify something is to convert an abstract concept into
a concrete thing. Reification is a Fallacy of Ambiguity. Reification is
also sometimes known as a fallacy of "hypostatization".
SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF (AKA Fundi shuffle)
Description: The burden of proof is always on the person making
the assertion or proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special
case of "argumentum ad ignorantium," is a fallacy of putting the
burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion
being made. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something
is true unless proven otherwise.
SPECIAL PLEADING (DOUBLE STANDARD)
Description: Special pleading is a logical fallacy wherein a double
standard is employed by the person making the assertion.
Special pleading typically happens when one insists upon less
strict treatment for the argument he/she is making than he or
she would make when evaluating someone else's arguments.
STRAW MAN
Description: It is a fallacy to misrepresent someone else's position
for the purposes of more easily attacking it, then to knock down
that misrepresented position, and then to conclude that the
original position has been demolished. It is a fallacy because it
fails to deal with the actual arguments that one has made.
Example: Evolution says humans evolved from monkeys.
SWEEPING GENERALIZATION
Description: Also known by the Latin term "DICTO SIMPLICITER",
a Sweeping Generalization occurs when a general rule is applied to
a particular situation in which the features of that particular
situation render the rule inapplicable. A sweeping generalization
is the opposite of a hasty generalization.
TWO WRONGS MAKE A RIGHT (TU QUOQUE)
Description: Two wrongs never add up to a right; you cannot right
a wrong by applying yet another wrong. Such a fallacy is a
misplaced appeal to consistency. It is a fallacy because it makes
no attempt to deal with the subject under discussion.
UNDISTRIBUTED MIDDLE
Description: A syllogistic argument in which the middle term of
a categorical syllogism is not distributed in at least one of the
premises.
ARGUMENTUM AD BOZM NON-CHRISTI
Description: This is the falacy that a Christian cannot commit any crime
or ethicly irresponsible act. See "not true christian."
C. J. Henshaw - Fidonet: 1:250/820 - Internet: cjh@tcsconcordia.tor250.org
Coridon Henshaw - Fidonet: 1:250/820 - Internet: csbh@tcsconcordia.tor250.org
Brown-nose, Network! Ass kissing for Jesus!