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Secondary to Primary beam connections

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kulkarninm Posted:WedAug18,20109:42amPostsubject:OnemorequeryonBeamrelease
GeneralSponsor
Hellosafians,
Ihaveonemorequeryonbeamreleases.Pleaserefertheattachedimagefile.Asshowninimageone
shortbeam(Beam1)emergesfromcolumnandsupportedonBeamnumber2.NowwhenIobserve
bendingmomentdiagraminSTAAD,Beam1isbehavinglikecantileverandbeam2splitsintotwo
separatebeamssupportedoncantilever1.Nowmyquestionis,
1.Isstaadtreatbeamnumber1ascantileveronvirtueofstiffnessofcolumn?(whenBeam1is
shortinlength)
2.IsitpossibletoinstructStaadmodeltobehaveasiexpected?(Beam1restingonbeam2)
Apartfromthis,WhatisexactsignificanceofprovidingPartialreleasesinRCCstructures?Isthere
somethingtodowithredistributionofstressesinbetweenconcreteandsteel?Howmuch%ofpartial
Joined:07Nov2009
Posts:17
releaseisdesirableinRCCstructures.
Expertmayfindthisproblemelementarybut,Properadvicewillcertainlyhelptoimproveanalysis
senseofnovicedesignerslikeme.

Beam.JPG
Description:
Filesize: 15.77KB
Viewed: 550Time(s)

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sarfaraj.husain Posted:WedAug18,201011:38amPostsubject:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
...
iagreewithsangeeta.......sometimessecbeamsareloadedwithheavyequipmentloading.........inthis
caseMzhavetobereleased(withproperenddetailing)otherwisemuchhigherdepthofmainbeam
Joined:26Jan2003
Posts:90
willberequiredbecauseofheavytorsion(notbecauseofitsownloading)......

sarfraj

http://www.sefindia.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8120&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10 1/6
6/14/2016 www.sefindia.org::ViewtopicSecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections

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ishacon Posted:WedAug18,20102:39pmPostsubject:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
SilverSponsor
HiAll,

IthinkabetteralternateistogiveaverylowvalueofIxofmainbeam,say0.00001,
sothatitdoesnottakemuchtorsion.
Thesecondarybeamisdetailedsothat
thetopreinfattheendframingintomainbeamisminimal.
Joined:01Apr2008
Posts:148 V.P.AGARWAL

ISHACONSULTANTS(P)LTD
NEWDELHI110074
PH:01126301158
0919868262759
0919313452180
Quote:
OriginalMessage
From:drnsmani(forum@sefindia.org)
To:general@sefindia.org(general@sefindia.org)
Sent:Tuesday,August17,20108:09PM
Subject:[SEFI]Re:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections

HiAll,

Isomehowdonotlikereleasingtheendmoments,asinRCC,thejointsaremonolithicand
howdoweknowwhetherthestructurebehavesintheway,weintendedthemtobehave?

Iamhappytonotethatthesoftwareisgivingawarningthattherewillbeinstability,ifyou
attempttoreleaseendmomentsofasecondarybeamwhichissupportingotherbeams.What
thesoftwaresaysisavalidthing.Thoughyoumaycircumventitbyfollowingthesuggestion
givenbyErRahul,Ifeelthatitisnotagoodpractice.Whydoyouwanttoreleasetheend
moments?CanwenotcheckthebeamsforcombinedBMandTorsion?

Thisismypersonalopinion.IrequestotherexperiencedengineerslikeProf.ARC(asthis
kindofreleasemaybecriticalforlateralloads),ERBarua,ErVikaramjeet,ErRangarajan,Er
Mallick,andErBharsodatoexpresstheirviews.

Bestwishes,

Subramanian
kulkarninmwrote:Dearsafians,

IalwayscomeacrosstheproblemwhilemodelingframestructureinSTAAD.PRO.Someof
thestructuralengineersreleasesthesecondarybeamendmomentsMx,My,Mzsothatonly
reactionshouldgettransferedtoprimarybeam.Nowmyproblemis,ifsecondarybeam
supportingotherbeamsandrestingonprimarybeamisreleasedforthemoments,warning
forinstabilityoccurs.Howtorectifythisproblem?IsisOKifbeamsarepartiallyreleased?

PostedviaEmail

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Dr.N.Subramanian Posted:ThuAug19,20103:21amPostsubject:Re:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
GeneralSponsor
DearErAgarwal,

Yes.IfyougivelowIx,theanalysiswillnotshowanytorsion.Buthowthestructurewillknowthat?
TheactualIxwillbethere.

Noonehascommentedononemorepointthatis,theoriginaldoubtwastoreleasethemomentsat
theendconnectionofasecondarybeamwhichitselfiscarryingsecondarymembers.Thiskindof
structuralsystem,adoptedbyafewengineers,isnotefficient.

Joined:21Feb2008 Regards,
Posts:5048 Subramanian
Location:Gaithersburg,MD,
U.S.A. ishaconwrote:
HiAll,

http://www.sefindia.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8120&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10 2/6
6/14/2016 www.sefindia.org::ViewtopicSecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections

IthinkabetteralternateistogiveaverylowvalueofIxofmainbeam,say0.00001,
sothatitdoesnottakemuchtorsion.
Thesecondarybeamisdetailedsothat
thetopreinfattheendframingintomainbeamisminimal.

V.P.AGARWAL

ISHACONSULTANTS(P)LTD
NEWDELHI110074
PH:01126301158
0919868262759
0919313452180
Quote:
OriginalMessage
From:drnsmani(forum@sefindia.org)
To:general@sefindia.org(general@sefindia.org)
Sent:Tuesday,August17,20108:09PM
Subject:[SEFI]Re:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections

HiAll,

Isomehowdonotlikereleasingtheendmoments,asinRCC,thejointsare
monolithicandhowdoweknowwhetherthestructurebehavesintheway,we
intendedthemtobehave?

Iamhappytonotethatthesoftwareisgivingawarningthattherewillbe
instability,ifyouattempttoreleaseendmomentsofasecondarybeamwhichis
supportingotherbeams.Whatthesoftwaresaysisavalidthing.Thoughyoumay
circumventitbyfollowingthesuggestiongivenbyErRahul,Ifeelthatitisnota
goodpractice.Whydoyouwanttoreleasetheendmoments?Canwenotcheck
thebeamsforcombinedBMandTorsion?

Thisismypersonalopinion.IrequestotherexperiencedengineerslikeProf.ARC
(asthiskindofreleasemaybecriticalforlateralloads),ERBarua,Er
Vikaramjeet,ErRangarajan,ErMallick,andErBharsodatoexpresstheirviews.

Bestwishes,

Subramanian
kulkarninmwrote:Dearsafians,

IalwayscomeacrosstheproblemwhilemodelingframestructureinSTAAD.PRO.
SomeofthestructuralengineersreleasesthesecondarybeamendmomentsMx,
My,Mzsothatonlyreactionshouldgettransferedtoprimarybeam.Nowmy
problemis,ifsecondarybeamsupportingotherbeamsandrestingonprimary
beamisreleasedforthemoments,warningforinstabilityoccurs.Howtorectify
thisproblem?IsisOKifbeamsarepartiallyreleased?

PostedviaEmail

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rkumar Posted:ThuAug19,20106:41amPostsubject:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
...
DearSefian,

Joined:11Apr2010
Posts:85
Ifwedoreleasethemoments,thenweneedtotakecarethatthereleasedbeamisdesignedasa
Singlyreinforcedbeamandtheirwillbenonegativemoments.Ifitisdesignedasdoublyreinforced
negativemomentsmayarise,thismomentmaybetorsionforthemainbeamandthatmaybe
critical.So,pleasecheckbeamdesignbeforereleasing.

RAKESHKUMAR
TRUENOTES
BUILDINGDESIGNENGINEER

*"Pleaseconsidertheenvironment,takeaprintofthiscopyifureallyneedto".UseGently.

OnWed,Aug18,2010at4:36PM,forum@sefindia.org(forum@sefindia.org)>wrote:
[quote]DearDrNS

ItisacommonpracticetoreleaseMzforsecondarybeamstoavoidtorsioninSupportingbeams
howeveritisveryimportanttogiveamatchingendsupport(sectomainbeam)detailwhere
developmentlengthfortopbarsiscurtailedtoLd/3andnotld+10diausuallyadoptedforductile
joints.

http://www.sefindia.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8120&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10 3/6
6/14/2016 www.sefindia.org::ViewtopicSecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
bestregards
SangeetaWij

autoremoved

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sukanta.adhikari Posted:ThuAug19,20109:09amPostsubject:Re:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
GeneralSponsor
Thestatement

"Ifitisdesignedasdoublyreinforcednegativemomentsmayarise"doesnotseemtobeappropriate..

Doublyreinforcedsectionisdesignedtoincreasethemomentofresistanceinthesectionbyproviding
steelinthecompressionzone...

Regards,
S.Adhikari
Joined:26Jan2003
Posts:687

[quote="truenotesrakesh"]DearSefian,

Ifwedoreleasethemoments,thenweneedtotakecarethatthereleasedbeamisdesignedasa
Singlyreinforcedbeamandtheirwillbenonegativemoments.Ifitisdesignedasdoublyreinforced
negativemomentsmayarise,thismomentmaybetorsionforthemainbeamandthatmaybe
critical.So,pleasecheckbeamdesignbeforereleasing.

RAKESHKUMAR
TRUENOTES
BUILDINGDESIGNENGINEER

*"Pleaseconsidertheenvironment,takeaprintofthiscopyifureallyneedto".UseGently.

OnWed,Aug18,2010at4:36PM,forum@sefindia.org(forum@sefindia.org)>wrote:
Quote:
DearDrNS

ItisacommonpracticetoreleaseMzforsecondarybeamstoavoidtorsioninSupporting
beamshoweveritisveryimportanttogiveamatchingendsupport(sectomainbeam)detail
wheredevelopmentlengthfortopbarsiscurtailedtoLd/3andnotld+10diausuallyadopted
forductilejoints.

bestregards
SangeetaWij

autoremoved

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akjhacpwd Posted:SatAug21,20105:14amPostsubject:
SilverSponsor
Dearsirs
Shallweextendthisdiscussiontoendconditionsofslabsmonolithicwithbeams?If
beamsarepresentonallthefoursides,doesthesupportconditionbecomes"Continuousonall
edges"?IntheoldbookbyJainandJaikrishnaVolume2,chapter2whichdealswith
multistoreyedbuildings,alltheslabsareconsideredfixedbecauseofpresenceofbeamsandfora
panelof6mby6mC/C,slabdepthof13cmhasbeentaken.
Joined:26Jan2003
Posts:147 Regards

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sdec.in Posted:SatAug21,20105:36amPostsubject:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
SilverSponsor
DearMrJha

Ifbeamsarepresentonallfoursides,theslabwillnotbecomecontinuousunlessithasadjacentslab
panelsonallfoursides.Itwillbebettertoadopt,IS456criteriafordesignofcontinuousslabs,which

http://www.sefindia.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8120&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=10 4/6
6/14/2016 www.sefindia.org::ViewtopicSecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
showstheslabwillnothavefullfixity(wl2/12)conditionsandtheapplicablecoefiicientsarein
betweenasimplysupportedandfixedcondition.

bestregards
Sangeeta
Quote:
Joined:26Jan2003 OriginalMessage
Posts:473 From:akjhacpwd(forum@sefindia.org)
To:general@sefindia.org(general@sefindia.org)
Sent:Saturday,August21,201010:44AM
Subject:[SEFI]Re:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections

Dearsirs
Shallweextendthisdiscussiontoendconditionsofslabsmonolithicwithbeams?Ifbeams
arepresentonallthefoursides,doesthesupportconditionbecomes"Continuousonall
edges"?IntheoldbookbyJainandJaikrishnaVolume2,chapter2whichdealswith
multistoreyedbuildings,alltheslabsareconsideredfixedbecauseofpresenceofbeamsand
forapanelof6mby6mC/C,slabdepthof13cmhasbeentaken.

Regards

PostedviaEmail

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amarjeetsingh Posted:SatAug21,20101:00pmPostsubject:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
...
DearAll,

Joined:09Nov2008
Posts:129
Theoritcallytheendsofsecondarybeamwillalwayshavesomenegativemomentasitiscast
Location:newdelhi monolithicallywiththemainbeambutsinceminimaltopreinfisprovidedinthesecondarybeam
therewillbeahairlinecrackatthejunctionofthesecondarybeamwiththemainbeam.Thiswillhelp
releaseMzforsecondarybeams.

Themainquestionisofdetailingofthetopreinforcementaspointedoutbyfellowengineers.
cheers

amarjeetsingh

On8/21/10,forum@sefindia.org(forum@sefindia.org)>wrote:[quote]DearMrJha

Ifbeamsarepresentonallfoursides,theslabwillnotbecomecontinuousunlessithas
adjacentslabpanelsonallfoursides.Itwillbebettertoadopt,IS456criteriafordesign
ofcontinuousslabs,whichshowstheslabwillnothavefullfixity(wl2/12)conditionsand
theapplicablecoefiicientsareinbetweenasimplysupportedandfixedcondition.

bestregards
Sangeeta
autoremoved

PostedviaEmail

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vikram.jeet Posted:MonAug23,201011:36amPostsubject:SecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
GeneralSponsor
DearShAKJhaji

ByconsideringtheendslabpaneledgesupportedonedgeBeamasfixed,
mayrequireentireedgemomenttobecaredbytorsionintheedgebeam.Matter
maynotendthere,thecolumns/wallssupportingtheedgebeamneedtobedesigned
forthismoment.Thedesignbecomestoocomplexduecompatibilityofstructural
Joined:26Jan2003
Posts:2212 membersinvolvedinthechaintofacilitatetheslabpanelsafety.
Bettertorelyontheassumptionoftreatingtheedgeasdiscontinuous,though
inlieuofsometorsionalcrackingpermittedbyIS456.HoweverIfeelthat
edgebeammustbetackledindetailing(asdiscussedinearlierposton
mainsecbeamjoint)tolimitthetorsionalcrackingduetomonolithicnature
ofjointbetweenrccslabandedgebeam.

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6/14/2016 www.sefindia.org::ViewtopicSecondarytoPrimarybeamconnections
bestregards

vikramjeet

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