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1
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30 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
1
THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN
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PROCEEDINGS
OF
THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE
WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA
TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE.
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OFFICIAL REPORT
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Monday, August 5. 1974.
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The Special Committee of the Whole House of the
National Assembly of Pakistan met in Camera in the
Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at
ten of the clock, in the morning. Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada
Farooq Ali) in the Chair.
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31 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
2
PROCEDURE OF CROSS EXAMINATION
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Mr. Chairman: I think we will start just with in 5
minutes. The Attorney General is busy in my chamber
discussing the question with Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari
and he will be here with in two or three minutes.
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And again I will request the honourable members
that in the presence of the delegation and in the presence of
the witnesses, no controversial issues should be raised. The
Attorney General may be allowed to put the questions, and if
any honourable member is not satisfied with the question or
he thinks that the answer is evasive, he can send a chit to me
or to the Attorney General and if something of a very
important nature comes to the notice of any honourable
member, he can make a request and we can adjourn the
House for five or ten minutes. We can ask the witness to
wait outside and we can discuss the matter among ourselve.
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32 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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for two hours or for one day, let him be allowed to have a
free hand in cross-examination, and if the honourable
members feel that something is missing or lacking, they can
guide him and instruct him. Mr. Attorney General, have you
YZ Should we
3
anything to say? Have you anything to add?
call the witness? One thing also. I will request that during
the cross-examination the quorum may be kept 10 from this
side and 30 from that side. The honourable members can
come and go but the quorum may be kept intact.
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33 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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I will request the honourable members to be in their
seats. Can come nearer, to the unoccupied seats according
to their choice. If they want to sit where they are, it is up to
them.
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(The delegation entered the Chamber)
( Z4Z~w;z)
----------
OATH TAKING BY WITNESS OF
THE QADIANI GROUP
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Mr. Chairman: Now we will start the proceedings.
I will request the witness to take the oath.
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34 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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35 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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37 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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38 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( sg Z*
* Zi%)
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= 6X Y 1909B 16 Za ~Z X t VP ~ eg kg
lgz, 6 ~~yZgzZ 1 = ~ Z ~kZX H * cC
/HtZDM * ! Z%~ ~ ZgzZ;g7~k* 0 {ZzKZX
~X q ! ~QX H *y M ~ ~ X
uaB}p}g ~Y 1930~QgzZX ~Y 1929Hk* 0 y JZ
} Z! ~Y 1934g Z / wg e~ g~QX Hk* 0 yJZ
5E"
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You mean the people who
belong to Lahore Group?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: V; people who belong to
the Lahore Group or scattered individuals sometimes, who
don't take 'baiat' but they call themselves Ahmedi?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Every person who takes
'baiat' is a member of Jamaat-e-Ahmedia?
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41 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
v EG $ I)
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you said, Sir, that you
are elected to this office. Who elects you, who elects the
Imam?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: By an electoral college.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is an electoral college.
Will you please kindly tell us the composition or the number
of that electoral college?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Nearer excludes the farther
away.
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This office, is it for lifetime? ! Y YZ :g [
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is for life.
(* @t :Z*
@] * * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And where you were
elected, was there any other candidate who contested against
you? Or normally the election is unanimous?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The election is
unanimous..... One, two..... normally contests the election.
17
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44 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( D $Z,
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11
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, but the Khalifa is after
all a human being, according to you even if he is elected by
divine intervention?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is a human being who
leaves this world any moment if God so wills.
@hg * kZ y K
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( Y7gzm)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that is true. But
supposing he gots mentally or physically incapacitated, he
can fall ill, is there any rule?
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46 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
7]gzgzZ 7( y ) wz ! 7 :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He cannot fall ill?
77g F{zH :g [ )
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am asking you for
clarification. The Khalifa cannot fall ill physically?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: V; To that extent.
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Incapacitation of........ ( ~gzm)
13
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but supposing he gets
pasalysed bodily or physically or mentally?
,
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Bodily yes, but mentally no.
( 7, 6gK :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He can never suffer from
any mental illness?
( ?Y7g D ~g F L{zH :g [ )
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!* 7
47 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( YYH7sp)
Sir, is there any other body or organization within
the Jamat which can revise or modify or alter any order or
decision of the Khalifa or Imam?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I know that. But
Khalifa ~]gzx, after consultation, his order is final or...?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but I am just asking
you. ( V;gb7s \ M~17 :g [ )
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Legal position. If you pass
an order after consultation or without consultation with
your colleagues or with...?
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48 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
{gtg Ng LZ\ M/ Z ! w :g [)
( ?'*
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XH * Zi%
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My question is a very
simple one. Can they overrule you or can you overrule them,
legally speaking? In fact whatever may be the position, we
are not concerned.
! wZ Z :g [ )
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kZ { Zpci7|g ? Hci7 XZg y Z\ W* M
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They can't overrule me.
M7}{z :Z*
(h * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But you can overrule them?
MZgyZ\ M1 :g [ )
( ?h
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And the question of my
overruling them does not arise in the context I have just told
you.
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gzZ 5B}{z# ZY ( *@7Za wZ Zg y Z
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But you can overrule them?
22
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49 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( ?hMZgyZ\ M1 :g [ )
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And they don't overrule me. X*
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15
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you.
Sir, what is the significance of these three different
titles "Imam", "Khalifa" and "Amirul Momineen"? How
you or your Jamaat interpret them?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but you said that you
are Imam of the Jamaat.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you have not yourself
chosen the title of Imam? They call you?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh! No, no, they call me....
( =v ! 7! 7{zZ :Z*
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23
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50 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
!i! w M L LX {z H ~uTX D
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Amir-e-Ahmadis?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ! V; ! V; But belonging to
your school of thought. So, according to you, momins are ....
if I put it this way .... only these who belong to your school
of thought, those Ahmadis?
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51 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( ?*
c s Z% )
ngm}g zs~ :Z*
(p * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "of the momins".... not all?
~ L L :g [ )
( x :
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X #
szW ZzZ
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I want you to
clarify.
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c i kZ ! ! * * Zi%
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't pretend to be the
Amir of all the Muslims?
( ?7ZV x \ M :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Oh! No, no, no. Not all the
momins. ( 7x ! 7! 7! 7{zZ :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "Momins" means muslims,
isn't it?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, is Jamaat-e-Ahmadia a
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52 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
kZ n z V eg kg p :Z* * Zi%
~g x%kZgzZ ~g x%-qZ~Y 1962~* * v}X 4 Z
19
( *
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H7g V*!* Hg yiz%*
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A hundred and sixty eight thousand were Ahmadis, ~ 7* 0
qZ ._^g7g ~g x%) according to their Census Report.
-
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Too busy?
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c isxsZC* 0 w
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Could you please tell us,
how many have been converted in Pakistan in the past 20
years or so?
( *
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In Pakistan?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I am not asking the
population. I may come to that the converts?
28
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55 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
G3E
( 7eg kg V-Z )
"
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* Zi%
, z { z Z X ef 4 vbkZX ef
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, do you take interest or
your party, I mean, in politics also or you keep away from
politics?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Thanks God, no.
29
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56 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
} ! 7 :Z*
( !] Z. * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't take any interest?
f7p \ W :g [ )
( ?e
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We don't take any interest.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As a Jamaat I am asking.
)V; gb 7t~ :g [ )
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)! V ; :Z*
( 'Zg ) * Zi%)
21
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Everybody is a voter, they
can contest election. I know that. But as a Jamaat?
RzzC :g [ )
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( ?)
)
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As a Jamaat ....
) :Z*
( ') * Zi%)
f7z~
(e ()
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As a Jamaat, you don't
participate in politics?
f7z~
( ?e ) :g [ )
(\ W)
( 7e- J ` M LX 7* ! :Z*
* Zi%
*: V: w}) ) Z9 M * c g
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, can politics be
separated from religion in Islam?
(~xsZH ![ :g[)
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57 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
kZgzZX 7 X 7{ *
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no. No President,
( 7p
no Prime Minister, nothing whatsoever.~
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( ~ ( 7
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: As an organisation you
don't aspire to capture political power?
q ( \ M ) ) :g [ )
ng 7
( ?p
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. Xug I\ M t'
( ug I\ M t' ! 7! 7 :Z** Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am just asking for the
record.
( V;gb 7neg kgs~7 :g [ )
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* Zi%
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, according to you,
religion is a matter of heart and conscience?
( ?n;z<._\ M ! [ :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes.
( ! V ;Y :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And it's a relationship of a
spiritual nature between Imam and his Creater?
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59 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
23
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, Sir.
( ! [ V ;Y :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am referring ....
( 'V;g} !Zj~ :g [ )
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But will you agree, Sir, that
religion, in the sense that it is a matter of heart and
conscience, that is, what your feel, what you think, what you
believe, what your faith as, something nobody can interfere
with?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Nobody can interfere?
( ?Y7 Z :g )
g ! V; :Z*
X * Zi%
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In your thinking, you are
free; you can have any faith, you are free; you can believe
anything you want, you are free; but this faith, this belief,
this thinking has some outward expression also?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When you express your
33
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60 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
faith, when you say it, when you announce it or when you
proclaim it, it is likely to affect others also, it is likely to have
repurcussions also. But when it is only confined to thinking
believing, feeling, it doesn't. It is so or not?
y* Z Dg Z {oLZ \ W#
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WZ, Z Dg Z kZ
@7(Z z-
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( ?7*c (Z
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Very vague question. I am
afraid.
( ZwZtV{ Zp]gm~ :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will elaborate my question
further.
( Vz =+h'~ :g [ )
ZX ] }/
/ Z'Vz CKZ~'/ Z :Z** Zi%
24
(h M` Zzg :Z*
M7gzZh * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A religion has a ritual that
you can sacrifice a lamb?
!=\W gt~<-
M *
( ?h qZ :g [)
! ! VW ! V; :Z*
* Zi%
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Religion is affected also by
you expressing your faith, isn't it?
< g Z{oLZ $ + Y \ W :g [ )
( ? 7(Z HX *@Z ,
W*
@
X CY~C ]Z V; :Z*
* Zi%
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I want to know that religion
has also an outward expression which can affect other
things, people, situations. It is not just a matter of heart and
conscience. It remains a matter of heart and conscience only
if you think, if you believe, if you have a faith; but the
moment you give an expression to that faith, that belief, you
are likely to hurt somebody, you are likely to affect
somebody, you are likely to favour somebody?
^~C+Z<VLe 'Yt~ :g [ )
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;z t 7n ;z t ? i Z+
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( ,~g ZsVi Z+ 0Z ,
WZ
25
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Why you say this?
( ? VY (Z\ W :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because ....
35
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62 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( 'Y :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: 'Likely to hurt somebody'
why likely to hurt somebody?
VY Vzuz N (Vzuz eL L :Z*
* Zi%)
( ?N (
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am coming. You know,
Sir, I am not referring anything to you, to what you said.
~ Y \ W ! [ X V ;g WsZ ~ :g [ )
( \ W 6V;g} 7!Zj ]* !\ W
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no.
( ! 7! 7 :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just discussing
religion because ....
( 'YV; gnkZsc<~ :g [ )
'V~XVLe'p~s~V;s~ :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am trying to eleborate.
sz~ :g [ )
( V;g#
X Y :Z*
* Zi%
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because you said that
religion is something in which nobody should interfere. You
asked this Assembly that it should not involve itself in this, it
is a matter of heart and conscience. You said that this a
human right, a fundamental right.
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63 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
38
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65 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
V~ n ! 7 :g [ )
( ,wEZ
u] oa oj^e `^q 2867 :Z* * Zi%
Zg t X Za 7! Zy kZ ._ $ eZ@ M kZ
X Zg {z *y M ', ]i YZ= / Z't ~ Z
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6 VZg
27
X B7'* !nkZ~<gzZ s J Z Yz
m] gvm ] ] 287 0
}uzg Z ] LZ Ht*y M Xt~]* c M
kZ *
c n[, 6zZkZ * c nkZX z~" . _
]*! " . _g \ - qZgzZXH: ~ w LZ ng Z H
n YZ e7, 6kZ ~g Z)f kZ i Z *c Za 7 Z Y
'LZ~" . _#. }_"gzZBgzZg \
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, if I follow the Holy
Quran strictly, in any part of the world, you think, I will not
commit any offence?
Z w H \ W ! [ :g [ )
6 yW~/
,
( ?Vz7[ g Z x}~*~VZc
`
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I should not.
( Vz7~ :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supposing I want to marry
two/three wives in America ....
(VLe*
*V* Z,n :g [)
c &Bz~M%Z~/
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I ....
( '~! 7 :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just asking you. Will
39
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66 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( ?*
c ~* ~g7)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: , z I will come to this
again. Now I come to the Preliminary stage.
41
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68 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( *
c hz-
qZ~* ~g7)
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Throughout the world?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And how many of them are
in Pakistan?
0 ~yZgzZ :g [ )
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( g e*
c z]z Zi%)
X- 0Z} :Z*
J4035._} i Z+ * Zi%
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: At the time of the death of
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, what was the number of Ahmadis?
Have you any idea?
? Z HV-Z z wZZxZi% :g [ )
0Z\ M
( ? { i Z+
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Very rough idea.
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69 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And this is confirmed by
Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Mahmud in an address which
appeared in "Al-Fazal" of 5th August, 1934, which says
that:
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I mean he referred to it. He
doesn't say here that this is a wrong figure. I am just saying.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but he mentioned ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... it by the way that it was
56000.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, then after that we come
46
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73 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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74 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... or 40 lacs; or have there
been so many converts?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I am not referring
to the Census Report.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The figure given by you to
Mr. Justice Munir, your Jamaat ....
= \ Wg z ZZ :g [ )
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33
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"It is stated to me" not by whom. 2903
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, it is not clear. So, we
presume that perhaps the party concerned may have stated. I
would not accept Ahraris word for it.
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Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: No , no . Perha ps
somebody else.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but the Encyclopaedia
clearly says that it was stated there by Ahmadis. That may be
wrong but ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They say half a million
throughout the world ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... And at least half of them
are in Pakistan.
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77 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, Sir, to cut it short, if I
say that the number of Ahmadis in Pakistan is not more
than two hundred thousand, you cannot contradict me
through any document?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't like to ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I am asking you ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But can you suggest, can
35
you contradict me through documentary evidence, record,
your own Jamaat's record?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you. I rely on Munir
Enquiry Report, that is the document. So you are not
contradicting it?
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78 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Encylopaedia of Islam?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Nothing is official. Mirza
Sahib. If you bring your register, I am going to accept that.
There is no question of official. We are not going to
distribute property of members of any particular seat.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I just wanted to come at a
right number. I said if you could come to a right number of
the Ahmadis?
9 y ZM ) c t s Z :g [ )
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because you yourself are
not sure. If you had been sure ....
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79 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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80 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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83 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I wanted to
know.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They could do it.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I appreciate that they
should not do it, they ought not to do it; that is different. But
they are legally competent to do it, to repeal Article:20 and
to repeal Article:8. or any other provision?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: With that I agree.
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40
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Those are of political
nature, religious nature, but not of consitutional nature.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, now I come back to
your address. I am not going to quote a lot from it because
57
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84 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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X ( -) Understood
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am grateful. That part ....
( 'z{z!t] :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Subject to Law and
morality."
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. That means that
freedom of religion is subject to law, public order and
morality. That part is conceded then?
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41
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Of course, it is there.
( Ct :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Therefore, you take it for
granted. That is why you did not mention it. But then, Sir,
yo u p roceed further and yo u sa y in yo ur a dd ress
immediately after what I have quoted just now:
"In other words this constitution which is a source
of pride for us, guarantees to every citizen of Pakistan his
religion, that is to say the religion which he and not. Mr.
Bhutto or Mufti Mahmood or Mr. Moudoodi .... chooses for
himself. Whatever religion a citizen chooses, that is his
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86 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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88 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( 'Q y\ Mp ng NZ\ M/
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am submitting that if you
announce, then that means either a speech is called for as
you write ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I means some action ....
( ' :g [ )
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... to express ....
( 'ng Z :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Expression of one's belief.
( ng Z{oLZ :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... one's belief so that ....
44
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not practice on it.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When belief is expressed,
even there you claim, to this extent, I mean ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... that there should be no
interference by the State ....
63
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90 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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45
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is not?
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... do you still think that ....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: How we are going to find
out that he is a hypocrite?
! {zN`\ Mp :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But if we can find out, then
we can interfere. If he falsely does it?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I am just asking
you that if I personally know a person that he is a Muslim,
but for some worldly gain ....
qZ~ < n\ Mt wZ Z[ :g [ )
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Aaa, aaa.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... for some advantage ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... he falsely declares
himself to be a Christian ....
( ' |LZ {zn :g [ )
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... do you think, we still
65
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92 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know him personally.
X7hZV}Y7 Personally ~/ Z :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, I am not giving the
example. Sir, of a man who is about to be killed and to save
his life, he says, "I am a Muslim" or "I am a Christian" or
supposing a religions fanatic is going to kill some one
because he does not belong to his faith ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know that is permissible. I
am not taking that example.
66
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93 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( V;g7n kZwVt~ :g [ )
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am not taking the
case of even that person who, in order to save his life, makes
a false declaration. Suppose he is a Christian ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, yes I am not giving that
example. But I am just ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is one of the very
extreme examples in this case.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but there, Sir, if a
person has to save his life, it is permissible to tell a lie to
save his life, I think?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't think.
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94 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( &7~ :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I mean, i don't know, Some
time you sacrifice the truth in the very interest of truth. If a
man is innocent and somebody is going to kill him just
because he does not belong to his faith, and I say no he is
not that belongs to that caste or to that religion. It happened
near Khuzdar. There was a policeman, near about 1965 or
that time, there was a policeman travelling in a bus and
some of those people, travelling people, got hold of that bus
along with others. The policeman was not in uniform but
they found the uniform packed up in the bus. The policeman
and other people were taken away with the intention to kill
them. One of the Maulvis there who khew that this man was
a policeman, took oath on Quran and said, "I know that he
is not a policeman" to save his life. Do you think that man
committed a crime by telling a lie?
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95 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
48
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just saying this that
some time one may do it. But I am not taking these
examples. Sir, I am going to come to earth and take very
simple example.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, supposing, as we
have a lot of difficulties in getting admission in college these
days. You khow that, so we take a medical College for
instance Dow Medical College, Karachi, has got 200 seats.
Now there are about a thousand Muslim boys, all first
divisions, contesting for these 200 seats. But out of them, 10
are reserved for Minorities, Christians, Hindus, Parsis. Out
of 10, say 6 are reserved for Hindus, 3 are also one First
Divisioners, so they contest among themselves; 3 are
reserved for Christians, one for parsi. There is also First
Divisioners Parsi and he will go and take that seat. Now,
among the Christians, there are 6/7 candidates and there are
3 seats but there is only one Second Divisioner Christian
and the rest are Third Divisioners. Now I want to get into
that college. I have got a First Division, but not a very high
First Division. If I put it in my admission from: "Yahya
Bakhtiar ---- Christian", now you think the Principal of the
college, knowing very well, should not interfere.
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96 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
yg ZD g ZzyZ ,ngzZ 200~ T
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You have got no right to
declare your Christianity.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I have no right but I am
deceiving, I am cheating, I am falsely declaring that what I
say, because I know that this is a fundamental right and
nobody on earth can interfere and why should I not take
advantage? Do you think the world is not full of thieves?
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49
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Mr. Chairman: No, no the proposition has been
put by the lawyer and the witness has to reply to that
proposition. He may agree or he may not agree.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: There is no question of
agreeeing; but I say you know that there are cheats in this
world and you know that people cheat and you know that
people deceive.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Everyone of us should
condemn them.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, 'condemn' is one thing,
Sir, but if you are invested with some authority, you are the
Principal of a college, and you have been the Principal of a
College and when the form comes to you, and you know that
Yahya Bakhtiar, First Division, cannot get in because his
marks are low among the First Divisioners, but he says that
he is a Christian, now I can't question his faith, this is his
fundamental right, Article 20 guarantees it, so, therefore, he
has to be admitted, Sir?
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98 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
question at all.
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Mr. Chairman: It is up to you; it's up to you.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You don't approve of that
man?
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Mr. Chairman: No.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't approve of that man.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But you still think that the
state ......
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, but I am just
asking you.
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Mr. Chairman: V; It may be repeated.
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100 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
75
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102 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
76
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103 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, correct.
Malik Mohammad Jafar: So, I think that the
copies of this statement ....
Mr. Chairman: Yes.
Malik Mohammad Jafar: .... should, as the
statement goes, ....
Mr. Chairman: Yes, I am looking ....
Malik Mohammad Jafar: .... should be prepared
so that they can study and ....
Mr. Chairman: I am looking in to the matter. So
far as the examination-in-chief is concerned, every member
has got the copy.
Malik Mohammad Jafar: Yes. I am mentioning
the Cross- examination.
Mr. Chairman: Yes. For the Cross- examination.
I will have to make double arrangements. I will discuss this
matter with my Secretariat. Today, I will discuss it and I will
54
see that the entire record is available before the debate
opens. I think the debate will be after 20th.
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Malik Mohammad Jafar: Yes.
Mr. Chairman: By that time we will prepare the
record.
Malik Mohammad Jafar: Yes; and copies
78
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105 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
should be supplied.
Mr. Chairman: Copies of the Cross- examination.
(Interruption)
No, no, that has been decided by the Steering
Committee; the questions shall remain with the Attorney-
General.
Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro: We should be
given a copy ....
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No, Sir, after writing, Sir, we should be given a copy
after you have finished.
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SUPPLEMENTARY QUESTION FOR CROSS-
EXAMINATION
Mr. Chairman: - qZ YZ One thing I may also
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point out. - qZ Questions ~H
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be handed over to Mr.Aziz Bhatti and to Moulana Zafar
Ahmad Ansari, so that the Attorney- General is not
disturbed by the Chits. So during the break, the Attorney-
General will receive these questions and will examine them
55
and whatever possible course is adopted Attorney- General
will adopt.
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106 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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107 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
57
CROSS- EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI
GROUP DELEGATION
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, the Attorney- General.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, Sir, you agree that a
Christian boy or girl, who has applied for admission to a
Medical College, should not be deprived of his right of
admission because of false declaration of a Muslim boy?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is an exceptional case
and exception can only prove the rules. They are not
converted into a general rules.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I request you, Sir, that if, in
such a case, the Principal finds that the declaration is false,
he should or should not interfere, he should or should not
question that?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If one is sure. And one
seldom is.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Just I presume that the
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109 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... this freedom to
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110 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
the evidence comes on the record that the boy, who applied
and pretends to be a Christian, is in fact a Muslim ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But if he ....
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if he admits in the
court that I am a Muslim but nobody can question my right
to declare?
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If we come to that extent,
my reply is in the negative.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Even then we should not
interfere?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: V; Should not interfere.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Christian boy should
be deprived of his right?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't know. We should
not question his profession.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Anybody can declare?
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112 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
59
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Anybody can declare; and
that is enough in the ordinary circumstances of the case.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A court should not
interfere, the Government should not interfere, the Principal
sohould not interfere?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The example that is before
us is that he does not go to the court but goes to the
Principal.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but supposing, as I
said, the boy files a writ petition in the High Court. The
Principal does not question, as you say it is his ritght.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If the petition goes to the
High Court, then the judge will decide on the evidence he
receives.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, will the judge be in a
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113 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, in all these forms
they say that: "I hereby declare that these facts given in the
form are correct and true to the best of my knowlege."
There is a sort of affidavit; complete declaration is given.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Let us take another
example. If a person declares that he is a Muslim and
believes in five fundamentals of Islam, the "Arkan-i-Islam"
but he doesn't perform Haj even when he can possibly do
that, and he doesn't pay any Zakat, would you believe in the
profession?
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attention to a chapter in Muslim history. Those Muslims
who refused to pay Zakat- I mean Ansars and Muhajereen
both- and refused to pay, they were Munkrain of Zakat, were
they not deprived of their right to be called Muslims and
Jehad was ordered against them?
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116 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No. There are two things,
let me clarify this; one thing is not to pay zakat, the other is
to declare that ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Munkareen, I said.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Munkareen?
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Two things: one is zakat,
the other one is just the act, you know, doesn't pay.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but ....
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117 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 7 but ....
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118 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Interpretation ~ ! # rZi% {z/ Z :g [
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I am giving you an extreme example. Supposing an
man says that: "I am a Muslim but I don't believe in the
Holy Prophet" ....
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I am not being disrespectful. I hope you will not
consider that I am being disrespectful. I have got all the
regard for you. I know you are defending a cause, and you
know I am performing a duty. But please see these are not
extreme examples. Sometimes we have to go to the extreme
to clarify the position.
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119 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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120 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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I am just asking you. If anybody denies one of the
essentials of Islam....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... can you declare him as a
non- Muslim?
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I would not take that example because you call it an
extreme example.
N o w , Sir , yo u k no w t ha t , in Sa ud i A ra b ia
non-Muslims are not allowed to visit the holy places ....
Mecca and Madina. Supposing a Jew in Holand or Belgium
is engaged by the Israeilies as their spy and then he makes a
declaration and obtains a passport that he is a Muslim. I
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123 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: False declaration.... not his
profession.... he would be arrested for submitting a false
declaration.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, Sir, the point is that
somebody can question his declaration if he says, "I am a
Muslim?"
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course. ( Ci7 Kg Z :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, then you agree that
some authority, is there who can question a declaration
about religion?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The authority which is
concerned with a man who submits a false declaration.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, ....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, of course.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is exactly what I say,
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124 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
Sir, that you agree that this right to announce what one's
religion is, or the declaration what one's religion is, is
subject to restriction?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is something else....
false declaration. To submit a false declaration, which is
proved by investigation by the authority competent to do
that, this is someting else.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no. I will ask you
again. Sir, I think I have not made myself clear. Do you
agree that if a person makes a false declaration or any kind
of declaration, somebody else has an authority to examine it,
enquire into it, question it, about his religion? If I fill in a
form....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, not about his religion,
but about his declaration.
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126 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but ....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He has to be questioned
about the declaration which he makes ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, ....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... which he makes to the
authority, not about the faith which he has got.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I put it in a different
language. If a person goes to Saudi Arabia, who in fact, is a
Christian or a Jew ....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But how do you know?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In fact, I said.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, ....
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is presumed. So, when
....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: First you persume it. Then
you put that gentleman before a court.
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130 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not exception. It is the
general proposition.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This is my answer.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: A declaration that "I am a
Muslim", I say, if I make it in good faith, if should be
accepted?
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If I make ....
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If I make it in good faith?
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That means that I am
honest to God. That is what I mean by this that if I make
this in good faith, I am honest to God.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but if I give an extreme
example that the man was not honest to God or to the man?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The extreme examples are
exceptions and the exceptions can only prove the rule, that is
the point.
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131 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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71
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They may or may not. But
here a Christian boy is deprived of his seat if we accept your
first proposition. But if we accept your second proposition,
wherein you say that it should be made honestly, then the
boy will not be deprived of his seat, but then the Principal
will interfere.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is he?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am talking on the basis of
evidence.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If proved?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If a person himself says?
Sir, I am taking this example.
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133 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( V;Y :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: .... b y the D istrict
Magistrate .... ( s$ 7e :Z*
f@ * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ....on the basis of his
declaration and oath he gets the certificate and he gets the
admission.
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73
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We should condemn his
acts .... ( e#wdZyZkZ :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I know, but will the
Principal of court interfere or not? Or they should enter .....
Z ~nkZ ,c ^g HpX V } Y :g [ )
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c ,
( '{ z*
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... because the first depends
on the evidence before the court ....
( z, 6] t :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. So it means that on
evidence, if it is found false, the court can interfere?
^g CY* Z] p! V; :g [ )
0 K/
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If the evidence is there, they
should decide accordingly.
*,
( e* ] yZX ] :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That means ....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: That is obvious.
108
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!* 7
135 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
!t :Z*
( C] * * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, someone has to
enquire? You give this right to somebody to enquire into the
fact whether this person has made a false declaration or a
true declaration?
!kZX } h: : :g [ )
]*
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In some cases, yes.
( V;~V gP :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes?
( ?V; :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In some cases, yes.
( V;~V gP :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. I do not say in every
case. Normally it is not needed.
! X ~ ]gC H7~ :g [ )
]gzkZ xk*
77
( C,
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I am sorry to
bother you because you raised a question of fundamental
right no.20 and the Constitution has got other fundamental
rights also.
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q
( t ~ Cv~g2gzZ *
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, yes.
( Y Y :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now. Article 18 deals with
109
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136 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
* Cs~ :g [ )
( V;g { e*
X V; :Z*
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M r. Y a h ya B a k h tia r: .... to show that
fundamental rights are subject to certain ....
( ozV- * :g [ )
0 Pt ~ C
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The fundamental?
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... restrictions, some
qualification. They are not absolute. Now, Sir....
( ! [ [ ZX 7y Z{zX zu :g [ )
75
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no. That means they
are absolute .... ( {z! 7Y :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But, Sir, ....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... because these exceptions
only prove that the rule, these exceptions you mentioned
here only, prove that the rule is absolute.
pX C $
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* Zi%)
(rgwC$ U{zgV ]
"*
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, thousands of persons
are not qualified; a few hundred are qualified. Only
qualified can practise. So this is no exception to prove the
rule. This a very strict qualification ....
DRP X D 7Rv Vzg ZD! [ :g [ )
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: All right, let us ....
( :Z*
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138 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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140 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
y tYX: ~*
0- :Z*
qZ~ t ~ C * Zi%)
( H
*c nVE * 0ZZg2t
0 g Z+
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Honest people?
0ZZ :g [ )
( ? Mg Z+
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, that is understood, you
know.
( Y\ M H
* 0ZZC! V ;Y :Z*
c nVzg Z+ * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no. Supposing I say,
Sir, I start business and I call myself Lever Brothers and I
also produce soap and call it Lux soap, similar label, similar
wraping ....
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gig Z, * TV *
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( ' , 6zZ (zgzZf(zgzZVr g
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Has there been an example
of this? ( ?Z(Z wVkZ} :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes.
( ! V;Y :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There is?
( ? V :Z*
* Zi%)
77
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, yes.
( ! V;Y V;Y :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: So, I am asking this that we
should be very careful.
( exgg ( V )nkZ :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is why I am giving
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141 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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142 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
their soap. You are trading in their name and, therefore, you
must change the label, you must change the name of your
firm, that they are registered. So, freedom or trade is limited
by many considerations that you can't usurp someone else's
right. You can't usurp someone else's trade.
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7V* !zg z]g tpkZ , ZuzfX ,
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78
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, if religion, say
christionity, is the monopoly of a certain group then no
other group ....
m{ - Z ! k ~ <Z ! V; Y :Z *
qZ < |/ * Zi%)
\z/
( ~g Z {g YZ)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no ....
( 77 :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... can have the label of
christianity.
gzZ H :Z*
( Y7f |\z/ * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I am not insinuating
anything, please I am just dealing with the restrictions on
fundamental rights that, in principle, these rights are
restricted by Law.
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143 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
6g ! V ;Y :Z*
(, * Zi%)
79
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We are supposing the
law....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As far as one's faith is
concerned, there is no group which has got monopoly of any
faith.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, Sir, I have not come to
that. Yet I am just on the principle of restriction.
~ Z X *
c M 7, ! kZ ~ Z ! [ 7 :g [ )
6 ]*
!ZV- *
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You are moving towards
that direction on a very narrow and muddy road.
}AgzZ $ qZ X g Y sZ \ M :Z*
e.- * Zi%)
( 5 Zg
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. I am not. I have not
gone that I may come to it; but it will not be in this form or
this shape.
6Z~! 7Y :g [ )
( 7~]ggzZ^kZ1V M,
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: All right.
( YZ :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just asking that, on
principle, if a person takes advantage of somebody ....
@* Z-
VZ {+ Z wZ HV7s~ :g [ )
qZ/
( V
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You are right, you are
perfectly right, but these examples, to my mind.... I am very
118
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145 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
i ,
6 & LZy - 6& LZ {zX 7
qZX D, t nV|
'Bt~f* !{z V ZX k,
7
81
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: His practice is only
confined to prayers or it is more than that, some rituals are
also involved?
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And D * ! , 6 ,6 V; z :g [
( '* !tV@ \ M ) you may have seen those cases.
! V;V;~ :Z* * Zi%
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X D7%f Z* c ( l Z q p Z ,6V;z) Act
X V; :Z** Zi%
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148 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
X V; :Z** Zi%
82
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'~gzZ k* 0 }
N} +
* hy= Y { zQ , zb k* 0 kZ/ Z :Z* * Zi%
83
X Zz _
Is this not the freedom of CtgzZ gzZ :g [
\ M 7 Interference ( ? 7~ Zi M It H ) religion?
'/ ZB
X 7V ;z7[z i Z V :Z* * Zi%
Freedom of trade Zg Y }/ ZgzZ :g [
?7{z Z ,7( ,
WZ ) Effect , 6( ]g ~ Zi M )
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'~X V ~ :g [
~
@ ~gzZV s~' :Z* * Zi%
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6 Z Z\ *
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'~* ] :Z* * Zi%
The state should ]i YZ \ M :g [
( ? $ Z~] 5yZ# ) interfere in these matters?
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not interference in the
freedom of trade. ( 7 Z~]g ~ Zi Mt)
z, f \ M X Y @
6 e y v% {zW Zz kZ
' 'tpkZ\ M & + i,RX
't :g [
84
X ~ e
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The Constitution says:
"Any lawful profession or trade."
Now, this was lawful when the fundamental rights
came into existence. Then the law was promulgated after
that ....
Jz kZt X]g *
i W- c &i W Hg2 :g [ )
*kZy X *
( Z* c M~znch~ C
-
J#
ZX
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then it was not lawful after
A :Z*
the promulgation of the law.( ;g: t$ * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The law, as Article:8 our
Article:8 says similar the Indian parallel Article says
Corresponding Article.
i ~i Zy*zy bZgzZ8i y :g [ )
( 'y 9
't= :Z* * Zi%
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Any law which is in conflict
with ....
'?t\ M=X V M IYZ , (~ :Z* * Zi%
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*7nZZ,
?e* 6kZYtB' :g[
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85
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151 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
X V;g M~,6Zt :g [
Clash Q {z7*
XH !{zX 7 :Z* * Zi%
? Mormons Xt<yZ7y/ ZX7 :g[
X 77 :Z* * Zi%
'Hn\ M ~ :g [
X V; :Z*
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This is not ~ Mormans ~M%Z' :g [
only allowed but....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Let them solve their
problems, let us solve ours.
( ,LZX ,iwZLZ {z :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, we are concerned with
the freedom of religion all over the world. You have got
Ahmadis there also, you have to worry about their welfare.
V ;zX ~ * x < ~ Zi M :g [ )
( eyZ\ MX ~Z
yM
' ~Z}g X 77 :Z* * Zi%
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no.
( '77 :g [ )
'7 Clash V ;zyZ|gzZ' :Z* * Zi%
6 gx ) Generally ~X 77 :g [
X V H ( ,
We are...
X V }uz:gzZ' :Z*
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86
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You have relief on
declaration of human rights because.
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!* 7
152 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
send you to jail for five years of 7 years for bigamy, for
disrupting our society. We do not accept this much freedom
of religion." So, the state could interfere?
@7t ^ggzZ' :g [ )
9^ggzZ *
?Y Zzi ZMx/~ nw] *
` c w *
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( e Z#Q Dt7~ Zi M IgkZX H[ Zy
87
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The state commits one
type of blunder that gentelman commits another type of
blunder.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now I take another extreme
example, Sir. Supposing a Hindu lady at Noshki or
Tharparkar, in Pakistan, says that she want to observe their
old Hindu law .... satti .... and wants to burn herself with her
dead husband.
g *
0 * wV~uz~ [ Z :g [ )
c w,nX V 8
gzZ~ y *0 X VSe * 6 4L Ly zy~ 9y{zy-
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I do not know of any such
law of satti in Hindu Mazhab. ( <)
( ~<zy7Dy 4, Z= :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but supposing that
we....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: But there is no such law.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: They used to parctise this.
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154 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
?7 * @t :g [
X;g*@._]* @7._<{zp :Z*
cZzgX;g* *Zi%
But ?H < yZ X ] * c Zzg Zg #zy :g [
( <CZkZ {zp ) they call it religion.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Why don't we ....
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But, no, you cannot deny
that?
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Right. X ,wVxs Z\ M
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just sa ying,
supposing....
( ,n , 6gn* !~ :g [ )
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156 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( ] * 0Z<[ Z :Z*
!Vg+ * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sects?
( ? :g [ )
There are ~ - qZC {z Sects ! V; V; :Z*
* Zi%
qZ ) hundreds, thousand onece schools of ....
qZg ZD-
( -
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supposing somebody starts
a new sect in a religion ....
fqz*~<v,n :g [)
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X ! V; :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... he also has the
freedom? ( ~ Zi M kZkZ H :g [)
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I am talking ....
X e]i YZ~w}kZ :Z*
* Zi%
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I have taken the
extreme example, that supposing, a group of Hippies in
Pakistan.... we have got a lost of Hippies these days .....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Are they humans?
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157 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
KZ {zH :Z*
( ?y K
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Of course, I hope you will
not deny them that right?
@yZ~! :g [ )
( B: hty Z\ M V*
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I did, in England and ....
( 'gzZ Ht~ Z ~ :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These Hippies?
43X
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... they accepted my
version. !~VrZ :Z*
( Ht]* * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These Hippies declare,
announce, proclaim, that they are Christians of Hippy sect,
and then they further announce ....
4X3
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4X3
( }t+h't * !gzZ -F
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Have they been punished
for this? ( BZwkZyZ H :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Nobody can punish them.
( Y}7ZwyZ :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then that question is quite
clear. ( s wZQ :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but I am asking further
question when I come to their rituals. Supposing they
further say that marriage is not an institution, with divine
sanction. Christ never married. Therefore, all sex relation
91
are.... promissible, all sorts of them. One declaration. Then
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158 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
they further declare that man was born naked and he has
the right to go about naked everywhere. That is the second
declaration. Now this is the religion. Thirdly, they say that
human sacrifice, ritual, feelings is good for human......
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is that a problem for
Pakistan?
0 H :Z*
( Za wg+Z~y * * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No Sir. I am just asking a
proposition, that if they declare this is our religion and we
call ourselves Christians, and they practise is then we have
come to practise, they start going naked in the streets. Do
you think that the state should interfere?
| LZ {z/ Z V ;gn ~ ! [ 7 :g [ )
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Subject to morality.
( ] Z :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So you agree that ........
( '1t\ M :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Subject to morality yes, I
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159 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( oz~ Zi M I)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So you agree that there are
restrictions on freedom of religion?
+ V*
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( $
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: There are restrictions, and
they should be very wisely complied with.
(*
*Zc, ',
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c * * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And those restrictions have
to be judged by?
0 yZgzZ :g [ )
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: By the competent authority.
0 Kg Zi W :Z*
( k* * Zi%)
( $y Kg Zi W)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Competent authority. That
is, they will make law and the court will carry out public
morality?
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160 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( ?N Zz)] Z z, c >gzZ
'V *
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: By the competent authority.
( Zzpgi WKg Z :Z*
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92
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, by the competnet
authority. I do not want to ask you further questions
because you mean legislature and courts. One will make the
law and the other will interpret.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: By competent authority I do
mean competent authority.
!ZX Kg Zi WVH~ :Z*
( Kg Zi W* * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you do not want to
define it any further?
( Kg Zi WT e* h'kZ\ MgzZ :g [)
*7=+
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I need not.
h'= :Z*
( 7]gz =+ * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And you don't mean ....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is quite clear.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. So, this freedom of
religion is subject to law; the law cannot say that inspite of
the fact that a particular group of people ...........
ny < ~ Zi M t p kZ :g [ )
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161 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( xs Z }~ pI-
Z, qZX DwEZ~ VszkZ Morality
Morality { z -
qZgzZ * c ( t Z) Code of Morality -
In the very nature of man. X g+ 0Z ] yK KZ ( t Z )
g~{z}, 6zZT ~kZ\Z. } {z( ~ T Z )
Morality t t g+ 0Z ] yZ pX N 7 yZZ , 6 \vZ
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(}g Y C{z /G J4X3 e (- qZ } i }
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93
t Z Q {z * n kZ t V t Z *
@/ ! t yZ X G
X ( ozt Z) Subject to Morality
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Subject to morality, but the
concept of morality changes from time to time, from area to
area, and from place to place.
gf t Z1X o z t Zz {z :g [ )
( zz((X Lg m+
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As for as a non-religious
type of morality is concerned, you are right. As far as Islam
is concerned, the fundamental truths and realities of
morality do not change ever.
9]* JV :Z*
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7LZz] ZgzZtwZ ~ C
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( Dsp
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. But if a person does not
observe "Purdah" or goes about semi-naked, do you call it
immoral? In some cases, it will not be considered immoral.
135
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162 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
4* c {, @g (Z 7{,
6 " gzZ * Z !7Y :g [)
6 /
( Y7Z+ $t~Vg}Z)kZ\ M H * @Q^,
'
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Why call it immoral? Call it
against the laws of Quran.
$ :Z*
( s y M tX VY Z+ * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You call everthing against
the law of Quran? Not ....
('7?}sy M H\ MqC :g[)
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I call everything against the
law of Quran when we find a law in Quran about it.
y M V Vs y M qkZC ~ :Z** Zi%)
( N *
0 y nkZ~
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but if ....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... not otherwise.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... a person is a Christian
and he says that it is my right, I am not a Muslim ....
qZ :g [ )
y~X hZt H{z |-
( V7
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He has got every right. You
cannot interfere.
M7 Z\ MX h |kZ I (ZG :Z*
(h * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He can go about naked?
( }Q ^{z e :g [ )
94
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Not naked, without
"purdah".
6%X 7^ :Z*
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136
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163 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( ~wV&5- !kZ~X H
qZ~}g *
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is it a fact?
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am just giving you a
ridiculous example.
( ~wV&5- qZ~}g * !kZ~ :g [ )
\g-gzZiZz~Y 1970~V C\ M~ :Z* * Zi%
-4G3X
H\ M 0( F) Hippies HVrZwZtV;zX H{gz
7{z+
kZpX Dg Z / 0iV K
KZ -
q ,4} 7Z~X Zg
6 yZ= X V 8 { ]g *
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c X V *
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95
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$ *,6 y ZgzZ e g ZZ K KZ yK
KZ t {z X 3
X * @Za wZ], F qzg
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, all these
examples were simply meant to show that freedom of
religion, as given, is subject to restrictions, and it may be by
law. All I was submitting was that this freedom of religion is
subject to restrictions which could be made by law, imposed
by law. That was all I was saying.
~ kZX ~ BVtgT[ :g [ )
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Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: Very carefully and
extremely rationally applied.
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165 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
139
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166 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( *
* Zi%)
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I am sorry.
( < s :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The point is simple....
"Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order
their lives in the individual and collective spheres in
accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam..."
So, that means that the Legislature Will see to it that
it frames laws which require the Muslim to live their lives in
accordance with the requirements of Quran and Sunnah as
interpretted by different sects?
~ ZZ y * @L Lp ZX { zZ7 Z :g [ )
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]Z ZgzZ
( X1x|yZVZZ~tL <gzZu * 0 y M
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: V; as interpretted.
( VrZ 6 :Z* * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That means there is a duty
imposed on the Legislature to make laws in religious
matters? That is my first question.
H*
c + 6 i y > p kZ :g [ )
Z n,
( wZZtX 7(Z HX}~i y ~gZI
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: We should not generalise.
* 7{ :Z*
( ce * * Zi%)
97
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am just asking that
because they have to make laws to see to it that they live
141
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168 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
142
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169 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
M y {zV ;g~ t :g [ )
X h
ng h y ~ }g *
p 0 gzZ VZ Z
! kZ g *
( '[ t]*!~uzX
( ._+
Z ~ C
~i y )
Mirza Nasir Ah m ad: In the liht o f the
fundamental belief....
( 'Z NZ ~ C ng hy :Z*
p * Zi%)
98
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes.
( V;Y :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... of every sect.
( C :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are going, Sir, in
deatils. But, Sir, I am saying in principle you give this power
to the Legislature?
]*! wZ~X g Y~ ,\ M [ :g [ )
(* c h ~i y t\ My ZV;g
:tV;g Y~( , ) Detail n kZ~ :Z* * Zi%
X N Yw( , ) Detail
You can explain and add to X 7Y 7 :g [
anything which you say in answer to my question. I am not
( ]z [ Z CZX h
J, M#s z~ [ ZwZ}\ M ) ....
M
( h
X 7X V :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... suggesting that. But I
am just saying that in principle this is a duty imposed by the
Constitution?
143
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170 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
X }kX :g [
X 2:g M ( g-qZzLZ ) :Z* * Zi%
This is Introduction. Yes.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is Article:2.
( 2:it :g [ )
In the Introduction. Very wise. ! V; :Z*
* Zi%
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And if you could kindly tell
us what are the implications of this; what does it mean?
'\ M H :g [ )
kZX Z H kZCtx{ Z,
( ?D M,
'} H
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is quite clear. Islam is the
religion of the State.
( xsZ<#X ]* qZt :Z*
!s - * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It means that, in our
Constitution, politics and religion are not kept separately.
We are not a secular state and that....
(t :g [ )
g {e{e<gzZ
( 7#I)X
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I don't know. To my mind,
it means that the politics takes on itself the responsibility to
guard the interests of the religion.
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173 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( g Z)f <
(
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, exactly, because of the
difference.... ! :g [)
( X 9*
Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: Because something
different. And it is not the mixture of the two.
% t Vz yZt gzZ Z,qY :Z*
* Zi%)
(7
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... that, under the
American Constitution, it is provided that the State shall not
establish any religion or another, it will not side with one
sect or another; it will be absolutely neutral in religious
matters. But ....
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101
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They also mean that
State will not side with one religion or the other.
qZ #X V ;Y :Z*
( }7B <m{- * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but here ....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It only says on the opposite
side, you know, that the politics of this country takes upon
itself the responsibility to safeguard the interests of Islam.
o kZ Y \ M ] * ! tO Z p :Z*
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( VZ ~g Z)f n xs Z#
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes, that is what I say.
( V; g~ ! V;Y :g [ )
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174 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
6kZHVLe*
( ? YnZ Z, * n}
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He could neither be pious
nor great.
( g *
0 k,
F Z. (: Y Z: M (Z :Z*
}:gz Z Z , * Zi% )
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If he is not a Muslim?
Z~]gZ :g [ )
( 7y{z/
Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: No, i f he files this
declaration, how could you call him a pious man and a
great man?
(gzZ skZ\ M *
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M
( h
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but he makes a false
declaration. People say: "Well somehow we made a mistake;
we want to ...."
: vX *
@yZ * qZ {zpX 7 :g [ )
N-
T e t-
' qZ-qZ b: L L
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, if he files such on
horrid declaration, then he is neither pious nor great.
0 : {z *
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( M Z ,
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103
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. I am just asking.
Supposing a person....
qZ,nV; gnt~X 7 :g [ )
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It is not possible.
( 7et :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No ....
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177 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( 7Y :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: A pious man to file a false
declaration?
( }ce *
N{zn M g *qZ :Z*
0- * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, let's take an example
neither a Christian nor a Hindu. Supposing a person who
does not believe in one, or two of the essentials of Islam....
: |{z:X efwV- qZ! 7Y :g [ )
c-
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( g Z z
X VV :Z* * Zi%
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... like he denies Zakat, is
Munkir of Zakat, and he files a declaration that 'I am a
Muslim', and still he says he is a Muslim....
@ I > 2i {z X > 2i } :g [ )
X *
gzZ > 2iG
( Vy~ Hg ZZ * !gzZVy~ * @ce {zB
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And he ....
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... still says he is a
Muslim.... ! :g [)
( y{z Hg ZZ *
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ! V ; Can he say? A pious
Muslim files a declaration and ....
('Y (Z{zHX}ce *
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0- * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not talking of a pious
Muslim. ( ;g7]* 0 ~ :g [ )
!y g *
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I am; I am talking
about him. And the authority declares that he is not. Just
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178 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
154
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181 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
156
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183 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
6kZy { :Z*
c C=X H H,
( Y * * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Chief Election
Commissioner can see. But the conduct ....
( ' Y$Zr :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Is it the Chief Election
Commissioner? ( ?$Z~]gkZ :Z*
* Zi%)
107
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... of the President
cannot be questioned in the court of law.
6& gg :g [ )
c VZ7~^g,
( YY *
Mirza Na sir Ah m a d: Is it the Elec tio n
Commissioner who decides....
@$Zr~Vg+Z :Z*
(* * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes.
( ! V;Y :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... in such cases ....
( '~] 5y Z :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. He scrutinizes the
form; he has to see to it ....
@y Yzxg ! V;Y :g [ )
(*
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... that whether he is
qualified for Presidentship ....
( IZn]g Z{z :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. And he is to take oath
before him.
t kZkZgzZ ! V;Y :g [ )
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... that he is qualified or
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184 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
158
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185 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
MeysX 7 H$r :g [)
( h
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No .....
( ! 7Y :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... for the Presidentship or
the Prime-Ministership.
c n}]g Z :g [ )
( na]g Ziz*
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Supposing a Christian is
faithful to himself and does it ....?
( nkZ * qZ, n :Z*
@VZ |- * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, .....
( 77 :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... then he takes the oath
before the Election Commissioner....
($
A*c VZt $ZkZ :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, ....
( 77 :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: .... the Election
Commissioner has got the right to refuse to take his oath or
not? * (7h$Z :Z*
( } g* * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I am not talking of
oath yet; that comes after the election. I am at the stage of
filling nomination papers. When the nomination papers are
filed, the Chief Election Commissioner will look at them.
The first thing he is to see is that the papers carried a
certificate that a person is 45 yesrs old. If the person is 30
years old, the Chief Election Commissioner say, "Well, I am
159
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186 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
110
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: My opinion would be
formed on the knowledge of the law....
Z V Y} z Z Zg K Z ~ : Z *
= y # * Z i% )
( 'D
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Will you please....
!$\ M H :g [ )
( ?, *
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... and not otherwise.
( 7:gz :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... let me explain the case
again? ( V* !z~ :g [)
@R{g *
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: V; Yes, yes, vZuZ
b
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now you have said that if a
person announces, declares, proclaims, that he is a Muslim,
nobody has any right to question his declaration.
@yZ-
XyX* Z\ M :g[)
qZ/
((7hnZZ,6yZkZVy~H*
!
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Quite.
! :Z*
( ! * * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, if a person files a
false form....
qZ[ Z :g [ )
N -
( xg *
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If such a person ......
Z :Z*
( '(Z/ * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No. No. Any person....
( 'X 77 :g [ )
Any person. V; :Z*
* Zi%
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189 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
1 63
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190 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
112
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Zakat for instance
( > 2i } :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He says that?
( ? H H{z :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: "It is not necessary; I don't
believe in it."
6kZ~X 7~gzt :g [ )
g7,
(r
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: This institution of Zakat
should be abolished?
( z c > 2i g Z Z H{z :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Abolished or it never
existed; "I do not believe in it."....
c z c :g [ )
NZ ~ kZ~ : z L kZ *
g7
( 'r
X VV :Z*
* Zi%
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... that is his view. The
Chief Election Commissioner asks, "Is it so?" he says,
"Yes, Sir, but you are not concerned. You are concerned
only with my declaration. I have written I am a Muslim. It is
none of your business whether I believe in one tenant or not,
or I believe in others or not." What will the Chief Election
Commissioner do? Has he the right to interfere or not?
7 kZ$Z r X ]Z , & kZt :g [ )
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192 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
X hH ~i Z+
0Z4kZVr
g {oH~mHkZ $Zr
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What will the members of
this House do?
!kZ {zN Cy ZMk ;kZ :Z*
( H~}g * * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Members of the House are
not under oath to give evidence, Sir.
c VZ7yZM :g [ )
( { Z{z *
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no.
( 77 :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You are asking ....
( g\ M :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are supposed to elect
or reject.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, you will guide
them. In such circumstances, you will tell us that in the light
of your interpretation of Article:20, the Chief Election
Commissioner says, 'Yes, I will have to accept the
declaration on the face of it?"
Z zgx|LZ 20i~]qyZ :g [ )
r/
( ?Q } ,
7* q ~Cce kZ H$Z
*wJ~
113
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I have already humbly
submitted so many times that these extreme examples, these
imaginary examples, cannot solve the problem we are facing
today. Let us face facts. You know .....
!F ~ :Z*
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193 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
CuZz X o ` M XX 7iZ,
6 yZ BV bkZ
( Ogt ]q
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think we will continue
after....
( e ] * 6kZ~w}[ Z :g [ )
!~,
Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Delegation is permittid to
withdraw, to be in the House at 6:00 pm.
g : }[ )
Wb x gz Z ]i Y Z Y z X
( N Y MQ
(The Delegation left the Chamber)
Mr. Chairman: The Special Committee is ....
?Y ] *
!
Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani: If you permit
me. * )
( ]i YZ\ M :ZgZ { *
* ! Y V; :}[
X jZgZ { *
----------
EVASIVE ANSWERS TO QUESTION IN THE
CROSS- EXAMINATION
t Le **nt~ #.}\ M~ :jZgZ { **
s ) Definite kZ D] Z w g * N Z E",
5G3M
( g6) Bound yZ ~ w}\ M X D * 0 } 7{z [ Z ( s
X ,[ Z ( s s ) Definite {z,
Mr. Chairman: This matter can be taken up with
the Attorney General.
N Zn]*
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194 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
'yZ~X 77 :}[
XtQZg\ M :jZgZ { * *
114
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w g *
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X V;g YZg f~!u :g [
He has got his X g t~ kZ * ! \ M :} [
( iCZ yZ ) own method.
A Member: All right, Sir.
( YZ :g-qZ )
X Zuz} * qZ} :}[
@(z) Portion -
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X 9 :j ZgZ { **
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!- *
115
@ M 7~[ Z y ZpX *
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Mr. Chairm an: The Special Committee is
adjourned to meet at 6:00 pm.
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195 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( ? X ZV-Z )
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, before I
proceed, my attention has been drawn by some members.
For some members, some further clarification on the
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197 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( ]*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Half a million in the whole
of India, including Pakistan, at that time, because it was
done before that.
Now you said this morning that at the time of the
death of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the number of Ahmadis in
1908, was about 4 lakhs. Now, in the course of these 30
years or so, has the number gone down to such extent, or
was this an incorrect figure?
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198 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
X V :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... but I want to know why
this practice was given up after 1931? Why are not they
separately mentioned? Have you requested them or the
Government itself did that?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: As far as I know, no, we
have not requested anybody to alter it.
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separately? ( YC: Z{et :g [)
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And, Sir, one more
clarification. You had stated this morning that your
followers call you Imam of the Jmaat, but actually your
designation is that of Khalifa-tul......
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes.
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201 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( ! V ;Y :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, this word "Imam"
could you kindly explain its significance as to in which
sense they call you Imam? What is idea significance?
Because, you know....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, may I remind you that
the day you came to address this House, you corrected the
Chairman and told him that you are Imam of the Jamaat?
,
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202 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( Yg,
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121
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, before we adjourned
this morning, I was asking you a certain question with
176
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203 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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123
( 7*
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Yes, I have.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What is Article 29?
( H 29iN C :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I do not remember.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 7 Probably. But Sir, just
like our Constitution says that you have the freedom of
religion subject to law, Public order and morality, Article:29
places similar restriction.... similar.... I don't say exactly the
same.... on the Human Rights that they also have to be
subject to some sort of restirction.
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208 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
182
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209 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Has any motion or resolution before the House
suggested even in the most remotest way that anybody will
not be allowed....
183
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210 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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That you have not the freedom of thought or mind or
conscience or the way you seek the truth. Nobody has
suggested it anywhere. On the contrary, the Resolution
which has come before the House.....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: V ; .... guarantees that you
will have your human rights and fundamental right,....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... right to practise and
profess and....( VZcgzZOg NZ,
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211 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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"The human person's most sacred and inviolable
possessions are his mind and his conscience."
Are they going to be affected in any way, as far as
your community is concerned, by any motion or resolution,
in enabling you to perceive the truth, to choose freely, and to
exist?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, if you are declared, to
put it very bluntly....
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212 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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128
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214 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
hg Z ) p ( p ~z* h#tH
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 7 , supposing somebody
says that you are not a Muslim....
( '7y\ Mv ,n :g [ )
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If the law says or the
Legislature says that, then you consider it as interference
with your rights?
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132
X 7ht#
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, the right which you
claim for yourself, do you concede the same right to others
also?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: To everybody else.
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218 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. They could also....
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133
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: And then you said that
you extend the same right and concede the same right to
others which you claim for yourself, and, of course, the
same courtesy.....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The same courtesy.
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219 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
c M [ Z l
X*
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, let us see on the basis
of the principle.
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M r . Y a h y a B a k h ti a r : Sir, the Ahmadi
Community believes that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a
Prophet of God?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No.
( 7Y :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Was he a "Nabi"?
( ? {zH :g [ )
( Z Zi%)
Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: The Ahmadiyya
Community does not believe that. The Ahmadiyya
1 95
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222 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
X}: q nZ a] M {z
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224 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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( ? Yg {e#ZKZ {zH ) Can he have his own Ummat?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Separate?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Is it a fact, Sir, that your
community.... the leader of your community or your
followers.... refer to those, who do not accept Mirza Ghulam
Ahmad as a Nabi of some sort, as not Muslims, or Kafirs?
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227 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I said 'not Muslims', that's
why I put it simply.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: First I put that way you can
explain that the Kufr has....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So according to you, they
are not Muslims?
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228 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, now, you said that
Mufti Mahmood has no right to say that you are not a
Muslim.....
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( '7y\ M}t{z
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And I have also said that I
have got no right to call him a....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... but you have in your.....
I mean when I say 'you', I do not mean particularly you,....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... b ut lead ers of
Ahmadiyya Jamaat have called Muslims who do not accept
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Nabi, as Kafir, as not Muslim,
or pucca Kafir, I mean, to put it strongly....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: no doubt, Isn't it so?
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229 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
q ,
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, .....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... Sir, I am asking a
simple question. If you claim a right for yourself that if you
declare that you are a Muslim, Mufti Mahmood has no
business to call you that you are not. Similarly, do you give
this right to Mufti Mahmood that if you call him not
Muslim or Kafir, he has also a right to call you Kafir and
not Muslim? I am asking you this.... whatever may be the
form
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Then we are going to....
203
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230 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I think page 12.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I just who you the exact....
You say, Sir: "In other words....."
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Members of Jamat-i-Islami or other admirers of
Maulana Maudoodi, call him Maulana Maudoodi.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Or Pir Maudoodi.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, nobody calls him 'Pir
Maudoodi.' ( H7~zc7 :g [)
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233 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
208
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235 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
X 5g
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147
Maulana Maudoodi.....
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I don't demand any '~ 7'~ p :Z * * Zi%
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not you. But....
148
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... but I must pay
courtesy to all others.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is very nice, Sir, but
your jamaat, if you don't personally, Maulana Maudoodi
has not suggested, you would....
Mr. Chairman: I would suggest to the Attorney-
General and the witness that definite questions should be
put instead of MUNAZARA. ( {o)
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am sorry. I put the next.
I was, Sir, dealing with the question of rights. If you
claim a right, you concede the same right to others; if you
claim courtesy because....
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Mr. Chairman: A definite question may be put....
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237 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
211
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238 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: What does that mean?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If anybody has said that....
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239 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: This is the definition of
(L L or Muslims as such?
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240 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, recently, in
England, when this Rabwa incident took place in Pakistan
on the 2nd June, the Ahmadiyya Community in England at
Blackburn, on the 2nd of June passed a Resolution. You
may have seen it.
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152
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, I have not.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But I will give you a copy;
you can get it varified:
"That we are deeply disturbed and worried at the
news of riots, breakdown of all law and order and the
persecution of Ahmadis all over the length and breadth of
Pakistan."
The next is:
"That we are distressed at the atrocities meted out to
Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan by non- Ahmadiyya
Pakistanis."
Sir, will you explain who are these 'non- Ahmadiyya
214
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241 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
217
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244 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
ki n[ Z ~wZt ! V ; Y :}[ )
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( n-JWB8X ]i YZYni [f
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 8:00 pm?
Mr. Chairman: 8:00 pm, after Mughrib Prayers.
Thank you very much.
( !t]\ MXi [fWB8 :}[ )
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You want me, Sir, to....
(Interruption)
8 o'clock. If you want me to clarify some position
and some point, you know, because I don't want to....
Mr. Chairman: Yes, the witness can take any
time. M z{ Z ! V ;Y :}[)
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: We are here to clarify the
position. ( DZzci7V :g [)
Mr. Chairman: Yes. ( ! V;Y :}[ )
155
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Thank you.
( !t] :g [ )
Mr. Chairman: The honourable members may
keep sitting. ( Ogp=y ZMid :}[)
(The Delegation left the Chamber)
`z)
(H
Mr. Chairm an: The Special Committee is
adjurned to meet at 8:00 pm. for Mughrib Prayers.
JWB8wS :}[)
(C~ni[f-
The Special Committee adjourned for Maghreb Prayers to
218
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245 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, before we adjourned,
you were explaining the meaning of "Kafir" and you said
that when you referred to Muslim and Kafir, you mean in
political sense.....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Also, we also mean in
poltical sense and in other sense also.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In both the Sense. And one
sense is political sense means that he says within the pale of
Islam.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I am asking you, Sir,
because so much has been said in our society about the
word "Kafir" and you being learned, have your own
interpretation, so we want the position to be clarified, that
220
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248 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He
was Khalifa-ul-Masih
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 77 I am just Saying
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, supposing Mirza
Bashir-ud-Din Mahmood Ahmad as "Khalifa-e-Sani
Ahmediyya.....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ....Or....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... even Mirza Ghulam
Ahmad as the founder.....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I am sorry, I have not
explained my position. Now I could be a "Gunahgar"
( g ) Muslim:
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Ghalib says this: it has got a particular meaning. I
am a Muslim, I may commit a hundred and one sins, but
159
when do I become a Kafir? If I refuse to accept Mirza
Ghulam Ahmad as a Nabi, will I be a Kafir according to you
or a "Gunahgar"?
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particularly you. Ahmediyah community members.... If they
160
dub a person who does not accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, I agree with you, but I
am asking you a simple question, that when you call
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not necessarily even
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I say that in
which category will you put a person who does not accept
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a Nabi? As a Gunahgar or as a
Kafir?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page 199. The Report says
Sir, that:
"On the question whether the Ahmadis consider the
other Muslamans to be Kafirs in the sense of their being
outside the pale of Islam, the position taken before us is that
such persons are not Kafirs and that the word "Kufr" when
used in the literature of the Ahmadis in respect of such
persons, is used in the sense of Minor hereby and that it was
never intended to convey that such persons were outside the
pale of Islam. We have seen the previous pronouncement of
Ahmadis on this subject, which are numerous and to us they
do not seem to be capable of any other interpretation than
this that people who do not believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
are outside the pale of Islam. It is now stated that
Musalamans, who do not accept the claim of
Mamoor-min-Allah, after the Holy Prophet, are not deniers
168
of Allah and the Prophet are, therefore, still within Ummat.
This is in no wa y inco nsistent with the p revio us
announcement that the other Musalmans are Kafirs. In fact,
231
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266 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( 65mg Z Z ) X h M MgzgzZhM M \ M
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I would not be fair to this
240
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267 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
august House.
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Mr. Chairman: If the books are available here....
( 'V :}[ )
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Books are available.
( :g [ )
Mr. Chairman: .... these may be shown to the
witness. ( $Y3{ Z :}[)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Page 35.
( 35 :g [ )
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268 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
X S, 77^g7g
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: They are not ordinary
people. ( 7vx {z :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but they are just like
Justice Munir; he was not convinced by this reply.
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I don't say ! Y ;g7 kZ ~ 77 :g [
this, but I say that you produced material before him, you
gave interpretation before him in a very authoritative, lucid
4gzZ \ M ~) manner, inspite of that he gave a finding....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He was not in a mood to
accept those statements.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So the average person,
243
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270 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
244
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271 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Sir, next quotation is: ( twZ Z[)
n kZX 7\ M ~Z)gzZ # rZi%a L L
X ~Z)g Z ._*y M
This is from "Alfazal" June 1922, 26-29. I think it
was by- weekly in those days.
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All the V * *, 6 kZ 't a t ~ 7 :g [
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273 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
'Za :g [
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Mr. Chairman: No, one thing may be clarified:
whether the writings are admitted or not?
,, sz ] *
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Beg your pardon?
( ?V \ M :g [ )
Mr. Chairman: The writings are admitted or not?
( ?7* k :}[ )
c t, ,
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, that si not denied.
H7g Zy Z ! 7 :g [ )
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Mr. Chairman: That is not denied. All right.
H7g Z yZ :}[ )
( YZX H
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But he can verify them.
M& yZ {zp :g [ )
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Mr. Chairman: Yes. ( ! V; Y :}[ )
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274 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
X VzB
s
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 26,29 June, 1922.
( Y 1922yB2926 :g [ )
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186
This you have said that because for different
reasons, not because he is a Kafir, kZ \ M nkZ )
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275 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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188
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277 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
'=VrZ\ M : :g [
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190
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In retaliation?
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279 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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280 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
sanaullah said, but if you say all the Musalmans, the whole
lot of them, are Kafirs....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Please, this... you kindly
see.... p\ M :g [)
( gV
! Y :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... you don't say Maulvi so
and so is Kafir, Mulla so and so Kafir. X 7 y L L
V#V #~, 6 gm{g7t \ M :g [ )
( V #V#5* c X
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281 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
X g] * !Vz, ]Zz Z
X 7\ M( , Z \ M({z :g [
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? Lgy{z- JzkZX Z`g {$ A* c
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: HyZttZ * !~kZX ( 169168m22`Z 165 164m )
# ZQX * @Y y M ZzX <- qZtL L
t : yZgzZ H :, 6}gzZ * c ZI= V-200
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t, x * * ~- qZC g 3Z M-qZ ~}g * !
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I will ask you again.
Please understand, try to understand my question. Now, I
am a Muslim who has nothing to do with Barelvi, Deobandi
or anybody else, I am just giving you an example there could
be many. Now, if a Barelvi Maulvi or a Deobandi Maulvi
declares Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as Kafir....
* !$X V 7 \ MQ ~ ! [ :g [ )
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And you don't?
( ?\ MgzZ :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ....and I have not even
heard of his fatwa....
255
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282 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
! :t~ :g [ )
( ' 7*
193
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And you don't declare
him a Kafir? ( ? 7yZ\ M :Z*
* Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ....and.... there is no
refrendum on the question.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, I am....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no,....
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283 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That, that is all right.
Sir,.... ( '[ :g [ )
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... that is all right,....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but, Sir, if two hundred
Maulvis.... Z[ p! 7 :g [)
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284 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
X 7t :Z* * Zi%
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 7, ..... that is how it is
interpreted, as I say. If you think that it is not correct....
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Mr. Chairman: I think that will do for today. You
want to continue or we should....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, we can continue
tomorrow morning....
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286 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
Mg ~g Y :g [ )
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Mr. Chairman: Tomorrow morning.
( :}[ )
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... because it will not
conclude so soon.
( 7~ZctY :g [ )
Mr. Chairm an: Yes, the mem bers of the
Delegation are permitted to go. Tomorrow at 10:00 am.
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----------
197
AVAILABILITY OF BOOKS ETC. FOR
QUOTATIONS
AND CROSS- REFERENCES
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287 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mr. Chairman....
( '}[ :g [ )
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Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: Mr.
Chairman, the books are available.
* )
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, they are available.
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Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Sidiqui: At
any time we can supply the books.
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Moulana Shah Ahmad Noorani Siddiqui: The
books are available.
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, they are available. So, any
reference the witness can see, he will look up tomorrow and
can reply.
! V ; Y :}[ )
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The books, Sir, which I
am referring to....
( V;g} Zj~V1X! [ :g [ )
Mr. Chairman: Yes.
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289 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
( ! V;Y :}[ )
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ... are written either by
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself or by Mirza Bashir-ud-Din
Mahmud.... his addresses. So, they are with the Ahmadiyya
Jamaat. But in case they don't have them....
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(The Delegation left the Chamber)
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Mr. Chairman: I think before adjourning for
tomorrow at 10:00 am. the books may be kept near the
Attorney- General, and....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: With the witness, I will not
produce them. He has got the books.
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290 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Chairman: Yes. ( ! V; Y :}[ )
Mian Mohammad Attaullah: ... for instance,
Mirza Tahir Ahmad, he unnecessarily....
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Mr. Chairman: Just a minute. ! V ;
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292 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Chairman: That is almost settled.
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293 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I request, he need not
answer any question at all. But you, as judges, should note
that. The demeanour of the witness, his hesitation, his effort
to be evasive, all these are taken into consideration and you
can draw your own inference, favourable or adverse. And
your address....
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Mr. Chairman: One thing I may mention. The
honourable members.....
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... you can make a note of
everything. You give a fair decision yourselves.
( D9\ M LZQgzZD^qC :g [)
Mr. Chairman: One thing I may remained the
honourable members: we are getting the opinion of a
witness....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But....
( 'p :g [ )
Mr. Chairman: .... Opinion is, .... rare case, under
the Evidence Act.
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295 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
N *
( ww* * Zi%)
Sardar Moula Bakhsh Soomro: My humble
submission to you, Sir, is that I highly appreciate your
patience but, Sir, I would request that kindly you do not
allow them too much attitude. He is giving evasive replies.
The same questions are being repeated in the same breath.
It gets on our nerves. Rather than you give a patient....
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, Sardar Maula Bakhsh.
( jg Zu! V;Y :}[ )
Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: I highly
appreciate your patience but there should be some check.
Sir, some check from the Chair also should be applied.
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297 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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298 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 5th Aug, 1974 No:01
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So, the House stands adjourned to meet tomorrow....
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Mr. Chairman: .... at 10:00 am. tomorrow.
( W k :}[ )
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!B] *
----------
The Special Committee of the Whole House adjourned to
meet at ten of the clock, in the morning,
on Tuesday, the 6th August, 1974.
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299 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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300 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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301 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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302 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
209
THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN
----------
PROCEEDINGS
OF
THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE
WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA
TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE.
----------
OFFICIAL REPORT
----------
Tuesday, the 6th August. 1974.
( Y 1974~ZB 6iz,
')
----------
The Special Committee of the Whole House of the
National Assembly of Pakistan met in Camera in the
Assembly Chamber, (State Bank Building), Islamabad, at
ten of the clock, in the morning. Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada
Farooq Ali) in the Chair.
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(Recition from the Holy Quran)
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303 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
INTERPRETATION OF DOCUMENTS
OR WRITINGS
Ch. Jhangir Ali: Mr. Speaker, Sir.... oh! Mr.
Chairman, Sir, interpretation of a document or a writing is
not the job of a witness. I would therefore request. Sir, that
the witness should not be allowed to interpret the writing. It
is the job of the Presiding officer or the Judge, Sir, or this
honourable committee, to give interpretation to the writings.
He should be conformed only with this....
**
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Mr. Chairman: Yes. ( ! V; Y :}[ )
211
Ch. Jhangir Ali: ....whether you admit the
existence of this writing in your so and so....
Mr. Chairman: This is what is settled. You are the
judges. You can draw any inference out of this.....
Ch. Jahangir Ali: Sir, he is wasting unnecessarily
the tim e in giving interpretatio n.... wha t wa s the
interpretation before the Munir Committee, what was the
statement before the Munir Committee...
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Mr. Chairman: Ch. Sahib whenever any such
difficulty arises, the Attorney- General can ask the Chair
that this is unnecessary.
7
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306 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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Ch. Jahangir Ali: All right. That is the better
way.
Mr. Chairman: Begum Nasim Jahan.
( VH! Y :}[ )
Begum Nasim Jahan: A......
Mr. Chairman: I have entirely left the matter in
the hands of the Attorney- General. He can seek the
protection of the Chair. He can seek the clarifiation or
anything. Whatever he needs. Yes.
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----------
WOMEN'S REPRESENTATION ON
QUESTIONS COMMITTEE
Begum Naseem Jahan: Mr.Chairman, Sir, I am
on a matter of clarification. Have women been given any
representation on the Questions Committee?
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Mr. Chairman: Pardon?
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Begum Nasim Jahan: Have women been given
any representation on the Questions Committee?
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307 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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308 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
10
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309 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
11
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310 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, if.... shall I ask or
you want to complete this?
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question? ( V* qZ [ ~[ Z :g [)
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216
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, if a Muslim, as
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accept Hazrat Isa as a Nabi, in which category he come of
Kafir? Outsid e Daera-e-Islam ( xsZ {,
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313 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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314 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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The word is not even used. The word, Sir, is not used
"Kafir" at all. Non Ahmadi, who does not accept Mirza
Ghulam Ahmad.
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316 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In other words, Sir....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: In other words, you allow
your Girls to marry the other categories of non-Ahmadies?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I mean you have no
objection. I could put it that way.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Not as a matter of faith but
as a matter of expediency you refuse?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: 7 You object to it because
relations will not be happy. But if an Ahmadi marries a
non-Ahmadi girl, the relation will be all right? It will be
happy? Further it is...
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, we don't like.....
'77
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: It is what Mirza Sahib says.
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that in the previous case.
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318 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Supposing there is no fatwa
at all, but what is your faith, what is your belief?
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which does not exist?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But, Sir, supposing there
had been no Fatwa at all...
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: In that realm of unreality,
you might issue any fatwa.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but supposing....
( 7}u :,n :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Why suppose unreality?
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but You think that the
only reason is "Fatwa"?
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319 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I will put it in a different
way. If a person is not aware of "Fatwa" but he believes it is
his faith.....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He has blind faith in his
religious leader who has issued the Fatwa.
224
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, not in the
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320 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: On both sides....
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322 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
( ?6VV|Vy)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, if the child's father has
committed the sin of not accepting.... from your point of
view.... Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as Nabi....
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323 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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324 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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Mr. Chairman: It is already in the Mahzar Nama,
it need not be read; it is part of Mahzar Nama at page....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The question is repeated.
Mr. Chairman: .... at page 154.
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I beg....
Mr. Chairman: Yes?
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: ... to submit that I may be
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325 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
allowed to repeat....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, if he wants to
emphasize that, I have no objection.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: If you repeat the question. I
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Certainly, certainly.
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328 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I again want to ask....
because this reply was not clear to me.... as to why the
Janaza prayer of a child of six months.....
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329 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Now, Sir, I draw your
attention to the collection of speeches and addresses of
Mirza Bashir-ud-din Mohammad Ahmad Sahib.
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330 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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332 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I wanted to
clarify.
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338 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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Except Ahmadis. And I was shocked, and I could not
understand. That explanation I want to know.
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340 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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Mr. Chairman: These are not....
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney- General.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I said everything would
be on the record. The members are judges. They will see,
they will form their own opinion, they can draw their own
inferences, but if, at this stage when the witness is giving
evidence, anybody tries to stop him, they will give an excuse
that the National Assembly of Pakistan did not give him a
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Mr. Chairman: Ch. Jahangir Ali's suggestion
may also be kept in view.
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Ch. Jehangir -
Ali's suggestion may aslo be kept in view. He has also
suggested certain things. The honourable member can talk
to the Attorney General just in the recess.
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346 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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348 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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349 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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{The Special Committee of the whole House adjourned
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350 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I was asking you a
52
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351 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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352 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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354 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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witness has to say.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: (To Mr. Chairman) Sir, I
have read it out and the witness has said that it has got no
value after Ch. Zafarullah Khan's.....
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Mr. Chairman: That is an opinion of the witness.
The witness can express his opinion......
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355 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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356 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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357 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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What I am respectfully submitting is that you are
trying to prove that they are Muslims and Mirza Sahib says:
don't try to prove they are Muslims.
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361 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 6th Aug, 1974 No:02
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If I am right or wrong....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I beg to differ.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, that I think....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Different interpretation.
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Here it is said:
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Impossible; in categorical terms it is stated.
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attention also to 'Anwar-i-Khilafat,' page 90. Here it is
stated: X : y V-Z) ntZg L L
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We are making an effort to see if we can come to some
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(To Mr. Chairman) We will continue tomorrow.
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The Delegation is permitted to go and to be here
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The honourable members may keep sitting.
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Mr. Chairman: There is nothing to say. Only the
House is adjourned after the Delegation has left.
(The Delegation left the Chamber)
Mr. Chairman: Any honourable member has to
say anything?
Maulana Zafar Ahmad Ansari!
I will request the members to be in their seats.
341
PHOTOGRAPH OF THE MOSQUE IN
IJEBUODE, NIGERIA AND ITS CAPTIONS
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428 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
349
THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN
----------
PROCEEDINGS
OF
THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE
WHOLE HOUSE HELD IN CAMERA
TO CONSIDER THE QADIANI ISSUE.
----------
OFFICIAL REPORT
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Wednesday, the 7th August. 1974.
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The Special Committee of the Whole House of the
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Farooq Ali) in the Chair.
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429 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
350
Mr. Chairman: Is Mr. Attorney- General
prepared? Should we call them?
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CROSS- EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib have you
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440 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
( IeVE*
c )
Mr.Yahya Bakhtiar: Sir, I asked some question
about the separatist tendency in ahmadis with regard to
that there is a statement of Mirza Bashir-ud-din,
Mahmud ahmad. Before I ask about this statement, there
is an impresion that before the Independence, the stand of
your jamaat was that you are a separate entity, you have
nothing to do with Muslims, you are just like Christians
or Parsees. but after independence, you have taken the
stand that you are part of Muslims or Muslims Millat or
Muslim nation. but befere that, I mean to say, if you
know that and you can reply. With that background, I
am reading out this'
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Mirza Nasir Ahmed: I do not know what you
are referring to, because I have never'
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!* 7
442 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
0 gzZ> :Z*
( 5J++~Zy * * Zi%)
Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: That was after 3rd
June,1947.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Before the creation of
Pakistan. 0 p :Z*
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: Before the'
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Before the creation of
Pakistan. 0 p :Z*
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: Before the announcement.
Before the announcement that Pakistan had to become a
reality, was going to be established'put it that way'the
3rd June statement of 1947 I fully'
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I think the imagination is
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: No, but I think that this is
an impression and therefore'
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: It might be an impression
in some minds. Let us clarify it.
szYZX ~V (Z :Z*
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. This is a statement of
Mirza Bashir-ud-Din Ahmed-"Al-Fazal" 13th November,
18
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!* 7
443 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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!* 7
444 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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"Two into one would not go."
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: "Two into one would not
go." qZz :Z*
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: Now I would like to read
this, Sir, so that' ( VLe, 7kZ~ :g [)
I don't want to read part of it' 6g)
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: "Impact" International,
fornightly, 14th to 27th June, 1974.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: You would like' whether
I have a right to these views or not?
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: When I said that there is an
impression, this is one of the impression, generally this
impression, that before the Independence this was the stand
of the Ahmadis. And here I would read'
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Who is the writer?
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: I really do not know. But
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!* 7
445 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: I do not want to read a
portion of it'
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Mr Yahya Bakhtiar: I do not want to read a
portion of it because that would create misunderstanding.
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367
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Only one part of it I am
concerned with, but I am reading it so that there may be no
misunderstanding:
"'The matter involved no complicated theolegy as
22
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447 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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448 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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449 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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!* 7
450 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
Z VE* c {z X ~ C wqX Y} 7[ Z ~ V; X
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The source of this article ....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: These are the views of....
( ']t :g [ )
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: .... is the one who is
well-versed in spreading the false allegation against
Jamaat-i-Ahmadiyah.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am not saying that he is a
truthful person or false person. I have just said that these
are the views. He has reported the press conference and he
says that this is the stand of the Ahmadis.....
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!* 7
453 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
( tV-Z
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, no. These are not
the views expressed by Ch. Zafrullah Khan.
X H7g Z ] yZvZ;~g@aX 7Y :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, I have said these
are his views and comments on Ch. Zafar Sahib's press
conference or whatever Chaudhry Sahib has said in the
press conference.
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The views expressed in this
article have no association, no correlation with the
expressions of Ch. Zafrullah Khan.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I do not say that these are
his comments. Whether the....
( ']yZt H7t~ :g [ )
370
Mirza Nasir Ahm ad: These are not the
comments on the.... 6y }t :Z*
(, * Zi%)
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: ....Statements or anything,
whether it is a fair comment or unfair comment, that is
different....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, it is not a comment
because what portion of the Press Conference the comment
29
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!* 7
454 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
is connected with?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Relating to the story what
the trouble is about.
( H ,t ;g Ct{z :g [ )
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is talking of the Press
Conference, he is talking of so many other things, and those
are not inter related.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: But the one thing which I
wanted to ask you is that here is an impression that, at the
time of Independence or immediately before that, the stand
of the Ahmadiya Jamaat was that they are separate just like
Parsees, and after that....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: No, no, absolutely wrong
stand. !t :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, will you please explain
this statement of Mirza Sahib which I have just read out
13th January, 1946?
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!* 7
455 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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Sir, now I go to another subject.
What is the concept or meaning, according to you, of
Massih-e- maood ( [) ? Because this is something
which requires explanation, because I have some idea that it
is x?Zm} reincrnate or some such thing; but we want to
be very clear on this.
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456 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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457 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Attributes....
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Is it there or not? Was this his view about Jesus
Christ or Essa- ibn-e-Mariam?
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him. !yZ :Z*
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, no, it is, Sir, reported....
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: What he did assert was that.
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459 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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463 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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465 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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466 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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469 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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Today after nine, after the evening session, we
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review everything x?Ziz as to how long we have....
(The Delegation entered the Chamber)
Mr. Chairman: Yes, Mr. Attorney- General.
----------
CROSS- EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI
GROUP DELEGATION
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472 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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475 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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----------
396
CROSS- EXAMINATION OF THE QUADIANI
GROUP DELEGATION
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He is cha ng i ng h is v iews a cc o rd ing t o m y
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: He is not changing his
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480 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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When you check it and if you find it correct, Sir,
please keep in mind what I am going to ask. With all that he
said about Imam Hussain. Which you read out just now,
here is this: ~ @}g vgzZ~L L as if he feels his Hussain
does not belong to him....
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489 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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We are prepared to produce the books.
( g n7 )
410
Mr. Chairman: The first question would be:
whether these writings are admitted? Then the questions.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I asked the
witness, Sir. That is what I ask. But he will like to know
what come before and after. But he has not denied it.
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Mr. Chairman: The explanation will come when
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: So, he says that he will
have to read it from the original.
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491 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
X ,}y Z\ MX #
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: If I give the quotation, then
I forget the subject. I wanted it to be clarified.
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Mr. Chairm an: By the time you read the
quotation, the book may be handed over to members of the
delegation: and by the time you finish, they can seply.
67
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!* 7
492 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Because you have relied on
it, so, if it is not on the record....
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!* 7
494 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
X 7
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: I rely on that most....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You relied on a document.
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495 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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You say that you....
Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soom ro: After a
question has been put before them, they should deny or
refuse; and the explanation can be given later on whether
the fact is denied or accepted.
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Mr. Chiarman: That I have already remarked.
(To Mr. Attorney- General) Yes, continue.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is what I have said
that the witness should see, you know, if it is there or not.
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!* 7
497 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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!* 7
498 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
74
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!* 7
499 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
X M {z :g [
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!* 7
500 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
X N M V ;V; :Z*
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{z e t eg ! }[ :z, m+Z[
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As soon as the Attorney- General refers to a X $V
reference....
(Interruptions)
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As soon as the Attorney- General refers to a
reference the book should be ready, It shoud be handed over
to the witness....
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Mr. Chairman: .... So that X BtzkZ
(Pause)
Mr. Chairman: So, we can proceed now.
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!* 7
501 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
't X
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: You want more time?
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Mr. Chairman: But the writing is admitted?
kp :}[ )
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The writing is admitted?
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: The writing is admitted that
it is. ( 'tt- JukZ :Z* * Zi%)
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Mr. Chairman: Next writing.
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Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: This is not
admission or denial of the fact. Whether they should in to to
accept....
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Mr. Chairman: No, Haji Sahib, it has been
accepted. And the witness says that he will explain it.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: He says that he will see the
books which have been brought in the summary of that....
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Mr. Chairman: Next writing. Because, for the
77
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!* 7
502 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
C =Y t Z, ( ~ @}g vgzZ ~L L :g [
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He has to refer to one or witness two other
books also and then give explanation; and that has come on
record. I am going further now.
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!* 7
503 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
X V ; :}[
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421
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Mr. Chairman: You could check it up from
Chapters, Chapter- wise.
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Mr. Chairman: So, Mr. Attorney- General,....
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Mr. Chairman: So, for the time being, I think....
423
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: That is.... (To Mr.
Chairman) let me ask about the next sentences.
Mr. Chairman: For the time being, no. The
delegation is permitted to leave and to report at 6:00.
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!* 7
505 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
( Np=WB 6x
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: The edition Mirza Sahib
has here....
X ]i YZ :Z*
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Mr. Chairman: To report at 6:00 p.m. The
honourable members will keep sitting.
( Ogp=yZM M :Zzx Wb Y`z :}[ )
(The delegation left the chamber)
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Mr. Chairman: Chaudhry Sahib, I am going to
suggest.... r~g@a :}[)
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(Interruption)
Just a minute; have patience for one minute.
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I would request those honourable members....
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(Interruption)
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----------
PRODUCTION OF REFERENCES/QUOTATIONS
BEFORE THE DELEGATION
Mr. Chairman: I would not take more than two
minutes everything would be clear.
424
I would request at least those honourable
members, those who associated themselves with the
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!* 7
506 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
82
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!* 7
507 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
7\ M ] Y!Zj/
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425
We should not cut a sorry figure before the
members of the delegation. And these members should be
here up to 6:00.
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The change of edition, or print at Rabwah or Qadian
is no excuse; or you say.
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Mr. Mohammad Haneef Khan: One point. Not
all the members of the Steering Committee but only
honourable members....
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Mr. Chairman: Those who are conversant; they
may not be members of Steering Committee, because this is
the responsibility of everybody, expecially.
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(Interruption) X *c FVM
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or those are conversant * c F ] Z LZ VM
[ZX , Question put # rw g * NZ#Z kZgzZ with this
!ZjkZ X \ M Questions gzZk* 0 yZ Questions
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Mr. Attorney- General, the first question would be:
"Whether Explanation will follow. Upto- date." You admit
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!* 7
508 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
or do not admit
XVgZegzZ Facts * @YHgR Lawyer R
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426
With there remarks....
(Interruption)
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----------
LEAKAGE OF QUESTIONS TO BE PUT TO THE
DELEGATION
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427
Mr. Chairman: The rest should not be reported.
The Reporters would leave the Hall.
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!* 7
509 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
! [ Z :}[ )
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----------
The special Committee adjourned for lunch break to
re-assembled.
----------
The Special Committee re-assembled after the lunch break,
Mr. Chaiman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair.
Mr. Chairman: Still the quorum is not complete.
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After every sitting....
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It will save lot to trouble.
(9z)X N Y`g Z{\ M
(The Delegation entered the chamber)
Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Attorney- General.
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----------
428
CROSS- EXAMINATION OF THE QADIANI
GROUP DELEGATION
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Mirza Sahib, are you ready
with some of the replies?
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!* 7
510 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
( ?g [ Z\ M H ! # rZi% :g [ )
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429
Le Clarification t~YX Y Mt :g [
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Mr. Attorney General: We are Lawyers; we
interpret words in their leteral, plain, simple meaning, and...
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430
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Then please read out the
whole, all these verses.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: .... if those meanings are
not clear, then, if some thing the author himself or the law
itself says... Now here it is so clearly written:
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!* 7
512 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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431
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531 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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533 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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535 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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Mr. Chairman: I think It would be better the
witness should reply when the question is finished.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I wanted to sum up the
position. For two days, I have been citing authorities from
your religious literature, Mirza Sahib....
Mirza Nasir Ahmad: And I have been trying to
explain them.
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: When you say, according to
]Z 7y
these writings, a particular person is Kafir, } ,
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536 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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538 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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464
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I would not take it
because, I think, he is very carefully using these words; he
would not use a superfluous word.
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539 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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Mr. Chairman: Now we are to break for Maghreb
Prayers.
465
The question of the Attorney- General remains
unanswered. The witness may reply to that question. The
question is: if the witness dubs anybody non- muslims,
whether that person has a right to ask them or not?
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Yes. To that I am coming
back because that has remained unanswered.
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Mr. Chairman: Because that was main question
and that remained unanswered.
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!* 7
540 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
----------
(The Delegation left the Chamber)
----------
Mr. Chairman: The honourable members may
keep sitting. (Pause)
(The Committee of the House is adjourned to meet at 8:00
p.m. after Maghreb Prayers)
----------
(The Special Committee re- assembled after Maghreb
prayers Mr. Chairman (Sahibzada Farooq Ali) in the Chair)
----------
Mr. Chairman: Should we call them? (Pause)
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(The Delegation entered the Chamber)
Mr. Chairman: Yes, the Attorney- General.
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541 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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557 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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559 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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Mirza Nasir Ahmad: Let you have your
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, you are entitled to have
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561 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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Mr. Chairman: So far as the discussion between
the question is concerned. I may abserve my precious
observation again. I may repeat: Let Attorney- General
complete the question. Let the answer from the witness
come, and then the witness can add an explanations. If we
adopt this procedure, we will cut short many of the
discussion which take place between the Attorney- General
and the witness and which are totally not relevant to the
subject.
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562 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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564 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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565 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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A witness is entitled to certain consideration if he
says that he is not feeling well. One thing more I want to
say. So far as the stretegy is concerned, the House has
complete faith in the Attorney General.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I am very grateful, Sir. The
thing is this: there are two difficulties- One is that many
honourable members have asked many questions. I am
trying to fit in those in various subjects.
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Mr. Chairman: Yes.
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569 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
( YZ{z~~" )
501
Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: My own view- point is
that if he does not answer at that. I will leave the subject;
then come back.
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, then again come back; and
then to be taken unaweres. One thing I want to ask one
more question that, tomorrow, we will not be able to finish
it.
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: I do not think so.
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Mr. Chairman: I do not think so; we do not think
so. So, the Lahore Party, which we had called for
tomorrow.....
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: No, not even Friday.
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Mr. Chairman: Not even Friday, so, they may be
informed that.... * iy ZQ :}[ )
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Mr. Yahya Bakhtiar: Saturday or Monday.
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571 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
can examine them later; and that will take a day or so.
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Mr. Chairman: Tomorrow I will be able to tell the
honourable Members the tentative programme also; and
then we will discuss it. In the meantime, the Lahori Party
may be stopped form coming tomorrow, yes. Now I want
to....
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Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: Sir a minute.
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Mr. Chairman: Mian Attaullah.
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Sardar Maula Bakhsh Soomro: My
submission, Sir....
Mr. Chairman: I have given the floor to Mian
Attaulah. Then afterward....
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573 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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575 NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF PAKISTAN 7th Aug, 1974 No:03
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The m o re he sp ea k s, the m o re he b eco m es
inconsistent and contradictory. So, I would not stop him.
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Mr. Chairman: Yes, we will try that the less he
gives in writing, the better it is, and the less he reads is also
505
better. Now, the stage has come when only oral answers and
brief answers are needed. Any honourable member who
would like to say anything?
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Some Members: Nobody.
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Mr. Chairman: No, no, most welcome. Thank you
very much. We shell Tomorrow at 10:00 am.
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(The Special Committee of whole House adjourned
to meet at ten of the Clock, in the morning, on Thursday,
the 8th August, 1974.)
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