So The Confederacy Didnt Go To War Over Slavery

So The Confederacy Didn't Go To War Over Slavery?
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DIARY RECOMMENDED BY
FRI JUN 19, 2015 AT 01:23 AM PDT
So The Confederacy Didn't Go To War

RECOMMENDED BY LAFEMINISTA
Over Slavery?
Jeb! Bush isn't sure what motivated the
LaFeminista killer who 'wanted to start a race war'
by Barbara Morrill 72/72 New 49Recs
Share 129 Tweet 147 Comments / 147 New
Why Financial Institutions Should Burn
in Hell
by gchaucer2 7/7 New 15Recs
Yeah right, pull the other ones it's got bells on.
High Impact Posts: June 18, 2015
Mississippi Declaration of Secession
by jotter 5/5 New 7Recs
NY Times: Right-Wing Terrorists kill

In the momentous step, which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the more people in US than Muslim
government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the extremists.
prominent reasons which have induced our course. by subir 36/36 New 70Recs
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material South Carolina law forbids removal of
interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest Confederate flag from capitoland it's
padlocked inplace
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394560/-So-The-Confederacy-Didn-t-Go-To-War-Over-Slavery?detail=email[6/19/2015 1:51:54 PM]

and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to by David Nir 120/120 New 66Recs
the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but
the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become Museums 101: Fords and Chevrolets of
necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. the 1930s in America's Car Museum
That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its (Photo Diary)
by Ojibwa 5/5 New 7Recs
consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition,
or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.
A Curious Morning at SCOTUS
That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will by Its the Supreme Court Stupid
19/19 New 24Recs
sufficiently prove.
The hostility to this institution commenced before the adoption of the Constitution, and As lawsuit and protest loom, panicked
North Carolina Republicans scramble to
was manifested in the well-known Ordinance of 1787, in regard to the Northwestern
camouflage voter ID law
Territory. by DocDawg 20/20 New 84Recs
This is a call out diary, but not the kind

you think
Texas Declaration of Secession by Steven D 4/4 New 9Recs
Thanks to Charleston shootings Wall

Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Street Journal declares institutionalized
racism over
Confederated States to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility [sic] and secure by Laura Clawson 62/62 New 66Recs
more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received
into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal
constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She
was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution
known as negro slavery--the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits--
a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race,
and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and
geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding
States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what
has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and
authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them?
LAFEMINISTA'S TAGS
The controlling majority of the Federal Government, under various pretences and
disguises, has so administered the same as to exclude the citizens of the Southern
A Morning Muse (1858)
States, unless under odious and unconstitutional restrictions, from all the immense
territory owned in common by all the States on the Pacific Ocean, for the avowed
Snark (19393)
purpose of acquiring sufficient power in the common government to use it as a means of
destroying the institutions of Texas and her sister slave-holding States.
The Fuck America Project (14)

War on Women (5553)
South Carolina Declaration of Secession
LAFEMINISTA'S BLOGROLL
In the present case, that fact is established with certainty. We assert that fourteen of
the States have deliberately refused, for years past, to fulfill their constitutional MSF
obligations, and we refer to their own Statutes for the proof.
EWB
The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as follows: "No
person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into UNHCR
another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such
service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or ICRC
labor may be due." [editor's note: this is the Fugitive Slave Clause in the original
Constitution whereby the North promised to return escaped slaves to their "owners" in RAWA
the South]
WW
This stipulation was so material to the compact, that without it that compact would not
have been made. The greater number of the contracting parties held slaves, and they UNIFEM
had previously evinced their estimate of the value of such a stipulation by making it a
condition in the Ordinance for the government of the territory ceded by Virginia, which ILGA
now composes the States north of the Ohio River.
PHR
The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these
stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing UNICEF
hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led
to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased WfW
to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont,
POGO
Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana,
Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of
AWWP
Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the
fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State
ONE
Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New
Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but
the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render
inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the MOST SHARED
State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals;
and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged Lindsey Graham: The Confederate flag
is 'who we are' even though 'it's been
with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the used in a racist way'
constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non- by Laura Clawson 7900 130
slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from
her obligation. South Carolina law forbids removal of

Confederate flag from capitoland it's

padlocked inplace
by David Nir 1685 33
Georgia
Jon Stewart: Domestic Terrorism & the
Confederate Culture Must Stop (Video)
by Billionaires 8224 33
. . . In 1820 the North demanded that the State of Missouri should not be admitted into
the Union unless she first prohibited slavery within her limits by her constitution. After a Kansas Democrat in big trouble with
bitter and protracted struggle the North was defeated in her special object, but her Republicans for calling racist bill racist
policy and position led to the adoption of a section in the law for the admission of by Laura Clawson 1686 11
Missouri, prohibiting slavery in all that portion of the territory acquired from France lying
North of 36 [degrees] 30 [minutes] north latitude and outside of Missouri. The venerable Dylann Roof wanted to 'start a race
war'
Madison at the time of its adoption declared it unconstitutional. Mr. Jefferson condemned
by Barbara Morrill 1083 27
the restriction and foresaw its consequences and predicted that it would result in the
dissolution of the Union. His prediction is now history. The North demanded the
application of the principle of prohibition of slavery to all of the territory acquired from
Mexico and all other parts of the public domain then and in all future time. It was the
announcement of her purpose to appropriate to herself all the public domain then owned
and thereafter to be acquired by the United States. The claim itself was less arrogant
and insulting than the reason with which she supported it. That reason was her fixed
purpose to limit, restrain, and finally abolish slavery in the States where it exists. The
South with great unanimity declared her purpose to resist the principle of prohibition to
the last extremity. This particular question, in connection with a series of questions
affecting the same subject, was finally disposed of by the defeat of prohibitory
legislation.
The Presidential election of 1852 resulted in the total overthrow of the advocates of
restriction and their party friends. Immediately after this result the anti-slavery portion
of the defeated party resolved to unite all the elements in the North opposed to slavery
an to stake their future political fortunes upon their hostility to slavery everywhere. This
is the party two whom the people of the North have committed the Government. They
raised their standard in 1856 and were barely defeated. They entered the Presidential
contest again in 1860 and succeeded.
The prohibition of slavery in the Territories, hostility to it everywhere, the equality of the
black and white races, disregard of all constitutional guarantees in its favor, were boldly
proclaimed by its leaders and applauded by its followers.
Florida

By the agency of a large proportion of the members from the non slaveholding States
books have been published and circulated amongst us the direct tendency and avowed
purpose of which is to excite insurrection and servile war with all their attendant horrors.
A President has recently been elected, an obscure and illiterate man without experience
in public affairs or any general reputation mainly if not exclusively on account of a
settled and often proclaimed hostility to our institutions and a fixed purpose to abolish
them. It is denied that it is the purpose of the party soon to enter into the possession of
the powers of the Federal Government to abolish slavery by any direct legislative act.
This has never been charged by any one. But it has been announced by all the leading
men and presses of the party that the ultimate accomplishment of this result is its
settled purpose and great central principle. That no more slave States shall be admitted
into the confederacy and that the slaves from their rapid increase (the highest evidence
of the humanity of their owners will become value less. Nothing is more certain than this
and at no distant day. What must be the condition of the slaves themselves when their
number becomes so large that their labor will be of no value to their owners. Their
natural tendency every where shown where the race has existed to idleness vagrancy
and crime increased by an inability to procure subsistence. Can any thing be more
impudently false than the pretense that this state of things is to be brought about from
considerations of humanity to the slaves.
Alabama
And as it is the desire and purpose of the people of Alabama to meet the slaveholding
States of the South, who may approve such purpose, in order to frame a provisional as
well as a permanent Government upon the principles of the Constitution of the United
States,
Some States declared other reasons for joining the confederacy but the core reason was
the economic benefit of slavery [and flat out racism in their various declarations] to those
states that formed the core that led to about 700,000 Americans dying.
The symbol of this racism in all its various forms:
The Confederate Flags
When you fly one of these rags you are not being a rebel, you are being a racist.

Oh it's just a symbol, yeah right, the bloodbath over that symbol in the name of slavery is part
of our history and not our future.
ORIGINALLY POSTED TO LAFEMINISTA ON FRI JUN 19, 2015 AT 01:23 AM PDT.
ALSO REPUBLISHED BY BARRIERS AND BRIDGES AND WHITE PRIVILEGE WORKING GROUP.
A Morning Muse Civil War Confederacy Racism Recommended Slavery
FROM THE WEB Sponsored Links by Taboola
Why Did No One Tell Drivers 4 in 5 Americans Are Ignoring Miley Cyrus Gleefully Makes
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* [new] Tip Jar: I'm tired of the bullshit over that rag (263+ / 0-)
"There is no such thing as the voiceless, only the deliberately silenced or the
preferably unheard" ~Arundhati Roy
by LaFeminista on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 01:22:32 AM PDT
* [new] That rag is not only rationalizing violence... (70+ / 0-)

against black people... it's also inspiring it.
"If one would give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest
man, I would find something in them to have him hanged." - 17th-century
French clergyman and statesman Cardinal Richelieu.
by markthshark on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 01:32:51 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] It always has done so from day one (43+ / 0-)

[ Parent ]
* [new] Confederate Flag: Emblem of Racism and Treason (63+ /

0-)
It's in the same category as the swastika. It symbolizes the brutalization,

subjugation, murder, torture, and rape of millions of people.
Hundreds of thousands died overturning the cause it represented.
Those who display it are racist and treasonous to these United States.
Period.
by Tackle on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:38:10 AM PDT
[ Parent ]

* [new] Folks ignore the racism part (24+ / 0-)
and forget the treason part.
Esse quam videri (To be, rather than to seem)
by Ptown boy in NC on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:17:31 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] I am forever willing to remind them. (18+ / 0-)
And do so quite frequently.
"Your great-granddaddy the traitor LOST that war, fair and square.
Grow the f*ck up."
An imagined spark of light at the end of the tunnel just might be a

glimmer of hope. -RT
by Joieau on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:44:04 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] It's the only insurrection that gets commemorated

(20+ / 0-)
It's also the only insurrection that had a realistic chance of success.
Nobody commemorates Shays' Rebellion.
There are at least 10 US Army bases named after Confederate

generals. Most, if not all, of them broke oaths to the duly elected
government of the US. Many of them were trained (at govt. expense)
at West Point.
It's understandable why, in an effort to reunite the country, neither

Confederate generals nor Confederate officeholders faced treason
charges. It's not understandable that traitors are honored by having
army bases named after them. It's even less understandable why,
150 years later, people commemorate a bloody rebellion that was
waged in support of the idea that members of one race of people
should own members of another.

Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream of things that
never were and ask why not?
by RFK Lives on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:16:25 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] Beautiful, eloquent, succint... (0+ / 0-)

How it could possibly be rationalized or found acceptable for one
human being to own another... and yet that, is at its very core,
what that obscene flag is about and what those confederate
general were fighting to preserve.
And throughout their writings, it was always, "God is on our side."

by Silverheels on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:44:18 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] The Germans didn't forget their history (19+ / 0-)

when they banned the display of the swastika. The Confederate flag(s) are in
the same category as Nazi symbols. I am beyond sick of racist traitor lovers
who declare the Confederacy flags as the cornerstone of their heritage.
the fact that you're right is nothing more than interesting
by Egg on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:27:07 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] Slavery and the preservation of slavery is the (0+ /

0-)
only thing that was the cornerstone of the southern heritage.

Demonic, evil, despicable, inexcusable slavery.
[ Parent ]

* [new] Not just racism and treason. (5+ / 0-)

Terrorism, too. The flag was used as a symbol to terrorize the black
population of the South, both immediately following the Civil War, and ever
since.
Anyone arguing that there's no difference between the parties is a fucking

moron who can simply go to hell. -- kos
by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:23:40 AM
PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] Why are you not on the front page? eom (7+ / 0-)
History [] furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil
government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their civil as well
as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes. T.
Jefferson
by RichM on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:43:42 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] And another oft ignored legacy (5+ / 0-)

Why is the US unique in having a 2nd amendment right to bear arms? Because
state militias, as apart from the need to maintain standing armies to protect
against enemies foreign, were critical for slave states to maintain control over
their sizable slave populations.
I strongly feel the reason the 2nd Amendment has been reinterpreted away from
a "well regulated militia" and to a personal individual right is to deflect away
from the original intent; to ensure a locally organized means of capturing escaped
slaves and putting down slave rebellions that couldn't be interfered with as a
backdoor means of ending slavery.
The polls don't tell us how a candidate is doing, the polls tell us how the media is
doing.
by Thumb on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:00:10 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
* [new] Oh, but it was really about States' Rights... (4+ / 0-)
...to have slaves. It wasn't the having slaves part that the war was about, it was
the RIGHT to have or not have slaves that the war was about. Because rights.
And the federal government was getting uppity--err--uh--I mean the federal
government was going very anti-slave--uh--I mean, the federal government was
getting anti-States' rights.
Because it's every States' God-given right to deprive any and all rights to certain
members of its population with specific skin tones. Anything else is tyranny and
anti-freedom.
See? That's a perfectly rational and sensible argument.
by Orange Crush on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:16:40 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] While independent self-directed people (33+ / 0-)
may not perceive it, there does seem to be a population of humans whose
behavior is mostly, if not totally, responsive to external prompts -- words and
shoves. In other words, there is a practical basis for the Cons' reliance on
propaganda and verbal communication. It's how they control their fan base.
Repetition seems to be necessary not just to develop habits, but because the
memories of their followers aren't too good.
For all we know, the cognitive function may well be as variable as what we
recognize as specialized talents for music or math or a color sense. Either that or
the processor is just missing, with the result that information is taken in,
accumulated and then spat back out at the prompt.
When the Cons speak of incentives and motivation and opportunities, they're
referring to the tools of manipulation that work with their base.
Virtue may be its own reward, but not with this crowd.
"If there be scoundrels, let them be incompetent."
by hannah on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 01:52:36 AM PDT

* [new] I'm tired of the right's propaganda, racism (44+ / 0-)

bigotry, sexism and complete denial of the facts. Hell, I even see some people
who should know better spouting the same bullshit.
[ Parent ]
* [new] I'm reminded of "mutually assured (15+ / 0-)

destruction." Some people considered that a positive.
The "creative destruction" crowd came up with that agenda because they
perceived it as preferable to being taken by surprise.
Destruction is certain; creation is not.
"If there be scoundrels, let them be incompetent."
by hannah on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:54:34 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] Yes I loved that total mindf**k (5+ / 0-)

[ Parent ]
* [new] You should have been there at the time. (0+ / 0-)
And by that, I don't mean just living during that time.
When you're talking about the deep south, keep one thing in mind - Who once
was a Democrat is now a Republican (unless they died first) Richard Nixon taught
us that.
by ex DROPKICK listener on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:57:17 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
* [new] Shit, there's some ass.... (2+ / 0-)

(who seems to be an African-American) spouting NRA horseshit about "They
shudda hadda gun or two" in another diary!
"Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing something about
THAT!"
by leftykook on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:41:08 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] The ironic thing is (9+ / 0-)

That gun control laws came to California under Reagan's governorship because
the white supremacists were panicking over black power groups getting armed.
So maybe if the black population did start Open Carrying in large numbers, we'd
actually see some movement on gun control laws.
by Witgren on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:14:58 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] Unfortunately you might be on to something (2+ / 0-)
this event is really dispiriting and deflating...
so the cynicism grows...yep if more black people were armed to defend

themselves from white racists I would not be the bit surprised to see 'sane
gun control' laws gaining favor with more Merkans...
Blue is blue and must be that but yellow is none the worse for it - Carlisle
Wheeling
by kenwards on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:02:50 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] It's basic behavioral principles: (5+ / 0-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/...
You can do it with dogs, rats, pigeons, etc and people who can't or don't think.
And even intelligent people can be manipulated using these principles given
powerful enough reinforcers.
Remember anger and aggression mask fear and pain. Have compassion.
by leftneckgirl on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 05:56:59 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] explains the Rcon party and Fakes News perfectly (2+ /
0-)
I have not yet succeeded, but that does not mean I have given up--TBM
Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:07:22 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] Faux Noise = Pavlovian Trigger for (1+ / 0-)
racist asshats who continue to try to fight the Civil War that their side lost
generations ago!
Hey Republicans - how's that GOVERNING thing going? Not so well, eh? Takes
real IDEAS to govern a nation successfully, not just endless race-baiting and
gainsaying driven by a failed ideology. #GOP FAIL
by dagnome on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:31:15 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] yup! pretty much! (0+ / 0-)


[ Parent ]
* [new] Yep (60+ / 0-)
There's a reason the Confederate Flag made a come back right around the time
the Supreme Court took up the case of Brown V. Board of Education.
Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of
separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon
with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi
Coates
by moviemeister76 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 01:53:53 AM PDT
* [new] I get so pissed off with people trying to say (42+ / 0-)
that it's just a symbol, it's a whole mindset.
[ Parent ]
* [new] The heritage argument is stupid (52+ / 0-)

The states were only out of the Union for a few years during the war. Most of the
actual heritage of all the Southern states was developed before the war. That flag
has only ever been about flaunting white supremacy.
Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of
separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon
with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi
Coates
by moviemeister76 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 02:07:31 AM PDT
[ Parent ]

* [new] As can be clearly seen in their declarations (21+ / 0-)

of secession, Florida stands out in that respect
[ Parent ]
* [new] Slavery is the "Heritage" they are referring to/ (8+ / 0-)
Further, affiant sayeth not. 53959
by Gary Norton on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:16:33 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] I know (13+ / 0-)
The CSA lost. Get over it. Their flag must go.
"Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing
glove." P.G. Wodehouse
by gsbadj on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:37:40 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] I'm using Chauncey's name for it: (41+ / 0-)
"The American Swastika." And those huge, glorious plantations around

Charleston? American concentration camps.
Watching Fox News is an Act of Racism.
by Tortmaster on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:38:04 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] Nominated to Top Comments. (8+ / 0-)

Thanks Tortmaster. Brief but cogent.

(Readers may not know that Tortmaster refers to chaunceydevega.)
by 2thanks on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 05:28:37 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] It is "just" a symbol, but symbols are powerful (17+ / 0-)
The Confederate flag is a symbol of slavery, white supremacy, and terrorism

directed toward African-Americans. There are no virtues attached to it. None.
It's a symbol of evil.
I suppose it's possible that some of the people who display the Confederate flag
either don't know its full history, or are in some level of denial, but I'm more
inclined to think that they are in full agreement with the evil principles it
represents, even if that agreement is unconscious.
-5.13,-5.64; GOP thinking: A 13 year path to citizenship is too easy, and a 5

minute background check is too burdensome. -- 1audreyrenee
by gizmo59 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 05:43:35 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] no virtues attached to it (6+ / 0-)
The Confederate flag is a symbol of slavery, white supremacy, and

terrorism directed toward African-Americans.
and it is beloved by people who wish those days were still here
[ Parent ]
* [new] I get upset with that, too. When I hear that I go (18+ /
0-)
through a Q & A with the person spouting that crap.

Me:A symbol of what?

A: A symbol for all the men who fought and died under it.
Me: Fought and died for what?
A: state's rights
Me: Phone Google --> Here, I'll wait while you read the SC Declaration of
Sucession.
A: Okay, well it's still a symbol of those who fought and died.
Me: They fought and died FOR slavery as traitors AGAINST our country. I don't
feel warm fuzzies for people who attack our country, why do you?
A: crickets
And, I have to go through this whole thing way too damn often.
Plutocracy (noun) Greek ploutokratia, from ploutos wealth; 1) government by the

wealthy; 2) 21st c. U.S.A.; 3) 22nd c. The World
by bkamr on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:21:57 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] The history of the Georgia (4+ / 0-)

state flag is a perfect illustration.
"The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The

object of power is power. Now do you begin to understand me?" ~Orwell, "1984"
by Lily O Lady on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:42:28 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] Expand or die (32+ / 0-)
I saw an old library book of photos by Matthew Brady, something like a pictorial
history of the Civil War, with text purportedly also by Brady, although I wasn't
aware that he was also an author. In any case, the text was definitely written
from an straight-ahead abolitionist perspective and offered a novel (to me)
explanation of why the South Carolina seceded immediately, more or less, after
Lincoln's election, before he even assumed office.
The main impetus cited was the plank in the Republican platform of 1860 that
slavery would be prohibited from expanding into the territories. According to
Brady, the slavocracy was in an expand-or-die situation. He even talked of a

grand conspiracy to expand slavery into Mexico and South America. So even in
the best-case scenario (for slave states that is), if the Lincoln administration and
Congress allowed the existing slave states to continue, slavery would be doomed.
As new states would be carved out of the territories, each with two Senators and
at least one Representative, slave state influence in government would die. Thus
the secession and Ft. Sumter.
by joeknapp on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 02:26:56 AM PDT
* [new] PS (11+ / 0-)
Ah, I found an Amazon link to this book, and unlike my library book, it correctly
identifies the author of the text, Benson Lossing:
Matthew Brady's Illustrated History of the Civil War
[ Parent ]
* [new] oops--correct link (8+ / 0-)

Matthew Brady's Illustrated History of the Civil War
[ Parent ]
* [new] Having fun? TY for the links (6+ / 0-)
;-)
http://www.mathewbrady.com/...
[ Parent ]
* [new] Thank you... I just bought a copy on eBay... (0+ / 0-)

Right now, I'm in the middle of the three volume masterpiece by Shelby Foote,
"The Civil War." It's definitely not "illustrated," not a photo in it.. though there
are a good many maps.
I've got bets with myself whether I'll live long enough to read all 3000+ small-
print pages, but Foote is such a beautiful, entertaining writer.
I first discovered him in Ken Burn's PBS series, The Civil War, which is a
masterpiece in its own right. Burns would take Foote out to a battlefield site, or
put him in a Civil War museum, turn the camera on and just let him talk. I found
him fascinating and he's one of the few people with a strong southern accent
that doesn't just annoy the hell out of me.
He's absolutely southern by birth and he admits it, but it's also very clear that he
knows the south was as wrong and deluded as it could possibly be - in every
way.
[ Parent ]
* [new] Karl Marx writing a s a long-distance war reporter (6+ /

0-)
... for the German press had a similar analysis. The North had no ability to end
slavery in the South, but would be able to block any further expansion of
slaveholding America. The slave states in te deep South were exhausting their
soil, but producing more and more slaves -- and needed a bigger market -- the
West, the Caribbean, Central America, even maybe Colombia and Venezuela.
They also were certain that once the Missippi was blocked, the y would gradually
have mid-western states abandoning the Union -- leaving only NY and New
England as the tattered remnant of the USA. They envisioned a majestic empire -
- and saw Lincoln as a weak individual who would not be able to stand in their
way. Thus, they felt they should strike while the iron was hot.
by Jackson L Haveck on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:19:07 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] You are correct. Hardcore Rebs envisioned a (19+ / 0-)
Slaveholding empire throughout the Gulf of Mexico and Caribbean.

It wasn't the only reason, but it was a big part.
Thump! Bang. Whack-boing. It's dub!
by dadadata on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:05:45 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] They didn't just envision it (2+ / 0-)

Some of them tried to create their own slaveholding "colonies" in Central
America.
1. Books are for use.
by looty on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:24:12 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] McPherson's "Battle Cry of Freedom" covers it too (9+ /

0-)
According to McPherson, one group of lunatics tried to invade Cuba with a private
army of nutcases, after having their own "Bay of Pigs"-style fiasco, then falling
back and regrouping in Mobile, they tried it again in Honduras, winding up
standing in front of a wall with a lotta bullet-marks on it!
They apparently had some lunatic scheme of a Planter-led ring of states

surrounding the Gulf and Carribbean!
THAT!"
[ Parent ]
* [new] Seward, Lincoln's Secretary of State, also (6+ / 0-)

proposed taking Canada as a solution to the fragmenting of the Union. He
assumed that having a common enemy would bring North and South back
together, and would divert the Southern Planters from Adventures further south
to expand slavery.

Both sides had become Exceptionalist Imperialists in response to slavery. Once

the practice of using violence, torture, summary execution, colonization of lands
and genocide on native people had become common practice, only a handful of
weirdo dissidents, the Abolitionists, were sane enough to propose an end to the
root cause of American bloody violence. One county in Alabama voted AGAINST
secession, and voted to remain in the Union due to their opposition to slavery.
The Civil War was not lines on a map; it was a contest of several worldviews, and
we lucked out in having Lincoln as a visionary leader. It was a very close run
thing. It even destroyed Lincoln. When it was over, no one had the moral
authority to say, Take That Damned Bloody Shirt off the pole, and we remain
stuck with that symbol of our primitive past to this day.
Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain
by OregonOak on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 05:16:21 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] And the vicious monsters killed their best friend! (8+ / 0-)
President Lincoln was the only friend they had left after the war, he wanted a
magnanimous policy toward the South and an even-handed Reconstruction, his
murder by Secessionist die-hards insured that the South would suffer heavily in
the post-war years.
The very definition of "Hoist by yer own petard"...
The country went completely bug-fuck after the President's murder. The "death
pageant" our country conducted is an amazing thing to read about, I suggest
those interested find a copy of Bloody Crimes by James Swanson, which
juxtaposes the national freakout over the President's murder against the hunt for
the fleeing Jefferson Davis....
THAT!"
[ Parent ]
* [new] And killed our hopes of a Peaceful Republic (15+ / 0-)

up until the present day. Lincoln's death guaranteed that the Civil War would

remain stuck in place for the next 150 years, with no reconciliation, no
consensus about meanings, and no consensus about Liberal Humanitarian
organization of the economy.
We are now trying to create the economy Lincoln began; a Liberal Humanistic
one based on honest rewards for work, not on usury of others for profit. We
still have a long way to go.
[ Parent ]
* [new] You nailed it. (9+ / 0-)

We STILL suffer from the consequences of the cowardly murder of the
most important President we ever had!
"Ronald Reagan is DEAD! His policies live on but we're doing

something about THAT!"
[ Parent ]
* [new] Lincoln might have made it worse, actually. (0+ /

0-)
The elite class in the confederacy would never have changed a thing
without motivation. Coddling them would not have motivated them to
change a damn thing. Many in the south sound just like the Germans
of the 20's and 30's, didn't learn a damn thing from the slaughter of
WW1, just that they were "stabbed in the back". It took the white hot
cleansing of WWII to clean out that filth.
WTF!?!?!?! When did I move to the Republic of Gilead?!
by IARXPHD on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:43:26 AM PDT
[ Parent ]

* [new] Yup, the "filibusters" as they were called (1+ / 0-)
were folks who'd go down to Central America or the Caribbean and try to
overthrow the government and set up a slaveholding US client state. Thankfully,
it never worked and most of them ended up dying in the attempt or getting
hanged or shot afterward.
by Witgren on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:17:28 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] After the Dred Scott decision? (1+ / 0-)
Good basic point but the irony is that succession gave Licolin the only way he
could possibly end slavery. The court was pro-slave and the Republicans did not
have enough of a majority to abolish slavery even if they had a united front on
the issue.
by Orcas George on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:45:24 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] Racism and hatred have been a handy tool (24+ / 0-)
for conservatives to seize power. And there seems to be an endless supply of
fools that buy into this crap.
Voter suppression, racism, ridiculing the poor, calling the less fortunate lazy, and
fearmongering. Same old same old. Yet the voters seem to buy it every time.
Pathetic.
A true craftsman will meticulously construct the apparatus of his own demise.
by onionjim on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 02:32:26 AM PDT
* [new] They buy it because they want it. (10+ / 0-)
There are a lot of perverted people in this world who get off on stomping on other
people.
Conservatives/Republicans/Racists sell them exactly what they want.
Killing doesn't lead to epiphany.

by nosleep4u on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 05:26:13 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] you can boil it down to a definition of winning (11+ / 0-)

I see this as a tennis coach all the time. Often I will set up games of cooperation
as training tools.
Some people are ok with games in which a player can win without another player
losing (how many times can we hit the ball back and forth without anyone
missing?)
Others feel no sense of accomplishment through these games, and must have a
winner and loser to be motivated to play. When they win they gloat, and when
they lose they sulk.
I have also noticed a strong correlation between these types and unethical play
(bad line calls, etc).
we need to get past the zero sum idea that one person's happiness is a function
of another's misery.
Last full month in which the average daily temperature did not exceed twentieth-
century norms: 2/1985 - Harper's Index, 2/2013 UPDATE 2/2015: still true,
getting worse. 2014 hottest year ever.
by kamarvt on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 05:40:51 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] Of course they did (26+ / 0-)
To me, the more troubling question is why southern politicians still defend flying
the confederate flag over government buildings. I don't see that flag as being a
heritage worth defending. To note, I think people have the right to fly whatever
flag they want over their personal property but that doesn't extend to
government. Bring the confederate flag down now over the government
buildings.
"The real wealth of a nation consists of the contributions of its people and
nature." -- Riane Eisler
by noofsh on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 02:38:45 AM PDT

* [new] Its a handy label to indentity idiots, some of (13+ / 0-)
whom have no idea what that rag actually stands for, they might as well be flying
a swastika on their property as far as I am concerned.
[ Parent ]
* [new] You should bold the most offensive passages (14+ / 0-)
This is a great takedown of that offensive lie.
by quince on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 02:48:10 AM PDT
* [new] I thought about that, but I thought they were (9+ / 0-)
offensive enough as they were.
[ Parent ]
* [new] still, some people's attention spans are short (1+ / 0-)
[ Parent ]
* [new] I used to be fine with the Confederate Flag (13+ / 0-)
until it really struck me how powerful symbols are. The cross inspires hope in
Christians, the nazi symbols inspires terror to Jews and lots of other people too.
The Confederate flag doesn't mean anything to me, but it has a chilling effect on

a significant portion of our population and invokes ghost of a terrible war waged
for the purpose of keeping a people enslaved. It's worth banning.
http://www.jasonluthorwriting.com
by DAISHI on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:09:14 AM PDT
* [new] A History teacher in high school ... (7+ / 0-)
... tried to slide this one by me. No-fucking-way. That was way back in the
1970s.
A couple years ago, I went on the Fort Sumter tour in Charleston. I went again
last year with my son. I was listening carefully (and reading all the brochures
attentively) for any of the States' Rights bullshit. Didn't hear (or read) any, but
that's probably because it is a Federal site run by the United States Government.
By the way, the best analogy I can think of is if Jeffrey Dahmer were to have
said, "What? I committed a crime. That's all." The response, of course, is, "No,
son, you raped and murdered and ate people." Ouch. That was a little grosser
than I anticipated.
Watching Fox News is an Act of Racism.
by Tortmaster on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:35:53 AM PDT
* [new] Nuance is a shield for Confederate apologists (23+ / 0-)
And it can be unfortunately effective, in that nuance often contains undeniable

facts. The Civil War, like all civil wars, had many causes and these facts are what
many apologists hold onto.
As a historian, however, I always tell people that the short answer as to why the
war was fought was "over slavery." But the long answer - containing all the
nuanced other arguments" is also "over slavery." There is no other explanation.
What we had in the 1860s was two economies in collision, one based on enslaved
labor and the other on free labor. The economy based on slavery was also
politically powerful simply because it was so effective in generating money. And
let's not forget that this "slave power," as Lincoln called it, was pervasive: most
of the banks, insurance companies and investment firms of the north were fully
involved in cotton economy produced in the South through slave labor. This was
a national issue, not a Southern issue alone.

And it is also undeniably true that slavery (with some notable exceptions) almost
exclusively involved people of African descent on a purely racialist rationale.
Southern politicians, defending their economic and political power, put the nation
on a course to war. The aim of the war was not to end slavery, but everyone -
and I mean everyone - knew that if the proponents of free labor and a new
economy won, then it would mean the end of slavery and the breaking of "slave
power."
There are many complex facts about the war; it truly did produce heroes, as all
wars do. But the bravery and sacrifice of Southern soldiers (like mine) has
always to be placed in context against the monstrous system that their Cause
ultimately supported.
by GarySeven on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:39:25 AM PDT
* [new] They fundamentally believed in white supremacy (16+ /

0-)
as can be seen in the declarations above.
Their economy was based on enslaving others.
[ Parent ]
* [new] Like Most Wars... (5+ / 0-)
The soldiers were men, who when the war was over would have, at absolute
best, the 'opportunity' to return to the same dead-end existence they were in
before the war with their bodies all in one piece.
They were brainwashed by idealist notions into doing the dirty work of killing and
dying for the perpetuation of the status-quo of the ownership class.
by JohnnySacks on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:02:46 AM PDT
[ Parent ]

* [new] And today, instead of cotton, the MIC is (1+ / 0-)
Good at generating money.
By the way, if it wasn't a war over slavery, the English would have been quick to
step in.
[ Parent ]
* [new] True, but ... (3+ / 0-)
The English also had other sources for cotton, namely India. So they could also
claim that as an excuse for staying out our war for the very sizable number of
their own citizens (including Prince Albert) who were Southern sympathizers.
Other leaders, like Napoleon in France and the Russian Czar could afford to sit
back, watch the US tear itself apart, and then come in and pick up the pieces.
Napoleon already had a puppet in Mexico, Maximillian, ready for just such a
possibility.
[ Parent ]
* [new] Sources of cotton, perhaps, but what about (2+ / 0-)

The financial links with NYC?
[ Parent ]
* [new] The links to NYC were direct and indirect (4+ / 0-)
Atlanta, for example, had several warehouses leased to Liverpool and

Manchester firms, so they had a direct investment there, and the warehouses
themselves were insured through the ancestors of such firms as Prudential
and the Hartford. A lot of people were making money and no one had to pay

the workers; that is what made slavery such an economic engine for the
South AND the North, because the overhead was virtually nil. It is why it
lasted as long as it did against free labor, and why it took a war to destroy
slavery.
[ Parent ]
* [new] Purposeful Application of Violence (6+ / 0-)
What made slavery such an economic engine for the South was its
purposeful application of violence in order to maximize output while
minimizing input. Overheads in running a plantation were not
insubstantial, but the owners could force treble production of outputs
with bare subsistence levels of inputs. The slave system was
essentially state-sanctioned privately owned concentration camps.
Think of it as a privatized SS industrial empire. Why wouldn't such a
system be an economic engine par excellence? Feed your workers at
starvation levels after having whipped and beaten them into producing
every day some multiple of what an average worker could produce
under such circumstances. And, since they were "property," killing a
recalcitrant slave was not a crime. That's real power for some people.
"Love the Truth, defend the Truth, speak the Truth, and hear the
Truth" - Jan Hus, d.1415 CE
by PrahaPartizan on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:01:51 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] I couldn't have said it better (4+ / 0-)
the triumph of free labor over slave labor was a turning point in
civilization; one that some try to deny happened and which others
work hard to reverse.
Some apologists for slavery would like to dispute your statement

about slaves being regularly whipped and beaten, but that's
another area of nuance that they like to cling behind. Yes, beating
and harming "property" was counterproductive, but mental harm
is, I submit, even more cruel. The denial of a person's humanity,

the theft of their labor, the inherent insecurity of a position, the

emotional shattering of family bonds - all no less cruel than
lashing.
It should be pointed out, also, I think, that modern-day

conservatives, with their desire to eliminate all worker protections
at law, and who enact policies designed to exact fealty from
workers from the hand of corporate masters, is not significantly
different from the slavery of old.
[ Parent ]
* [new] Slaves who tried to escape were tortured

(3+ / 0-)
The idea that planters would not physically damage their
property is false, slaves who escaped threatened the whole
value system. If you were not able to work or have babies
you were valueless. If you threatened the system by trying to
escape your only value was the example they could make of
you. You have probably seen the pictures. (I never seem to
be able to get pictures to embed on kos)
One thing that surprised me is that the majority of

slaveholders were small investors, it was not just the large
planters. Dred Scott was typical, he was owned by a woman
who rented him out just like one would rent out a horse that
you owned.
[ Parent ]
* [new] "rented out" slaves built the White House

(2+ / 0-)
they worked and their "owners" got paid
I have not yet succeeded, but that does not mean I have
given up--TBM

Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go

forward put it in D.
by TrueBlueMajority on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:12:14

AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] Gary.... they were around at that time? (0+ / 0-)
Can you and LaFem try to condense this and submit to Thom
Hartman, NYT, WaPo HuffPo, Politico and any place else that might
publish? As a student of history and political science I don't think I
ever understood it until today.
Thanks to both of you.
by victoria2dc on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:35:17 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] The MIC is very powerful, but it mostly... (2+ / 0-)
...serves as handmaiden to those Elites who control key resources or

enterprises dependent on physical security.
Change does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability, but comes through
continuous struggle. --Martin Luther King Jr.
by Egalitare on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:34:19 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] I think it was EXPANSION of slavery (3+ / 0-)

and using the courts to overrule the right of states to outlaw the holding of
slaves was one of their weapons, Dred Scott wasn't just about one unfortunate
slave who was held to continue to be property in spite of being in a "free" state,
it actually meant that the slavers could have slaves anywhere they chose,
without regard to local laws, thus rendering the "free" states laws moot!
THAT!"

[ Parent ]
* [new] Abroggation of States Rights (3+ / 0-)
Dred Scott destroyed states' rights. It should have also destroyed states' rights
arguments forever. The South wanted the Federal government to establish the
standard, until it came time to be applied to them. The principal behind Dred
Scott has never been overturned to my knowledge and the conservatives keep
trying to apply it on other fronts as well, but only to those causes they support.
Conservative authoritarian thugs always think they're "special."
"Love the Truth, defend the Truth, speak the Truth, and hear the Truth" - Jan
Hus, d.1415 CE
[ Parent ]
* [new] Our history.... (3+ / 0-)

....as taught in grade school is REALLY deficient in explaining the meaning of Dred
Scott to our country, I was taught that "one guy claimed he should be free
'cause he made it to a free state, the Court said 'Naah' and people were grumpy
about it" while completely overlooking the legal implications of the ruling. I never
understood the significance of the ruling until beginning to re-learn our history in
the recent past.
THAT!"
[ Parent ]
* [new] He was taken to a free state (2+ / 0-)

But the decision was even worse because the majority implied that even free
blacks could be enslaved.

[ Parent ]
* [new] Dred Scott was actually taken to a free (0+ / 0-)

territory, to a federal military fort named Fort Snelling
near present day Saint Paul, MN, which was at the time part of the
Wisconsin territory. His owner was a doctor serving at the post. Not
trying to be pedantic, but it is an interesting and complicated story.
The trial was held in the federal court house in St. Louis, Missouri, still
standing in the shadow of the Arch.
by mniowan on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:30:14 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] Thank you (0+ / 0-)

This hits at something my husband and I talked about recently - ddo you have to
ignore the bravery of some poor peasant schlub (my words, not his) who thought
he was fighting for the good of his state because the people running the war
were criminals?
We never did come to a conclusion. I tend to lean on the side of 'it was treason
and rebellion, for an immoral cause'...he, less so. Some of that, I think, is
because he's from the South, so has seen the long-term effects of the horror
that was Reconstruction as well. So many wounds that were never healed...and
have now festered for generations.
by NoBlinkers on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:18:47 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] Not so sure. (12+ / 0-)
the bloodbath over that symbol in the name of slavery is part of our
history and not our future.
Slavery is this country's original sin; and while it and the bloodbath over it
have ended in the formal, legal sense, in practice black and white Americans
remain unequal. The country may not do a full-scale Gettysburg or Antietam, not

anymore, but the smaller bloodlettings go on, in Ferguson, Staten Island, and so
on.
The problem from hell.
Fuck me, it's a leprechaun.
by MBNYC on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 03:46:34 AM PDT
* [new] I suppose it's a hope, and yes the bloodletting (2+ / 0-)
still goes on.
[ Parent ]
* [new] this! (2+ / 0-)

[ Parent ]
* [new] Don't forget the CSA Constitution. (9+ / 0-)

Which they all ratified.
Of course, those documents are not taught in schools. And certainly not in the
South.
* [new] Link (1+ / 0-)
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/...

[ Parent ]
* [new] They also opposed taxes to fund infrastructure (10+ / 0-)
A key tenet of the 1860 GOP (the name is the same, but only that) was to
impose tariffs (taxes) on imported goods to protect the USA nascent industries
(e.g., steel) and use the revenues from those taxes to fund infrastructure
(railroads, telegraph, canals).
The Confederates were aghast that the 1% of the day might have to pay more
for cloth from Manchester and Leeds.
The more things change the more the stay the same.
by barry s on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:04:50 AM PDT
* [new] Yes, the Democrats in that day HATED (12+ / 0-)

the Internal Improvements ideas of Lincoln's new Republican Party. The Southern
Democrats wanted all public functions to remain primitive or funded from the
wealth of individual plantations, which functioned as Counties. This, to them,
elevated the exceptionally gifted individuals to position of Noblesse Oblige, as
Dukes and Earls in the old country, and negated the influence of the rude, the
rural, the vulgar, the pedestrian, the plebian, the democracy. It made the
Aristocracy the defacto Local, State AND National government by owning all the
wealth that those other democratic institutions needed to function for the good of
the peasants. It re-created Monarchy in the United States. The Monarchists of
Europe loved the Confederacy; it was reliable in its support of oppression of the
common people and concentration of wealth to a few hands.
There is a direct line of connection between the Republican faith in the

Corporation today and the Democrat faith in the Slaveholding Plantation then.
When the Democrats switched sides on the Internal Improvements debate at the
time of FDR to LBJ, the South switched sides to the Republicans, and now
represent the same ideals of the Slaveholding Monarchists of 1860.

[ Parent ]
* [new] The South hated the idea of all industry (1+ / 0-)
They didn't want industrial machines, they wanted manual slave labor.
And in that ideal, what is infrastructure needed for? Why should one plantation
pay to build a bridge across a stream on another plantation? Let them build their
own bridge if they need it.
It's industry that demands infrastructure. When machines are churning out shiny
new goods, you're not going to haul them to market behind a mule on a dirt
road.
by Norm in Chicago on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:22:11 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] Actually they loved the idea of industry powered (1+ / 0-)
By slaves. Richmond was turning into a major industrial town. It is part of the
myth that it was farmers against industry but it is also false. The CSA made
cannons, trains, and ironclads. Southern industry was a casualty of the war.
[ Parent ]
* [new] You're wrong. we live too far removed from then. (0+ /
0-)
"It's no measure of health being well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"
by buckshot face on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:18:30 AM PDT
* [new] ? (1+ / 0-)
So the modern confederate flag is not the same as the confederate flag of slave
states?
Is that what you're trying to get at?

We should not associate racism and treason with the modern confederate flag?
And flying the modern confederate flag over a state capital building shouldn't be
taken as a "Fuck you America, we're proud of our racist, treasonous past!"
If that is what your getting at, then you are wrong.
These recent murders of unarmed, peaceful African Americans in a house of

worship by a white southern racist screams out we ain't that far removed
from then.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then
beat you with experience. Mark Twain
by Pescadero Bill on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:26:45 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] To be completely pendantic and accurate (0+ / 0-)
The flag we are talking about was one of many variations of a unit battle flag.
The first version ( and I am not making this up) was white.
Both sides were fairly incompetent at war (but good at killing.) There is little to
be proud of in the mess.
[ Parent ]
* [new] i didn;t read it that way (0+ / 0-)

i could be wrong, but I thought the point was that we should keep this history
right in the forefront of our minds if we want to heal the past
[ Parent ]
* [new] Orwellian (0+ / 0-)

double plus good doublespeak. You can heal from the past if you stop living in it
and honoring it. That flag belongs in a museum along with swastikas; flying it
over the state grounds honors it.
Never forget, American men, women and children DIED for the eight hour
workday at the hands of OUR TROOPS. - 1914 Ludlow Massacre at the hands of
the Colorado National Guard
by Vega on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:30:19 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] not what i meant at all (0+ / 0-)
i'm still not sure what buckshot face meant, but I know what *I* mean
the reason that flag flies is that there is not enough outrage about it from the
general public
and the reason there is not a lot of outrage is because people do not know
what it really stands for
and the reason people do not know what it really stands for is because we do
not talk about slavery and racism and the Civil War in an honest way
we have to put the truth of that history right in people's faces
but people are burying it and running from it and refusing to acknowledge it
at all, and that is one reason why the country does not heal
[ Parent ]
* [new] Not *only* slavery. And that there were multiple (1+ / 0-)
reasons opens up mental elbow room for them to try and put
something else up front.
And that's ok, really. It shows they are embarrassed about slavery, and that's a
good thing. How to use the embarrassment to end the confederate flag flying
still, I don't know.

by JayFromPA on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:21:11 AM PDT
* [new] They're not embarrassed enough- (9+ / 0-)
or at least they're not embarrassed about the right thing. They don't like being
reminded about slavery, but it's kind of like how liars don't like being caught in a
lie- it's not the lie they told but the fact that they got caught that bothers them.
They don't want people calling attention to slavery because they know they're
supposed be embarrassed and contrite and ashamed about it. But if they really
felt those things, they'd never want to see that goddamn flag again, and Mark
Sanford would not be on Morning Joe right now spouting bullshit about states'
rights and family pride and heritage.
by gramofsam1 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:48:58 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] They're not embarrassed nt (3+ / 0-)

nosotros no somos estpidos
by a2nite on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:31:03 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] The slave states were permanent prison camps (10+ / 0-)
and so the fire-breathers imagined that order had to be maintained. That was
what the war was about.
And from Bruce Levine, Fall of the House of Dixie, p. 3:
At prices quoted on the markets of the day, those nearly four million
(enslaved) human beings were worth something like $3 billion -- an
immense sum, especially at that time a sum that exceeded the value of
all the farmland in all the states of the South, a sum fully three times as
great as the construction costs of all the railroads that then ran
throughout all of the United States.
Let's be clear -- the prison camp that was the South was at the time equated
with American capitalism itself. The South fought a war to protect value, as

possessed by the plantation aristocrats.

"Well I think the first thing is to have an honest conversation." -- Richard D.
Wolff
by Cassiodorus on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:34:06 AM PDT
* [new] Yes, I think the diarist is (0+ / 0-)

trying to change history.
The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney
by dfarrah on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:10:04 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] I think the point people are trying to make (2+ / 0-)
is that, in 1861, slavery was in no danger of being eliminated from the USA via
an amendment or congressional bill, given the South's influence and numbers.
But the South saw the writing on the wall. They saw the resistance to
establishing new slave states. They saw the election of Abraham Lincoln, who at
the time of his election was not really an abolitionist, but was still a Republican.
And they saw that the North was taking full advantage of the Industrial
Revolution while they were being left behind.
So I do kind of see the point of the people who say that the Civil War was not
about slavery. It absolutely was, but it was really more about the future of
slavery and the future of the South and their economic advantage than the
immediate preservation of slavery.
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it... unless it agrees
with your own reason and your own common sense." -The Buddha
by Brian A on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:35:26 AM PDT
* [new] Slavery was the basis of their money. (9+ / 0-)
Free labor is incredibly profitable, and still is, so the south claims it was about
the economic terms of the country, while the rest of us know that claim is just
code words to hide the basis of their wealth; free labor and expendable human

beings.
That is still the fight going on with TPP and the Freedom for Corporations
movement which understands perfectly their connection to the ideals of the
Slaveholding South. It is the same economic movement.
[ Parent ]
* [new] Propety Over People (5+ / 0-)

Which is the reason the new Pope scares them so. He's reminding many that
prosperity theology is heresy and a lie.
Hus, d.1415 CE
[ Parent ]
* [new] Protestants went off the Rails.. and dragged (3+ / 0-)
the entire country along with them in claiming virtue created wealth, and
therfore, wealth defines virtue. Even the majority of Catholics in the United
States, in order to survive here, had to believe it since their churches were
burned in the 1820's and Catholics were outlawed from immigration here.
The clear and present awareness is how far down the spiral the Wealth Theology
has dragged us; from genocide of Native Americans and Chinese laborers, to
slavery of Africans and wage theft of new immigrants in every decade of our
nation, to the current theft of Foreign Labor in Trade Agreements which benefit
only a handful of obscenely rich Americans, a Neo-Colonial mindest present from
the beginning is starting to unravel in the face of resource depletion and the
awakening of the people of the world to the usury of our own predatory class..
We had better get on the right side of this fight, finally, or the anger of the world
is about to settle on our shoulders, even from within.

[ Parent ]
* [new] The RCC has plenty of gold (0+ / 0-)

[ Parent ]
* [new] Actually.... (6+ / 0-)

....they went to war against our country because they objected to the election of
Abraham Lincoln!
Recall that they opened hostilities just days after his inaugeration....
They had their tantrum almost immediately.
They weren't just trying to maintain the status quo, they wanted to EXPAND
slavery, both in the new territories AND in the free states!
It is rarely discussed that Dred Scott ACTUALLY gave a legal right to hold slaves
IN ANY STATE without regard for the desires of their citizens!
These traitorous scum weren't satisfied with oppressing their human property in
their Libertarian Paradises, not at ALL, they wanted to EXPAND slavery to the
West and allow it in the North.
One band of bozos wanted the US to invade Cuba, raised their own army and had
their own little "Bay of Pigs" and basically got smashed by the Spaniards, then
the same bunch (at least the survivors and a few new True Believers) tried it
again in Honduras, with more, ahem, FINAL results!
These people were part of a group that wanted the Southern planters to have a
ring of slave outposts ringing the Carribbean and Gulf!
Read "Battle Cry of Freedom" by James M McPherson. This eye-opening book

explores the Civil War from its roots in the politics of the first half of the
Nineteenth Century to Appomattox, the politics background of the war are so
extensive that the attack on Ft Sumter doesn't take place until the middle of the
thick book. The politics are amazing on their own!

THAT!"
* [new] Sounds really similar to today, doesn't it? (5+ / 0-)

The Right went to war against our country and opened hostilities just days after
the inauguration of Obama.
And the fall of slavery led to the rise of the Corporation. Which also seeks to
always EXPAND into new territories. Hence NAFTA, CAFTA, WTO and TPP.
There's really no difference between slavery and a corporation's use of
communist slave-lite labor, where the factories are almost prisons.
Then we have illegal immigration and all the justifications for migrant labor and
paying less than minimum wage to harvest crops. Even here we get that shit.
"If GA deports all the migrants, the crops will rot in the fields".
Slavery didn't go away, it just got more sophisticated and found new legal cover.
[ Parent ]
* [new] Most of what you said.... (1+ / 0-)

....is similar to what I thought while reading McPherson's narrative description of
the politics leading to the Civil War, it isn't "the same" but there are amazing
similarities!
THAT!"
[ Parent ]
* [new] Cartoonist needed, will pay (4+ / 0-)
want image of an evil looking "confederate" flag (maybe with a shadow of a nazi
flag?), dripping blood on churches, streets, etc. Maybe the US as a background
with the blood washing over the south? Looking for imagery evoking the emotion
of loss, outrage, heartbreak on the inequality of it all. what part of "all men are

created equal" is so hard to understand?
''The guarding of military and diplomatic secrets at the expense of informed

representative government provides no real security for our Republic.'' - Justice
Hugo L. Black of the Supreme Court
by geekydee on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:49:07 AM PDT
* [new] Im bout to pass out (0+ / 0-)
But technically I could do this, I'm pretty sure.
http://www.jasonluthorwriting.com
by DAISHI on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 05:37:52 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] Waving the Bloody Shirt.. (2+ / 0-)
Goes back to prehistoric times, when tribes would battle for land, power, gold,
breeding rights, or whatever cause they could think up. Any level of violence can
be justified when the blood of your relatives is displayed on a pole. This is as
primitive an instinct as we have, and the gesture is recognized the world over as
a call to violence for tribal vengeance.
That it still exist in the United States is a testament to the poor quality of our
literary, mythological and symbolic education, the weakness of our liberal
traditions, and the elevation of tribalism to politics. That is what must end. We
have to teach Democracy and Democratic Ethics in schools, in churches, on the
television, and in our homes for the first time, ever, and move beyond the
mythological tribalism of our prehistoric past, finally.
If it cannot be done here, we fail as a republic.
* [new] Never miss one of your comments - whether facts (4+ /

0-)
or rants they never fail to hit the mark. But this is the best ever. How

conveniently the pro-Confederates claim it wasn't about slavery...

As a child in Virginia living through the Civil War Centennial 1961-65 not one
word was ever said about slavery. I knew more about it from Gone With the
Wind than from my history education.
Yet we went on a class trip to Richmond and visited the White House of the
Confederacy where Jefferson Davis lived. We were taught to call it the 'War
Between the States' or more extremely the 'War of Northern Aggression'.
We were encouraged to look the other way when visiting Mount Vernon,
Monticello, and the Arlington home of Robert E. Lee. No, kids, don't see those
slave quarters...
O Jungens, ich will doch gar kein Mensch sein (Berthold Brecht, 'Mahagonny')
by richardvjohnson on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 05:09:46 AM PDT
* [new] Who Burned Atlanta? (4+ / 0-)
And the Confederates rely on the mistaken meme that it was Sherman who
burned Atlanta. It wasn't. The Confederates burned the city when they
withdrew because they couldn't take the supplies with them and wanted to deny
them to the Union. All it takes is a little creative lying, and the neo-Confederates
have become very good at it with 150 years of practice.
Hus, d.1415 CE
[ Parent ]
* [new] Same thing happened in Richmond, which was saved (3+ /

0-)
from total destruction only by brave Union soldiers who finally got the fires under
control.
O Jungens, ich will doch gar kein Mensch sein (Berthold Brecht, 'Mahagonny')
by richardvjohnson on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:43:22 AM PDT
[ Parent ]

* [new] Richmond got out of control (3+ / 0-)

"Only" the arsenals etc were supposed to burn - but with no one to control them,
the fires spread.
You can't do a controlled burn when you're getting out of town.
If it's
Not your body,
Then it's
Not your choice
And it's
None of your damn business!
by TheOtherMaven on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:14:32 AM PDT
[ Parent ]
* [new] even Gone With the Wind got that part right (2+ / 0-)
at 0:15:
seeing fire in the distance, Scarlett says: "What's that"?

Rhett: "Our gallant lads must have set fire to the warehouses
near the depot. Enough ammunition in the boxcars down there to
blow us to Tara. We'll have to hurry if we're gonna get across the
tracks..."
and at 2:05
Rhett: "They haven't left much for the Yankees to take. We'll
have to make a dash for it before the fire reaches that ammunition."
[ Parent ]
* [new] Proposal (4+ / 0-)
We should eliminate Southern holidays honoring the Confederacy, including

Jefferson Davis's and Lee's birthdays, and replace them with a holiday honoring
General George Thomas.
http://generalthomas.com/
by libera nos on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 05:22:29 AM PDT
* [new] Lee-Jackson Day is multiply offensive (1+ / 0-)
Old Stonewall is bad enough, but I have a sneaking suspicion a few people think
it also refers to that genocidal maniac Old Hickory.
If it's
Not your body,
Then it's
Not your choice
And it's
None of your damn business!
by TheOtherMaven on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:17:14 AM PDT

[ Parent ]
* [new] You should add The Cornerstone Speech (7+ / 0-)

Wherein no less a person than the Vice President of the Confederacy, Alexander
Stephens, averred that the Confederacy was the first Government to be
established on the principle of White Supremacy.
On the way to doing so he stipulated, contrary to what he and other slave

owners had claimed previously, that the principle "all men are created equal" did,
in fact, apply to Black folks.
He touts the Confederacy as "correcting" the Founders' "error".
Nothing human is alien to me.
by WB Reeves on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 05:23:13 AM PDT
* [new] The US Constitution beat them to white supremacy (2+ /

0-)
[ Parent ]
* [new] Very powerful and a keeper (3+ / 0-)

Unbelievable this is not taught in school to every 11th grade high school civics
class. It sure puts to rest the lie.
"The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
by pajoly on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:23:50 AM PDT
* [new] There's a house I pass sometimes ... (3+ / 0-)
... which sports the confederate battle flag and a sign reading "Freedom."
Apparently the people in that house believe "freedom" means "the right to
enslave others."

"Let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love." ~
Rumi
by JBL55 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:35:33 AM PDT
* [new] Freedom for me and not for thee (2+ / 0-)

[ Parent ]
* [new] That line of thinking continues today, even on DK (1+ /

0-)
Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and
most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are
peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an
imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to
the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world,
and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization.
Now let's compare and contrast that to this diary, claiming that without migrant
farm workers, no one will harvest the crops.
http://www.dailykos.com/...
It goes like this. If youre not going to let illegal immigrants do the jobs
they are currently being hired to do, then farmers will have to raise
wages to replace them. Since farmers are taking a risk in hiring
immigrant workers, you can bet they were getting a significant deal on
wage costs relative to market wages. I put market wages here in
quotations, because its quite possible that the wages required to
get workers to do the job are so high that its no longer
profitable for farmers to plant the crops in the first place.
The South said that they needed the free labor of slavery, else they couldn't
compete economically. That no one else could do the work and without slaves in
the fields, there would be no agricultural commerce.
Fast forward to present times, and we have the claims that if GA farmers aren't

allowed to pay less than minimum wage (as close to slavery as they can legally
get), then no one else will do the work, crops will rot in the fields and there will
be no agricultural commerce.
Why isn't anyone standing up to farmers and telling them that if they don't pay
legal wages for their farm workers, then their crops rot and they go out of
business? Why are we supporting the use of insultingly low wages for migrant
workers, using essentially the language of traitorous Confederate slavers?
* [new] Look what happened next (2+ / 0-)
After the Civil War and Reconstruction, farm work did fall to below subsistence
level. In a way, the argument was validated by the system of share cropping.
Share cropping effectively created serfdom.
That system ended when? Has it ended, really?
My point is not to say that you're wrong, but rather to say that it has been in the
interests of capital to maintain poverty and below-poverty wages for farm work.
Before the burden was put on migrant workers, it was put on poor Black and
white workers in the share cropping scheme. The migrant worker was a godsend
in that the majority population could render them "invisible" by claiming that
they're all "illegal" and "don't speak English." They revived their hateful
arguments that, "They have an inferior culture" and all the rest of the old
artillery of Othering.
This is capitalism, and it is approved in the United States. To suggest otherwise

smacks of "Marxism," we're told. Even the most modest wage protections for
farm workers gets accused of "liberation theology," "anti-colonialism," and
everything disloyal (dis-loyal). In other words, the capitalist system since the
1760's has insisted on deprecating farm labor -- first in England, then in the
U.S., then in Central America and Africa.
"Vor the more that a mon can, the more wurthe he is." -- Robert of Gloucester,
1300
by The Geogre on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:57:43 AM PDT
[ Parent ]

* [new] Same ole, same old, still going on. (3+ / 0-)
As I read the declarations of secession, I am reminded of some of my southern

relatives. The sentiments expressed are not all that dissimilar from those voiced
now.
I well remember after Obama was elected getting a petition by email from that
source expressing the desires of the good citizens of Texas, Louisiana and
Mississippi to secede from the Union.
To this day, it still amazes me that few in the South see anything strange about
Perry running for President of these United States while threatening secession.
Treason, you think?
After the shooting jn South Carolina, it no longer seems sufficient to just dismiss
such miscreants as mere objects of ridicule. No, the young man's Birthday gift
gun raised him to a higher plateau. He has joined the ranks of those who think
that their Second Amendment Rights entitle them the deny others their Right to
Life.
Whose right should take precedence? Your right to survive or his right to carry
a gun? Gun ownership is metastasizing. The more people that have guns the
more we feel threatened and respond by buying a gun just for self-defense.
How many dead, dying and maimed is it going to take to learn the lesson?
by bewildered2 on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:39:11 AM PDT
* [new] No, no, no (3+ / 0-)

The southern states seceded over states' rights not slavery.
You know, the right of the states to allow their white citizens to own black people
as slaves.
Had nothing to do with slavery. They swear!
by Crimson Buddha on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:45:07 AM PDT
* [new] No. The Union didn't go to war to end it. (0+ / 0-)
There is a difference. Slavery was the drug that made the east coast. It was the
opium that made capital flow north, that made agriculture go, that created
massive speculative fortunes. It had made royals rich in England and sustained
the nobility. It had created industries of "sugar bakers" and others aligned with

the cause of the Restoration.
The southern states invoked "They're coming to get our slaves" as a sure selling
point. That's partly because abolition didn't poll especially well in the north.
Douglass regarded the war as largely irrelevant to slaves in its early years. The
south claimed that the north was coming to take the slaves in much the way that
the NRA claims that Obama is coming to take their guns: it's a monomaniacal
screech of a frenetic group of hateful people. They fought to get out of the union
and federalism, but their politics had been polarized and made captive to the
loudest, weirdest, wildest voices -- a phenomenon that we are becoming
reacquainted with.
Slavery was the crime of America. Individual gun ownership is a sin of it.
"Vor the more that a mon can, the more wurthe he is." -- Robert of Gloucester,
1300
by The Geogre on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:49:59 AM PDT
* [new] $$$$$$$$$$$$ (3+ / 0-)
Cotton money made the South rich. Cotton money came from Slavery. Slavery
was $$$$$$$ so there was no way they were going to let it go. And they knew it
was wrong, there are many primary sources pointing to that. But the money was
so good that they rather go to war than allow for the right thing to happen.
by Iberian on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:04:23 AM PDT
* [new] Excellent diary. (3+ / 0-)

Looking back on the stated intentions of the Confederate States cuts through a
lot of bullshit about the 'nobility' of he Confederate cause. The Civil War was
fought because vicious, greedy slave owners didn't want to give up a system
that made them rich.
It is way past time that we tossed aside all of the reminders of this evil cause.
This cause remains every bit as evil today, as it was 150 years ago.
Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. -

Deoliver47
by OIL GUY on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:24:53 AM PDT

* [new] And it was all because they lost an election (4+ / 0-)
They forget that succession started before Lincoln was inaugurated. States
rights but not human rights.
Even the succession vote in S.C. was probably fake, they ignored the counties
who voted against. Sound familiar?
* [new] The Stars and Bars goes beyond racism . . . (3+ / 0-)
It's the standard of a police state and a tyranny. It is nothing to celebrate.
by NotGeorgeWill on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:43:55 AM PDT
* [new] When I first saw a Confederate flag on some (3+ / 0-)
Fool's windshield in the South, I was shocked, just as I was shocked by seeing
statues of traitors like Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee. How has the South
gotten away with this since the Civil War, along with keeping the "negro" in his
place with lynchings and bombing churches and burning crosses? It's time we
white Americans show white supremacists they are not running or "taking back"
this country. You LOST the Civil War you fought to keep slavery and you're
losing the one you want to start again.
The people massacred in Mother Emanuel's church were all superior to every
white supremacist in this country. Superior in their capacity to help others,
support their community and add value to the human race.
Dylann Roof is a small, hate filled, ignorant, easily duped failure who didn't
deserve to shine his victims' shoes. May he soon burn in hell.
Best. President. Ever.
by Little Lulu on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:45:30 AM PDT
* [new] stop confusing folks with facts (1+ / 0-)
and making them face their racist past!

they don't like it!
/sn
* [new] Now make me a mint julip (1+ / 0-)

[ Parent ]
* [new] and after that (1+ / 0-)
make me a mint julep!
[ Parent ]
* [new] The Cornerstone Speech (5+ / 0-)
Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens at the Athenaeum in Savannah,

Georgia, on March 21, 1861.
The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions
relating to our peculiar institutionsAfrican slavery as it exists among
usthe proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was
the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution.
Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which
the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him,
is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great
truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The
prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen

at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the
enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it
was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil
they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men
of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the
institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however,
were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the
equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the
idea of a Government built upon itwhen the "storm came and the
wind blew, it fell."
Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite

ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the
great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that
slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and
moral condition.
Stephens lays out exactly whsat the Confederate apologists don't want to believe.
First, that the founding fathers allowed slavery into the Union but thought that it
was "unnatural" and could not last. Second, that the whole purpose of the
Confederacy was to uphold slavery on the basis of inequality of the races.
Up to thirty copies sold. Surely that'll get me on the Times list.
by Mark Sumner on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:33:16 AM PDT
* [new] I think I'll put a diary together, with some (1+ / 0-)
quotes from these freedom lovers.
It's a bleak history that bears repeating, often
[ Parent ]
* [new] Glad you posted these. (2+ / 0-)

I have these printed up at home. And I have posted them at various places
online over the years.

The morons who claim that there was any other reason than slavery for
secession hate to read these. Proof positive their folks were racist motherfuckers
and nothing else. They wrote that shit down. It is their words and they couldn't
be more clear.
So, any of you fuckheads out there who want make spurious claims of "states
right" or "heritage" you can suck the big one because your ancestors wrote their
intentions down. Just like the people who love freedom and equality wrote down
their intentions in the Declaration of Independence.
So take your forbearance and shove it up your stink hole, you racist bastards.
You have been checkmated.
There is an endless supply of white men, there has always been a limited number
of Human Beings
by ratprique on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 08:41:24 AM PDT
* [new] No Civil War scholar of any repute believes that. (2+ / 0-)
Most recognize that the preservation of the capital that slave holders had
invested in slaves was at the core of the "states rights" dispute between North
and the South.
That's a battle that could actually have been fought out in the Courts, pursuant
to a due process argument, where the Courts could have fixed some amount of
compensation for the deprivation of heretofore legal property rights by the
Government.
Pretty much everyone knew that the "institution" of slavery was already destined
to collapse. The rest of the world had already recognized that fact. But for the
deal made to sell the Constitution to the Southern states, it would not have
lasted as long as it did.
The real "color" that precipitated the Civil War was "green".
Voting for Bernie Sanders is like throwing yourself on the barbed wire, so that
those that follow have a clearer path to victory. Voting for Hillary Clinton is like
helping your firing squad load their weapons.
by SpamNunn on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:01:24 AM PDT

* [new] Is this the origin of the "nullification" argument (0+ / 0-)

that states are attempting to use against the ACA? In South Carolina's
declaration they refer to northern states that enacted laws that "nullified" the
part of the constitution that required them to return escaping slaves to their
owners in the south:
The Constitution of the United States, in its fourth Article, provides as

follows: "No person held to service or labor in one State, under
the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of
any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service
or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to
whom such service or labor may be due." [editor's note: this is the
Fugitive Slave Clause in the original Constitution whereby the North
promised to return escaped slaves to their "owners" in the South]
This stipulation was so material to the compact, that without it that
compact would not have been made. The greater number of the
contracting parties held slaves, and they had previously evinced their
estimate of the value of such a stipulation by making it a condition in
the Ordinance for the government of the territory ceded by Virginia,
which now composes the States north of the Ohio River.
The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry

into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these
laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the
non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a
disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General
Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution ....The
States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut,
Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan,
Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the
Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them.
Can any legal experts shed light on this?

Very interesting diary. Thank you, La Feminista.
"Let us not look back to the past with anger, nor towards the future with fear, but
look around with awareness." James Thurber
by annan on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:30:56 AM PDT

* [new] The south seceded for states rights (1+ / 0-)

The right of states to maintain slavery.
Oh sorry, was there some other change being pursued at the federal level that
the south couldn't live with? Can you tell me what it was?
crickets
A corporate duopoly indeed.
by gendjinn on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:35:42 AM PDT
* [new] let's be accurate (0+ / 0-)

the big plantation owners -and there weren't that many of them, managed to
convince the small farmer and the city dwellers to fight the war for them. The
plantations had to have a lot of field workers to survive, and they believed that
slavery, vs. paid workers, was the only way to do it. To add, the North was
interfering with the South's direct sales of cotton to England. So, two birds with
one stone, let's scare the common man and get them to support secession and
fight in a war for us..
sound familiar?
"Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own
government" T. Jefferson
by azureblue on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 10:15:27 AM PDT
* [new] Excellent. Eom (0+ / 0-)
"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or
he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both
God and Money." -- JC, Matthew 6:24
by Chi on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 10:16:36 AM PDT
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So The Confederacy Didnt Go To War Over Slavery

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So The Confederacy Didn't Go To War

NY Times: Right-Wing Terrorists kill

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394560/-So-The-Confederacy-Didn-t-Go-To-War-Over-Slavery?detail=email[6/19/2015 1:51:54 PM]

This is a call out diary, but not the kind

Thanks to Charleston shootings Wall

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394560/-So-The-Confederacy-Didn-t-Go-To-War-Over-Slavery?detail=email[6/19/2015 1:51:54 PM]

War on Women (5553)

South Carolina Declaration of Secession

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394560/-So-The-Confederacy-Didn-t-Go-To-War-Over-Slavery?detail=email[6/19/2015 1:51:54 PM]

Confederate flag from capitoland it's

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394560/-So-The-Confederacy-Didn-t-Go-To-War-Over-Slavery?detail=email[6/19/2015 1:51:54 PM]

The symbol of this racism in all its various forms:

The Confederate Flags

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394560/-So-The-Confederacy-Didn-t-Go-To-War-Over-Slavery?detail=email[6/19/2015 1:51:54 PM]

ORIGINALLY POSTED TO LAFEMINISTA ON FRI JUN 19, 2015 AT 01:23 AM PDT.

A Morning Muse Civil War Confederacy Racism Recommended Slavery

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147 COMMENTS | PERMALINK

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394560/-So-The-Confederacy-Didn-t-Go-To-War-Over-Slavery?detail=email[6/19/2015 1:51:54 PM]

by LaFeminista on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 01:22:32 AM PDT

* [new] That rag is not only rationalizing violence... (70+ / 0-)

by markthshark on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 01:32:51 AM PDT

* [new] It always has done so from day one (43+ / 0-)

by LaFeminista on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 01:33:57 AM PDT

* [new] Confederate Flag: Emblem of Racism and Treason (63+ /

It's in the same category as the swastika. It symbolizes the brutalization,

Hundreds of thousands died overturning the cause it represented.

by Tackle on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 04:38:10 AM PDT

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394560/-So-The-Confederacy-Didn-t-Go-To-War-Over-Slavery?detail=email[6/19/2015 1:51:54 PM]

* [new] Folks ignore the racism part (24+ / 0-)

and forget the treason part.

Esse quam videri (To be, rather than to seem)

by Ptown boy in NC on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:17:31 AM PDT

* [new] I am forever willing to remind them. (18+ / 0-)

And do so quite frequently.

An imagined spark of light at the end of the tunnel just might be a

by Joieau on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:44:04 AM PDT

* [new] It's the only insurrection that gets commemorated

There are at least 10 US Army bases named after Confederate

It's understandable why, in an effort to reunite the country, neither

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394560/-So-The-Confederacy-Didn-t-Go-To-War-Over-Slavery?detail=email[6/19/2015 1:51:54 PM]

by RFK Lives on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:16:25 AM PDT

* [new] Beautiful, eloquent, succint... (0+ / 0-)

And throughout their writings, it was always, "God is on our side."

by Silverheels on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:44:18 AM PDT

* [new] The Germans didn't forget their history (19+ / 0-)

the fact that you're right is nothing more than interesting

by Egg on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:27:07 AM PDT

* [new] Slavery and the preservation of slavery is the (0+ /

only thing that was the cornerstone of the southern heritage.

by Silverheels on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 09:46:46 AM PDT

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394560/-So-The-Confederacy-Didn-t-Go-To-War-Over-Slavery?detail=email[6/19/2015 1:51:54 PM]

* [new] Not just racism and treason. (5+ / 0-)

Anyone arguing that there's no difference between the parties is a fucking

by RichM on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 06:43:42 AM PDT

* [new] And another oft ignored legacy (5+ / 0-)

by Thumb on Fri Jun 19, 2015 at 07:00:10 AM PDT

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/19/1394560/-So-The-Confederacy-Didn-t-Go-To-War-Over-Slavery?detail=email[6/19/2015 1:51:54 PM]

See? That's a perfectly rational and sensible argument.