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Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 01:47 AM #451183

KJC OP I've never liked piano benches (even though I have a nice artist's bench)
Full Member and have always wondered why no one has invented a reasonable chair
with adjustable back support for pianists.

K Anyway, I'm only 34 and am in pretty good shape. I ride my bike 25 mins.
each way to work and back every day and do stretching and weight training
Joined: Feb 2006 exercises almost every day as well. My wife and I eat lots of veggies, and I
Posts: 74 take my vitamins, etc. But, I find myself slouching, playing hunched over
Vancouver, BC all of the time unless I make a conscious effort to sit up straight. Is better
posture simply a matter of effort and habit, or is there something else I
should be doing????

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Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 01:58 AM #451184

pianojerome Some people will tell you to sit up straight without any arch in your back,
9000 Post Club Member and others will tell you to slouch.

Whatever works for you.

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,868
Sviatoslav Richter sat straight as a board. Glenn Gould hunched over so
much that his nose almost touched the keyboard. Both were excellent
pianists.

There is no one correct way to sit at the piano.

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 02:09 AM #451185

KJC OP In terms of music-making, I suppose you may be right, but in terms of

Full Member one's overall health I'm not convinced that sitting for hours on end every
week slouched over is good. Some physical therapists / personal trainers I
know place a great deal of emphasis on posture and its profound effect on
K our health.

Joined: Feb 2006

Posts:
Re: 74Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 04:11 AM #451186
Vancouver, BC
Ted2 I have tried playing in chairs with supporting backs off and on. It doesn't
500 Post Club Member work for me but it's hard to describe why. I think it's because if my back is
resting against a support it takes the flexibility of posture away, the
continual bending and adapting, however slight, which seems to be
T necessary for me to play fluently. I tend toward the straight back brigade
rather than the slouchers, but it has nothing to do with rigidity. Side to side
Joined: May 2002 movements in particular, even small ones, appear to be necessary to me,
Posts: 790 and I cannot easily perform them if I am sinking back against a support,
Auckland, New Zealand however comfortable it might be.

The only postural fault I have is a tendency to use the left leg as a sort of
partial pivot of body weight, the other leg usually being occupied at the
pedal. This bad habit sometimes results in soreness after a long session,
but I am gradually weaning myself out of it.

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Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 05:37 AM #451187

CC2 and Chopin KJC,

lover I am a Classical Pianist AND a Physical Therapist who specializes in Spinal
1000 Post Club Member and Extremity Orthopedics. You are completely correct in your assertion
that posture has profound effects, both pro and con, on one's health. When
one slouches, they do so in order to avoid having to fire and contract the
C musculature of the torso that holds the body upright against the force of
gravity. It is much easier to let the weight of the trunk and upper limbs
Joined: Jan 2006 hang on the inert support of the ligaments that tie the bony joints together.
Posts: 1,983 These excessive stresses on the connective tissues ultimately create
deformities in their length and shape as well as pain as the sensory nerves
that feed them are caused to fire constantly. What results is the
malalignment of the joints, the shortening on muscles on one side of a
joint, and the excessive stretching and weakening of the muscles on the
opposite side. I would estimate that 98% of all the back and neck pain I
treat is driven by poor posture and body mechanics, which ultimately
progresses to osteoarthritic changes in the joints and muscles being
overworked in an improper range of motion. The answer to your question is
that one must make a conscious effort, at least initially, to maintain an
inward, "lordotic" curve in their lumbar spine during all activities. Bending
forward from the hips, rather than from the back, helps one to achieve this.
Eventually, moving and sitting in this "Functional Neutral Posture" will
become second nature. That is what you should strive for. Also take
 frequent breaks from the keyboard, stand up and bend backward from the
waist, with your hands on your buttocks 10 to 15 times. Exhale as you go
back and try to increase the range of motion with each subsequent
repitition. Look for a CERTIFIED McKenzie Spinal Therapist in your area.
They can help you greatly. Google McKenzie Institute. Hope this helps.
Dan

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 10:18 AM #451188

Agilita Pianojerome: Didn't Glenn Gould sit in a special chair? Seems I remember
Full Member reading that he would rock back and forth.

Joined: Jan 2006

Posts: 476
Missouri

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 10:29 AM #451189

Monica K. KJC,

I've seen posts from a couple of people who have bought drummers' chairs
(thrones?) for the piano and say they work well.

As for posture, a couple of months ago I went through a course of physical

therapy to treat chronic headaches I was having. I was told that my
posture was very bad, and that in fact my shoulders were already slightly
Joined: Aug 2005
and irreversibly rounded because I hunched over too much. I was given a
Posts: 18,241
bunch of exercises to work on that would strengthen my back and shoulder
Lexington, Kentucky
muscles and correct the imbalance and hopefully prevent any worsening of
my shoulders. I also changed my seating position on the piano bench,
namely to locate the bench further back, and place my rear end toward the
front 1/3 of the bench, and curve my spine inward the way CC2 described.
This change eliminated a shoulder pain I had developed while playing. My
headaches improved as well, although I have not been as diligent about the
strengthening exercises as I should be.

Now, if you are not experiencing any pain or discomfort while playing, and
you're not developing rounded shoulders, perhaps there is no need for you
to make any changes. I will say though that I wish I had paid more
attention to my posture before it was too late.

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 10:41 AM #451190

CC2 and Chopin Monica,

lover Whoever told you that it was "too late" to beneficially alter your "Forward
1000 Post Club Member Head/Rounded Shoulder" posture, as we call it in "PT speak", was
mistaken. While it is, admittedly, a difficult and prolonged process to do so,
a consistent program of stretching short/tight tissues while strengthening
 weak/stretched muscles, and regaining the correct proprioceptive
C awareness of where your joints are in space in relation to other body parts,
will ultimately restore proper curvature to the spinal components. If it was
truly "too late" for you, you would not have been able to realize your stated
Joined: Jan 2006
improvements in shoulder and headache pain.pain You do, however, need to be
Posts: 1,983
consistent and persistent in your postural exercise program.
All the best,
Dan

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 12:59 PM #451191

signa maybe take a few ballet (not necessarily formal) or jazz entry level dance
8000 Post Club Member lessons, where they would focus on posture and basic movements or
positions, to learn what exactly the correct posture is in dancing or at
piano. it's all related, and it would be benefitial tremendously if you would
have had such training. i pretty much taught myself playing piano from the
Joined: Jun 2004 beginning, and haven't had any posture related problems or injuries of any
Posts: 8,483
kind on piano. i contribut such as the result of some dance classes i had
before.
Ohio, USA

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 01:10 PM #451192

Monica K. Quote

Originally posted by CC2 and Chopin lover:

Monica,
Whoever told you that it was "too late" to beneficially alter your
"Forward Head/Rounded Shoulder" posture, as we call it in "PT
speak", was mistaken...You do, however, need to be consistent
and persistent in your postural exercise program.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 18,241 Thanks for the info, CC2. That's very encouraging to hear. Your last
Lexington, Kentucky
statement, of course, is the clincher. I know there is much I SHOULD be
doing to improve and maintain my health (those exercises, jogging more,
etc.) that I am not.

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 01:29 PM #451193

KJC OP Thanks for all the info CC2andChopin Lover, Monica, etc.
Full Member
I am not feeling any pain or discomfort but still would like to improve my
posture so as to avoid any long-term difficulties. I also feel that it is
K aestheticlly displeasing to slouch, both for myself and anyone who may be
watching me play. I might try to find a McKenzie specialist as you suggest.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 74 I have a couple more questions if you would be so kind.
Vancouver, BC
First, do you consider bicycling a detrimental activity in terms of the spine?
As I mentioned, I spend about 50 mins per day, during the week at least,
bicycling to work and back. Since I live in such a beautiful area (west
Vancouver near the Univeristy of British Columbia), this is very enjoyable.
It is also the cheapest commuting option and takes care of my aerobic
exercise for the day.
 Second, I do a variety of stretches and one or two weight training exercises
every day. I've started to do one or two yoga stretches simply because they
feel good, especially for my back. I don't have the time or interest to get
into yoga in a big way, but do you have any opinions about it or Tai Chi, or
any other type of stretching / meditation regimen??

Thanks again,
Kevin

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 02:05 PM #451194

Contrapunctus You should sit up very straight becasue it helps you to put weight into the
piano. Slouching does not allow you to lean into the piano.
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2005

Posts: 808
Whittier, California

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 02:16 PM #451195

Monica K. The main stengthening exercise I was told to do is called a W-T-V. You lie
on your tummy, and tuck a rolled towel under your forehead you don't
squash your nose and you can breathe. Then place your arms to your sides
so that they make the shape of a "W" (that is, your hands will be at about
the level of your shoulders, and your elbows at the level of your waist). Lift
them behind you in the air as high as you can and hold for 5 seconds.
Repeat 10 times. Then extend your arms straight out from your shoulders
in the shape of a T. Do the same thing (10 reps of holding for 5 seconds.)
Joined: Aug 2005
Then put them over your head in the shape of a V, another 10 reps. This
Posts: 18,241
last one is the KILLER for me and I can never get them more than a couple
Lexington, Kentucky
of inches up in the air.

These will strengthen the muscles in your upper back and help you keep
your back straight rather than hunched over.

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 02:16 PM #451196

Shosti Quote
Full Member
Some people will tell you to sit up straight without any arch in your back,
and others will tell you to slouch.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 433 Whatever works for you.
Boston
Sviatoslav Richter sat straight as a board. Glenn Gould hunched over so
much that his nose almost touched the keyboard. Both were excellent
pianists.

There is no one correct way to sit at the piano.

 For once I disagree with PJ. Yes, Richter and Gould were both unbelievably
good pianists. But that doesn't change the fact that the way Gould sat was
probably horrible for his back. Many great pianists have struggled with
tension and other playing-related problems; Rachmaninoff, for one.

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 02:24 PM #451197

Gill the Piano I was told in a masterclass that the pianist shouldn't use the back half of
the piano stool at all, just the front half. Also, if you sit too high, you have
Full Member to slouch. One teacher wound the piano stool down and pulled it away from
the piano so that I felt my arms were waving in the air over my head like
an ape!! (Exaggerate? Moi?) But when I got used to it, I realised that I had
Joined: Jan 2006
more control, my forearm was level, rather than sloping down to the
Posts: 298
keyboard, and the niggly backache at bra-strap level from which I'd
Marlow, suffered intermittently had disappeared. I can't sit on a high piano stool
Buckinghamshire, without feeling uncomfortable now!
Engla...

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 03:02 PM #451198

Anima Speaking of bench height, isn't it bad for you to sit too low?
Full Member

I've been a low sitter for the past year or so, and have recently gotten
Joined: Dec 2003
extreme amounts of pain in my wrists.
Posts: 206
Sitting higher usually makes my shoulders and upper back ache faster, but
Belgium sitting lower makes me "use" my wrists more to use my fingers. I like feel
the pulling from my wrist towards my fingers into the keys. I like playing
like this, because it gives me a firm touch and blabla, but I haven't been
able to play for about 2 weeks because of it...

Playing piano is just unhealthy..

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 03:12 PM #451199

zorrodepiano I have a very weak back, bad posture not only affects my playing...
I find if my feet are in front of me, flat on the floor and together, the rest of
Full Member my posture seems to follow, and I can play for a good set's worth of rep.

Z
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 24
Encinitas Ca

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 03:45 PM #451200

kcoul058 I slouch because I have problems with my back muscles... slowly physio is
500 Post Club Member correcting it, but it'll be awhile yet. I really should tell my prof about this,
he keeps telling me to keep my back straight, which I can't for longer than
5-10 mins.
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 985
 Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 04:12 PM #451201

CC2 and Chopin Quote

lover
1000 Post Club Member
First, do you consider bicycling a detrimental activity in terms of
the spine? As I mentioned, I spend about 50 mins per day, during
the week at least, bicycling to work and back. Since I live in such
C a beautiful area (west Vancouver near the Univeristy of British
Columbia), this is very enjoyable. It is also the cheapest
Joined: Jan 2006 commuting option and takes care of my aerobic exercise for the
Posts: 1,983
day.

OK, KJC, here goes: Yes, bicycling in the position that MOST people assume
when riding IS detrimental to the spine. Also, unless you are pedaling
CONSTANTLY, against a good bit of resistance, and not coasting or shifting
into higher gears, you are not getting the aerobic benefit you might think
you are. This will only be attained if you take the formula 220-your age and
multiply that by 65 and 80%. This is the general range that your heartrate
has to fall into AND REMAIN for at least 20 to 30 minutes three to five
times per week in order to get significant aerobic and cardiac benefits from
an activity. A less conditioned person would start at 60 to 65% of their
"maximum heart rate", (220-your age). A better conditioned person would
work at a heart rate level closer to 80 or 85% of max. As far as yoga and
Tai Chi, many yoga positions are conducive to spinal health and posture,
while others are detrimental. What I have against it is that no one is
completing an Orthopedic assessment of the participant in advance of their
participation to determine what they should and shouldn't be doing based
on their Orthopedic status. Tai Chi is much safer, and contributes to good
posture, improved balance annd muscular control. I think that covers all
your questions. If not, I will be happy to answer additionally.
Dan

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 04:22 PM #451202

tenuki does anyone have any web links to improving posture? CC2?
500 Post Club Member

T
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 672
Seattle, Wa

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 06:40 PM #451203

CC2 and Chopin Most web links will refer you to a practitioner for evaluation prior to
lover recommending a specific treatment or therapeuitic exercise protocol, since
1000 Post Club Member there is no way of knowing what your personal physical situation entails
and requires. There is no "one size fits all" approach, unfortunately. The
best bet is to google the McKenzie Institute and search for a Certified
C Specialist in Mechanical Diagnosis and Therapy of the Spine. They will give
you a thorough mechanical assessment of your posture, and determine
your most likely source of pain,
pain decreased Range of Motion and
Joined: Jan 2006 dysfunction. From there, they will give you a set of specialized exercises to
Posts: 1,983 address those sources of pain or dysfunction. The whole idea is to teach the
patient to treat themself, and to be proactive thereafter. Monica, the "T",
"Y" and "W" exercises you describe are specifically designed to strengthen
the muscles originating in or attaching to the scapulae, or shoulder blades.
The "Y" is most difficult because it targets the Lower Trapezius muscles,
which are typically weak in just about everyone.
Dan

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 07:20 PM #451204

Laurens This forum is really interesting. Apart from piano playing I slouch at the
Full Member computer, tv, bicycle (hey I live in holland), and the piano. If anyone has
tips and websites to read I would really appreciate. I would like to get a
better posture, not just for my piano playing.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 193
CC2, do you think the Monica's exercises would help me too ?
The Netherland

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 07:26 PM #451205

mmmmaestro007 Quote

Full Member
Originally posted by CC2 and Chopin lover:
Most web links will refer you to a practitioner for evaluation
prior to recommending a specific treatment or therapeuitic
M exercise protocol, since there is no way of knowing what
your personal physical situation entails and requires. There
Joined: Feb 2006 is no "one size fits all" approach, unfortunately. The best bet
Posts: 420
is to google the McKenzie Institute and search for a Certified
Specialist in Mechanical Diagnosis and Therapy of the Spine.
australia
They will give you a thorough mechanical assessment of
your posture, and determine your most likely source of pain
pain,
decreased Range of Motion and dysfunction. From there,
they will give you a set of specialized exercises to address
those sources of pain or dysfunction. The whole idea is to
teach the patient to treat themself, and to be proactive
thereafter. Monica, the "T", "Y" and "W" exercises you
describe are specifically designed to strengthen the muscles
originating in or attaching to the scapulae, or shoulder
i haven't read all these posts but i have a good exercise to strenghthen
(what feels like at least!) almost every muscle in your body
i think it may a Pilates exercise

laying on your side,raise your torso resting on your lower arm from the
elbow(perpendicular to your torso)
now raise the lower half of your body so your only contact with the floor
is your foot and your lower arm(both perpendicular to your torso)

now comes the good bit- raise the arm(fully extended) closest to the
ceiling as high as you can and hold

now raise the leg(fully extended) closest to the ceiling as high as you can
 hold this position for 30 seconds and then repeat on the other side

it this is not clear, picture it as almost fully extended star jump rotated 90
degrees

you may need to build up to the final position in steps

it works for me anyway!

Re: Bad posture / slouching at the bench 04/12/06 07:49 PM #451206

CC2 and Chopin mmmmmmmaestro,

lover what you are describing is a trunk stabilization exercise. While I laud your
1000 Post Club Member apparent trunk musculature's fortitude, I do agree that it would be a little
to advanced for 90% per cent of the folks just starting out.
Laurens,
C The exercises that Monica is doing have potential benefit for everyone,
since they target muscles that are typically weak in 99.9% of the
Joined: Jan 2006 population, yet are critical to proper upper quarter postural alignment. But
Posts: 1,983 they are not all that are needed. If you allow your lumbar spine to lose its
inward curve, properly called lordosis,, no amount of upper body exercise
will keep your shoulders from rolling forward and your head from jutting
out into what is called protraction. Try this experiment: sit at the edge of a
bed, or your piano bench and let your lower back slouch and round so that
you are, in essence, creating a "C" shaped curve with it. Now, note how
your shoulders have hunched and rounded forward and your head and jaw
is jutting out. Now, lift your chest up, curve your lumbar spine in and place
your torso perpendicular to the surface you are sitting on. Notice how your
upper body, shoulders and neck follow and automatically line up
properly!!!! The key is what is going on in your lumbar spine that drives
everything else!!!! You should make it a practice to use a lumbar roll, or
rolled up towel, at your beltline, behind your back whenever you sit on a
seat that has a back to it. Move your butt all the way back in the seat and
don't let it slide forward. Allow the roll or towel to cue you into sitting with
your lordosis maintained. When lifting, bending or stooping, ALWAYS LOCK
your back into lordosis first, then bend forward from you HIPS, NOT your
Back!!!! These are tips I give all my patients that help them to cure and
avoid their back pain for life. Strengthening the postural muscles of the
torso, as well as increasing their endurance, will help keep you upright and
in proper form when you don't have a roll to help you, such as when
playing the piano.
Dan

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