Gestalt Review, 13(2):119-122, 2009 119

interview on Creativity
with Joseph C. Zinicer, Ph.D.

JOSEPH MELNICK, PH.D.

Background

When I was a graduate student, one of my supervisors was receiving his Ge-
stalt education at the Gestalt Institute of Cleveland. He started telling me about
a man named Zinker. He shared stories of Joseph's creative work with dreams
and experiments. He talked about how his lectures and demonstrations left
him sometimes laughing uncontrollably, and at other times filled with tears.
What was also true was that his experiences were always filled with profound
learnings. Upon graduation I followed my supervisor's path to Cleveland and
got to know Joseph, first as a teacher and supervisor, and later as a colleague
and a friend.
Joseph is many things. He is a marvelous teacher, able to translate complex
concepts into understandable bites. He is a fabuous performer, captivating his
audiences with his playfulness and passion. He is an important writer. Two of
his books. The Creative Process in Gestalt Therapy (1977) and In Search of Good
Form: Gestalt Therapy with Couples and Families (1998) are classics in the field.
Above all, he is the embodiment of creativity not just in his work but also in
how he lives his life.
Sadly, he has spent most of the past two years recovering from surgery. He
has faced this challenge with his usual mixture of courage, humor, and cre-
ativity. It seems appropriate that this issue of Gestalt Review begins with an
interview with Joseph, followed by a short piece that he crafted over thirty
years ago.
^^^^•1 —~
Joseph Melnick, Ph.D., founding editor of Gestalt Review, has been
practicing, teaching, and writing about Gestalt therapy for some thirty-five
years. He has recently co-edited a book (with Edwin C. Nevis), tVlending
the World: Social Healing Interventions by Gestalt Practitioners Worldwide
(GISC Press 2009).

©2009 Gestalt IntI Study Center

120 INTERVIEW ON CREATIVITY

Joe: Would you define creativity for our readers?

Joseph: The word has very loose meaning. In popular culture almost any-
thing, any event or individual, can be called "creative": a "creative dish," a "cre-
ative movie," a "creative guy." Often "creative" is used as a flattering compli-
ment. Often people call something creative when they do not understand what
happened: something abstract or mysterious but not known first hand.
I think of creativity as a process in which ordinary events do not necessarily
follow a logical progression, are not necessarily "logical." Many people con-
fuse "creative" with "beautiful" or "symmetrical" or having "style" or "being
clever."
Creativity is heavily tied to culture and to conventionality. For example, we
think of light as traveling a straight line, yet it has been demonstrated that
it travels around things; that light can be curvilinear. Sometimes I think that
creative refers to how we think rather than wtiat we think and feel.
What is creative is not necessarily fashionable or "in good taste." Einstein's
theory of relativity may or may not make sense, yet it was and is a radical de-
parture from what appears to be sensible or "of good form."
Joe: Creativity involves a commitment to risk and uncertainty. Would you
comment on this?
Joseph: In any dialogue with another person we enter the sphere of creativ-
ity when we are no longer in full confluence with them. When we disagree
or enter into conflict, there is promise of creativity. That means that creativity
threatens to turn the world into asymmetry.
The creative process is often paradoxical to the status quo of daily life. For
example, it can be melodic and agreeable but not necessarily powerful or vi-
sionary. Tchaikovsky wrote melodic symphonies, but they had the weakness of
pleasant affirmation. Mahler's music is atonal and sometimes unpleasant and
calls forth "crooked" and difficult sensations in human spirits. Both Tchaikovsky
and Mahler can be said to have been great composers, but they stimulate very
different sentiments in human beings. So, both were great creators using vastly
different pallets of musical form.
Courage comes into play here, for in order to understand these two men,
you risk getting lost and not understanding life in its daily, ordinary forms. It
takes courage to jump into an area of color or nature, or in this case musical
form, that is not fully known to you in the beginning. But to lead a creative
life you must commit yourself to exploring your life without any guarantee of
success, or of anyone else's approval.
More often than not, the creative process results in other people's confusion
or disapproval. In other words, creativity does not have to be ego-syntonic. It
can anger and alienate those who witness it. The creative process serves as a
teacher of novel ways of viewing the world, hearing its sounds, experiencing its
intellectual puzzlements. Let me give you an example.
Picasso's father, who was an art teacher, did not understand his son's paint-
JOSEPH MELNICK 121

ing. Rather than withdrawing or becoming critical, he basically became Pablo's

student. He was willing to let go of his role as a father and a teacher so that he
might learn and create
Joe: I have known you for many years, and I have watched you write, paint,
and work as a therapist. I have always been impressed by your ability to avoid
redundancy and continually bring freshness to your work. How do you main-
tain your creative edge?
Joseph: One thing I do is to go into parts of life that are alien, unpleasant,
paradoxical. Another way is to force myself to find a kind of beauty in what
is conventionally disgusting and unpleasant. In other words, I go into parts of
myself that are difficult to accept morally or ethically.
When our basic needs are satisfied daily, we begin to hunger for novelty, hu-
mor, even things that sound bizarre and strange. The brain wants to be enter-
tained - with novelty. This is especially so in states of solitude and/or silence.
Joe: What advise do you have for our readers in terms of developing their
own creativity?
Joseph: Stay away from rigid theories of ethics and inflexible religious
dogma. Explore your capacity for playfulness, experimentation, and improvisa-
tion. Instead of asking yourself what is, try to ask what could be. Be optimis-
tic. Use the "what if test." Make up hypothetic situations using the "what if"
model: what if you were suddenly a woman, not a man - what would you look
like? How would you move your body when walking? What would your voice
sound like? Try "what if" with another species: a cat, a hippopotamus, a small
bird Creativity is a way of doing. It involves believing in yourself and in the
creative process.
Joe: As I travel around the Gestalt world I am always touched by how many
people know you and consider you their friend. Many are aware of your recent
surgery and your courageous recovery. One of the first questions they ask me is
"how is Joseph doing?" Would you like to answer this question?
Joseph: That is a deep and serious question, which requires an equally
serious answer. I am aware of being old and the illness is like a voice in my
head speaking to me. It tells me, "Joseph, you are entering another part of
your life Look at yourself carefully and respectfully. You are changing all
the time, from moment to moment Pay attention to life inside of you. Your
inner melodies are heavier, you are getting slower. Wait for the moment when
life tells you to slow down or to accelerate. Stay respectful of these feelings -
your inner weight - of your changing inner colors; attend to the forces around
you and within."
The illness tells me, "Look, Joseph, your life is urgent - you can't control
everything - you can be there with as much of yourself as possible at any mo-
ment" - as if God were talking to me, giving me signs, stories, colors, moods;
as if he were saying: "Don't waste yourself. Stay with your sense of wonder and
recovery." And that voice continues:
122 INTERVIEW ON CREATIVITY

There are people and events going on all the time. Let yourself
experience the latter parts of this trip, this journey. . . take in as
much as possible and appreciate the "program." It is your life,
your weight, your pains and pleasures. . . . These so called symp-
toms and sensations are gifts of living a human existence - all are
parts of your awareness. Appreciate it with all of what you have
in life: your friendships, your creations, your loving connections to
others; appreciate the good and the bad, your achievements and
regrets. Even pain is a kind of gift (of life and of dying - of leaving
life). All of this spells the urgency and excitement of the life cycle.
Life only knows itself. Let it flow within f r e e l y . . . .

Joe: Thank you for your responses, and especially for your response to my
last question. If I remember correctly, it is my turn to buy dinner. See you in the
spring, and please remember to give my love to Sandra.

Joseph Melnick, Ph.D.

gestaltrev@aol.com
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