Interview - Joseph & Rob

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Rob: Joseph, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate your willingness
to share your story and your journey, and how you're progressing so far. Just for a little
background, Joseph and I started to communicate in February of 2015 and he lives in Los
Angeles.


Joseph: Yeah it's a pleasure Rob, thanks for giving me the opportunity to share to the
world and you my real life experience about my hair loss journey. It's an honor and I'm
willing to help out in every way possible.


Rob: Thank you. Thanks I really appreciate it. So could you just start us off... Tell me
when you first started to notice your hair loss.


Joseph: Yeah it happened at age 24. So I knew that I was genetically predisposed to hair
loss because it ran in my genes obviously. My grandfather from both my mother and
father's side pretty much went bald at a very young age, so I knew it was just a matter of
time before I was gonna lose all my hair. Unfortunately it happened at a very young age,
24, and I remember the time when I was eating dinner and my brother was hovering over
my shoulder and he noticed a bald spot in my vertex in the back and in the middle
section. So, he was really curious to know what was going on so he decided to part my
hair and he noticed that this bald spot was pretty much bigger, and it was just kind of
spread all over my scalp. Very similar to your situation.



Joseph: So I had a diffused pattern hair loss so to speak. And he chuckled at the
moment and he was really shocked and amazed that this was happening to me at such a
young age. And it was very devastating. It really got underneath my skin, especially when
somebody points out that condition right in front of your face, it's very hurtful. So, I went
into the mirror because I didn't think my bald spot was that big, and it just turned out that
reality hit me in the face. And so I just had to accept it and try to find a way to manage it
and try to reverse it through hopefully natural means.



Rob: That's a really similar story to what I experienced. I had always been aware that I
had pretty thin hair, it was just the way that my hair was since I was really little. And I think
I was 16 when this popular girl in high school was sitting behind me and she pointed to
the back of my head and she goes, "You have a bald spot." And I laughed it off but it was
kind of devastating. You don't want to be told that you're losing your hair or that other
people can at least notice it. So I know the feeling; it's not a good one but I'm glad that
you started to take steps to resolving it because that eventually connected us. So what
were some of the first things that you started to do when you realized you were losing
your hair? 



Joseph: Well, I did what any other normal person would do, so I utilized the internet to
the best of my advantage and I went on so many different forums and blogs and websites
to see if there was some sort of natural remedy, or remedies, that would cure my
situation. Obviously the big three popped up. So you got Propecia, you got Minoxidil, and
you got Rogaine. And obviously I didn't want to take that route because I know there are
side effects to it and some users actually experience irreversible side effects, let alone the
cost to those treatments. So I didn't have the money, I didn't have the time and I didn't
wanna put my body under that stress. So, one of the treatments that I came across from
one of the forums, immortal hair, was emu oil. And I tried that for about a month and it
really didn't make that much of a difference to my hair. I can't really give a full and
accurate experience on that because I only used it for a month, so I'm sure if I used it for
about six, or eight, or 12 months maybe I would have experienced much larger gains. So I
decided to just abandon that treatment and move on to something else.



Joseph: So the next I guess treatment that I looked into was just vitamins and
supplementation. So I looked into Biotin. Biotin definitely increased the thickness of my
hair, but it didn't really resolve the culprit which is restoring my dormant hair follicles and
turning them into terminal hair follicles. So that really didn't do much on that end of the
scale. I then jumped into eclipta alba, which is an Indian herb, because I've heard that it
grows hair on mice so I wanted to give that a shot for a couple of months. Didn't really do
that much internally. I guess I didn't do it correctly 'cause I was suppose to apply the
treatment topically. And then from there I just ventured out and tried all different types of
Indian oils, topicals: Alma oil, henna, neem, you name it. I did that for about a period of
one year. Yeah, it improved the luster and color of my hair but again it didn't resolve the
culprit which is restoring those dormant hair follicles.



Joseph: So I was a little bit upset after two years of trial and error. As a last resort I did
the low level laser therapy. So I bought a theradome helmet for about $600. It was quite
pricey and it was backed up by the FDA. They cleared it and they approved it for both
men and women so I thought it was safe and effective. So I gave it a shot for about one
year and 10 months and yes it did improve the luster of my hair but again it didn't really
resolve the culprit. And I still had bald spots on my temples, on my vertex, and on the mid
top region of my scalp. So I was a little bit upset of having to go through that painstaking
experience knowing that I wasn't able to fully regrow my hair.



Rob: That's a really similar experience that so many people have. Topicals are such a
shot in the dark when it comes to hair recovery. What works for one person doesn't
necessarily work for 99 other people. We see it so often in case studies. There's even a
paper about lard as a topical that was passed around the very forums that you had
mentioned, Immortal Hair. And there was this paper that showed significant hair recovery
from somebody who'd been applying lard or fat oils like a butter of some sort for over a
10 month period every single night before he went to sleep. And when this paper was
released, you see this huge surge in excitement for people who wanna try this lard topical
and then slowly over a course of months the excitement fizzles. Now whether that's
because people didn't apply it as religiously as the person in this case study did, or
whether it's because they were applying and seeing results or no results we don't know.
But it just goes to show you that what works for one person oftentimes doesn't always
work for everybody else especially when it comes to topicals. So moving forward, it
sounds like you've been experimenting for about two years now with trial and error, what
happens next? 



Joseph: Yeah, I mean luckily I think it was divine intervention, but I was doing a lot of
Googling searching and yeah your website popped up. And it was I think the first
websites that popped up, so I wanted to see what you had to reveal and I clicked on your
website and I read through your theories and I thought to myself that this was just another
scam because you talked a lot about massaging and I did do some massage techniques
in the past, but I didn't do it as vigorous or as intense or over a long period of time as you
emphasized. So, when I read about that immediately the first thing that came into my
mind is like, "This guy is not as trustworthy because he's recommending massages for 40
minutes a day and I'm not going to put so much time and effort in massaging my scalp if I
already did that in the past." But the one eye opener for me, what really struck an accord
with me was your theory on calcification and scalp elasticity. And the reason why that
spoke to me was because when I pinched the sides of my scalp, I noticed that they were
a lot looser and thinner than the top mid portion or the vertex and I thought to myself,
"You know what maybe this guy is legit and Rob is actually onto something."



Joseph: So that's when I decided to delve deeper into your theories by going on
Immortal Hair Forum and actually searching these massages to see if other users are
pretty much experiencing the same amount of success that you've experienced over a 12
month period. And the results were actually pretty astounding; a lot of users... There was
a user that goes by the name of Drex1999, he experienced some significant results using
your techniques over a six month period, and so when I saw his before and after pictures
I was astounded. And that's when I decided to actually purchase your e-book because he
pretty much validated your theories; he was the second person that confirmed that what
you were saying was true and so I wanted just to give it a shot, it was 30 bucks, worst
case scenario if it didn't work out I lost 30 bucks. At the end of the day it's not a big deal,
so I decided to look into it further and purchase your e-book to see what else you have to
reveal about the hair loss, about hair loss theory.



Rob: The theories about calcification have been around since I think the early 1900s
when it comes to the connection between calcification of the blood vessels near the
scalp and hair loss. I wish I could claim them as my own but unfortunately I'm only just
agglomerating the research of other people. But thank you, that was very complimentary
and I really appreciate it. [laughter]



Joseph: Sure.



Rob: Okay. So this is the point where we started to communicate; this is, I think February
2015. So, at this point you've purchased the book and you've read through it and you're
ready to implement the massages in this study, and so what happens next? Are you trying
anything else on top of this at the same time or are you gonna just do the massages? 



Joseph: Yeah, I started off with the massages but I also did incorporate magnesium oil
because I heard a lot of good things about it on the hair loss forums. And I did try doing
the derma roller as well too but I didn't do it as frequently and as intensely as I do it now.
So I was using the derma roller but it was only about once a month at most and I wasn't
applying that many strokes and I didn't cover my entire scalp. I only did the areas that I
really wanted to focus in which were my temples and the front patch of my hair. So I only
applied about 20 strokes, whereas as of today I'm applying about 120 strokes on each
region. I didn't really do it correctly. So, I was applying the magnesium while I was doing
the massages and I was also doing the... I use the bristle boar brush to brush my hair
vigorously.



Rob: Okay. So just to set expectations, so you're massaging how much per day and how
often per week are you doing the derma rolls and how often per week are you doing boar
bristle brush? 



Joseph: Yeah. So at first I just wanted to get my feet wet and my scalp obviously wasn't
really adjusting to the regimen, so I had to really perform the massages for the most part
every other day. So it probably came out to be about four days a week that I was doing
the massages. Because at that time I was fasting for the Lenten season, so my diet was
really up to par. So I was having a tough time recovering. As far as the derma rolling goes,
I was doing that about again once a month. So it was probably once, again, every four
weeks and I was only applying about 20 total strokes in each region, starting from the
right temple and working my way up to the front side of my scalp and then all the way to
the left. So I wasn't doing my vertex, I wasn't doing the sides, and I wasn't doing the mid
to last top half region of my scalp.



Joseph: So, I was only doing about 10 vertical strokes and 10 horizontal strokes using
the derma roller. The magnesium oil, I would probably apply once every... I think I did it for
about every four days, four to five days straight, 30 minutes each session. So I just spray
some magnesium oil on my scalp, leave it on there for about 30 minutes and then wash it
off. And then the bristle boar brushing, I would probably do about once a week and apply
about, I don't know, about 50 strokes on each region. So what I would do is I'll get the
brush and I would just press it against my scalp and apply some pressure and move it
around like this. I'll sometimes just brush up like this or brush to the side. So, I did about
50 strokes in each region, once a week.



Rob: Okay. So to recap, I have here that you're doing the massages about four days a
week. And was that just one 20 minute session per day? 



Joseph: Yeah. Yeah, that's correct.



Rob: And then the derma roller, once per month, about 20 strokes per session per focus
area.



Joseph: Yeah. Exactly.



Rob: Okay. And then four to five days out of the week, you were leaving magnesium oil
on for 30 minutes and then washing it off.



Joseph: That's correct.



Rob: And then once a week you were doing the boar bristle brushing.



Joseph: Exactly. About 50 strokes.



Rob: So, you were doing all this by the time that we started talking? 



Joseph: Yes. Yes.



Rob: Okay.



Joseph: Or when we started talking. Once I read through your e-book, I began that
regimen then and there. So I didn't do it before I came across your website or your e-
book, if that's what you're asking.



Rob: Okay. So it sounds like instead of taking the strict massage approach, you wanted
to take more of a multifaceted approach to target both the calcification that we see in the
blood vessels leading to the scalp and then also the fibrosis of the scalp skin. What was
the reason why you decided to do a larger, multifaceted approach versus just the
massages? 



Joseph: Yeah. That's a good question, Rob. I really wanted to tackle hair loss at multiple
angles. I saw you as a last resort. I got really sick and tired of having to try all these
different sorts of treatments one by one and wait and wait and wait, not knowing if I was
gonna get any results. So, I wanted to take a holistic, synergistic approach by applying all
these different tools in my toolbox so that I can know what works and what doesn't. And
if all four of them do work, I'll have a better chance of recovering my hair in a short period
of time. Those were the two main reasons. I didn't wanna to go into it with the long term
mentality; do it for 12 months, focus on just massage and massage only, not knowing if
it's gonna be any effective based on my condition. So, I wanted to incorporate at least
three other tools so that if the massage didn't really work out, maybe some other tool will
compensate for that loss. And hopefully, get the results that I'm looking over that 12
month span.



Rob: That's a great point. So, we know that mechanical stimulation falls under this big
umbrella. And we have derma rolling in there, we have boar bristle brushing, we have
massaging, and we have any other type of mechanical exercise, whether it's stretching
the skin or otherwise. And each of these things targets the mechanisms behind hair loss
in a different way. So, the pressing and the pinching of a massage might be better
targeted for acute inflammation generation for the deeper tissue levels of the scalp.



Rob: Whereas, micro-needling at the derma roller is way more effective at the epidermis
and the dermis layer of the skin; the top two layers of your scalp skin. And the reason why
is because you're actually puncturing it with the derma roller. And so both of those
mechanisms, if we know that acute inflammation generation and then the healing process
promotes new blood vessel networks and new capillaries, and also can stimulate hair
growth by down-regulating certain proteins that are associated with hair loss phases like
transforming growth factor beta one and two, then we know that maybe a multifaceted
approach could be more effective for some people.



Joseph: Absolutely. I agree with your point. And just to touch on the derma roller, you
said something really important. Yes, it is an effective tool because it does penetrate the
deeper layers of your skin. And I don't know if you wanna mention this, but I think it plays
a role with the IGF-1 Protein, and that is a hair growth promoting agent. And so, I think it
increases not only new collagen fibers in your scalp but it also increases more IGF-1
Protein which is known to be a hair growth promoting agent. So yeah, you've touched up
on a good point of the derma roller and I do absolutely agree that if you do apply a
multifaceted comprehensive approach, your odds of you getting your hair back are a lot
higher than if you just focus it on a silo. If you're just isolating your regimen and you're the
trying the massage or the derma roller one by one over a six, 12 month period, it might
take you a longer time to get your hair back because you're not applying all those manual
forces on your scalp and breaking up all that calcification and fibrosis. So, it's much more
effective to have a comprehensive regimen in place.



Rob: And speaking of IGF-1, which you just mentioned, IGF-1 drops significantly when
someone is fasting which is exactly what you were doing at the beginning of this regimen.
So let's talk about your diet and what your fasting protocol was and then let's transition
over into your initial results over just the first month. So let's first focus on diet.



Joseph: Yeah, yeah. That was basically a very tough period. I came across your website
at a very wrong time because I was fasting for the Lenten season so my diet was very,
very restrictive. I was pretty much eating a very low-carb Paleo diet. So I was eating a lot
of grains, I was eating a lot of hummus, legumes, lentils, soups, pretty much anything that
didn't have any dairy or meat. That was what I was eating. I wasn't too big on eating fruits
because I didn't really like fruits at the time before I met you and read about your e-books
so I wasn't too heavy on fruits. As far as vegetables go, yeah I was eating a decent
amount of vegetables but it wasn't still as much as what I'm eating right now. So my diet
was very... I guess you can call it Paleo, and I think it had a tremendous impact on my
thyroid. Because in addition to just working a very demanding job at the company that I
was with, I'm no longer with that company thank God, my stress hormones were right
through the roof. And so you got a culmination of a pretty crappy diet and high stress
levels. And because of this fast that I was doing, that pretty much escalated the rate of
shedding. I went through a massive shedding phase...



Rob: Before we talk about the shed, let's talk about exactly what this fasting protocol is.



Joseph: Oh yeah. Sure.



Rob: So how long are you fasting? Just on a time scale and then also by the day.



Joseph: Yeah. So I was pretty much fasting Monday through Friday, so I wasn't eating
any meat, I wasn't eating any dairy for about five days out of the week. When the
weekend came, I went back to eating just that normal diet because I just couldn't do it for
40 days and 40 nights. So, to answer your question, yes it was for 40 days and 40 nights
so it was a little bit over a month that I was doing it for. And I was pretty much very
restrictive in just eating grains, some vegetables, and a lot of legumes and soups Monday
through Friday.



Rob: Okay. So you're going through this fasting phase, that's 40 days and 40 nights and
then you read this book and you start to take this holistic approach to hair loss and you
start to attack it on multiple different angles as... [chuckle] So, what happens next? 



Joseph: Yeah I went into a massive shedding phase. I think I was doing a lot to my body
and I was putting my body under a lot of stress in addition to the stressful work
environment that I was in. It was like, literally, stress on steroids. And so my body was just
going through a lot of changes and I'm sure it had a hormonal impact and it definitely
suppressed my thyroid. So, you got a high stress work environment. I was applying your
regimen to the fullest because I wanted to get my hair back as soon as possible, so that
meant doing those massages very intensely to the point where I felt and I heard cracking
noises on my scalp. And I think that was part of the classification build up over the years.
So I was massaging my scalp very vigorously, very hard. I was fasting for about a month
and ten days. I had a stressful work environment and on top of it, I wasn't getting about
seven to eight hours of sleep.



Joseph: So you put all that into perspective, you're gonna see a massive shedding
happen. And I remember my shower drain; I looked in my shower drain and I wasn't
shedding 100 hair follicles, it was filled up. It was filled up and it was clogged. So I had to
actually buy a shower drain because my shower was actually getting clogged up and I
had to actually dump the hair follicles that were stuck in the shower drain into the trash
every single time until that fasting period was over. So that was probably over about a
month, a month and a half time span where the shedding pretty much escalated. And it
subsided after the fast and the Lenten season was over.



Rob: Okay. And this is a really good point, you're talking about shedding. And something
that's really natural for any type of person is to have some degree of hair shedding. Now,
even if you're not suffering from any pattern hair loss, someone might typically shed 100-
plus hairs every single day. There's a fear that when somebody is doing these massages
that as they're massaging, they see some of those hairs that would have otherwise fallen
out during the course of the day, fall out during the massages. So a little bit of shedding is
almost expected just due to the nature of the aggressiveness of the massages. With that
said, you should not be filling up a shower drain.



[chuckle]



Rob: You also mentioned to me in an email, that you were gauging thyroid function based
off your body temperature and your oral temperature. And a typical oral temperature for
somebody who has a strong functioning thyroid is about the mid 98 degrees Fahrenheit,
right before lunch time.



Joseph: That's right.



Rob: Right before a meal. What was your temperature at this time? 



Joseph: It was barely at 95 degrees.



Rob: Really? 



Joseph: Yeah it was really low, it was really low. And if I was lucky, it was probably around
96.5 during midday after lunch.



Rob: Wow.



Joseph: If I was lucky. Yeah. That was during the Lenten season.



Rob: Wow. I can't believe it. So when I tried low-carb Paleo and I cut out carbs, initially, I
felt great for about four days. And then I checked my body temperature because I started
to feel more and more sluggish. My oral temperature was in the low 96s and I felt like a
zombie. And I started to look like a zombie too after a little while. So...



[laughter]



Joseph: Sure.



Rob: Introducing carbs again was a life-changer. It was like I'd finally had life back into
my body. And for some people, these low-carb diets do not interfere with the thyroid.



Joseph: Sure.



Rob: Unfortunately, I'm not one of those people and I think that a lot of people who
practice prolonged fasts, or a lot of people who practice prolonged low-carb or ketogenic
diets, are at risk for a decrease in thyroid function which can impact your hormonal profile
and eventually impact your hair follicles.



Joseph: That's exactly right. We're two living testaments of that, right? So I can definitely
concur to that claim.



Rob: So, at this point, you're about a month and a half into the regimen that you've
created for yourself. It's about a month and a half after we've started communicating. You
sent me a demo video of your massaging. And on top of all of this, we also reviewed your
massage technique and we realized you were going so incredibly hard. And the advice
that I gave to you was to just tone it down a little bit. And so what happened after the
Lenten season was over? 



Joseph: Yeah. After Lenten season was over, I had more time on my hands. So I quit my
job so my stress levels were pretty much low. I was getting enough sleep. So I really
wanted to commit to this program fully and do it right the first time around because I
don't want this to prolong or extend for a longer period of time 'cause I wanted to get all
my hair back as soon as possible. So I took your approaches really seriously and I looked
into your dietary recommendations and I decided to... It was gonna be a big lifestyle
change because I was so accustomed in eating a lot of wheat and grains and pasta;
that's what my family lived by ever since I was born. And so, applying your dietary
recommendations were... It was hard because it was breaking a bad habit, but I was
making it into a good habit. And I was... Until this day, I'm very thankful and fortunate
enough that I discovered your diet because it definitely had a big difference in my life as
far as energy levels goes, stamina, what have you, and definitely for my hair.



Joseph: So I looked into how often I should be using the derma-roller. I frankly didn't
think once a month was enough to get all my hair back in a short period of time. I looked
into your massage techniques to see if I was actually using the right form, applying the
right pressure. That's why I sent a lot of follow-up videos and emails because I was
constantly paranoid. I didn't know if my technique was right. I didn't know if I was
applying a lot of pressure. The first video that I sent, I think you commented that I was
doing it correctly. My pinch time was, I think about a second long, which was about right
based on your expectations. The second video that I sent to you was just a paranoia. I
wasn't seeing results within three months or so, so I wanted to send you another video
because I wanted to alter my massage techniques. So I got a little bit paranoid, I got a
little bit stressed out and I wanted to get your input on it, and it looked like I was going a
little bit too hard. And it's good that I reached out to you in advance because if I didn't,
then I don't even know if I would have the results that I have today, so to speak. It
probably would've set me back quite a bit and I probably would've lost a lot more hair in
the process. So... Yeah.



Rob: Okay. So, it sounds like you were able to adopt a new diet that was better
supporting of your thyroid and better fitting for the type of body that you're working with.



Joseph: That's exactly right. A more holistic mother nature diet. So pretty much the
dietary recommendations you have on your e-book, was pretty much the same as my diet
with the exception of eating oysters and liver, just because I don't have the money to
spend on those food products. But aside from that, everything else was equal and the
diet was the big piece. And then also the... Just making sure that I'm doing those
manuals correctly. I was just so paranoid that... That's why I wanted to keep on sending
these videos to you just to make sure that I was doing this correctly over the long haul.



Rob: Yeah. Absolutely. It's nerve racking when you're fasting and you're doing these
massages and instead of seeing progress forward, you're regressing and knocking out
more hairs and seeing a shower drain full of hair. It could be very scary. And so I didn't
mind at all that you were sending me multiple videos. It's better to be clear on these
things than to be doing it wrong for a very long time and then figure it out eight months
down the road, 10 months down the road.



Joseph: That's right.



Rob: So you implement these dietary changes. What are some of the things that you
notice after implementing the diet? 



Joseph: Well, my temperature, my oral temperature definitely increased. So I was, on
average, around 95%. So it went up to about 96.7%, if my memory serves me well,
during midday, and it picked up up until the, I think the high 97s. So I was really close to
getting it to 98 over the course of about one or two months. So my oral temperature was
definitely increasing in the process. I felt better, I felt more energetic and I felt like my hair
was actually healing a lot quicker, like the recovery process, the window was a lot shorter.
Because I think diet is really important for just making sure that your body is able to heal
quickly.



Joseph: And so because of that, I was able to do more massages. So I was able to
massage six days out of the week as opposed to four days out of the week because I
didn't feel sore the next day. When I applied the derma rolling exercises, instead of doing
it once a month, I was able to do it twice a month I was able to do it. And I was actually
able to apply more strokes. Instead of applying 20 strokes in each focus area, I was able
to do 120 strokes in each focus area. So it had a much bigger positive impact on my
mental, physical well-being just by implementing those dietary changes.



Rob: Okay. So to recap, you implement the dietary changes, you notice an uptick in your
body temperature around midday and then on top of that you're noticing that you're
healing a little bit faster from the mechanical stimulation exercises, whether it's derma
rolling, massaging or boar bristle brushing.



Joseph: That is correct.



Rob: And so this is about three months into when we started to communicate and when
you started to implement mechanical stimulation exercises. And at this point, you switch
your massaging to six days per week and is that two times 20 minute sessions? 



Joseph: I still kept it at about 20 minutes because I was applying the other methods as
well too. I also actually just to clarify, I incorporated a back inversion machine. Just
because it serves a function for the lymph nodes. So I wanted to do that and I was
actually massaging my scalp upside down. So those of you who don't really know what a
back inversion machine is, it's pretty much just a machine that reclines you at a 90 degree
angle or to the point where you can actually do a full head stand but you have support;
your ankles are strapped on the bottom. And so you're able to do a head stand without
you having to put your hands on the floor and try to balance yourself.



Joseph: So I was doing a lot of that. I think I did about seven minutes every single day
after the massages. So you take into consideration the massage is for 20 minutes and
then you got a back inversion machine for about seven minutes. I'm already at 27 minutes
doing manuals. And then I was actually also using the bristle boar brush. So I was using
about... I was doing about 15 to 20 minutes of that every so often. I didn't do it every
single day because I went aggressive with it. So I would do it probably once every three
days, the bristle boar brush. So on average I was probably doing manuals about 30
minutes a day if you take into consideration the bristle boar brush, for the most part.
Yeah.



Rob: Okay. So to recap, so you're doing 20 minute massages six times a week.



Joseph: That's exactly...



Rob: And then you're doing the derma roller two times a month and then you're doing 15
to 20 minutes of boar bristle brushing once every three days or so. And then after each
massage session, you're doing an inversion and doing some massaging of your scalp.



Joseph: That's exactly right.



Rob: Okay. And this is at the three month mark. So it sounds like as you adapted a new
diet and got out of fasting, you were able to increase the intensity of the mechanical
stimulation exercises. Part of that is probably just because you were helping to resolve
some of the dietary inflammation that was preventing faster healing. Another part of it is
probably that your scalp at this point was becoming a little bit more elastic since you've
been working it for a while.



Joseph: Exactly.



Rob: And so now we're at the three month mark and what do you start to experience at
this point? 



Joseph: Yeah. I started to notice that the right temple, since this was the last area to go,
there were vellus hairs growing in that area. So that actually motivated me into sticking
with the regimen because I knew something was working. I don't know if it was the bristle
boar brushing, I don't know if it was the massage, the magnesium oil, the back inversion
machine, the dietary changes or the derma roller. I knew something was working then and
there and so I started to notice a lot of vellus hairs just start to fill out in my right temple.
My left was pretty much still stagnant. The front, the mid-section and the vertex were still
stagnant because I wasn't really massaging my entire scalp. And I should've clarified this
point to be begin with, so my apology on that.



Joseph: When I was applying the massage techniques, I was only focusing on these
areas right here. So my two temples and the front patch of hair right here. I wasn't really
focusing on the sides or the back or the mid to last half of my scalp, mid-region of my
scalp. So I was just really focused on the most problematic areas and the most
problematic areas were these three areas right here, my frontal hairline. So I did that for
about I think, up until that five and a half month mark. And we'll get into that discussion
once the right time comes. So I was only focusing on that area. So including the derma
roller and the bristle boar brushing, I was only brushing in this area. And so that was
basically what was happening.



Rob: Okay and so were you still doing magnesium oil at this three month mark or had you
dropped it? 



Joseph: Yeah, I was still doing the magnesium oil. I wasn't applying it, I guess, diligently. I
wasn't doing it five days out of the week. I just did it based on how I felt. So I think on
average I was probably applying it three times a week. I really didn't notice any changes.
Maybe it did cause some of the vellus hairs to fill in on my right side. I don't know
because I was still doing other things. It was still early for me to tell what was working and
what was not. So yeah, I decided just to stick through it and at that five and a half month
mark, when I noticed significant results, I decided to just abandon the magnesium oil
because it was just... I felt like it was just unnecessary and wasn't really doing that much.
And I felt like there were other things that was happening that caused significant
regrowth. And so, I didn't wanna spend more time. It was one less thing that I had to
think about.



Rob: Okay.



Joseph: I wanted to just throw it out of my regimen and just focus on the manuals that
worked the best based on my condition.



Rob: It's kind of funny, for some reason, I find that it's more of a nuisance to apply a
topical, which takes maybe three minutes, than it is to massage my scalp for 20 minutes
a day.



Joseph: Yeah.



Rob: I think it's because topicals, a lot of times, make my hair look really greasy.



Joseph: Yeah.



Rob: Or if it's apple cider vinegar, it smells really bad. It's kinda tougher to deal with
something like that whereas I can massage my scalp when I'm watching TV. I can do it in
my room. I can do it anywhere. I can do it in front of people and maybe they won't even
notice.



Joseph: That's right. [chuckle] That's right. And it's probably much more effective than
applying those topicals. I mean, for me, I always ran into trouble because sometimes the
magnesium oil would just drip and fall on my eyebrows and sometimes get into my eyes.
So, that was a pain in the ass, so to speak. Like you said, and you have to leave it on your
scalp for about 30 minutes so it's just annoying to leave some sort of liquid on your scalp.
And it is a little bit irritating. It does kinda sting. So, I can see why topicals can be more of
a nuisance, so to say.



Rob: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So this was at the three-month mark. Now, after you've
implemented all these changes, you're starting to see some progress at the temples and
then just general hair thickening, but you've only started to really only massage the focus
areas of your scalp. So let's move to that five and a half month mark because that's when
you started to see even more progress and let's just talk about what you saw at that point
and what you were doing regimen-wise.



Joseph: Yeah. The vellus hairs actually started to turn terminal on the right side, and I
started to see more vellus hairs on the front right side of my scalp, so right here. The left
side, the back left side was actually filling in, so I started to see more vellus hairs in that
region. Still, this side of my scalp, the left front towards the front left temple, that was still
pretty much unresponsive, so I didn't really see that much change there. But the fact that
I was able to see darker thicker hairs on the right temple, I knew then and there that I was
doing something right and that this regimen is working and it's legit.



Joseph: And so, yeah. I just decided to pretty much increase my dosage and my
frequency. I wanted to actually massage more of my scalp instead of doing 20 minutes
Monday through Friday or Monday through Saturday. I was doing about 25 to 30 minutes
on average, just the massages only. I still did the back inversion machine for about 7
minutes a day, and I actually incorporated one cool looking tool called a rubber scalp
massager. I just bought this over the internet. It's similar to a rubber scalp massager that
you would use if you're showering and trying to shampoo your hair. If you wanna lather
that shampoo, I think they have some sort of tool that can do that for you and it's very
similar to that. It's just a rubber scalp massager.



Joseph: It's not as harmful or as, I guess, penetrable as a derma roller, so it doesn't have
any needles, obviously. But it was good because it had that stimulating effect. I would just
rub this scalp massager all over my scalp because it just provided for better blood flow. I
just felt like there was just a rush of blood and my scalp felt heated throughout the day. It
just felt good. It felt really nice. It was a good relaxer, so to speak. So I used that for about
five minutes, just to add the icing on the cake. So, I did that. I did the inversion. And at
that point, I wasn't really using the bristle boar brushing as much because I figured to
myself, I'm using a derma roller, it's penetrating my skin, especially the deep layers of my
skin, more effectively than the bristle boar brush. So, I decided to just abandon that
because time is money for me and I was really pressed on time. I was working at a very
demanding job but luckily wasn't as stressful as my last job. I didn't really have enough
time to incorporate all these elements or all these tools every single day because it was
overwhelming for me. So, all in all, the frequency and the intensity, I was able to increase
those two at the five and a half month mark because I felt so motivated and I felt so
excited to see results and I wanted to see more results in a shorter period of time and
that's why I decided to take that approach.



Rob: Okay. And this is a great point because it touches upon the adjustments that our
scalp makes to scalp elasticity. When I first started to massage, I could barely move the
top of my scalp. I couldn't pinch it with one hand. I could barely pinch it with two hands.
And after about a month, it started to loosen up and I noticed that I could go harder and
that I could recover a little bit more quickly from the mechanical stimulation that I'd be
doing. And then two months later, I noticed something even more exponential. And then
after that, at the eight-month mark, my scalp at the top of the head was really loose, way
looser than it was at the two month, five month, or seven month mark.



Rob: And so, there's this long progression that it takes to really gain that scalp elasticity.
And as you progress in the therapy, you notice that you actually have more control over
how hard you can work your scalp. Your scalp is a little bit more forgiving. And I think that
a trap that a lot of people fall into is that they think that in the beginning, if I just massage
super hard and faster, then everything is gonna work out. And the opposite is true. If you
massage too hard when your scalp isn't as elastic, you can actually result in a little bit
more hair thinning because you're gonna be knocking out so many hairs. Now chances
are a lot of the times, you would've shed those hairs anyway. But, it's just not good to go
too hard. We're trying to generate acute inflammation, but this process is also about
healing. So it's part inflammation generation, part healing, and when somebody just only
focuses on the inflammation generation without ever allowing for that healing process to
take place, there can be huge problems.



Rob: And in your case, if you're just focusing more on the inflammation generation, and
you're fasting and you're not eating well, then you're gonna have a cascade of chronic
inflammation because your diet is one of those inputs that can trigger chronic
inflammation and prolong healing periods, and so it's just a perfect storm. It's really great
that you took the time to identify these things and then decided to step back and work
more slowly and then build up over the course of the therapy how much you could
actually work your scalp.



Joseph: That's exactly right. It's all about taking small baby steps. You wanna test the
waters. You wanna see how well your scalp adjusts to these sorts of treatments because
it is new for your scalp. And so, I think if people can just take small baby steps at least for
the first three months, go through that trial and error phase like I did, and see what they
need to do. It might be for them that they only have to do it for about a month because
their scalp adjusts more quickly than my scalp did. And if that happens, that's great.
Maybe in a month or two they can start applying a more aggressive approach. They can
start intensifying their exercises so to speak. But for me, I had to wait about three months
in order for my scalp to adjust to the treatment, 'cause I was just going through a lot at
that time. All in all, it's all about taking baby steps. A perfect analogy, if you're gonna go
to the gym and you're first starting out, are you gonna really lift heavy weights? And
you're gonna go every single day? You're probably not, because if you're gonna do that,
you're probably going to strain a muscle. It's probably gonna set you back. So same thing
with the hair and the scalp, it's the same exact thing.



Rob: That's a great analogy.



[chuckle]



Joseph: Thanks Rob. Thanks.



Rob: So, just to recap, I have some notes about your regimen at the five and a half month
mark. I'm gonna roll through them. Let me know if I'm right, and if not, we'll clarify.



Joseph: Sure.



Rob: So you're doing the massages six days per week for 25 to 30 minute sessions now.
You're doing your back inversions still seven minutes daily. You're incorporating a rubber
scalp massager to give your hands a break? 



Joseph: Yeah, so to say.



Rob: So the rubber scalp massager is to work the scalp skin in place of the hands for
your massages.



Joseph: Exactly. That's right.



Rob: Okay. And then you're also derma rolling 2 times a month still? 



Joseph: Exactly.



Rob: And you've dropped the boar bristle brush for the most part, and then you've also
dropped magnesium oil.



Joseph: That's exactly right. That's on par.



Rob: Okay. So five and a half months, tell me about your progress from that point moving
forward.



Joseph: Yeah, fast forward until this present time, so to speak. Yeah, I just started to
experience huger gains. I think the one month that really topped it off and where I
experienced a lot of gains on the right side, about 80% of my hair follicles were pretty
much regrown in that area, was at month eight. That was really significant in my life.
Month eight was a pretty important month where I started to notice a lot of changes in the
right temple, and I started to see more vellus hairs fill in in the front area. And actually the
left side, the front left side of my temple, was actually starting to fill in with vellus hairs so
to speak.



Joseph: Now this front left side right here, that was still unresponsive. I still didn't see any
changes there, I still don't know why at that eight month mark. But to this day, I'm
actually seeing two new vellus hairs. It's something that I shouldn't be proud about, but at
least it's some sort of progress. And I always tell myself, so long as if I'm seeing any sort
of progress, I'm not gonna be abandoning this regimen. And the fact that I'm able to see
two new vellus hairs sprout out in this left frontal region, is beyond amazing for me.
Because I haven't seen any of that at the eight month mark, at the 10 month mark, at the
six month mark, so I'm just really proud about myself. Because I just felt that since this
area was the first to go, it's gonna take a lot longer to repair and to come back to life.



Joseph: So yeah, I was experiencing a lot of significant gains. My left temple now is
probably about 60% regrown, so it's about... When did I start this? Back in late February,
so it's been almost about a year. So it's almost about 18 months or so Rob, if my math is
right. About 18 months where the left is starting to respond to this treatment, and I have a
feeling that at the two year mark, I have a big feeling that I will be able to see about 90%
of the left side fully regrown. This right side by the way is about 90, 95% regrown. You
can hardly tell that I'm actually balding in that area. If I wet my hair, you can probably see
some areas where it's a little bit balding, but it's unnoticeable.



Rob: That's awesome. Congratulations! 



Joseph: Yeah, yeah thanks Rob. It was a big achievement, and it's all because of you and
what you've recommended, so you were obviously the catalyst. You were the main driver.
You were main contributor, and I was pretty much the protege. I was just the student,
learning from your methods and trying to implement it and I believed in you from the start.
I know I was a little bit skeptical, and I'm sure a lot of users are skeptical when they first
meet a new person, but that's natural. We're all humans, we're creatures of habit. But,
yeah, I believed and I stuck through the regimen from the beginning until this day, and it's
served me well, it led to fruition. So I can finally see the fruits of labor so to speak. And
yeah, it's been great thus far.



Rob: You know what I think is really impressive is the time commitment that you've given
to these mechanical stimulation exercises. We think about this regimen as a 12 month or
a 10 month period. But the reality is, is that a lot of people who tend to respond more
slowly in the beginning will see progressive gains one year in, 15 months, 18 months, and
continue thereafter. And it's not just shown with massage therapy, it's also shown with
derma rolling. There are some forums where people have been tracking their derma rolling
progress over two years, three years, even four years and the growth is incredible, but it
takes such a long time. Reverting these processes that are going on in the scalp, the
fibrotic tissue and potentially the calcification in the blood vessels, is not an overnight
ordeal.



Rob: And those two factors really need to be resolved before the scalp has an
environment that can support hair. So it's just so hard to get it back there. But for some,
the process is shorter than others, and for others, the process is longer but you can still
see incredible gains. So I think it goes to, it's a testament to your commitment and your
character that you've continued this process and that you've seen tremendous success
and that you're continuing to see success to this day. You're not fully recovered, but
you're getting there, and you will get there eventually.



Joseph: That's exactly right, yeah. Just have that persevering mindset. Users should just
have that... They're in it for a long haul. They have to set reasonable expectations and just
be fully committed to it because unfortunately there's not a one size fits all solution. And
it's also gonna depend on how advanced your hair loss is too. Fortunately, I was still able
to have a lot of my hair on the sides and part on the top, middle half region. So I wasn't
completely bald thankfully but if a bald person is watching this video and they're curious
on how they can regrow their hair, don't expect that you're gonna see full 100% results
within that six month mark. It's just not gonna happen, you gotta set realistic goals. And
you gotta go and you gotta have that long term mindset and just continue to work at it
until you get to your ultimate goal.



Joseph: It's a business; the way I view my hair is a business. So I have the expectation
that hopefully within two or two and a half years I'll be able to fully regrow my hair and
there's not gonna be a sign of baldness. So it's not, again it's not gonna happen
overnight, it's a business and I'm willing to work at this business so I can be able to see
the fruits of my labor hopefully within the next half a year or so. And I think if you have
that mindset, I think the sky is your limit. I think if you see it as terms of you're trying to
build your business and you're trying to make it prosperous and successful, I think that
will go a long way and it'll be a lot easier for you to try to get your hair back in a timely
manner.



Rob: That's a great analogy again. [chuckle] So before we wrap this, is there any other
advice that you'd like to impart on anybody who might or might not watch this video? 



Joseph: Yeah. There's three pieces of advice that I wanna say to those who are watching
this video. The first piece of advice I wanna give out is, set realistic goals and
expectations. Be fair to yourself and be fair to this program. Don't expect to see full
results within a short period of time. Don't be like me; I've had a lot of suicidal thoughts in
the past. I've suffered from a lot of chronic depression, and I went through a lot of
paranoia because I wanted to see results very quickly. It's just not gonna happen. Set
realistic goals, set realistic expectations, because if you do that, you're gonna feel good
about yourself, you're gonna feel more motivated, you're gonna feel happier as a person.
And just believe that there is light at the end of the tunnel. No matter how bad your hair
loss situation is, if I was able to survive through it, if Rob was able to survive through it, if
numerous other users were able to survive through it, so can you. So just keep that in
mind and I think you'll be more optimistic and this process will be a lot easier. It's gonna
become second nature.



Joseph: I think the first three months are really hard, they're really difficult, but if you're
able to survive those first three months, it's gonna be a part of you. You're gonna be
immune to this program and it's not gonna be as bad as what it was when you first
started. The second piece of advice is try to live a balanced lifestyle. If you're massaging
your scalp every single day, if you're trying to be healthy 24/7, I don't think you're gonna
have any fun. We try to live life to the fullest. I try to take a break. I try to take a break on
Saturdays and Sundays depending on how I feel or depending on how hard I go during
that week. So, if you can just try to live a balanced lifestyle and still socialize and not
focus too much on your hair, you're gonna see quicker results. If you're constantly
paranoid like I was in the past and you're stressed out and you're suffering through
depression, it's gonna set you back. You're gonna elevate your stress hormones, it's just
not a good thing. So just try to be happy, try to remain motivated.



Joseph: Again this is a business. You're willing to create a business, you wanna make it
prosperous, so you gotta take all this little small baby steps to get to where you wanna
get to. And then last but not least, the third piece of advice that I wanna give to users
watching this video, is if there is one big takeaway you can get from this, and you feel like
you cannot devote your entire time in this program, I would say first start with the derma
roller and implementing a better diet. The reason why I say that is because although I did
apply a holistic, synergistic approach, to this day I really feel that the derma roller really
worked wonders in my life and I would probably say that it contributed about 70% of my
success.



Joseph: So, 70% of my regrowth was attributed to the derma roller and the other 30%
was attributed to dietary changes, massages, bristle boar brushing, back inversion
machine and that rubber scalp massager that Rob mentioned. So again, if you don't have
the time to commit to it fully, at least try to incorporate some form of derma rolling,
whether you're applying 20 strokes, 50, 120. Whatever you wanna do, just start
somewhere and then hopefully by then, your scalp will get used to it and it won't be as
bad and then you can incorporate the other methods that we spoke about in the video.



Rob: That is an awesome closing remark and it brings up a really good question, and I
haven't asked it yet, but what type of derma roller do you use? What's the needle count
and the millimeter length? 



Joseph: Yeah. That's a brilliant question. So, I use a 1.5 millimeter and it's 192 needles.
And if you wanna know the direct link where I purchased it, I can send you an email so
you can order it too, whoever's watching this video. And one other thing too that I wanna
mention is that the reason why I think I was able to achieve a lot of regrowth on my
temples and in the front area and in my vertex is because I wasn't... At first, I was using
20 strokes on each focus area, but I increased to 120. Abd I think a lot of users on the
derma rolling forum and blogs and webpages, they're not doing it correctly. It's either
they're not applying enough pressure or they're not using the right needle length. You
sent a study over, I think, or it's in your ebook actually, excuse me.



Joseph: There is a study on this where I think 50 participants applied a 1.5 millimeter
derma roller and Minoxidil and they achieved remarkable results. I think they were able to
regrow 50% of their hair over a three-month period. I think it's gonna be included in your
revised e-book, Rob, if I'm not mistaken. But I use that as leverage, I use that scientific
study as leverage. And I wanted to do it right. I first started at a.5 millimeter derma roller
for about a month or two just to see how my scalp will react to that treatment. And then, I
was able to increase it to 1.5. So, if you are gonna use a derma roller, start at the low end
of the scale, start at.5 millimeter and then work your way up to a 1.5. I wouldn't go more
than a 1.5 millimeter because it's gonna be too invasive on your scalp. And if you guys
are interested in knowing where I get my derma rollers, I can send Rob the link and he
can forward it to you for your curiosity.



Rob: You've also taken the time out of your schedule to make a set of massage videos on
YouTube so that you can demonstrate exactly how you are massaging your scalp. So, talk
to me a little bit about that and then hopefully, we can direct people to those links as well.



Joseph: Yeah, yeah. I'm glad to talk to you about that. I'm glad you mentioned it, Rob.
So, I went ahead and put together three videos of my massage techniques just to make
sure that you guys are doing it correctly. So, I put it on YouTube. My YouTube channel
name is Reborn Hair PPP, as in P-P-P. They basically stand for prayer, patience and
perseverance. I try to live by that mnemonic every single day. It's gotten me through this
entire regimen and I think it's gonna get me through anything else that I partake in life.



Joseph: So again, my YouTube channel name is Reborn Hair PPP and you'll see a series
of five videos. Two of those five videos show my 10-month update on my temples, my
hair growth on my temples and on my vertex. I also disclose on the description box, my
entire regimen for those two videos. The other three videos just basically show you the
type of pressure you should be applying on your scalp just to make sure that you're doing
these exercises correctly. So, I think it will be very informative and valuable to you, to
anyone who's watching this. If you have time to take at look at those videos, and if you
have any comments or suggestions or questions, please feel free to comment below the
description box and I'll be able to answer those inquiries to the best of my knowledge.



Rob: That's awesome. Thank you so much. And is there anything else that you'd like to
say that we haven't yet covered? 



Joseph: Yeah. One other thing, Rob, I don't think you've mentioned this, is I guess you're
probably curious to know what I'm actually doing now, if I'm incorporating any new
methods other than the one I mentioned and maybe, I should've clarified that point earlier
on.



Rob: Oh, sure. Okay. Yeah. Let's take it from here. So, you've seen all this progress so far
and are you doing anything new now that you wanna tell people about? 



Joseph: Yeah. Just recently, about three and a half months ago, I have incorporated the
onion, garlic and apple cider vinegar topical extracts. So, what I basically do is I get three
cloves of garlic, I get about a half size of red onion, and I get about a tablespoon of apple
cider vinegar and I put it in a blender and it comes out very concentrated. It comes out as
a paste. And I pretty much drain that using a funnel and a paper towel into a four-ounce
bottle that has a dropper, similar to the Rogaine. And I use this dropper and I just apply
this topical on my scalp every single day. And I put a shower cap just for better
absorption and I leave it there for about an hour before I wash it off.



Joseph: What I've been doing also differently with the derma rolling exercise is that, I've
actually been applying that topical on my scalp because it's a lot easier for me to derma
roll my scalp. I have a lot of hair on the top and on the sides so, it's sometimes hard for
me to part my hair and derma roll. And sometimes the derma roll gets stuck on my hair
because I just have so much hair on the top now. So, what I do is I just apply that topical
because when your hair is wet it's just a lot easier for you to derma roll and I think it might
have some sort of... That topical, I think, is effective in reversing your hair loss.



Joseph: There's a guy named Stefan on YouTube that was able to reverse his hair within
a six month period. And so, I have a feeling that if I'm puncturing my scalp with the derma
roller and this topical's residing on my scalp, I think I'll be able to get my hair back much
quicker. So, I'm actually experimenting that and it still hasn't made that much of a
difference but that's what I've been doing a little bit differently. And I've also been doing a
lot of juicing. I've been eating a lot of dark green vegetables or I just put it in a blender
and I mix it with a couple of fruits.



Joseph: And last but not least, I've been actually doing some form of intermittent fasting
and I'm not recommending that anyone should do this, I just do it just for health reasons.
It has some good anti-aging benefits. But I don't fast every so often, probably like... Not
frequently, I just do it every so often, sporadically, about once a month and it's usually
about a 16-hour to a 24-hour fast. And I'm on wheat grass and water for the most part. I
just do it because... I just feel like you're just bombarding your body every single day with
food. And I just feel like you gotta give your body a break from eating. So, I do it just
because internally I know it's gonna make a big difference. Externally, I don't think it's
made a big difference, but I know internally it has some good anti-aging properties and I
think it's gonna extend your lifespan, so to speak. So, that's why I do it.



Rob: So, circling back to the derma roller plus the topical, what's your protocol? Are you
using the derma roller and then a few minutes later applying the topical? 



Joseph: That's a good question. I actually apply the topical right before the derma roller
and leave it on there for about 10 minutes, let it soak, keep your entire scalp moist, and
then after that 10 minute period is up, I go ahead and get the derma roller and I start
cutting my scalp with the derma roller. That's what I do.



Rob: So, do you use the topical every day on top of that as well? 



Joseph: Yeah, I try to be consistent, so I use it about six days out of the week. I always
give myself at least one day of rest. So, yes, I try to be consistent. So, I've been doing it
for three and a half months, and I think maybe the reason why I'm beginning to see two
vellus hairs appear on the left frontal side, is maybe because of this treatment. I'm still not
too sure but it's still too early to tell, but I'm in it for the long haul, and I'm actually gonna
do it for the next six months just to see where it takes me.



Rob: That's awesome.



Joseph: I'll definitely keep you posted on my progress.



Rob: Yeah. I'd love to see... Because you also have... The YouTube videos show some of
your progress as well, so you can continue to just update that video as you progress
along.



Joseph: That's exactly right. That's a good point. I'm glad you pointed that out. Yeah, I
actually plan on uploading two more new videos to show you what my 15-month update
looks like on my temples and on my vertex. So, yes, I will be posting those videos, so
please guys keep an eye out for it. I just haven't had time because I'm actually juggling
three careers. So I am a workaholic, but I definitely will find time to upload those videos.
Because I think it's gonna be beneficial and I think it's gonna help the public, and I'm here
to just share with all of you as much knowledge as possible just to help you get the
results that I got, that Rob got and that other users have gotten over the course of six to
12 months. So, yeah, yeah. [chuckle] That's pretty much it.



Rob: Joseph, thank you so much for all of your time today. I can't tell you how much I
appreciate your willingness to just talk about this. It's so hard for people to talk about hair
loss. And it's also really nice to just chat with somebody about it and to know that it's
also a process that I think 85% of men by the age of 55 have. So, we're all kind of in it
together. I can't thank you enough for your time and I really appreciate this interview and
I'm looking forward to your continued progress.



Joseph: Thanks, Rob. Thanks again. It's been an honor. It's been a big privilege to be on
board and thanks for giving me the opportunity and for putting me on a pedestal, so to
speak, to share my concrete experiences with this world. So, I really appreciate that.



Rob: Awesome. Thank you, Joseph. Have a great evening.



Joseph: All right, thanks a lot. Take care.