m0 LACANS aK ARE USED IN TAAL KT | NCU L1 A Lacanian Psychosis: Interview by Jacques La ‘Transtaton's Nove neolgiom and have included the French ter in parenthene In short, Ihave tran ‘geod French into good English and broken ‘erroneous French into lets than nals. At present, the original Pench trameript 's unpullineg deal of ints here. I mean that people are real in your ease. You spoke with Peychiatrists. Many things have been somewhat clar about youn (Mr Primes ) | don't know why I would not let you speak. You ky very well what is happening to you, Mr. Prisenu: manage to det hold of myself ‘manage to get hold of yourself? Explain to me wha ‘regard to language, disjunction betwe re isan equivalence between the... two worlds in 1 td not a prevalence. Between the worl and reality -ohet phcnahsin ft Strand funder ofthe Eele Fran de Pr He rst ichomaby in Pais 1»2 ‘The Prychoanalytc Interview called realtythere isa disjunction. I am constantly making the imaginative flow. Da. Lacan: Speak to me about your name. Because Gérard Pimeau, isnot. ‘Ma. Panweav: Yes, I had decomposed, before knowing Raymond Roussel... ‘When I was twenty, 1 was studying mi ince then interested in physical fact, and there is substrata, Language could present strata ‘composed my name into Geai, a bis Da, Lacane Geai Rare Ma, Prawenv: Prime feagmented my name to create. What! have to tell you Dr. Lacane And then—what then? What do you ca tolé—imposed speech? Ma. Pruiteau: Imposed speech is an emergence which imposes itself on my intellect and which has no meaning in the ordinary sense, These are centences which emerge, which are not reflexive, which are not aleady thought, but ‘which are an emergence, expresing the unconscious... 1 do not know how it comes, imposes itself on my bran, ft comes Killed the bluebird. Ifs an anarchic system. ...? Sentences which intelleet. ‘There is also a kind of counterbalancing. With the physi named Dr. DI have an imposed sentence which says Mr. D— then I have a sentence which counterbalances, i disjunct Dr. Lacan: Give me other examples. ‘Ma, Pannazav: Ihave lot of complexes, at times I'm very aggressive, Loften have 4 tendency . Da. Lacan: You are “aggressive.” What does that mean? 1, (This fer tothe rtf uo years of ud preparatary to entanc nto one of Frene's Dex pate unk ‘Mode fe his cout of stay har radted om the ular of high ‘chook with 4 outstanding vcard | 7 [Pronounced exact ike Gérard) 5 [rAnarchie sete” in Engl in the original tet) ‘A Lacanian Prychoss Ma. Paineau: Ive explained Dr. Lacate You don't appeat, cant say any mo Da. Lacan: You are Ma. Prue: I end t com Pca: pense, Lam aggresive, not ‘end compen vith impo snare Tan are cle nw. end to recver withthe ipod nena Tend yone nie or Benutl,... then at other times I have agressive iy crepe ae aggresive, in Dr. Lacie Take your time, Mr. Panutsv: There are ‘going to succeed in telling me how that happens lenty of me to find out whee you a tie foe nee adn hear peop by teat ok "ging sentences, which are meaningless, as I ju Dr. Lacan: Give a sample, Ma. Prumean: to kill me the bh political azsasi political asst traction of word ot “assassination” (assais nat], which evokes the notion oiemmcnioe =2 ‘The Peychoanalyic Interview ‘emerging sentences. Since when have they been emerging? This is not an idiotic 'No, no. Since 1 di March 1974, was diagnosed as having paranoid rancid delusions"? have full confidence in them. Good, ‘Ma. PaimeAu: On the other hand, I think that speech can be @ wold force, beyond words. Da, Lacan: Exactly, let’ try to see. You have just presented your doctrine, And in fa native influence, where ject the people sround me from the real. ‘That isthe most important. My ld have 2 sense which is mut which would be completely ‘The two worlds would be completely disjoined. On the iposed sentences, to the extent that they emerge sometimes Person, are bridges between the imaginative world and the real. Da. Lacan: Yes, but finally the fact remains that you maintain a clesr distinc Its Mr. Panzau: I don't think I'm inventing, It is disjointed, but that has no... 1 you I ain affaid of making a mistake Dr. Lacan: You think that you have made a mistake in answering? ‘A Lacanian Peychots Ms. Patvstau: I have not made a mistake. All speech has the force of speech is signifying, but apparently at fist they do not have a purely ¢ sense De. Lacatt Where did you find this expression “all speech is signifying ‘Mr. Pauneeau: It’s 2 personal reflection. conscious of this disjointed world, I am not sure of jointed world Da. Lacan: You are not sure of... ‘Ma. Prnzav: Lam not sure of being conscious of this disjointed world. [1 know if the... has nothit , Da. Lacan: Yes, there you are only a geai rare, if indeed. .. Mn, Pruneau: No, the geai rare is in the imagit Primeau isthe world commonly called real, while in the Geai rare prine au. Itis perhaps from my word Prime, wl which codifis, which has force, 1 used a term in one Dr. Lacan: In one of your poems? Mr. you are the prey ofa certain dream? Me. Prineau: Dr. Lac Ma. Prumeav: I am tired. I do not feel very well this morning; [ am not in ‘mood to tall, Dr. Lacan: Why the devil not? Mn. Prntsav: Because I was a litle anxious,Pa ‘The Prychoanalytic Interview Da Lacan: It makes you anxious to speak with me? Do you have the feeling that 1 understanding mn Ma, Pangeau: social fact. No, I was afraid of you because I have alot of complexes. You are Known personality. I was afraid of meeting you. Itwas a very simple Dr. Lacan: G—, he wasn't the frst piychiatrst you saw? ‘Mn, Primeau: Yes, he was the first. I saw Dr. H— when I was fifteen, Dr. Lacan: Who took you to him? ‘Ma, Prnwzau: D— Laboratories. : Dk. Lacan: You, did you have career counseling? You told me that you studied maths supérieures ‘Ma, Priezav: At what level sifted... T always tended toc ‘maths supéricures, I dropped out because T have. igence rather than on work. In A Lacanian Peychoss Dr. Lacan: Ihave... 25 problem with a giel, 1 began supérieures in November, and then 1 cracked after two months becats problem with a gitl. Afterward I abandoned maths supérieures because | nervous breakdown. Dr. Lacan: You had a nervous breakdown linked to... ? Mr. Prnwsau: To this disappointment with the gid Da. Lacan: This disappointment concemed whom? Mr. Pxuweau: A young woman I knew at summer camp. I was a counseh 0 was she, Dr, Lacan: Yes. I do not see why you would not sey what her name wa Mr, Penagau: Héléne Dr. Lacan: You speak of your parents. You have already situated your fal litle, And your mother? Prieav: I was brought up by my mother because my father, a me salesman, vas working in the provinces. My mother was a very anxious, i wyself was very retroactive, very, very reserved nt; there was no true affective contact fron f mental anxious, hypersensitive, exposed to family fights with my father when he c home for the weekend. The atmosphere was tense and anxiety-provoking. It that by osmosis I myself was very anxi Da. Lacan: When you speak of osm: Between what and wha is there osmosis? thet is frst a becoming conscious between wh psychological tension created, anxiety in relatio 5 [The French fl (1 have") i homaphone of Ceol and Ca6 “The Prychoanalytic Interview the real, but carnal, that is to say, in relation to the body, and which then passes that !eannot. feel Tong time 1 was talking about th «Twas obsessed by. 3s apparently linked and which ‘could not manage to get hold of myself in onic interact ‘neurovegetative developments or whatever. I had been Ted to Dr. Lacan: But you know that we don’t know any more about ‘Ms, Prmacav: I had been led to think that, seeing that biology ‘being in the brain, I had been led to think that thought, {ind of projecting wave, a wave directed toward the outside. 1 do these waves were projected toward the outside, but language... Thisis elated to the fact that Ma, Primeau: inning, to. Dr. Lacan: You have some things written by you? 1 ‘Z_— had asked me to bring them. But 1 ‘would like to conti ed, by poetic action, to find a balancing rhythm, & rmusie, I was led to think that speech isthe projection of an inte which arises toward the outside. Da. Lacane Intelligence, speech. What you call intelligence is the usage of speech. Ma, Panweav: 1 toward the outside, as that intelligence was an undulating projection ‘do not agree with you when you say that intelli- ‘A Lacanion Peychors led a“cinema” in medicine. to formulate these images be |, aside ftom you? Because you do think that yc ue ts Yes 1 think that 1 am beauti, ign tothe fac tha eck people who ha on ofthe ice which pus oe a laos ane Dr. Lacan Let talk bout the person nae wat He, Did hs tag no Reocsaped you in 1967.» in. Priseeav: Ye NB Pea: Yes, he radiated. Fly, met othe. Persons, men as well as women. Sexually, 1a @ woman as with a man. I was speakit svar ey ae ofits ee en Dr. Lacan: eae t sal bay iro a you mean. I am not obliged to participate, u mean. But really, you did n i tb lucked ie hat, by Sr ge matty wesc, In. PRIMEAU: About a question ... you to... ?~ ‘The Peychoanalytic Interview Dr. Lacan: Tell me, : Ma. PRinteau:. .. of opposition with my parents. My mother was very silent, but ‘my father, when he came home for the weekend... about questi luca ie ith the advice that he used to give It, alteady very independent, and 1 was ted to give me, as though possibility of going beyond them by myself, without receiving father. It was then. you opposed him. yember anymore what he said, He made me speak, then oom, and he spoke with my father. He did not give there, He made me take tests, undressed. [had a lot of ‘complex,” for you, signifies. pecially centred that what you mean? You have already used this word Iso about relationships. I have hhave the impression of being, "2 You feel that you ste Ma. Prnweau: Yes, Ihave complexes about speech, comple aout ss lie It is through fear, ie ing, of... an Thave a tendency to to myself because of that. 1 have a lot of difficulty... I stop myself sor I cannot... The fact that I was afraid to see you, before, was an Mr. PrimEau: I tried to tead your books. Dr. Lacaw: Ah yes. You tried? (Mr. Primeau a of everyone. ‘Mn. Prnaeav: I don't remember anymore. I read that when I was very young, ‘when I was eighteen, Dr. Lacan: When you were eighteen you read some things that [had produced. ‘A Lacanim Prychoris Ms. Panweau: Yes, ‘Dr. Lacan: What year does that put us in? Mr, Pameau: Da. Lacan: That had just come out, Ma. Prunieau: I do not remember, Dr. Lacav: At that time you were MB, Piwsav: At the C— Clini for students. I saw it in the brary ‘Dr. Lacaw: What pushed you to open this damned book? Ma. Praueau: twas under the influence of fiend who had spoken to leafed through it. There were a lot of erms which were very” Dr. Lacan: Very what? Ma. Praweau: Very Dr. Lacan: Yes, ress you? Ma. Prius Itpleased me, I didnot read all oft simply skimmed thro De. Lacan: Good, Let’ go, ty to come back. Dirty poitialasssnaten these assasinations? ‘Mr, Panaeau: No, there is “political asitants” and the Dr. Is there a difference between “assistant” and “ that there was perhaps a rati etween dirty assassination, « these contractions of words and “assistant”... 1 was also interested in the contrctio wnple, Thad known Béatrice Sarmeau, whois singer. In girhhad said some very lovely 1m the place where read yo vous lis, ne s'est pas Béatrice en Da. Lacan: And who else tide of Helene, to call her by her name, and the P you? Tell me that. Mr, Prnceav: Then Claude Tours; [knew her at C—, Dr. Lacay: Tell me a litle about her Ma. Prnarau: She was sls a poet. She worked slone on the piano, and she Vénure—who “ver 1 had a kind of beauty. She was very much 8 taking. Her face was puffed up. Later I Ma, Panteau: Yes, she resembled h ‘This lady has put on makeup. was nineteen, because I had the impres- ual complexes... because nature endowed me with a very Dr. Lacan: Tell me a little bit zbout that, ‘A Lacanian Peychosie ‘Ma. Priweau: I had the impression that my sex was shrinking, and | {impression that I was going to become a woman, Dr, Lacen: Yes. ‘Mr, Panweau: I had the impression that I was going to become a tran Dr. Lacan: A transsexual? Ma, Prnieau: That isto say, a sexual mutant. Da. Lacav: That is what you mean? You had the feeling that you were become @ woman, Ma. Prineau: Yes, Uhad certain habits, I used to put on makeup, 1 impression of he shrinking the same time the will tok woman, and into the peye! Dr. Lacawe You hoped. theless a kind of hope. Ma. Patieau: It was a hope and an experience, Dr. Lacan: Your experience is... that nonetheless you sill have a ms: organ, yes or no? Mr. Panweau: Yes, Dr. Lacan: Good, then how is it an experience? It was what way is it an experience? In hoping er Tike a by Dr. Lacan: Which isto say ‘again play on words. It remai yourself to be a woman? Mr. Prnseau: No, Dr. Lacan: Yes ot no? ‘were hoping to experience,” if we ca atthe state ofa hope... Finally, you ne Da. Lacan: Yes, pardon me, of through you. Did you ever Mi. Pruntzau: No, [saw ms ion. Since intuitions are images th: Yourself as a woman? ‘woman in a dream, but lam going tot woman in a dream. What do you ¢ ‘Mr. Prameav: A dream? I dream at night. Dr, Lacan: You ought nonetheless to perceive that they are not the sal dream at night. 6 [The French word expérimenta can ao be tated “experenti")‘The Poychoanalytic Interview 2 2 And a waking dcam. s ae rand the eam Bat you youself have cal waking” and to iy Titer undrtood, you have ened imped speach Wht are ih sees when gneisasleep—is that of the same See chris sey approval ayo ying, Dt peep yo ave your own ideas. avs No, ther tno relationship. i Det Lacan Then why do you cll your gl ch at Ms ma: pach ot deo ent etn me Dr. Lacan Then these words or speeches... 1: No, they ae sentences. gee De: Laon Ths pers which ps though you eet yew asainon, "This is very cote to what you ssid youl, for example, ire a ronarchize me. This is something that you sey, but itis an imposed speech. you harm and to Do you agree? i: it the speeches emerge as such, they invade you Mar. Primeau: Yes, they invade me. Maye ye ea Casas ey that you play this part. You agree? 7 ee his sentence: They has never happened that I add a sentence tot ine my inlet But Royalty not defeated o idee. 10 AA Lacanian Prychosis the reflection that you add on, and in general—thie isnot the only ex you add a “but.” You just said, But Royalty is defeated. Ma, Praweav: They wari to m defeated isa reflection, ronarchize my intellect, emergence. But R yours, you made it up? mergence has been impesed on me. Ite llectual drives that come to me, which ¢ themselves on my intellect Dr. Lacax: During our discussion ... 7 ‘Ma. Prumzau: I have had a lot of them, Dr. Lacae: Perhaps you ca Ms. Pauweau:The Bluebirds, They want to get hold of me they want to 1 Da. Lacat: Who are the bluebirds? Are the blucbirds here? rds, Mallarmé, “L' Dluebird was the luebird” by “infinite liberty /e must find out wheth Ma, Prinzau: Yes, and ofa tradi Da. Lacane The image ofthe solitary cirle... Ma. Prana: In relation to the’ drea ry intellect De. Lacan: No, but we must nonetheless get tothe bottom of this, Mr, Prneau: It is very difficult, because. Da. Lacan: What do you create? Because for you the word “to create” | meaning. Panasau: At the moment that i emerges frm me, i little like thet. One must not become solitary citeles and of living without bounds im—the nonimaginative [things] creat creation, 1 speaking of re is no contradiction, It4 this chair. Good. You seemed to indicate that you tyone does and that you apprehend it through common sense, the question to bear on this point. Do you create other worlds? ‘The word “et ; Ma. Pruntzau: I create worlds through my poetry through my poetic speech. Dr. Lacan: Yes, and the imposed speeches create worlds? Ma. Prineau: Yes. was a question, Ma. Painezau: Yes, they create worlds. They create worlds, and the proof is that... it boundaries. One comes back, I come back solitary circle where I live without boundaries very tire. Da. Lacan: I just pointed out to you thatthe solitary cis without boundaries, since you are bounded by this sli Mr. Prev: Yes, but in relation to the solitary aries. But in relation to the real, I live with boundaries, body, Dr. Lacan: Yes, all very true, if we know th solitary civcle is nunded in elation to tangible reality, but that does not this eile from living without boundaries. You think in terms, this is true, and you, do you not think thout boundaries produces anxiety. No? ‘Yes, that makes me anxious. But I can't manage to get rd ofthis habit, 'at much said, you had a problem which determined your 1 understood, a suicide attempt. What pushed you to that? Was it Claude? A Lacanian Peychosis Mr. Priwzav: No, no, no, no. It was because of telepathy. Da. Lacane We have not yet touched Ma, Prine transmission of thought, Ma, Prineeav: Pethaps you can't hear me, Dr. Lacan: No, I hear you very well. You are a transmitting teley genera, telepathy concems reception, no? Telepathy wars you of w happened? Ma. Primeav: No, that is clairvoyance. Telepathy is the transmis thoughts. telepaths. ‘example, am I a receptor? 1 do not know. not received the im part of what we will call provisionally “your world.” ‘Mn. PRiMeAu: A world in my image. Dr. Lacan: Do these images exist? Mr. Panmeau: Yes, Dr. Lacate They are something that you receive, since you see them, MR, lepathy concerns speech. ‘The emerging sentence @ in have, because the time on the sentences, but liverse subjects. I do not know what i given by telepath these images are not transmitted by telepathy. Finally, I suppose so, becaut ‘ot at the same time me and an other. Da. Lacan: Yes, but how do you sce that the other receives them? ‘Mr. Praweav: By his reactions, If ever aggress them, if ever sey things do not seem to me... The physicians have often al reasoning that ! make. When I there are different expresions, notion that certain persons receive me. Dr. Lacan: For example, have I received you? ‘Mr. Printeau: I don't think so.36 ‘The Poychoanalytic Interview pir Lacan Because the questions I asked you showed that I was floundering, Who here has received, aside from me? . ‘now, Ihave not had the time to look atthe people. On. tually concentrate and do not at I see, |, a creation? this telepathy, this frozen expres- Dr. Lacate You were abusing them? czived something? Cc Mr. Primeau: Because there were often family squabbles. One afternoor "en C— ditgnosed my paranoid coming back from O—, and. ‘Dr. Lacan: And what? his paranoid delusion? I do not find you delu- Mr. Pruneav: I had a lot of medicine. Lacan Yes, : wn ME Be tA te Mime Twas very enced, 1 Me Prineeav: I had a lot of anxiety already about people heating certain wanted... Me asa Dx ie Ye Beau ht hsbc gh rt Mr. wanted to save France from fascism, Ma. Panu: Ye, hough thoughts I was not fe to ae ns the Dr. Lacan: ‘ment above ours Iwas aggressng them, I heard them cry out, “Mr. Prin waning een a ee be pat in an asylum, tin th pee Bei Dr. Lacays That was what determi not know that I had ‘conscious of the fact that Da. Lacan: You hed, at that through the radio? le, your commiting su To escape my anniety. Inte Just atthe end ofthe interview they were talking of Feto isa sin."* They burt out laughing beth of them, on the radi, ina way thet had ne ‘elation with what they were saying, and I heard, somewhat so le could work at Canard Enchainé.” Is thatthe pure fut ofmy imagination, or dad they really hear me? Were they both in metempsychosis. There was a time, when I was : when ieved 1 was the reincarnation of Nietesche, Dr. Lacan: You thought you were the ‘reincarnation of Nietzsche? Yes, .., 2. mi pale ay o st toc et Ne amir Year hi | ws twenty 1 dlscovered Artaud, When |38 seventeen I read LOmbilie des tim Ata And went ass or ym under the sign of, between March and September, iad emigrated for six months and octurmal dream. I was seven or eight, At ‘metempsychosis, In th Dr. Lacan: A dream within a dream, ves. Ma, Panteau: And I thought I had known this castle before, when I had another Middle Ages. I remember that I knew tht «8 hypothesis that 1 formula dee 'ypothesis that I formulate but which hypothesis that you have emitted sd epeenceflevtatn. develope? ve young when Dr, Lacan: What you call“ what i De roe cl “docoing” wha sta Having econ sensation of rising into the ait, Did From the point of view of thought, ‘A Lacanian Psychosis 39 Dr. Lacan: Yes, one does hope. (silence) Tell me, what are you going to do going to continue to try to get well. Now? Long- or short- {ido not formulate into the future a course of study? Ma, Priweau: No, I am no longer a student. Dr. Lacan: Right now you are not working? , Lam not working, ill have to leave the hospital. How do you envisage pulling yourself tog! Ma, Primenv: IFT succeed in overcoming my anxiety, in finding a possibility for to have a social life without being the prisoner ofthis telepathy. People hear my thoughts, I will not be able to work, it isnot possible. What tortures me the ‘most. Dr, Lacan: Since when have you been feeling litle better? ‘Mn. PraweAu: Since two weeks ago. [had numerous discussions withthe psychi- atrists, and that has locsened me up a litle. But the fact that my secret garden is perceived by certain persons that my thoughts and my reflections are... Dr. Lacan: Your secret garden, is that the solitary cincle? ‘Ma. PrimeAu: A secret garden where the reflections, the images or the refletions How can you have a profes- your reflection and are ect manner, there are and they heard me, that I can have on different subjects, and so on... ‘A month ago I was really very constantly sleeping, Iwas very broken up. I had thous! i once, because one cannot felepathy, which has not always existed, which was born atthe mo ‘ Da. Lacan: Which has not always existed? Imposed speech came fist? Mr. Primeav: Imposed speech and telepathy began in March 1974, ..» at the paranoid delusion, when I wanted to fight the fascists and so forth, with thoughts, Dr. Lacan: Atthe time you were seeing HH.. ‘The Poychoanaytic Interview Mr. Peaneeay: him once. Dr. Lacan: At * did you have anything like the imposed speech or the telepathy? Mr, Painanau: No, thats not right. Besides, when I saw ‘my psychiatrist GC— atin, when I retumed from O—, he said to me: “Your telepathy..." I had frgn-fve dlectrshocls,thiteen at N— and twelve at Oo Tam more and more anxious. I can't manage o concentrate. Wi ‘lectroshocks they attain the cells Dr. Lacan: That is what you think. The drama of being ill, for you, is the gave them very openly, they were mathematical series or poetio rember that. That is why they sid I was delusional whois tight, the physicians or you? Ma. Pruneau: I don't know... Dak Lécate: You put sours in the hands ofthe phytiians, Me Panwcau: {put myself in ther hands, tying to rnc my free wil Da. Lacan: You have the feling that fee will in your ki you have just told me, you are undergoing certain thin, stand Ma. Pranceav: Yes, but... Dr. Lacan: Yes, but Mr, Praweav: Lave a hope, a hope of finding my power judgment again, my Power of dialogue, a power to get hold ofthe persona ink that that isthe yposterucial problem. Like I had told you atthe begin can't manage to get hold of myself, 10. [Welbon television pesonslien) a ‘A Lacanian Peychosis - hand) I wo Dr. Lacan Good, my friend, good-bye. (Dr. Lacan shakes his hand) hhappy to have some samples of your. Ma. Paanteav: Of my Br. Lic Wel gt pe fv da E Ma. Proau: Thank you, sit. (He leaves the roo Da. Lacan: When we get into details, we see thatthe clasica treatises do not oi ee seinen J examined someone who had been labeled a Freudian ian” paychosis... very clearly marked, paychoris. Today we have seen a “Lacenian” prychoris... very clearly the imposed speech has been getting ay Ioace ce aep e B 10w he is going to get out fit. There are suicide attempts which, Yes. z ical picture which you will not find described, even by good CChaslin, It isto be studied.