dejan kršić

Umjetnost uvijek
ima posljedice
dejan kršić

Art Always Has

Its Consequences
razgovarali
interviewed by 

portreti
portraits Damil Kalogjera
Maroje Mrduljaš Borut Vild

Razgovarali u Zagrebu 4. siječnja 2016. Interviewed in Zagreb on 4 January 2016

¶ Dejan Kršić je polivalentni kulturni radnik: dizajner, publi-
cist, sveučilišni nastavnik, povjesničar i kritičar dizajna, član
kustoskog kolektiva whw... Sve te aktivnosti povezuje Krši-
ćeva intelektualna radoznalost, otvorenost prema usvajanju
novih estetika, ali ponajviše postojanost njegove angažirane
političke pozicije i uvjerenje da su kulturna proizvodnja
i društvena stvarnost neraskidivo povezane. O pojedinim
dionicama njegova bogatog profesionalnog djelovanja
razgovarali smo nakon Kršićeve analitičko-retrospektivne
izložbe održane u Zagrebu, Cetinju i Splitu, a prije izlaska
knjige Art Is Not a Mirror, It Is a Hammer, koju potpisuje s
Markom Golubom.
¶ Dejan Kršić is a versatile cultural worker: designer, publicist,
university professor, historian and a design critic, member of
the curatorial collective whw… All of these activities are con-
nected by Kršić’s intellectual curiosity, openness towards the
acceptance of new aesthetics, but most of all by the stability
of his engaged political position and the belief that cultural
production and social reality are inseparably connected. We
discussed certain aspects of his rich professional activity after
the launch of his analytical and retrospective exhibition in
Zagreb, Cetinje and Split, and before the publishing of the
book Art Is Not a Mirror, It Is a Hammer, which he wrote with
Marko Golub.

158 oris, broj 103, godina 2017. oris, number 103, year 2017 DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Intervju DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Interview 159
 maroje mrduljaš — Studirao si povijest umjetnosti i etno-
grafiju, a ja te u 1980-ima pamtim kroz teksotve o pop-kulturi
u Quorumu koji su bili izuzetno zanimljivi jer se njome baviš
problemski, u širem društvenom kontekstu. Taj pristup uklapa
se u vrijeme kada se o postmodernizmu u Zagrebu intenziv-
nije govori, pogotovo u časopisima za kulturu koji su tematski
i teorijski raznoliki, sinkretički. Književnost, teorija, pop-kul-
tura, sve je bilo pakirano u jednom. ¶ dejan kršić — U to
je doba produkcija časopisa kod nas bila izuzetno bogata.
Pitanja, Quorum, Republika, beogradsko Delo ili Marksizam
u svetu izuzetno utječu na moju generaciju. Svi ti časopisi i
novine, Polet i Studentski list, Start i kasnije Mladina, pro-
filirali su određenu publiku. Mislim da nam to danas nedo-
staje; neke aspekte kulturne recepcije dostupnost materijala
na internetu ipak ne može nadoknaditi. Časopisi pripadaju
određenom kulturnom prostoru, tada jugoslavenskom, pa
se sličnomišljenici u Ljubljani, Zagrebu, Novom Sadu ili Banja
Luci prepoznaju i povezuju preko njih. A u Poletu je djelovala
grupa pop-glazbenih kritičara – Tomislav Wruss, Borislav
Knežević, Ivan Molek, Mladen Vukmir i drugi – i pokuša-
vali smo pop-glazbi i popularnoj kulturi u širem smislu prići
na drugačiji, možda ozbiljniji način od onoga što se moglo
čitati kod rock-kritičara poput Glavana i Vrdoljaka. Gotovo
svi smo došli s Filozofskog fakulteta i uglavnom nam je rad
u omladinskoj štampi bio zanimljiviji od fakulteta. No, tamo
smo ipak dobili uvid u kulturne teorije, iako je najveći dio
toga došao samoobrazovanjem, vlastitim istraživanjem, pa
i čitanjem tih časopisa.
maroje mrduljaš — U to vrijeme većina tvojih tekstova je
o medijskoj kulturi i pop-kulturi, manje o vizualnim umjetno-
stima. ¶ dejan kršić — Pop-glazba danas nije više centralno maroje mrduljaš — You studied art history and ethnog- kolegice iz whw-a i danas reći kako mrzim suvremenu umjet- holders of similar views in Ljubljana or Zagreb, Novi Sad, Banja
mjesto kulturne identifikacije kao što je bila za moju generaciju. raphy, and I remember you from the 1980s thanks to your nost. Nije to baš istina, ali sam prilično kritičan. Luka recognize each other and connect through them. And, in
U ono doba, s punkom i novim valom, glazba je bila intenzivno articles on pop culture in Quorum that were exceptionally borut vild — Neizbježno je da si usput zahvatio i pop-art... Polet, there was a group of pop music critics, Tomislav Wruss,
povezana s drugim domenama kulture, osobito s dizajnom. interesting because you dealt with it problematically, in a ¶ dejan kršić — S time sam se još ranije bavio. Na fakultetu Borislav Knežević, Ivan Molek, Mladen Vukmir and others, and
Preko omotnica ploča ulazili smo i u svijet dizajna. Ja sam dio te broader social context. This approach fit in with the time je edukacija stala s 1945. godinom, najdalje bi tek spomenuli we tried to approach pop music and popular culture in the
generacije koja je već prošla i T. Rex, Bowieja i cijelu tu progre- when one spoke more intensively about postmodernism apstraktni ekspresionizam. Pop-art tamo nije bio relevantna broader sense in a different, perhaps more serious way from
sivnu scenu i odjednom dođe punk koji ima zanimljive aspekte, in Zagreb, especially in cultural magazines that were both umjetnost. Možda je ljubav prema pop-artu i takvoj estetici what could be read from rock music critics such as Glavan and
ali taj oblik bunta nije bio naša priča. U to vrijeme otkrivam stare thematically and theoretically diverse, syncretic. Litera- dijelom došla i kroz priču oko veze Andyja Warhola i Factoryja Vrdoljak. We almost all came from the Faculty of Humanities
albume Velvet Undergrounda, ali onda postaje izuzetno važna ture, theory, pop culture; it was all packed in one. ¶ dejan s Velvet Undergroundom, Lou Reedom. and Social Sciences and, largely, the work in the youth press
novovalna scena s bendovima poput Talking Headsa i Joy Divi- kršić — At that time, the production of magazines here was maroje mrduljaš — Je li te već tada zanimao odnos kapitala was more interesting for us than the faculty. However, there
siona ili elektro-popom. Naravno, tu su i Kraftwerk i Brian Eno. extremely rich. Pitanja, Quorum, Republika, the Belgrade Delo, i pop-arta? ¶ dejan kršić — U ono doba nismo možda toliko we were still given insight into cultural theories, although,
Između ostalog, riječ je o glazbi koja se gradi s nekim tipom or Marksizam u svetu hugely affected my generation. All these razmišljali o kapitalu koliko o medijima. Warhol i umnožavanje for the most part, that came from self-education, our own
teorije. Njihovo djelovanje je refleksivno, promišlja uvjete svog magazines and newspapers, Polet and Studentski list, Start slika, ali i Walter Benjamin te otkriće McLuhana su na mene research, even from reading these magazines.
vlastitog postojanja. U odnosu na sve to, radovi tada domi- and later Mladina, profiled a specific audience. I think we miss imali velik utjecaj 1980-ih. U dizajnerskom, ali i teorijskom maroje mrduljaš — At that time, the majority of your
nantnih domaćih dizajnera i umjetnika kasnog modernizma i that today; the availability of material on the Internet cannot smislu, podjednako mi je bilo važno kako McLuhan i dizajner articles was about media culture and pop culture, less about
stilskog postmodernizma djelovali su razmjerno dosadno. Tek compensate for some aspects of cultural reception. Magazines Quentin Fiore pristupaju mediju knjige. Njihova kombinacija visual arts. ¶ dejan kršić — Pop music today is no longer
naknadno sam u nekima prepoznao nešto zanimljivo, mada će belong to a particular cultural space, then Yugoslavian, so slike i teksta bila je jedinstvena i inspirativna. the central place of cultural identification as it was for my

160 oris, broj 103, godina 2017. oris, number 103, year 2017 DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Intervju DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Interview 161
 U slučajevima mojih kritičkih
intervencija nikad nije riječ o
čisto estetskom sudu i formalnim
problemima oblikovanja, nego o
značenju, politici i ideologiji
In the case of my critical
interventions it is never about a
purely aesthetic judgment and
formal issues of design, but about
meaning, politics and ideology
maroje mrduljaš — Je li ulazak u dizajn išao kroz tekst ili
su tekstovi išli paralelno s dizajnom? ¶ dejan kršić — Moj
prvi radni susret s rudimentarnim dizajnom događa se u novi-
nama izviđačke čete. U ono su vrijeme i škole često imale svoje
novine pa i tamo nešto kreneš raditi, zatim odeš u Polet i tamo
pišeš, učiš i radiš različite stvari; u nekom trenutku treba nešto
odnijeti u Vjesnikovu tiskaru – ako te to baš zanima ubrzo ti
povjere i da prelomiš neku stranicu. I korak po korak uđeš u sve
faze publisitičke produkcije. Rad u redakciji je izuzetno važan i
za socijalizaciju, razmjenu ideja i utjecaja. Zapravo su redakcije
sl-a i Poleta bile čudne kombinacije različitih pogleda i gene-
racija i za razumijevanje njihove pozicije ključna je hibridnost.
Kroz ličnosti starijih novinara i urednika u redakcijama trajali su
odjeci ideja 1968., anarhizma ili onoga što se onda još nazivalo
kontrakulturom, koji su nas mlađe suradnike, koji smo uglav-
nom pisali o kulturi, politizirali. S jedne strane, propitivala se
vlast, a s druge strane, većina ideja je bila više lijevo od same
birokratizirane vlasti. To je zapravo taj paradoks jugoslavenske
omladinske i tzv. alternativne scene.
borut vild — Dakle, taj paralelni put pisca i dizajnera nepre-
kinuto traje od samog početka. ¶ dejan kršić — Boris Lju-
bičić mi je jednom rekao: Kolega, morate se odlučiti, ne ide to
tako; ostat ćete vječni diletant. No, ja ne mogu stalno proi-
zvoditi iste stvari, treba mi poticaj s drugih strana. Mjesecima
samo dizajniraš, pa ti onda opet dođe želja da bi nešto napisao
162 oris, broj 103, godina 2017.
generation. At that time, with punk and new wave, music
was extensively linked to other domains of culture, especially
design. Through record envelopes we entered the world of
design as well. I am part of that generation that already went
through T-Rex, Bowie, and all that progressive scene, and then
suddenly came punk that had interesting aspects, but that
form of rebellion was not our story. At that time, I discovered
old albums of Velvet Underground, but then the new wave
scene became extremely important, with bands such as Talk-
ing Heads and Joy Division, or electropop. Of course, there
were also Kraftwerk and Brian Eno. Among other things, it was
about the music that was built with some type of theory. Their
activity was reflective; it contemplated the conditions of their
own existence. In relation to all that, the works of the then
dominant local designers and artists of late modernism and
stylistic postmodernism seemed relatively boring. It was only
later that I recognized something interesting in some of them,
although, even today, my colleagues from the whw (What,
How & for Whom curatorial collective) will say that I hate
contemporary art. It is not really true, but I am rather critical.
borut vild — It is inevitable that, along the way, you also
encompass pop art... ¶ dejan kršić — I dealt with that even
earlier. Back in college, the education stopped with 1945; they
would perhaps only mention abstract expressionism. Pop art
was not a relevant art there. Perhaps the love of pop art and
such aesthetics partly came through the story about the con-
nection between Andy Warhol and the Factory with Velvet
Underground, Lou Reed.
maroje mrduljaš — Were you already then interested in
the relationship between the capital and pop art? ¶ dejan
kršić — At that time, we did not think perhaps that much
about the capital, but about the media. Warhol and the
multiplication of images, but also Walter Benjamin and the
discovery of McLuhan had a big impact on me in the 1980s.
In the design, but also in theoretical sense, for me, it was
almost equally important how McLuhan and Quentin Fiore
approached the medium of the book. Their combination of
image and text was unique and inspiring.
maroje mrduljaš — Did the entering into the field of design
go through text, or did texts go in parallel with the design?
¶ dejan kršić — My first working encounter with rudimen-
tary design occurred in the newspaper of a boy scout troop. At
that time, schools also often had their own newspapers, so you
would start to work on something there; then you would go
to Polet, and then write something there, and you would learn
and do different things along the way. At some point, someone
would need to take something to the Vjesnik printing house,
oris, number 103, year 2017
Naslovnica časopisa Quorum, Cover of the Quorum magazine,
rz rk ssoh, Zagreb, 1988. rz rk ssoh, Zagreb, 1988
i tako prelaziš iz jednog u drugo. A u međuvremenu se zabav-
ljam fotografijom ili kolažiranjem zvuka. Za moje dizajnerske
principe, ali i općeniti način djelovanja, važna je i rana fascina-
cija onim što grubo možemo nazvati fluxusom, dakle – demo-
kratizacija umjetnosti, ne bijela kocka i unikatnost slikarstva,
nego da radiš papiriće, fotokopije, novinice, fanzine i to je ta
umjetnost za koju sam smatrao da je važna i karakteristična za
današnje doba i svijet medija. Taj element montiranja, kolaža,
povezivanja slike i teksta meni je osnovni princip, zato je dizajn
kojim se bavim uglavnom oblikovanje knjiga i časopisa. Volim
uvijek pokušati raditi drugačije. Kod novina Galerije Nova, na
primjer, skoro svaki od brojeva je različit – druga pisma, pri-
jelom, veličine, formati. Za mene je to način da si rad učinim
zanimljivim, ali i izraz stava da forma proizilazi iz sadržaja.
borut vild — Ima li to veze s onim što često napominješ
– da ste vi posljednja generacija autodidakta? Da je vama
dizajn samo jedan od načina iskaza koji nije primaran, nije
dominantan, nego samo još jedan od jezika kojem ste se
priučili. ¶ dejan kršić — Manjak konzistentnog teorijskog
znanja ili literature o dizajnu je svakako bio važan. U krajnjoj
liniji, tada još nije ni bilo tih velikih knjiga i monografija o stra-
nim dizajnerima. Bili su nam dostupni neki katalozi, povijesne
DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Intervju
Ovitak ploče Rijeka
– Paris – Texas,
Helidon, fv Založba,
1987., dizajn: Dejan
Kršić, fotografija:
Jani Štravs
Rijeka – Paris –
Texas lp record
cover art, Helidon,
fv Založba, 1987,
design: Dejan Kršić,
photograph: Jani
Štravs
and if you were interested, they would soon entrust you with
some page layout. And, step by step, you would get familiar
with all stages of journalistic production. The work in the edi-
torial section is extremely important for the socialization too,
the exchange of ideas and influences. Actually, the editorial
boards of Studentski list and Polet were strange combinations
of different views and generations, and the hybridity is crucial
to understand their position. The echoes of the ideas of 1968,
of anarchism, or of what was then still called counterculture,
survived through the personalities of older journalists and edi-
tors in editorial boards. Those echoes politicized us, younger
collaborators, who were mainly writing about culture. On the
one hand, the authorities were questioned, but on the other
hand, most of the ideas were more left than the bureaucratic
authorities themselves. This is actually that paradox of the
Yugoslav youth and the so-called alternative scene.
borut vild — So, that parallel path of a writer and a
designer has lasted uninterrupted from the very start. ¶ dejan
kršić — Boris Ljubičić once told me, My colleague, you have
to decide, it does not work that way, you’ll remain an eternal
dilettante. Well, I cannot constantly produce the same things,
I need stimulus from other sides. For months, you only design,
but, then again, you get the desire to write something, and
so you go from one thing to another. And in the meantime,
I’m having fun photographing or collaging sound. What is
DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Interview 163
 important for my design principles, as well as for the general
method of action is also an early fascination with what we
can roughly call fluxus, therefore – the democratization of
art, not a white cube and uniqueness of painting, but that you
do little papers, photocopies, little newspapers, fanzines; it
is that art that I thought was important and characteristic
of the present age and the world of media. That element of
editing, collage, linking of image and text is for me the funda-
mental principle; it is why the design that I do is mostly about
designing books and magazines. I always like to try to do it
differently. In the case of the newspaper of Galerija Nova,
for example, almost every single issue is different – diverse
scripts, layout, sizes, formats. For me, this is a way to make
my work interesting, but also an expression of the view that
form follows content.
borut vild — Does this have to do with what you often
mention – that you are the last generation of autodidacts?
That, for you, design is just one way of expression that is not
primary, not dominant, but only another language that you
got familiarized with. ¶ dejan kršić — The lack of consistent
theoretical knowledge or literature about design was certainly
important. After all, at that time, there were none of these
great books and monographs on foreign designers. The only
thing available to us were some catalogues, and history books
with lousy black and white reproductions. The whole story
about design monographs began as late as the 1990s. It was
only then that we started to thoroughly examine the current
practice, but also to explore the history of design.
maroje mrduljaš — For younger designers in the 1980s
record covers were very important, and pop culture also
brought with it a certain worldview. ¶ dejan kršić — I
always say that, out of all local designers, Mirko Ilić, who was
immersed in pop culture, then had the greatest influence on
us, not Ivan Picelj nor Boris Ljubičić. Through the design of
record covers, we also learned about the history of art. That
is how we encountered Warhol and Richard Hamilton. Peter
Novine Galerije Nova knjige s lošim crno-bijelim reprodukcijama. Cijela priča o diza- Saville relied on the futuristic typography of Fortunato Dep-
br. 25, vodič kroz
jnerskim monografijama počinje tek 1990-ih. Tek tada poči- ero. There were always these small keys that were extremely
izložbu Umjetnost
uvijek ima posljedice, njemo temeljitije sagledavati aktualnu praksu, ali i istraživati important. We read Camille Gray’s book, The Great Experi-
whw i agm, Zagreb, povijest dizajna. ment: Russian Art, but the record cover of Kraftwerk’s The
2010.
maroje mrduljaš — Za mlađe dizajnere 1980-tih bili su Man-Machine was crucial for the love of El Lissitzky. A number
Nova Gallery važni omoti albuma, a i pop-kultura je sa sobom nosila i of English designers of the time, David King, Neville Brody,
Newspapers no. 25, određeni svjetonazor. ¶ dejan kršić — Uvijek kažem da je Malcolm Garrett, and Peter Saville investigated or referred
guide for the exhibition
od domaćih dizajnera na nas tada najviše utjecao Mirko Ilić to the legacy of the avant-garde. Retrospectively, we have a
Art Always Has Its
Consequences, whw & koji je bio uronjen u pop-kulturu, a ne Ivan Picelj ili Boris Lju- constructed image of the avant-garde, but, at that point, for
agm, Zagreb, 2010 bičić. Kroz dizajn omota ploča učili smo i povijest umjetnosti. us, that was still a rather open area where everything mixed,
Tako se susretneš s Warholom i Richardom Hamiltonom. Peter connected, and it was not quite clear where the boundaries
164 oris, broj 103, godina 2017. oris, number 103, year 2017
Saville se oslanjao na futurističku tipografiju Fortunata Depe-
roa. Uvijek su ti sitni ključevi bili izuzetno važni. Čitali smo
knjigu Ruski umjetnički eksperiment Camille Gray, ali omot
Krafwerkova Die Mensch Machinea bio je ključan za ljubav
prema El Lissitzkom. Niz engleskih dizajnera tog doba, David
King, Neville Brody, Malcolm Garrett i Peter Saville istražuju ili
se pozivaju na naslijeđe avangarde. Mi retrospektivno imamo
konstruiranu sliku avangarde, ali nama je u tom trenutku to
bilo još dosta otvoreno područje u kojem se sve miješa, pove-
zuje i nije ti baš jasno gdje su granice futurizma, neoplasti-
cizma, konstruktivizma, suprematizma, dadaizma... Možda je
tako i bilo bolje.
maroje mrduljaš — Mislim da starija generacija koncep-
tualnih umjetnika nije bila predmet tvojih tadašnjih interesa.
Jesu li vas dotakli lokalni novomedijski i intermedijski ekspe-
rimenti kasnih 1970-ih i 1980-ih? ¶ dejan kršić — Za video-
radove Dalibora Martinisa i Sanje Iveković sam rano saznao
zato što smo još kao gimnazijalci, osim rada u novinama, visili
u Kino klubu i Galetinom Multimedijskom centru u Student-
skom centru. Išli smo i u Podroom, izložbe gsu-a ili Galerije
sc-a. Ali taj tip domaće konceptualne umjetnosti često mi je
bio previše siromašan, nedovoljno dizajniran. Tek par Man-
gelosovih radova koje sam negdje vidio ostavilo je snažan
dojam, no pravi osjećaj prepoznavanja i bliskosti izazvat će
tek Laibach i skupine oko nsk-a. Nama su tada nove tehno-
logije još uvijek bile mit i tek ograničeno dostupne. Dobar dio
mojih tekstova iz 80-ih je ustvari zamišljanje, pa i idealizacija
onoga što će se dogoditi kad sredstva za rad konačno budu
u rukama umjetnika-proizvođača. Zato je fotokopiranje bilo
izuzetno važno, to je bio prvi medij gdje si mogao bez nekog
posebnog tehničkog znanja, pripreme i relativno jeftino odmah
nešto proizvoditi, umnožavati, uvećavati, distorzirati sliku,
kolažirati; sam postupak je davao specifičnu zrnatu strukturu.
borut vild — Kad si napisao prvi manifest? Taj manifes-
tni ton postat će jedna od konstanti u tvojem radu. ¶ dejan
kršić — To je valjda i karakterna mana. Taj pompozni, mani-
festni duh i referiranje na povijesne avangarde dio su duha of Futurism, Neoplasticism, Constructivism, Suprematism, Novine Galerije Nova
br. 21/22, povodom 11.
vremena 1980-tih, kad nakon filma Splav Meduze otkrivamo Dadaism were... Maybe it was for the better.
Istanbulskog bijenala Od
pojave kao što su Zenit i zenitizam, ali se povremeno javljaju i maroje mrduljaš — I think the older generation of con- čega čovjek živi?, whw i
kasnije, na primjer u uvodnicima Arkzina. Tekstove pod kolek- ceptual artists was not the subject of your interest then. Did agm, Zagreb, 2009.
tivnim pseudonimom Nova Evropa i nep, aktivne u periodu you come in contact with local new media and intermedia
Nova Gallery
od 1984. do početka 90-ih, uglavnom sam ja kolažirao. Tim experiments in the late 1970s and 1980s? ¶ dejan kršić — I Newspapers no. 21/22,
manifestnim tekstovima pokušavam samome sebi detektirati learned early about the video works of Dalibor Martinis and published on the
occasion of the 11th
i objasniti što se to događa s novim tehnologijama i medij- Sanja Iveković because, still as high school students, in addi-
International Istanbul
skim promjenama za koje osjećamo da su tu, samo se još nisu tion to the work in newspapers, we hung around in Kino Biennial What Keeps
jasno manifestirale. U vizualima sam surađivao s fotografom Klub and Galeta’s Multimedia Center in the Student Center. Mankind Alive?, whw &
agm, Zagreb, 2009
Janijem Štravsom, u videu s Gordanom Brzović koja je tada We also frequented Podroom, exhibitions at the Gallery of
DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Intervju DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Interview 165

Vizualni identitet imala pristup tehnologiji. Krenulo je s fanzinom, koji nije bio
Galerije Nova, 2003.,
punkerski, nego razmjerno dizajniran, imao je i warholovski
posjetnice
element, a sve u tehnici fotokopiranja. Pojedina izdanja su
Visual identity for se razlikovala, tako da je nešto od materijala dodano, nešto
Nova Gallery, 2003,
reciklirano, a nešto izbačeno. A kako sam radio u novinama,
business cards
postojala je i mogućnost da povremeno nešto od tih tekstova i
vizualnih materijala ubacim u Polet, Pitanja i osobito Quorum.
Prvi tiskani fanzin objavljen je kao prilog u Pitanjima.
borut vild — Moja je teza da bolji grafički jezik od jezika
avangarde još uvijek nemamo. Stare tehnologije su otišle,
nove se stvaraju, ali nema novog jezika; mi smo još uvijek
negdje između. Tvoj put je sve vrijeme potraga za jezikom. Ta
nemogućnost da govoriš novim jezikom usmjerava te prema
jedinom koji je još uvijek relevantan – jeziku avangarde – i
on se proteže, čvrsto ga se držiš i ne stidiš ga se. ¶ dejan
kršić — S jedne strane, pokušavaš se držati tih principa; s
druge strane, nikad nije i ne može biti doslovno ponavljanje.
Uvijek balansiraš.
maroje mrduljaš — U 1990-ima se događa moment nove
slobode, ali i nesigurnosti, s obzirom na to da se pojavljuju
166 oris, broj 103, godina 2017.
Contemporary Art or the Student Center’s Gallery. But for me,
that type of local conceptual art was often too poor, insuf-
ficiently designed. Only a couple of works by Mangelos that
I saw somewhere left a very strong impression; it was only
Laibach and the groups around the Neue Slowenische Kunst
(nsk) that would cause a real sense of recognition and famili-
arity. For us, then, new technologies were still a myth and
available only to a limited degree. A good part of my texts
from the 1980s was actually imagining and even idealization
of what would happen when working tools finally came under
control of artists-producers. Therefore, the photocopying was
extremely important; it was the first medium where, without
any special technical knowledge and preparation and relatively
cheaply, you could immediately produce something, copy,
enlarge, distort the image, collage; the procedure itself gave
a specific granular structure.
borut vild — When did you write your first manifesto?
That manifesto tone would become one of the constants in
your work. ¶ dejan kršić — This is probably a character flaw
too. That pompous, manifesto spirit and referring to histori-
cal avant-garde are part of the Zeitgeist of the 1980s when,
after the film, Splav Meduze (The Raft of the Medusa), we
discovered the phenomena such as Zenit and Zenitism, but
they occasionally occured later as well, for example, in the
editorials of Arkzin. The texts under the collective pseudonym
of Nova Evropa and nep, active in the period from 1984 until
the early 1990s, were mostly collaged by myself. With these
manifesto texts I tried to detect and explain to myself what
was going on with new technologies and media changes that
we felt were here, but not yet clearly manifested. In the visuals
I collaborated with photographer Jani Štravs, in the video with
Gordana Brzović who, at the time, had access to the technol-
ogy. It started with a fanzine, which was not a punk one, but
relatively designed; it also had a Warholesque element, all that
in the technique of photocopying. Particular issues differed in
the way that some of the material was added, some recycled,
and some thrown out. And since I worked for the newspapers,
there was also a possibility for me to occasionally include some
of these texts and visual material in Polet, Pitanja, and espe-
cially in Quorum. The first printed fanzine was published as a
supplement to Pitanja.
borut vild — My thesis is that we still do not have a better
graphical language than the language of the avant-garde.
Old technologies are gone, new ones are being created, but
there is no new language; we are still somewhere in between.
All that time, your path has been a search for language. That
inability to speak a new language directs you to the only one
oris, number 103, year 2017
novi dizajnerski i produkcijski alati. Za te alate nema pri-
premljene metodologije, nego razvijaš novu estetiku koja
reagira na nove mogućnosti koje se otvaraju. ¶ dejan
kršić — Dapače, pokušavaš ih nategnuti do krajnosti. To ispi-
tivanje je vjerojatno uvijek karakteristika prve faze korištenja
neke nove tehnologije. Dizajnerski, rezultati možda nisu savr-
šeni, ali meni su eksperimenti važniji od besprijekorne forme.
Kad danas gledam stranice Arkzina, mislim da smo mogli raditi
bolje, pa i inovativnije, no postojao je moment nevještosti, a i
neosviještenosti, jer si toliko uronjen u to što radiš. Valjda se
nismo mogli odmaknuti od sebe samih.
maroje mrduljaš — Ako se poznaje povijesni kontekst onda
se zna da ta estetika ne dolazi niotkuda, nego da je poslje-
dica istraživanja tehnoloških mogućnosti. No, jednako važno,
radi se i o invenciji organizacije sadržaja u tiskanom mediju.
Ispituje se što se može napraviti sa spreadovima i narativom
časopisa, a u kontekstu integracije tehnologije, dizajna i
sadržaja. U Arkzinu si u poziciji da imaš kontrolu nad sva tri
elementa, ali mijenjale su se produkcijske okolnosti. ¶ dejan
kršić — Mijenjala se tehnologija pripreme i način na koji se
radilo i komuniciralo unutar redakcije. Kad sam došao u Arkzin,
ekran je bio 12 inča, rezolucija nikakva, a fontovi katastrofa. Ali
DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Intervju
Novine Galerije Nova
br. 15, Continental Drift,
whw i agm, Zagreb,
2008., ovitak cd-a
Gallery Nova
Newspapers no. 15,
Continental Drift, whw
& agm, Zagreb, 2008,
cd cover
that is still relevant, the language of the avant-garde, and it
stretches, you stick to it firmly, and you are not ashamed of it.
¶ dejan kršić — On the one hand, one tries to stick to those
principles; on the other hand, it has never been nor can it be
a literal repetition. You are always balancing.
maroje mrduljaš — In the 1990s, there is a new moment
of freedom, but also of uncertainty due to the emergence of
new design and production tools. For these tools there is no
prepared methodology, but you develop a new aesthetic that
responds to new opportunities that are opening up. ¶ dejan
kršić — Indeed, you try to stretch them to the extremes.
That exploration is probably always a feature of the first stage
of use of some new technology. In terms of design, the results
may not be perfect but, for me, experiments are more impor-
tant than impeccable form. When I look at the pages of Arkzin
today, I think we could have done everything better, even more
innovative as well, but there was this moment of ineptness,
of unawareness as well, because you are so immersed in what
you are doing. I guess we could not move away from ourselves.
maroje mrduljaš — If one is familiar with the histori-
cal context, then one knows that this aesthetic does not
come out of nowhere, it is rather the result of research of
DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Interview 167
 Stalno smo govorili da
drugačiji sadržaj traži drugačiji
izraz. Forma i funkcija – uvijek
se vratimo na to
važno je bilo da možeš sam sve napraviti, ne treba ti više foto-
slog. Program za oblikovanje stranice, PageMaker, u početku je
bio jako grub; kasnije je to postalo i sofisticiranije. S akumulaci-
jom iskustva i znanja dizajn zadnjih nekoliko brojeva još uvijek
je u dekonstruktivističkom ključu, ali pročišćeniji.
maroje mrduljaš — Radikalni dizajn je i označitelj opo-
zicijskog stava. Dizajn postaje politička izjava. ¶ dejan
kršić — Stalno smo govorili da drugačiji sadržaj traži dru-
gačiji izraz. Sad to zvuči malo pojednostavljeno, ali ustvari
je istina. Forma i funkcija – uvijek se vratimo na to. Razlozi
zašto se nešto radilo u Arkzinu često su bili obrnuti nego
u tradicionalnoj redakciji gdje novinski urednik dolazi s
određenom temom. Mi bismo razmišljali o tome što zanimljvo
izgleda, što unutar rasporeda stranica u novinama donosi dina-
miku. Nakon spreada ispunjenog gustim tekstovima mora doći
nešto drugo, npr. fotoreportaža. Bilo je jako važno što je s vre-
menom olakšana mogućnost upotrebe fotografija. Najednom
ne moramo sve rješavati slovima. Tu kreće poigravanje s naru-
čivanjem reportažnih fotografija, uloga dizajnera kao urednika
i interakcija s fotografkinjama. Dvotjedni ritam u novinskoj fazi
Arkzina utjecao je i na način rada. Interakcija i smišljanje toga
što ćemo publicirati bili su sasvim demokratični. Puno tekstova
su ljudi sami donosili, bez ikakve narudžbe. Uglavnom, nije
bilo nekih birokratiziranih kolegija, nego smo svakodnevno
živjeli taj projekt.
borut vild — Vi ste potpuno simultani s dizajnerima koji
su u svijetu pratili tehnološku revoluciju, ali i dekonstruk-
ciju modernističkog iskaza. Arkzin u nekim trenucima sliči na
carsonovski tip prijeloma, jednu anarhiju i istraživanje. Ali ja
u njemu uvijek više prepoznajem Emigre, strategiju i način na
koji su radili ljudi oko Rudyja VanderLansa i Zuzane Licko, ne
samo kroz dizajn nego i tekstove. ¶ dejan kršić — Željko
Serdarević je ranih 90-ih donio prve brojeve Emigrea, ali tu su
i drugi utjecaji: Neville Brody, radovi Vaughana Olivera za dis-
kografsku kuću 4ad, novovalno naslanjanje na avangardističke
jezike, ali u novoj tehnologiji. Emigre je bio izuzetno važan i
zbog tekstova, promišljanja dizajna. Dizajn Arkzina je kao ona
168 oris, broj 103, godina 2017.
We kept saying that different
content required different
expression. Form and function,
we always go back to that
technological possibilities. But, equally important, it is also
about the invention of the organization of content in print
media. One examines what can be done with the spreads and
the narrative of the magazine, in the context of the integra-
tion of technology, design and content. In Arkzin, you were in
a position to have control of all three elements, but produc-
tion circumstances were changing. ¶ dejan kršić — What
was changing was the technology of prepress and the way
one worked and communicated within the editorial board.
When I came to Arkzin, the screen was 12 inches wide, the
resolution was dreadful, the fonts were a disaster. But the
important thing was that you could do everything by yourself,
you did not need the phototypesetting anymore. The page
design program, PageMaker, was initially very rough; it later
became more sophisticated. With the accumulation of knowl-
edge and experience, the design of the last few issues was still
in the deconstructivist key, but more refined.
maroje mrduljaš — The radical design is also a signifier of
the oppositional attitude. Design becomes a political state-
ment. ¶ dejan kršić — We kept saying that different content
required different expression. Now it sounds a little simplistic
but, in fact, it is true. Form and function, we always go back
to that. The reasons why something was done in Arkzin were
often opposite to a traditional editorial board where a news-
paper editor comes with a particular topic. We would think
about what looks interesting, what brings dynamics within the
arrangement of pages in the newspaper. A spread filled with
dense texts should be followed by something else, for exam-
ple, a photo story. It was very important that, over time, the
possibility of using photographs was facilitated. Suddenly, we
did not have to solve everything with a type. There came the
playing with ordering the report photographs, the role of the
designer as editor and the interaction with female photogra-
phers. The biweekly rhythm in the newspaper stage of Arkzin
also affected the working method. The interaction and com-
ing up with what we would publish was totally democratic. A
lot of texts were brought by people themselves without any
oris, number 103, year 2017
priča da je David Byrne čitao o novom bandu Joy Division, pa
je napravio pjesmu The Overload koja bi trebala zvučati kao
ono što je zamišljao čitajući tekst, no rezultat ustvari nema
veze sa stvarnim zvukom Joy Divisiona. Tako smo i mi asimili-
rali različite utjecaje, ali često na osnovi veoma malo stvarnih
podataka. Carson je, naravno, bio hit u jednom trenutku, mada
je to više područje Nedjeljka Špoljara koji je neko vrijeme radio
s nama u Arkzinu. Nikad nismo imali neki strogo definiran stil.
Ako je Špoljar htio raditi carsonovski, prljava slova, nama je to
bilo odlično. Ni tu nije bilo nikakve cenzure.
maroje mrduljaš — U drugoj fazi Arkizn se mijenja, poprima
magazinski format. ¶ dejan kršić — Razlozi su, naravno, bili
ekonomski. A onda je ta nužda rezultirala i nekim zanimljivim
stvarima. U Arkzinu je uvijek postojala ideja da o društveno-
političkim stvarima progovorimo drugim jezikom. Format
timelinea smo izmislili da se vidi da smo locirani u vremenu,
a da ne moramo trčati objavljivati vijesti o događajima. Sanja
Iveković je donijela svoj projekt Gen xx. S druge strane, to je
već kraj 90-ih, tako da je i politička urgentnost drugačija, pa
smo pokušali direktnije intervenirati u problem konzervati-
vizma hrvatske kulture. Zbog toga smo i krenuli s izdavanjem
knjiga. Hrvatska kultura je knjiška kultura, samo književnici
se cijene, a novine nestaju i zaboravljaju se. Razvojem tehno-
logije i priprema knjiga je postala pristupačna, mogao si sam
to prelomiti, relativno jeftino se moglo tiskati i tako direktno
intervenirati u tu kulturu. Buden je mogao bilo što pisati u
Arkzinu, gotovo nitko nikad nije javno reagirao na to, ali kad
to izađe kao knjiga ima drugu težinu, postane referenca pa se
o tome piše, citira, ozbiljnije se shvaća.
maroje mrduljaš — U kojoj mjeri je u Arkzinu odabir naslova
bio strateški, a koliko spontan, na tragu demokratičnosti, pa i
slučajnosti? ¶ dejan kršić — Kombinacija jednog i drugog.
Strani prijevodi bili su vezani za teme koje su se provlačile
kroz novine. To je, na primjer, stalna veza sa Žižekom. Marx je
bio potpuno strateški i vezan je za godišnjicu Komunističkog
manifesta. Kustoski kolektiv whw nastat će kao nusproizvod
ideje da uz knjigu napravimo neki medijski širi projekt. Pozvali
smo Natašu Ilić i nakon dvije godine, 2000., realiziran je pro-
jekt velike izložbe. Na kraju je to ispalo dobro jer se fino poklo-
pio društveni trenutak pada tuđmanizma i mogućnosti da se
povežu različiti nivoi organizacije: kustoski kolektiv koji je dje-
lovao kao tim unutar Arkzina, novi prostor net.kulturnog kluba
MaMa i institucija hdlu, gdje je tadašnja direktorica Nevena
Tudor bila otvorena za takvu vrstu suradnje. Takva mogućnost
nije postojala ni ranije, a izgleda ni kasnije. Collective Creativity, katalog Collective Creativity, exhibition
izložbe i zbornik tekstova, catalogue and reader, Kunsthalle
maroje mrduljaš — Što, kako i za koga, povodom 152. Kunsthalle Fridericianum, Kassel Fridericianum, Kassel &
obljetnice Komunističkog manifesta, po kojoj je whw i dobio & Revolver, Frankfurt, 2005. Revolver, Frankfurt, 2005
DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Intervju DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Interview 169
 Fanzin Arkzin, primjer
stranica iz 1997. godine
(lijevo) te naslovnice
iz 1996. i 1997. godine
(desno), dizajn:
Dejan Kršić, Dejan
Dragosavac Ruta
Arkzin fanzine, example
of the pages from 1997
(left), and covers from
1996 and 1997 (right),
design: Dejan Kršić,
Dejan Dragosavac Ruta
ime, jedna je od prvih velikih izložbi koja je kustoski autorski
projekt. U to vrijeme radi se i Salon mladih na velesajmu, koji
organiziraju kustosice iz tad još nepostojećeg Kontejnera.
Što tebe zanima u tom projektu, izložba kao medij? ¶ dejan
kršić — Spontano smo se podijelili da se ne miješam u kustoski
dio. Zajednički konceptualno promišljamo projekt i publikacije:
whw bi dostavile materijal, ja bih to dizajnirajući često malo i
uređivao, vidio kako mogu neki vizual povezati s nekim tekstom.
Kustoski tekstovi imaju manifestni ton, pogotovo u toj ranoj fazi
važnih projekata: Komunistički manifest, Broadcasting, Tesla,
Bakić, moraš to malo monumentalno i pompozno najaviti, pa bih
ja tu dopisivao, davao neke sugestije. Ali samim postavljanjem
izložbi uglavnom se nisam bavio, osim projekata gdje dokumen-
tarni materijal treba dizajnirati i pretvoriti u izložbu, kao što je
bilo s Bakićem, s didaktičkom izložbom apstraktne umjetnosti,
tzv. classroom segmentom Istanbulskog bijenala i sl.
maroje mrduljaš — Bijenale u Istanbulu je uključivao jedan
iskorak – koncept izložbe se diseminira u javni prostor putem
vizualnog identiteta koji ima svoju poruku. To je istraživanje
proširenja medija dizajna i oglašavanja i korištenja njihovih
170 oris, broj 103, godina 2017.
orders. Generally, there were no bureaucratic board meetings,
but we lived that project on a daily basis.
borut vild — You were completely simultaneous with
designers who, out in the world, followed the technological
revolution, but also the deconstruction of modernist expres-
sion. At some moments, Arkzin looked like a Carsonesque
type of layout, an anarchy and research. But I always recog-
nize more Emigré in it, the method and strategy that peo-
ple around Rudy VanderLans and Zuzana Licko used in their
work, not only through design but also through texts. ¶ dejan
kršić — In the early 1990s, Željko Serdarević brought the first
issues of Emigré, but there are other influences as well, Neville
Brody, the works of Vaughan Oliver for the record label 4ad,
a new-wave leaning on avant-garde languages, but in a new
technology. Emigré was also extremely important because of
their texts and design contemplation. The design of Arkzin is
like that story saying that David Byrne read about the new
band, Joy Division, so he wrote a song titled The Overload,
which should have sounded like what he pictured when read-
ing the text, but the result actually had nothing to do with the
oris, number 103, year 2017
potencijala. ¶ dejan kršić — U Zagrebu smo taj pristup
već rudimentarno imali u sklopu izložbe Što, kako i za koga,
s plakatima koji nisu imali iscrpne informacije o izložbi, nego
se najednom pojavi crvena šlajfna na zidu te citati Frederica
Jamesona i Slavoja Žižeka. Za većinu drugih projekata budžeti
jednostavno nisu bili dovoljni za takve akcije. Bijenale je projekt
u kojem se zahtijeva snažna vizualna prisutnost u gradu. Orga-
nizatori su nam dali template za službeni plakat s gomilom
logotipova sponzora. No, iz samog koncepta izložbe dalo se
izvući alternativu. Kao paralelnu gerilsku akciju oglašavanja
predložio sam plakate s kratkim Brechtovim citatima na kojima
nema službenog vizualnog identiteta. To se organizatorima
svidjelo i pristali su. Tako imamo standarni plakat s logoti-
povima i seriju gerilskih, a oni su ipak povezani dizajnerskim
jezikom, tipografijom, bojom i jasno se vidi da su dio cjeline.
Uvijek je zanimljivo kad vidiš kako tvoj dizajn funkcionira unu-
tar konteksta, ti plakati s Brechtom su po ulicama Istanbula
lijepljeni uz plakate za disco-klubove…
borut vild — To je logičan put – Arkzin, pa prelazak u whw,
u polje gdje se baviš umjetnošću koja je politički osviještena.
DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Intervju
real sound of Joy Division. Similarly, we assimilated various
influences as well, but often based on very little actual data.
Carson was, of course, a hit at one point, although it is more
the area of Nedjeljko Špoljar who spent some time working
with us in Arkzin. We never had any strictly defined style. If
Špoljar wanted to work in a Carsonesque style, dirty letters, for
us, it was great. Here as well there was no censorship.
maroje mrduljaš — In the second phase, Arkzin changes,
it takes the magazine format. ¶ dejan kršić — The reasons
were, of course, economic. And then that necessity resulted
in some interesting things too. In Arkzin, there was always the
idea of speaking about social and political issues in another
language. We invented the format of timeline so one could
see that we were located in time, and that we did not have to
hastily publish the news about events. Sanja Iveković brought
her project Gene xx. On the other hand, it was already the
end of the 1990s, so the political urgency was different as
well, and we tried to intervene more directly in the issue of
conservatism in Croatian culture. That is why we started with
the publication of books. Croatian culture is a bookish culture,
DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Interview 171
 To je taj manifestni iskaz koji je jasan, čist, precizan; nemaš
umjetni prelazak u novi kontekst. ¶ dejan kršić — Nikad ne
znaš je li to sreća ili namjera. Jedan od najzanimljivijih aspekata
našeg rada za Bijenale je upravo proizašao spontano iz diza-
jnerskog problema da se izložba vizualno pretvori u publika-
ciju. Poslužili smo se aproprijacijom brechtovske metode kako
bismo rekli sve o izložbi. Napravili smo niz info-grafika koje
govore o strukturi same izložbe, o njezinim problematičnim
momentima: o tome koliko je umjetnika iz istočnih zemalja,
iz Europe, iz Sjeverne Amerike, koliko muškaraca, koliko žena,
kako su strukturirane financije... Tako smo pokazali da umjet-
nost nije samo ono što je izloženo, nego i jedan ogroman kul-
turni pogon, kapitalistička mašinerija koja se iza svega valja pa,
na primjer, vidiš da najveći dio budžeta odlazi na iznajmljivanje
prostora i osiguranje, a da umjetnici dobiju sitniš.
borut vild — Taj Bijenale se podudara s prodorom mapira-
nja kao umjetničkog postupka, gdje se opet raspoznaje tvoja
ažurnost. Od početaka pa do danas unutar tvog vidokruga
stalno je politika, pokušaj da definiraš društveno okruženje,
i kada pišeš i kada dizjaniraš, pretpostavljam i kada predaješ.
Boris Buden,
Barikade 2, Arkzin
d.o.o., Zagreb,
1998., naslovnica
knjige
Boris Buden,
Barikade 2, Arkzin
d.o.o., Zagreb,
1998, book cover
172 oris, broj 103, godina 2017.
only literary authors are respected, and newspapers disappear
and are forgotten. With the development of technology, the
preparation of books became more available; you could do the
layout yourself, you could print it relatively cheaply, and thus
directly intervene in that culture. Buden could write almost
anything in Arkzin, almost no one ever publicly reacted to it,
but when it came out as a book, it had a different weight to
it, it became a reference, so one wrote about it, quoted from
it, took it more seriously.
maroje mrduljaš — To what extent was the choice of
titles strategic, and to what extent spontaneous, along the
lines of democracy, and even randomness in Arkzin? ¶ dejan
kršić — A combination of both. Foreign translations were
related to themes that ran through the newspaper. That was,
for example, the continuous connection with Žižek. Marx was
entirely strategic, and was related to the anniversary of The
Communist Manifesto. The whw curatorial collective would
emerge as a by-product of the idea to make a project, wider
in terms of media, along with the book. We invited Nataša Ilić
and, after two years, in 2000, the project of a large exhibi-
tion was executed. In the end, it worked out well because it
coincided nicely with the social moment of the fall of Tudj-
manism and the opportunity to connect different levels of the
organization: the curatorial collective that acted as a team
within Arkzin, a new space of the Net.Culture Club MaMa, and
the institution of the Croatian Association of Artists (caa),
where the then director Nevena Tudor was open to this kind
of cooperation. Such a possibility existed neither before, nor
later, it seems.
maroje mrduljaš — The What, How and for Whom, on the
occasion of the 152nd anniversary of The Communist Mani-
festo, which is how the whw got its name, was one of the first
large exhibitions which was a curatorial and authorial project.
At that time the Youth Salon at the Zagreb Fair emerged,
organized by the curators from the then still nonexistent
Kontejner. What is it that interests you in this project, the
exhibition as a medium? ¶ dejan kršić — We spontaneously
split up so I would not get involved in the curatorial part. We
all together thought about the project and the publications
conceptually; the whw would deliver the material, I would
design it and often edit it a bit, I would try to see how I could
link a visual to a text. Curatorial texts have that manifesto
tone, especially at that early stage of important projects: The
Communist Manifesto, Broadcasting, Tesla, Bakić, you’ve got
to announce it a bit monumentally and pompously, so I would
often add something, give some suggestions. But I was gen-
erally not involved in the very staging of exhibitions, except
oris, number 103, year 2017
for projects where documentary material had to be designed Renata Salecl, Protiv
ravnodušnosti, zbirka
and converted into an exhibition, such as with Bakić, with the
eseja, urednik Nebojša
didactic exhibition of abstract art, the so-called Classroom Jovanović, Arkzin,
segment of the Istanbul Biennial, and the like. Društvo za teorijsku
psihoanalizu i whw,
maroje mrduljaš — The Biennial in Istanbul included a
Sarajevo i Zagreb,
step forward; the concept of the exhibition is disseminated 2002., naslovnica
in the public space through a visual identity that has its own knjige
message. This is a research into the extension of the media
Renata Salecl, Protiv
of design and advertising and the use of their potential. ravnodušnosti, essay
¶ dejan kršić — In Zagreb, we, rudimentary, already had collection, edited by
Nebojša Jovanović,
that approach within the exhibition What, How and for Whom
Arkzin, Društvo za
(whw), with posters which did not have detailed information teorijsku psihoanalizu
about the exhibition, but suddenly, there was a red column on & whw, Sarajevo and
Zagreb, 2002, book
the wall and the quotes of Fredric Jameson and Slavoj Žižek.
cover
For most other projects, budgets were simply insufficient for
such actions. The Biennial is a project which requires a strong
visual presence in the city. The organizers gave us a template
for the official poster with a bevy of logos of sponsors. But,
from the very concept of the exhibition, one could draw the
alternative. As a parallel guerrilla advertising campaign, I pro-
posed posters with short Brecht quotations in which there
was no official visual identity. The organizers liked it and they
Slavoj Žižek, Repeating
agreed. So we have a standard poster with logos and a series
Lenin, Arkzin d.o.o.,
of guerrilla campaigns, and they are nevertheless connected Zagreb, 2001.,
¶ dejan kršić — Mislim da to proizlazi iz onog interesa za
by design language, typography, colour, and it is clear that naslovnica knjige
popularnu kulturu, da ona nije nešto što nastaje u zrakopra- they are part of a whole. It is always interesting when you see
znom ili aseptičnom prostoru, nego je uključena u odnose how your design works within the context, those posters with Slavoj Žižek,
Repeating Lenin,
moći, političke borbe. Kad jednom usvojiš taj pogled, sve poči- Brecht were glued in the streets of Istanbul next to posters Arkzin d.o.o., Zagreb,
nješ analizirati na taj način. Vjerojatno je to u početku bilo for disco clubs... 2001, book cover
instinktivno. Od 80-ih se promovira priča o kraju ideologija. A
u tom trenutku mi smo tek otkrili revoluciju i avangardu. Ne da
nema ideologija, nego prihvaćamo suprotnu ideju da je i sam
postmodernizam političan. Da ne spominjem da su 90-te bile
izuzetno plodno polje da se ta političnost potencira, umjesto
da ju gurneš u zapećak i držiš se samo formalne estetike.
borut vild — Sad si ti na Odsjeku za dizajn vizualnih komu-
nikacija Akademije u Splitu u poziciji onog koji kreira pro-
gram, onog koji određuje kako i koje će se znanje prenositi.
¶ dejan kršić — To je problem s kojim se mučim. Ne želiš se
ponavljati, sa svakom generacijom pokušavaš neku drugačiju
metodu. Ne postoji definitivna varijanta kako bi neki dizajn
trebao izgledati. Jezici su ravnopravni, samo treba shvatiti kad
koji od njih funkcionira. Pokušavaš studente osloboditi i to
je najveći izazov, da oni sami pokušaju naći i definirati sebe.
Potičem studente da istražuju; važno je da u par godina studija
naprave dovoljan broj grešaka i eksperimenata i da na osnovi
toga kasnije mogu raditi nešto drugo, vraćati se na ta iskustva.
DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Intervju DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Interview 173
Plakati iz grafičke
mape objavljene
povodom 11.
obljetnice rada
whw-a, 2010.
Posters from
the portfolio of
prints published
on the occasion
of the whw’s 11th
anniversary, 2010
Pokušavam ih tjerati na čitanje. Teorija, refleksija i autoreflek-
sija su u dizajnu nužni. Ne očekujem da svi dizajneri pišu knjige
o povijesti dizajna, ali moraju promišljati tu povijest, poznavati
lokalnu situaciju da bi mogli graditi vlastiti jezik, da ne bi morali
kretati ispočetka, kako bi mogli napraviti korak dalje. Poku-
šavam im dati strukturu, narativ što se tu događalo, kako su
promjene dizajna povezane s društvenim promjenama, kapita-
lom. Ne pokušavam na mala vrata propagirati svoju ljevičarsku
teoriju, nego jednostavno dizajn uvijek moraš promatrati u
društvenom, ekonomskom i političkom kontekstu.
maroje mrduljaš — U kojem momentu se krećeš inten-
zivnije baviti poviješću dizajna u Hrvatskoj, temom koja te
zaokuplja do danas? ¶ dejan kršić — Kako je hdd počeo
razvijati svoje izložbene djelatnosti, zvali su me da pišem
tekstove za godišnje izložbe, pa sam morao shvatiti što se
tu događa. Znamo da ima svega nekoliko knjiga o povijesti
domaćeg dizajna; tad ih je bilo još manje. Već u Arkzinu smo
se bavili pokušajem detektiranja vlastite pozicije, između
ostalog kroz intervjue s Mirkom Ilićem, Feđom Vukićem, Mila-
nom Trencom, Erminom Međedovićem... Već tu je postojao
interes i potreba za dokumentiranjem i mapiranjem dizajna.
Ali, za ozbiljnije bavljenje domaćom povijesti dizajna upravo
174 oris, broj 103, godina 2017.
borut vild — This is a logical path, Arkzin, then the transi-
tion to the whw, to a field where you produce art that is
politically aware. It is that manifesto statement that is clear,
clean, precise, you do not have an artificial transition to a
new context. ¶ dejan kršić — You never know whether it is
luck or intention. One of the most interesting aspects of our
work for the Biennial emerged spontaneously from a design
problem of how to visually convert the exhibition into a pub-
lication. We made use of the appropriation of the Brechtian
method in order to tell everything about the exhibition. We
made a series of infographics that spoke about the structure
of the exhibition itself, about its problematic moments: about
how many artists there were from Eastern countries, from
Europe, from North America, how many men, how many
women, how the finances were structured. We thus showed
that art was not only that what was exhibited, but also a huge
cultural drive, a capitalist machinery rolling behind all that, so
that, for example, one can see that the greatest part of the
budget goes to the leasing of space and security, and that
artists only get small change.
borut vild — That Biennial coincides with the penetration
of mapping as an artistic process, where again one recognizes
oris, number 103, year 2017
je problem rada na monografiji Mirka Ilića bio ključan. Ilić je
bio dobar materijal za početak takvog rada: ima dvije karijere,
staru jugoslavensku i novu američku, i obje je čitateljima tre-
balo kontekstualizirati.
borut vild — Mapiranje kulturnih fenomena započinje
još s projektom Leksikona yu mitologije u Arkzinu. ¶ dejan
kršić — Leksikon yu mitologije je zamišljen krajem 1989.,
unutar Starta. Političke turbulencije bile su sveprisutne i
zanimala nas je povijest suvremene, popularne, medijske i, u
krajnjoj liniji, modernističke kulture. S Ivanom Molekom pokre-
nuo sam ideju stvaranja leksikona mitologije jugoslavenske
popularne kulture. Mitologije baš zato da uključuje i element
individualnih pripovijesti, a ne samo povjesničarski hard facts.
U trenutku kad nastaje u njemu nema ništa jugonostalgično,
nego želja da se dokumentira i mapira svijet tada nedoku-
mentirane i potiskivane popularne kulture. Projekt je krenuo
s jednom idejom, ali je dobio novo značenje zato što se cijeli
društveni kontekst u međuvremenu zarotirao.
borut vild — Ilićeva monografija je na našim prosto-
rima metodološki jedinstvena po svom kolažnom pristupu.
¶ dejan kršić — Htio sam da to bude neka vrsta interak-
tivnog odnosa u kojem knjiga postupno nastaje taloženjem
DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Intervju
your up-to-dateness. From your beginnings until today, poli-
tics has always been within your sight, an attempt to define
the social environment, both when you write and when you
design, I guess when you teach as well. ¶ dejan kršić — I
think it stems from that interest in popular culture, that it
is not something that occurs in a vacuum or aseptic, but is
included in the power relations, political struggles. Once you
adopt this view, you begin to analyze everything in this way.
It was probably instinctive in the beginning. From the 1980s,
the story about the end of ideology has been promoted. And
at that moment, we only discovered the revolution and the
avant-garde. Not that there are no ideologies, but we accept
the opposite idea that postmodernism itself is political. Not
to mention that the 1990s were a very fertile ground for this
politicality to be emphasized, rather than to push it into the
background and to keep to only formal aesthetics.
borut vild — You are now at the Department of Visual
Communications Design at the Arts Academy in Split, in a
position of the one who creates the program, the one who
determines how and which knowledge will be transferred.
¶ dejan kršić — This is the problem that troubles me. You do
not want to repeat yourself, you try a different method with
each generation. There is no definitive variant of what some
design should look like. Languages are equal; one only has to
understand when which of them works. You try to free stu-
dents, and this is the biggest challenge, that they themselves
try to find and define themselves. I encourage my students
to explore; it is important that in a couple of years of study
they make a sufficient number of mistakes and experiments,
and that, based on that, they can later do something else, and
come back to these experiences. I try to make them read. The
theory, reflection and self-reflection are necessary in design. I
do not expect all designers to write books about the history of
design, but they must reflect on that history, they must have
a knowledge of the local situation in order to be able to build
their own language, to not have to start from the beginning, to
be able to make a step forward. I try to give them a structure,
a narrative of what happened here, how the design changes
are associated with social changes, capital. I am not trying to
propagate my leftist theory through the back door, it is just
that you simply have to always observe design in the social,
economic and political context.
maroje mrduljaš — At what point did you start to deal more
intensely with the history of design in Croatia, the theme
that occupies you to this very day? ¶ dejan kršić — As the
Croatian Designers Association started to develop their exhi-
bition activities, they called me to write texts for their annual
DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Interview 175
 Dejan Kršić,
Mirko Ilić: Strip-
ilustracija-dizajn-
multimedija, agm i
Profil International,
Zagreb, 2008.,
naslovnica knjige
(lijevo) te primjeri
stranica (desno)
Dejan Kršić,
Mirko Ilić: Strip-
ilustracija-dizajn-
multimedija, agm &
Profil International,
Zagreb, 2008,
book cover (left),
and page examples
(right)
slojeva, i tako je možete i čitati. Postoji moj tekst, tuđi duži
tekstovi, Mirkovi citati, citati drugih autora, potpisi ispod
slika i naravno same slike. Gusto isprepleteno tkivo gdje se
vizualni materijal prožima s tekstom i tako nastaje dinamika
cijele knjige. I tu vidimo utjecaj arkzinovskih layera u dizajnu,
ali na smireniji način. Monografija je baš projekt dizajnera kao
vizualnog urednika koji istovremeno piše, uređuje i oblikuje
knjigu. Sad se mučim radeći na knjizi o Mihajlu Arsovskom,
koji je ponešto teži problem, jer kod Ilića je barem mate-
rijal bio relativno dostupan, njegov opus ima jasnu logiku
razvoja, dijelom sam ga pratio u realnom vremenu i možeš
lako razvijati priču. U nekim elementima obje knjige imaju
blisku strukturu i metodu nastanka, ali mislim da će knjiga
o Arsovskom ipak biti drugačija jer pokušava njegovo djelo
prikazati kroz razvoj dizajna u tom periodu i kreativan dijalog
sa suvremenicima.
borut vild — Pišući tekstove o raznim temama izgradio si
instrumentarij gdje možeš kritičku analizu primijeniti na bilo
koje polje kulture. ¶ dejan kršić — Ne objavljujem kontinui-
rano, nego kad naiđem na nešto što me kao problem podbode,
pa se onda upetljam u film, kao sa Zvizdanom, ili arhitekturu,
povodom Bijenala 2010. To su teme koje su tangencijalno
povezane i s dizajnom, popularnom kulturom i s općom kul-
turnom scenom u Hrvatskoj, za koju se osjetiš pozvanim da
nešto komentiraš kad već nitko drugi neće. Dakle, isto što sam
radio još 80-ih u Poletu ili Startu u rubrici Etika i estetika.
maroje mrduljaš — Pišeš o temema u onim trenucima
kada one postanu simptomatske, kada se mogu povezati
176 oris, broj 103, godina 2017.
exhibitions, so I had to figure out what was going on there.
We know that there are only a few books on the history of
domestic design, there were even fewer then. Already in Arkzin
we dealt with trying to detect our own position, among other
things, through interviews with Mirko Ilić, Feđa Vukić, Milan
Trenc, Ermin Međedović... Already here there was an interest
and a need for documenting and mapping design. But it was
the problem of working on the Mirko Ilić monograph that was
crucial for serious dealing with the local history of design. Ilić
was a good material to start such a work, he had two careers,
the old Yugoslav and the new American, and both needed to
be contextualized for readers.
borut vild — The mapping of cultural phenomena begins
already with the Lexicon of yu Mythology project in Arkzin.
¶ dejan kršić — The Lexicon of yu Mythology was conceived
at the end of 1989, within the Start magazine. Political turbu-
lences were ubiquitous, and we were interested in the history
of contemporary, popular, media and, ultimately, modernist
culture. With Ivan Molek, I initiated the idea of creating a lexi-
con of the mythology of Yugoslav popular culture. A mythol-
ogy precisely because we wanted it to contain the element
of individual stories, and not just historiographic hard facts.
In the moment when it occurred, there was nothing Yugo-
nostalgic in it, but rather the desire to document and map the
world of then undocumented and suppressed popular culture.
The project started with one idea, but was given a new mean-
ing because the whole social context rotated in the meantime.
borut vild — The Ilić monograph is methodologically
unique in our region for its collage-like approach. ¶ dejan
kršić — I wanted it to be some sort of interactive relation-
ship in which the book is gradually formed by the deposition
of layers, and that is how you can read it as well. There is my
text, longer texts from others, Mirko’s quotes, other authors’
quotes, captions under the images, and, of course, the images
themselves. A densely interwoven tissue where the visual
material is permeated with the text, and thus the dynamics
of the whole book is created. Here as well we see the impact
of Arkzinesque layers in the design, but in a calmer way. The
monograph is precisely a project of a designer as a visual editor
who also writes, edits and forms the book. I am now arduously
working on a book about Mihajlo Arsovski, who is a somewhat
more difficult problem, because in the case of Ilić, at least the
material was relatively accessible, his work has a clear logic
of development, I followed him partly in real time, and you
can easily develop the story. In some elements both books
have similar structure and method of creation, yet I think that
the book about Arsovski will be different because it is trying
oris, number 103, year 2017
 Potrebno je živjeti to show his work through the development of design in that
samouvjereno…
period and the creative dialogue with the contemporaries.
gledajući, novine
objavljene povodom borut vild — By writing articles on various subjects you
54. Venecijanskog have built the instruments where you can apply critical analy-
bijenala, 2011.
sis to any field of culture. ¶ dejan kršić — I do not publish
One Needs to Live continuously, but only when I come across something that
Self-Confidently... provokes me, and then I entangle myself in a movie, as with
Watching,
Zvizdan (The High Sun), or with architecture on the occa-
newspapers
published on the sion of the 2010 Biennale. These are the topics that are also
occasion of the 54th tangentially associated with design, popular culture, and the
Venice Biennale,
general cultural scene in Croatia, for which you feel compelled
2011
to comment on something, when no one else will. Ergo the
same thing I was doing already in the 1980s, in Polet or Start,
in the column Ethics and Aesthetics.
maroje mrduljaš — You write about topics when they
become symptomatic, when they can be related to the con-
text. When the discussion starts in the wider public domain,
then a discourse about the project or the work can be ana-
lyzed, and not the work itself. ¶ dejan kršić — You defined
it better than I could. I am interested in the element of local
cultural dynamics in which something occurs as a symptom.
Based on the critical apparatus, you can manage in almost
any area. Even if you may not have the expertise, you know
enough to be able to position a cultural product within the
s kontekstom. Kada krene rasprava u široj javnoj domeni social and ideological parameters. Although every aesthetic
onda se može analizirati diskurs o projektu ili radu, a ne judgment is always also ideological, in the case of my critical
rad sâm. ¶ dejan kršić — To i bolje definirao nego što bih interventions it is never about a purely aesthetic judgment and
ja mogao. Zanima me element lokalne kulturne dinamike u formal issues of design, but about meaning, politics and ideol-
kojoj se nešto javlja kao simptom. Temeljem kritičke apara- ogy. So, for example, the text on Zvizdan is not a film review,
ture možeš se snaći na gotovo bilo kojem području. Čak i ako but an attempt to critically examine the political significance
možda nemaš specijalistička znanja, znaš dovoljno da kulturni of the film. I would not dare to write whether something is a
proizvod možeš pozicionirati unutar društvenih i ideoloških good film or architectural project in the craft and purely formal
parametara. Mada je svaki estetski sud uvijek i ideološki, u sense. After all, I often avoid quality assessment when it comes
slučajevima mojih kritičkih intervencija nikad nije riječ o čisto to the works of design too, I am interested in structural rela-
estetskom sudu i formalnim problemima oblikovanja, nego o tionships and connections, the social meaning in a particular
značenju, politici i ideologiji. Tako, na primjer, tekst o Zvizdanu context. It was the study of popular culture as well as design
nije filmska kritika, nego pokušaj da se kritički sagleda političko that taught me that value is not inscribed in the work itself
značenje filma. Ne bih se usudio pisati o tome je li nešto u once and for all, and that the author is not a guarantee of the
Plakat iz grafičke zanatskom i čisto formalnom smislu dobar filmski ili arhitek- meaning of the work. Social institutions determine the value
mape objavljene
povodom 11. tonski projekt. Uostalom, često i za radove dizajna izbjegavam of cultural works, and that is why cultural production is an
obljetnice rada ocjenjivanje kvalitete, zanimaju me strukturni odnosi i veze, arena of ideological struggle over meaning.
whw-a, 2010. društveno značenje u određenom kontekstu. Upravo me je
Poster from the proučavanje popularne kulture, pa i dizajna, poučilo da vrijed-
portfolio of prints nost nije jednom zauvijek upisana u samo djelo i da instanca
published on autora nije nikakav jamac značenja djela. Društvene institucije
the occasion of
the whw’s 11th određuju vrijednost kulturnih djela i upravo zato je kulturna
anniversary, 2010 proizvodnja poprište ideološke borbe oko značenja.

178 oris, broj 103, godina 2017. oris, number 103, year 2017 DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Intervju DEJAN KRŠIĆ, Interview 179