peed | stuaviserds to “N Sj FALL 2008 hy Sea pees HOWARD BE eae tii CHAYKIN ~] INTERVIEW & DEMO pay her Wa. TUTENSTEIN: ANIMATOR PLLA STEPHENG ‘MIKE MANLEY pens Ce1) VAs THE PROFESSIONAL “/ HOW-TO" MAGAZINE ON COMICS & CARTOONING WWW. DRAWMAGAZINE.COM FALL 2008 VOL. 1, NO. 16 iitorin lief © Miche! Manley Designer ric Nolen-Weethington Publishor# John Morrow Logo Design ¢ John Costenza ‘Grealaton Ditecoe » Bob Brodsky for Cookiosoup Prodedions Proofreader Eric Nolen Wethington Transcription» Stoven Tica Front Cover llestration * Howard Chaykin Front Cover Color © Gln Whitmore ‘DRAW! 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Summer went fa always seems to after the 4th of July. Many, like myself, will be returning to school and getting back down to business—and this issue of DRAW! is getting down to biz-nez, too. The usual thanks go out to my main men, Bret, Eric and John for putting in a lot of solid work on this issue and helping it get out the door and into ‘your hands, Thanks to Glen Whitmore for his great color job on this issue's cover illo done by Mr. Chay! A funny story. Howard was one of ‘the first pros I met many years ago at the local Chicago Comic-con, long before it was absorbed into the Wizard empire. Howard was running hard ‘with his ground-breaking work on American Flagg atthe time, and was a bit more cocky than he is now. Like ‘many wanna-bes at that show, I was hauling my work around in my portfo- Tio and showing my work to people in hopes of getting the big break. Howard was one of them. He was brisk and pretty harsh in his crit of my work, and to be hhonest, I didn’t like it much. It was sort of like an old newspaper guy ripping the young. turk for dumb mistakes, But looking back, he was right, even though at the time it stung a bit. I did, however, take his words to heart when I was back at home doing new samples ‘which next year atthe same con landed me work. I's important for the young artist or student to take in a good, honest crt, even if you don't like it (and who does?), because that is the best way to see the mistakes and weaknesses and to, more importantly, learn how to correct them, Another funny story. Jay Stephens almost made me have a car crash. Years ago, back ‘when Jay was doing his book, Land of Nod, he would do these funny litle strips with his character, Captain Rightful. Well, after buying my haul of comics from the local shop, I hopped in my car and was driving back home. The comics 1 bought lay on the seat next to me in the back and a few fell out as I drove. On top of the comics that ipped out was the Land of Nod comic, and the back cover was a strip featuring Captain Rightful. and it caught my eye as I was driving—I know, I shouldn't have been looking, at anything but the road, That strip was so funny that I started reading it for a second and laughing at how funny’ it was—and almost rear-ended somebody! SCREEEEECH! So let this be a lesson: Always put comics in the trunk. On a serious note, a big thanks to both Howard Chaykin and Jay Stephens for taking time out of their busy schedules to do their interviews with DRAW’, and we'll see you around Christmas time! Go DRAW! some comics! Mike E-mail: mike@drawmagazine.com Website: www.drawmagazine.com Snail mail: PO Box 2129, Upper Darby, PA 19082 2 DRAW! * FALL 2008Poe AR DD Seeeny KIN F rom his earliest days in the comic business, to his exit into television and then his plunge back into comies, Howard Chaykin has continued to be one in love with the medium of comics. Few artists of his generation have been able to embrace change, yet stay true to the heart of their visions as Howard has. But no matter what medium he hap- pens to be working in, or whether he’s writing, drawing, or both, for Howard it all comes down to telling a good story in the best way possible. nterview conducted by Mike Manley ‘and transcribed by Steven TiceOne of the reasons I wanted to interview you for the ‘magazine is becanse you're one of the few artists who have ‘worked in a lot of various parts of the industry, not only in comics asa writer and an artist, but you've done illustration, aw've worked in TV— HE: Tjust can't hold a job. [Mie foes] _And one of the thrusts of the magazine is to show people that cartooning, or the kind of skills you acquire to be a 200d storyteller, a good comio book artist, can Teally apply to a lot of other vennes. You don’t have to just drawe Capteta America, y’anow? And even out of your eneration, whied T feuess includes artists like Walt Simonson and [Bernie] ‘Wrightson, guys like that, youre one of the artists who really has, think, soit of stood ont as having done a ‘wide variety of material HC: Well, Ihave a limited attention span, and I need to keep myself interested, so Twas always looking for something else to do, but never burning a bridge. 1 ‘was able to spread myself a litte thinner than a Jot of ys, not out of any pro- foundly evolved skills, but mare out of interest than anything else, When pou were starting cut, Tinow you apprenticed, with guys like Gil Kane and Neal Adams. HE: Gray Morrow and Wallace Wood, as well Wow, Fim jeal- cst Inthe case of someone like Adams, who came real- ly from the commercial ar, background, di hat infla- ence your thinking &s you ‘were working with him? HC: No, not really. I was unaware of Neals background when Tmet him, All knew about Jhim was he was this incredibly hot comic book attist, He Was also a very charismatic figure in his time, and there were a lot of guys who ‘were sort of floating around him, guys who ‘were both part of his orbit and guys who ‘weren't really, but were sort of sucked up info the maelstrom. And we all sort of hung out, crossbred. A lot of it started atthe First Fridays, which began at Roy Thomas’ place and then sort of ended up af Jeff Jones’ place, That where I met Neal, 1 4 DRAW! «FALL 2008 Pendls. think. We all palled around, and there was a lot of fellowship. ‘We all promised ourselves that we would never become like the older generation, hating each other's guts, and of course we all did. [lars] Well, one of the things ake fom looking ‘over your career, and its funny you mentioned it, your career is not like a bot of the older guys, The old-time cartconists who sort of had their gig, and they worked diligently, and then one day the companies said, “We no longer need your services.” and then many became hitter old alcoholics and drank themselves death. That seems to be the story for, unfortunately, a lot af old cartoonists, But you've jumped around—you're doing this, youre doing that, Youe not letting yourself stagnate as far as ‘your career, but also creatively. Your generation of guys ‘who came in were also interest Not thatthe older generation ‘wast’, but that scemed to bea Jot more of the thrust of, say, Jeff Jones and Kalua. 1950, Tused to not talk about that, but now, with Wikipedia and everything. else, ererpbody can find ‘out anything, so there's no point in lying, Unless you 90 in and edit it yourself, (iaughs] HC: I was delighted to note thal somebody sctually went in there ‘and cleaned mine up. The First time T read ‘my Wikipedia biogrs- phy and was, lke, “What the fF? Who is this guy?” And thea Tame back to it about six months 2) ater, when somebody pointed it out to me, and 1 said, “Wow, somebody came in and artually cleaned it up and got it all ight” Now to the point ‘where I check my IMDb database stuff, and they've even got informa- tion in there that Ido nat share publicly: Somebody that knaxws ‘me well went in there and eleaned it up. Wow,HEE Pointing ut that Ihave an adopted father and am illeitt- rate, stuf? Hike that, which T was kind of impressed by. At any tale, one of the things, in the 1960s, we all were jest so som and self-ighloons about our sui. And then, of coarse, in maturity TPve cone to wealizejost what spoiled brats we were—just com pletely snmg, obnoxious holes who never really were grateful forthe wodd that our fathers had saved for us. We had this idea thatthe word was our oyster and we could do anthing, and as a result of that we did, I mean, oar capacity forthe great commer cial at from Neal, the fine art from Jeff, the level of pretension ‘we allowed ourselves was enormous. And my one problem, I abvays fel, is that [wish —I first came to southern California in the eat 19705 as a hither, and I wish Pd stayed but I could not atthe time translate what I did for living a5 a coms book autist into making, career in shew business. Really? HCs If 'd come ont earlier, my career would have ended earier, bot I think wonld have had a bigger and better career ‘When you went out there, you didn't imagine that you could get ajob working at Disney or— HC: I wouldn't have wanted to do that. I mean, I never worked in animation, T work in live action, T never worked on high- ‘quality shows, but I had a good career, and I couldn't visualize doing that in the early "70s. Doing production art? HC: That a guy with my skillset could conceivably make ati ing in television, Do you follow me? Right, yeah. HCs It wasn’t until came out to California on a permanent ‘basis in the mid-1980s, when American Flagze had sort of got- ten me presentation, that | was able (o sec how I could use ‘what I was doing in comics and translate it into the show busi- ness, So it was a big change for me. Timagi some of that bac} ‘going into that world, you could bring 0 comics, right? HGS Well, to a certain extent. The magazine you're doing is called DR4¥?, and I’mof the belief, and I believe this whole- heartedly thot the artis i a profoond participant in the wziting process, for good or bad, particularly in comics, becanse of the ‘element of narrative provided to the artist, and what the artist has to then bring to the narrative, believe the story is every= thing —good, bad, or indierent—and that the artist's job is to make a writer Look good. And I work with writers who ane ter- tific; mona wl right now. Pvc been really blessed these past couple of years, becanse I decided to start working as an artist, ‘with other writers, while I’m also writing for other people, drawing other people's sets, and I'm writing stu for myself to draw. I'm spreading npself in a different ditection now. ‘ve been working with Mare Guggenheim prety steadily, and Mare’ ust fabulous. Mare, I've said more than once, is one of the most attst-fiiendly waiters 've ever worked with 4 explo of Howard's kayous. Jason Aaron on that Hoiverine job we did was astonishing ‘work, and T'm working with Garth Ennis, and Garth is also fan- tastic. So I've been really blessed. He has an understanding of hhow rch to expect of an artist, One of the things I always tell ‘young guys who are starting out as artists isto be prepared to bbe doing a lot of the writing. By that I don’t mean the text, 1 ean the subtext and content, Does that make sense? Yes HC?I gave you a long answer fora short question Laughs] Well, we like those long, ansoens, I think first became aware of your work on the “Dominie Fortune” stuff that you were doing when I was in high school. Iwas very impressed by that at the tim, because it soemed there was a lot of critical thinking in the way you played with the page and everything, which, of course, you continned to really develop, especially when you got to American Flage, and how you Were incorporating the sound effects and everything. Was that some thing that you were sort of building towards? Were you study- ing certain aitists that were leading yon to— HC: What it comes down to is that I never subscribed, from my earliest, (0 the idea that the only way to do iC was the grid, T ean, there are formalists, and there are anti-formalists, and the formalists object to what I've done. To 2 profound extent, was ‘rying to introdace—again, in retrospect, I don’t think I was, DRAW! + FALL 2008 5consciously looking for something other to do, but when found out that 1 was interested in that, I then actively sought out stuff. Tmean, looking at everything from movie posters of the "20s, the way magazines were laid out, movie posters—just dif- forent piture-making ideas. ‘There's guy named Richard Sool Wurman, who was a great graphic designer who designed the New York subway sys- tem map and the map for the Underground in London. He pub- lished a number of books back in the *80s and '90s called ‘Access, hich were a reinvention of the concept of travel tides. Each one of them son of reinvented how information ‘was presented, with charts, flowcharts, and illustration breaking up text. Twas fascinated by how he was able to tell a story using technique that was alien and unfamiliar to me, and that got me thinking about different ways to go, different directions to find other storytelling elements. And, toa geal exten, the Flagg material, and to an even greater extent, the Time’ sft is a reflection of that investigation and discovery. About what age would you say this, I guess you would call, cttical thinking happened? Where you're aetually not just (ying to, as you said, work in the standard six- ot nine-[panel]} ‘atid to tell the story, you're starfing to bring in some outside influences, and you're starting to really itellectualize your ere~ ative process, your layout process, ina very specific direction HC: Tid say probably in ny late 208. ‘Okay, But you got into the business when you were, ‘what, in your early 203, ight? Ht Yeah, 1d say in the late °70s, maybe in °76 and °80, in that range, because I staited drawing Flagg in June of "82, and began publishing it the next year. I was well on my way in that regard, Interestingly enough, when I set out to do Flagg, I had been aveay from comics fora number of years—I was in paper- back art—beeanse I had been driven ont of the business by a hostile relationship with one of the editors-in-chief. Back when that could aetually happen in the busi- ross. I donb if people get driven ont that way anymore, HCz1 took it as a wakeup call I wally did. 1 found it an upset ting and embarrassing situation to be eteated for me, and T went away and did paperback covers for a eouple of years. T was asked bby Mike Gold a first, iff was interested in doing 3 book with him, and it changed my life doing the Fagg stuff. Frankly, when set out to actually draw the Flagg stuff, T spent six months both «developing the design system that ultimately became the look that Tused in the book and mich of the work that’s followed since, and looking at what had beeu well reecived—both ctitical- {ly and commercially —in comies, for the time T had been away, ‘Because I don’t believe you can work in ¢ vacuum ‘No, And things had really been changing, too. A lot of people who are in their 20s now have no idea, but, as kid grow. ‘ng up in the 70s, you have your pre-Star Fars and your postStar Fears. When Star Wars came out, i wally started changing the way everything was advertised. I really had a big effect on cornmeal art, design. I mean, it ally started changing things quite bit, 6 DRAW! + FALL 2008 pete ae Howard tolls the story of are goa, Laster Young. IFTADEA eae HOMO ON HE: And alot ofthat I think had to do with the fact thatthe people ‘who were behind sch things were guys wo had grown up With pulps, scene fiction, and comes. That proces was already in play inthe ealy*708 when alot ofthe guys who wee at directors at the advertising agencies had themselves come ut of comic book fan- ddom.I mean, ke’ fice i, Woody did the Dr Pepper campaign and totally serewed it up, andthe AD, who was a big EC fan, brought Jack Davis in and made Jack Davis this enomnonis presence by hav ing him sor of sve the ass ofthe agency atthe lat minute So much ofthe groundwork: was being laid at that point by those says. But you look at Spielberg, you look at Lucas —although Spielbere’ nota comics fan, Lncas is And toa great extent, what they did was inroduce their boyhood eatinsiasm nto the mass culture. Now yon 2010 atelevision studio, yo goto ATV production unt, oti studio, and they've always gota guy’ who’ your biggest fan that ‘xy they hired to be a comic book know-sornething Just in general, when you go out and you meet peo- pple ata restaurant or wherever, if you say you do comics or ani- Imation, people say, “Wow! That's a cool jobt” Or they remem- ber reading some favorite conic. 1° not like you're seducing, the innocent, that whole thing is all— HC: You don’t have to apologize for not being Rob Liefeld or Daniel Clowes, one way orthe other. Depending on what kind of restaurant you were inYeah. When you were doing the paperback cavers, L remember buying, was it Swords of Heaven, Flower of Hell? HC Yeah, Well, actualy, that preceded it, That was one of those, you should pacdon the expression, “graphic” novels thst ‘was done for Heaxy Metal. I did Westerns and science fiction, a bit of romance stuff, for Dell and for Tor Did you go through hiting models and dealing with the old system? HC? Yeah, I did a conple of sessions with 2 photographer who shot for illustrators. Tt was just a great time, In the old days, when guys like Albert Dotne wete doing things, the agencies actually paid for the photography. HC T had a budget in the book job.I was budgeted for models, and photographers, and of course I did something that was incredibly unfair and illegal, which was to shoot atleast five books while Twas shooting the one that T was supposed to be doing. Laughs] You figure, well, they won't know, right? HC: Lended up getting a lot of books ont of a couple of shoots. Don't fell anybody. The statute of limitations is over, but we'll, see. I had a great time doing that ‘Obviously, you had your heroes in comics, people like Toth, bur when you started going into illustration, you're ‘acting into a different aesthetic. [ know you're 2 big fan of Bob Peak and Al Parker, and 1 know from our mntual friend Mr. ‘Vosburg that yom have a very extensive set of clippings from a lot of the famous illustrators. HC: own about 150 originals, as wel. Wowt HC: Yeah. Actnally, if had to lst my favorites, it would be Robert Faveett —T own half a dozen Fasvoetts—Harry Beckho, Herbert Paus, and Parker. The usual suspects: Parker, Fuchs, Peak: ‘You own a Sickles, oryou did fora while? Ht Actually, 've just put the Sickles up for sale, Ande Parks ‘coms the best Siekdes I've seen out there, and I keep trying to work ‘up the nerve to convince hitnto sell it, but he won't come actos. Wall, Blovins owns those space shots. HC: Whereas Ande owns one of the Westem Union ads, which are just bitchin’. 10s a beauty. The one with the riverboat gam- bler on the left side, Okay, yeah. HC: Its a great piece. Ande, if you're reading this, 'm asking. Were you buying originals to study? HC: No, no. I became a collector in the late "70s. My first piece was a Dean Cornwall drawing—a peneil drawing. It's pat ‘ofthe Bastem Airlines mural in Radio City. 've been collecting ever since. But I've always been a tear-shoet clipper. ['ve got about 30,000 tear shoets. I've got 25 feet of wall space with everything bound, collected books of everybody. So Pm a huge fun. T mean, I've got a box of stuff that’s on file that has to be gone through and looked a T guess my question is, you wete acquiring the stuff not only because you just love it snd it’s beantiful, but you were also kind of schooling yourself by studying this, as weil, right? HC: [ think thats a natural outgrowth. I mean, you can't do one ‘without the other, Think. I don’t think I was necessarily con- seiously doing that, but it certainly tuned oat to be the case. Well, you know, you have people who are fans of something, they might be fans of illustration, but are not ncees> sarily artists themselves. But, as I always call it, the hunteritracker sort of artist who goes out—I mean, you obvi ‘ously were; you would see something, you would collect it, yon ‘would take it home. You not only enjoyed looking at it, but you ‘were also studying it HC: For example, I remember very specifically draving the splash page of FYagy #1. 1 always work with other people's pic- tures surrounding me. For ecample, right now I've got a Russell oRA\ FALL 2008 7Patterson drawing above my desk, I'm looking af a Fairbun System shot of heads, and I've got several se ad igre drawings of Wolverine, because the cover of Solo #8. that’s what Pm doing visht ct jos to keep in mind maintaining the characters infesrity. And T ha 2 Faweet toa sheet, a Thunch of nomtelted 6 material draped across ry drawing tableas twas doing the splash pape ot Flagg #1. 1s jus mater of keeping the ball rolling kooping the shyt going. But remember very specifically La experiencing abit ofan epiphany 4 about Faweet’s stuff t that moment, ea ‘where, to «great extent, his design system Tbocame much clearer to mein that experi- ence, doing the drawing while I was looking at his staff. So think i’ a8 much a conseiens choice as it is an organic choice Ateiter word than “choice” an omzanic experience One of the things I've noticed about—and I'm always, frankly, quite jealous of guys from your geueration—is ‘that — HC: Why? We'e gonna die soon [lags] If you lived on the East Coast, you had the opportunity to do sort of the apprentice system, wich really doesn’t exist anymore. You could work with a guy like Gil Kane, or Neal Adams, or Wood, or Gray Motto, and I assume that, working with each one of those guys, you learned some slightly different aspect of the craft HC But Pve got assistants who I think are going through pre= cisely the same apprenticeship process that I went through, would say that that's probably due to the faet that ‘you did that, yourself. Otherwise, you might not be aware of that HC? Yon think so? 1 think s0, because, to me, part of comies was that it ‘yas a craft. You swept some guy's floor, and then he allawed ‘you to erase some pages, then he allowed you to ink a nose or some chaits in the background or something, and you moved up. And today— HC: That's precisely wheat happened, that’s what my eareer was, yeah. And today we don’t have thar becanse— HC? Well, think irs becanse the standards are so low, the guys syho should be assistants and apprentices are doing books. 8 DRAW! + FALL 2008 2010 ™ aN azo A itd Secaics [aughs] Well, that very well maybe the case with some of them, but also you just dont—in general, the industry is very different, and now we don't, as with so many vocations, have that apprentice system, which was just the way things were abvays done. It didn’t mater whether you were a printer or whatever, you started at a bottom position and you worked your way up. Now people, to use a Rob Liefeld analogy, go from being some guy on the other side of the table drawing pin-up shots to suddenly they're the next hot thing, There doesn't sccm to bea graduated process. Als, you don’t get that feeds back. When yon started ont, you were getting feedback from the editors, guys like Archie Goodwin or whoever, so when you'd take in your job, you'd get a etitique, right? You would get some fociback—what worked and what didn't, and what you could do to make your job better the mex ime, right? HC: Okay. T mean, yes and no, but go on. ‘Were you getting that, or were you only getting that sometimes? HC: Well, you have to remember that when I started out the editors, for the most part, were waiters or magazine editors who ‘were sill sticking around in the magazine business. They ‘weren't comic book fans. Iwas with my generation that comic book fans began to replace the editors, Archie was the first guy‘who had a fan background who actually was a serious editor, ‘who'l come to back to comies from fandom, after he worked at Redbook for as long as he had. And Archie also had both & ‘araphics background and a text background, Most of the guys ‘who were editing had no background whatsoever as artists, with the exception of Shelly Mayer, wha was before my time, You hhad Joe Orlando, who was my rabbi at DC. Joe was.a phenome- nally talented artist who was also really good with working tal- cut. Guys like Julie ‘Schwartz, who I adored tremendously, had incredibly parochial tastes in art His idea of the perfect artist was ‘Murphy Anderson. He did not like eccentric talent, because eceen- ticity spoke against the core of the audi- cence, from his perspec tive, And Stan [Lee] was a guy who really didn’t have a strong graphic sensibility. There weren't a lot of guys with that kind of background. ‘When Giordano ‘came in, he introduced au attists eye to the editorial, and now you've got two basi nesses, two major come panies, with a strong, artist's eye in the back= ground. You've got ‘Quesada at Marvel, who's got a strong visual sensibility, and you've got Chiarello at DC, who is just an astonishing artist in his ‘own right, So what I ‘was being criticized on by editor, justifiably so, was maintaining the narrative, keeping the story going, Which 2008 right back to what you were saying, and I ‘guess you're right, in the end, that today the storytelling has become functionally irrelevant. I's more the decorative quali- ties that are relevant, When I started becoming self-critical about and intel- lectualizing the storytelling process, I sort of looked at it as you had the Jack Kirby school, which was all about telling the story. ‘Alter th igre is inkod,Hovwerd applies 0 np-t-tone pattern onthe cot in Photoshop. SOLO Ne aND game DODOMIDS and then you had the Neal Adams school, where there was sto- rytelling, but it was mostly about these really cool sequences or shots, There was a lt of sort of perfuanerory storytelling that worked or dida’t work, but then there would be this really awe- some shot that we'd go, “Wow, that's just a fantastic drawing!” HC: Don’ toll Neal that, because Neal thinks he's one of the best storytellers in the business. Well, I think his storytelling on his ‘Batman stull was rach better than his stuif at Marvel. I think the stuff at Marvel was not nearly as snccess- fal at storytelling. It had some cool draw- ings, because I loved that uvengers stuff that be did— He: what, the Avengers and X-Men sul that he did? Yeah, 1 led the Avengers stuff, as a kid, T never really warmed as much to the Men stutl, because I was never really an X-Mon fan, Dut his Batman stuf if T go back today and look at that staff the storytelling is mich more straightforward. I don’t feel that itis the artist's ego getting in front as mach as him in service of telling the story, and just doing a ‘great job of doing that. HC: Pm guessing here, Pm patting words ink someone else's sensi ities, but I got a feeling he felt that he was come peting with Séeranko. Pm guessing here.1 rman tis is something Tvenever thought albout 1's been so long since I've seen either of those particular sefs of woos that I can't speak with any intelligence about i, but [Pm guessing that if t's as eccentsi as you say—and I don't recall ir being one or the other—it miaht very wel be that he was literale ly looking to compete with Steranko on his own terms, because Steranko was certainly an eceentric in that sens, for good or bad DRAW! FALL 2008 @Another example of Photoshop apie 2ip--tone (the wiper end dck}. Page 2of “The Last Time | Saw Pars,” rom Solo 4. SS TIT Lee ee eee ruil ‘SOLD ano aom9 DO OOMIDE Right. And it funny today, [think maybe we're so used to seeing comics, and we're so used f0 seeing whatever's the new thing coming down the pike, it's very rae when you have some- body come in that’s like a Steranko, who jurmps into the pool and just males a big splash. [ think i's maich harder today to do that HC: Ob, I don't know. You've got a guy like Danwyn Cooke. ‘Yeah, but, see, Tthink that Darwyn is very traditional He veat? Yeah, Ido, I mean, 1 love his work. I think he's a Fanta tic storyteller. But [think his vork is very traditional. I don’t feel that he is one of those artists whose ego isin front ofthe works itself. I know tha’ a very fine line, what I'm taking about, but— HC: See, for me, I think Darwyn is the personification of cversthing old is now again, He operates from what you and I know as the traditional perspective, but you're also dealing with a culturally amnesiac audience Right, hat forgess afler about six months. 10 DRAW! + FALL 2008 HC Yeah! His visuals really do have a strong historicity, but, at the same token, he's selling fo an audience that's never heard of or seen his souree material. So for them think he's brand neve, 1 kmnow that you are a big fan of Toth, who was also a big fan of many of the illustrators, When you moved out 10 California, imagine you start to see Grandpa Toth little bit more often? HC:No, Alex and I—the last time I saw Alex was at ‘Thanksgiving of 1986. Wow! Did you have the falling out that everyone — HOt was on Alex's sit list for years Oh, okay. But at some point I take it you were— HCC was never an acolyte. The problem was that Alex's rela- tionship with talent was you had to basically bring him gr0- ceries, and T never had that kind of relationship with hirn. [farzis] You never brought him eanned food, mh?HC: No. And the fact is, Alex and I were always at each other's throats. I mean, T regard Alex as the single most important ‘comics artist in the United States, ever. ‘Why do you regard him as that? HC: He was able to take the concept of industtial design and introduce it into comics, His drawing, from shortly after he became a professional until he died, was for my money the ‘most economic, brilliant, simple approach to comic book art Pre ever seen in my life. He was an incredible picture maker, ‘who didn't have a clue about what a story was, Just didn't have a single idca, Regarded anything that he didn’t immediately ‘grasp as pretentious. And it was a tragedy. because the work ‘was just so extraordinary to look at, It makes my brain fart sometimes now looking at his work, its so beautiful. Ts hea guy you go back to every once in a while? HC: Oh, absolutely. No qnestion about it. When T get alittle bit {oo carried away, his stuff, it just boggles the mind. He's the couly comic book artist of whom I own a number of originals. I don't have a lot of comic art in my collection, ‘So you have more illustration and less— HC: Oh, yeah. I's Alex and... guess I own 2 piece of Simonson, but that’s not comic book at, i's au illustration, What else? Not amuch else. Penden marker rough nd finished inks for the cover of ‘Mica Chobon’s The Anaing Aaventeres ofthe Esais #2. ‘Would you classify yourself a fan of illustration ‘more, or just a fan of storytelling? HCt1 don't know. I actually don't even think about it.I eonsid- cer nyself a cartoonist. By my definition a cartoonist is a guy ‘who ‘writes and draws. And I do. But when you're doing illustration, you consider yourself an illustrator, right? HCI gness, if] thought about it, Honestly, I consider myself a really Ineky guy in that I've never really had to have a job, y'know? [have breakfast with a bunch of cronies every mom ing, and T see these guys hauling their asses out of a coffee shop to get to work and I'm like, “Okay, I've got to go to work. It’s cool” Y'know? I'm going home, siting back at my desk Pm here in my studio, I'ma Icky bastard. pretty great to be able ta da what you like to do for a living, You can’t really complain about that, HC:1 mean, I can bitch and moan, but the reality is— DRAW!+FALL 2008 11‘Well, all artists ean do that, Tmean, that's what we do, HC! I’m blessed. Ive got a great ‘career, I've got a great life. I's per- feet, Everything could fall apart in the next 20 minutes, but right now, in this ‘moment, I'm feeling pretty good. ‘Now, I want to talk to you a little bit about eraft, 00, because you've done— HC: Of course. That is what ‘your magazine is about, isn't in Right, right. In the beginning it seemed like you ‘were pretty mach a straight ahead sort of pen-and-ink uy. HC: Totally inept When you were ‘working with guys like Kane or Adams, you know, Adams is a ‘echnieal sort of guy. HC: Neal has a mastery of technique that is profound and astonishing. Look, the fact is, Iwas 50 inept with finishing tools. My prob- Jern was that I spent all this energy trying to set ‘work, and when I got it realized that I sucked, ‘an T didn’t have the ‘2008 to do the work that I got So was there a certain amount of fear? HO: You know how when yon learn to drive? When you learn to drive, you don't really learn to drive. You learn to pass the test. So there I was with 2 lot of ‘work and no skills, and I spent most of those first comple of ‘years bitching. and moaning, about technique, and the rest of my career I spent trying to earn technique. I reinvent nyself every couple of years, and its 12. DRAW! + FALL 2008 always a matter of: new tools to try dift ferent stuff. What I’m doing now is pretty mach aversion of what P've been doing for the past 30 ‘yeas. Even in black-&-white eomies, Iwork in mixed media. 1 work on the company stock because paper is just too darned expensive, I use Pelican ink, I use a #3 and a#2 brash—usi- ally the Series 283, the cheap, throwaway plastic black-@-white stufl—I use a 35 Rapidograph for very fine details, and I ink with Alvin pen- sticks and Pentel forantain pens. ‘Wow, Pentel. Now, these tools, were you using these on Flazz? HC: 1 inked Flagg with the Beryl Flash, Remember these? Mom, And you were doing that on tome hoard, too, for a while, right? HC Well, i¢ was a wally slick stock: T was doing, it on Crafint. You can’t get Craftint anymore, Uaughs] Well, they still make it, but they only have, literally, five or six tones now, ‘You were using markers, too, right? HC: Right. There was no ink on there at all. used magic marker and Beryl Flash ‘Were yon concered that at some point the aut would tum? HC: Never. Didn’ care. I don't eare now. Really? HC: I'm not working for posterity, I'm working, for reproduction, So you're not, as Williamson would say, working for the original? HE: No. I don’t eare, I know how that sounds to collectors and fans, but my allegiance is to the client ‘Well, one interesting thing is every body uses the same basie array of materials, but everybody has a very different criteria. AL Williamson's thing was all about the integrity of the original. He loved the physical original, and I think he was more in love with that than actnally the reproduction, which of course is 8 very— HC: Do you see him at all? haven't seen Alin years, T guess I'm, probably more on that side than on your side, ‘but I do understand that aesthetic. I probably‘More Photoshop-apgied p-c-tove (the woman's skit, the man’s fie, andthe office Hoo), his time page 2of "Upres,” rom Solo #4. ‘sou0™anbageo De COMICS Ihave more of that, say, when I’m doing 2 storyboard for some- body, becanse I’m never going to get that back. I pat it in the rail, I send it off. I'm not going to be an old man flipping through ny storyboards, wheteas I might be an old ran who right be able to sell my original pages for some money. Do ‘you know what I mean? Can you talk sbout anything you may hhave picked up from Woody or Gray Morrow? know Morrow used zi-a-tone all the time, which, of course, yon can hardly find anymore, either HC: Well, scanned all mine, ‘Yon scanned the patterns in? HEI scanned my zip-atone. ‘And then yon apply it in Photoshop? HC: have a Photoshop file ofall my zip-a-tone, plus another 100, 200 pattems that 've made, found, constructed, screwed ‘with, just weinded up; T have a tage Photoshop file of those The coloring now isso ovenpowering compared to the coloring in the old days that sometimes if you use zip-2- tone, the colorist is trying to go in and model your form and ‘can sometimes just main that effect. HCC I've been really lucky in that I work with eolorists with ‘whom! have a good relationship, that ean use what I give them on the pattern and mn with it, and make color out of i, 1's been rely effective, Edgar Delgado, who's coloring quite a bit of my stuff now—he's coloring the fFo/verine stuff and he colored the Biade stuff —he and I have a great simpatico relaionship. A very talented guy who managed to take my assembled pattem mania and make very effective, illustration-quality finishes out of it Would you say that youruse of pattern was very influenced by guy’ like Parker and people like tha, bringing that sensibility in? HC? Unequivocally, For me, as much as Ladore Robert Faweett— Fawcett is my favorite artist ofthat period—Parker isthe major artist of his generation. I'yon look at that issie of Cowmepolitan in “54 where he illustrates seven different stories under seven pseudonyms in seven different styles, you begin to tly appreei- ate what Parker was capable of. When you look at the lithopane issues that he did—the one on the history of jazz, and the one on the redesign of American ragazine—you really soe this guy was {just an amazing painter. Also, he very casnally took aver Gordo from Gus Arriola while Gus was sick for six mouths, Oh, I didn't know that. DRAW!*FALL 2008 13Hower starts witha very love thumb skeich to get down the composton md gestores ofthe chores. His pels ere Title mote than beckdo vs, wth wo Blas spotted, Most ofthe dawg is dein the Inking stage Fal, 2-0 tone pt ‘ro led Photoshop for mace textre, ‘emo RESPECTIVE MER, HC? He ghosted Gordo. This guy was just a giant A lot of that stuff is just tuuknown now. I mean, there scems to be HC If [were where you are now, Pd be in Stockbridge Yeah? HC: Because there's an Al Parker exhibi- tion af the Rockowell Museum right nor, in Stockbridge. Oh, HC? Tuesday my entire staff and I went down to Fullerton, about tivo hours south, to soe the Leyendecker show that just came from the Haggin Museum, Do you still 1ook at the illustra tion field? HC: All te time, Absolutely. No question about it. Look, keeping myself fresh is the paramount idea of my life. 1S what I have todo, And basically the way I keep myself young, green, and fresh is to constantly Look ‘t new stull—old stuff and new stull and be open to possibilities and ideas. Comic books today are very dif- ferent in so many respects than when you started, I mean, its hard to even do the straightforward adventure comic now, because everybody's got to have super- powers, HC: Well, it's what comics ate. How do you go about keeping yourself charged? HC: Well, i a matter of the constant rein- vention. That's what it's all about, You give yourself enough ope, and you go out there, and you keep reminding yourself that you're competing with people, in some cases, a third your age. In many cases, just half, but half is the good part, And that ‘what you've got to do to maintain is to not close your eyes to the possibilities, be aware of developments, pay attention 14 DRAW!+ FALL 2008DRAW!*FALL 2008 15just you get into amindset and you ‘embrace itas reality, and you can’t step outside of it. Do you follow me? ‘Yeah, yeah. So, looking at ‘camics fram your perspective, how da you view the industry (oday? As you say, you're using the computer a lat now. That must impact your process in a very different way, from even, when you were doing dmerica Flagg, which was very innovative, ‘reative, but was done “old school.” Do you know what I mean? HC: But in a profound way. much of ‘shat I've developed in working with Photoshop today is very much what I was anticipating in American Flagg. ‘The big difference is in Flagg Iwas, using an Exacto knife and Spray Mount and Xeras. Today, 'm going, in there and I’m using Photoshop. Do you follow me? ‘kn example shoot of Howard's shuns for Penisher Wer Journ! 819. ‘Andi do you think the fact that you delve into other fields has also helped you maintain that? HC: Without question. No donb in my mind, You know, its very easy to become completely parcehial in the context of| ‘comios. It’s very easy to simply do nothing but comics. I mean, Gil Kane was a guy who never ever leamed how to use refer- ‘ence materials in the context of enhancing the material, which, is why his books were all genet cities, generic saits, generic suns. It was just an incredibly generic approach. And [ loved Gil’s stuff. tll do. Tregard him as a piant in his time. But it remains thatthe qualities that he achieved in the mid.”60s and °70s are what he died with. And he was a smart guy, bat he did- n'teare that moch aboot the stuff: He did try, at ane point in his ‘career, to introduce reference material into his work, and he just couldn't do it, because he couldn't figure out a way to do it at the speed and pave that he'd gotten used to, Do you follesv me? Yes. HC: The way T keep gteen isto remember that I can't do what Pm doing at the same pace all the tine; that it's a learning curve. Pm sill beginning to lear this stu. do you know what | mean? Right. So a guy like Kane had a system, and he’s got to do his five pages a day to make his living or whatever, but that alone is going to sort of cut it off at acertain point. HC: But that’s also a mindset. Its not real. You impose that mindset on yourself, and you begin to accept the fact thatthe fantasy you had about the way lie should be is the real thing, and, frankly, id a creation of your own mind. The fact is 'm making considerably nore money pet page than T asin the °70, so you don’t have to turn out five, ten pages a day. But it’s 16 DRAW! + FALL 2008 Right, HC: But the impact and the effects are remarkably similar. So it was just having a different st of tools, basically HC: Tl give you an aneete, real simple.A cemple years back I ‘was in development of atclevision series, and I was working with Join Carpenter. We were working on a TV series version of Escape from New York. Vad not seen the films in yeas, 50 [ went ont and I bought videotapes and pictres and I came home and ‘watched them. I'm watching the Sequence inthe first one in which Snake Plssken is flying over New York City ina glider, and there's CGI, accmputer-generated map of New York City below: remember that, yeah, He That isnt CGI. What itis is a cardboard model of New ‘York City with fiberoptic ware running through it. It was his art director’, maybe his—1 don’t know, [never asked John atthe time—idea of what. a computer-genetated model sould look like when they finally existed. Okay? To a great extent, Iwas doing the same thing with Plagg with xeregrapkiy, anticipating Photoshop. Does that make sense? ‘Yeah. So if you were doing something like that today, the craft wonld be a litte bit easier, right? HCI shudder at the word “easier” Ii say “different” Just dif ferent, Becanse it’s a diferent process, For most of your career you have penciled and inked your awn work. At times you've had other people ink your sul, but — HC: Never happily. T don't know how to pencil for—I mean, Tlook at Starlin, who does these incted- iby tight pencils. My pencils ae just gestures, So you do alot of the drsw- ing in the ink? HC: Mm-hmm. And the redrawing, as swell, becanse I work a lot with paich- ing when cleaning up. So if you don’t like some~ thing, you do a little paste-over and go in— HC: All my originals are covered in Scotch Magic tape. tS a great sueface for inking on top of, Do you still work out your layouts small snd then enlarge them? H(z No, I do very rough thumbnails foc pacing, and alot of it is right on the board, Oh, okay. So you don’t do the Gil Kane thing of working ont your stuf small and then pulling it up. H(z L mean, | do roush dravvings, but it much rougher than, sy— Gil was doing fully ealized anatomical drawings and then tracing. T do prety much just structural setup and do them in tight pencil, but ‘my tight pencil has naling to do with tight penwils by definition, At the time you were coming in and cutting your teeth, were you aware of the European guys, like Moebius? HC: Yes. Actually, to a certain extent, Gil was the one who fumed me onto that staff: My fist job my first day working for Gil was elipping Robert MeGinnis paperback covers, and JC. Mezietes and Jean Girand pages ont of a few books. There was the Valerian stip and Blueberry. That was 1970. Did that affect your sensibility? He: Of course. [always felt your work had a Burapean flaver. Ht Again, sw that stuff, and inthe early °70s they all start ed coming over to visit. They had this huge congress in, like, "72 on °73, so we got to know those guys. And, yeah, P've always been aware of them. Whenever I go to Europe, I usually bring back piles and ples of set 1 buy tons of comios. What are you reading today? Are you into the manga. stuff af all? Do you look at any of that sult? H(t No, I can't warm to it at all. Pm reading a lt of guys in temns of writers. mean, we've going through a writer ascendancy More of Howard’ thomas fr Ponsher War Journal #19. PLGHES ™ ANDevie# MRAVEL CHAROCTESS INC ‘petiod right now in comies, which I find kind of interesting. 1 really like what Brian Bendis is doing beoanse T think i's kind of fim and smart, [stil read 100 Bullets. Hove what Brian Azzarello is doing, and T'm a huge fan of Eduardo Risso. Tove Leinil Yas stuf [think he's just sreat, just fantastic stall. | fike what Jason ‘Aaron is doing with Scalped, although [hive to say I'm not crazy about the artenrk. I'm sorry, Really? Tove the artwotk on that book. HG: You must be insane! Okay. [like laughs] [find it a bitle hhard to follow. And I know I'm alone in this, because there are people whto—T love the book. Again, it takes place in a wotld I ‘know nothing about, and I'm utterly convinced by what he’s done. [find it very convincing. 1 guess that’s one of the reasons [like the artwork, because I really fee like the guy's dane his research, HCz1 just can't wam to it 16a litle bit too loose, and every- bbody has a look a litle bit too alike forme. But I could be wrong. So what else ate you? HGS [like Chris Gage’s staff alot, and I was loving what he ‘was doing with Deag Mahnke en Stormaic. The new guy— its a perfect example, I don’t know the new guy’s stuff I sort of {ost my interest in it when Mahnke left. like what Mahnke was doing a lot. It had areal fim quality to it.And [really like what ‘Onis did with John Paul Leon on that Midnighter thing. ‘Mmm, that's very good stuff, yeah, HO: Chris is asim saiter. DRAW! *FALL 2008 17So you're trying to stay cutrent with what going on Do you have as much info on the placement of the in the industry? lettering and—yon knows, on Figgz you were the Alpha and the Omega, Het eat, Obviously, one ofthe things Tbeieve is afinetion of a guy who comes on like ux, doing an are on Hohwrine, isT'm — Ht] did everything. And it mined my life. But, no,T mean, on aa placekoeper. My job is to be as creative as I possibly can, but the material P've been doing for Marvel not ta f~ ansthing up for anyone else, My job is to do a of lato, P've been very Incky to work ‘great job with the material ’'m doing, but to leave the materi- ‘with editors who are really sharp and al in good hands when T go. And, fo do that, I eheek out all the ‘material that precedes me and follow through. ‘Yeah, it's fanny, because I would not think of Howard Chaykin drawing Haiverine. That just— HC: Pm having a great time. Again, Jason's story was, really good, and what Guggy’s doing just kicks ass, ‘Woll, I guess the main thing is if you can have fun. If you ean say this kicks ass and you ean have fan, T gyess in the end that's what it's all about, right? HC: Well, I'm inking pages as.we speak: I'm on page 15 of issue #60. And, at the same time, swhen I get off the phone with you, [ll give the notes for Edgar on the color of issne #59, and deliver three more pages today 18 DRAW! + FALL 2008‘An Ufravilet cover — very ove thombualskotch, pals (vith no indication of blacks, and inks. UUTRAVIOLET ™ AND Goons UTRASI PRODUCTIONS, NC, clever and I'm having a great time working with obn, and Axel was a gas. Aubrey Sitterso1 is a ‘otal blast. He a really fanny, brilliant guy. T have a really anal-retentive quality about the placement of balloons, because I believe its an organic part ofthe matedial, [think it should be clear to anybody who knows my stuf that I beliove its part ofthe art. Ihave no problem working with it, placing it digitally, but my notes... Teorne off like an old woman, and T know it, And Pmpetfectly comfortable with that Ae you working fll-seript or Marvel style? He In terms of what? ‘The Woberine stuff. HC Gugay’s scripts are wry, very complete. In terms of giving me exactly how mach T ‘want, he's just top-notch, Hes top of the hall Do you have a preference for works ing either way? mich prefer full-script. My feeling is ‘guy doesn't foel doing a fall seriptis ‘worth his time, then work with somebody else. ike the idea of a fall seript. I really do. 1 think its 2 mark of respect for the material DRAWI+ FALL 2008 19Tomb Ror cover tints vwerons stoges of 20 DRAW! FALL 2008Now, that is a very old-school concept, because other guys— Ht Well, that’s because I believe in story, and most of the ‘guys who prefer working Marvel style say, “I cam draw whatev- cer I feel like today! Right, “I can make this a big, cool shot here,” or whatever, HC: And really don’t care about that stuff. To me, the story's ‘what matters, what i all about. And I like working fll-script ‘And T recognize the fact tat there may be problems inherent in— the fact is, Thave a very specific idea about nartative. Ima cur ‘mudgcon, and I've found myself in situations where... Forexam- pile, Jason and I do not have anywhere near the same sensibility of pacing and storytelling. The same is tre of me and Brian Bendis, but I was able tofind a working happy medium in both cases. For sorre reason, Guggenheim, his stuf, I just rll righ into it, Bat the challenge isn't such a tough thing either. You talk about keep ing greener all your lif, that’s another thing that keeps you going, rt doing the same in’ thing all the time. ‘You know, I enjoy that, myself. Ieven enjoy that aspect when I'm doing storyboards. If T'mworking with Brace Timm, you kind of do his thing, if you're working with Gendy, The fly color version af the Torb Rado. ‘yon do his thing HC: What is it that you're boarding now? Right now I’m actually boarding on a new show called The Secret Saturdays, which is created by Jay Stephens, the guy who does Twiensteie. That's through Porchl ight, which is from Cartoon Network. But I've worked on Fenture Brothers, Pe worked on Fairly Odd Parents, ve worked or— HC: Ob, cool! My grandchildren think the world of you. I'ma huge Fairly Odd Parenis fan, thanks to my granddanghters. enjoy the different aesthoties you get from one show to the next HC: Absolutely. Sce, we're talking about the same thing, really. Right. And in the case of the storyboard, the style of the show is really just like whether you're going to weara jumpsuit or a business suit it's the storytelling that's para- ‘mount. It all about telling the story. Once you get your chops to acertain point, for me anyway, i's never been that hard 10 flex between one style and another style. The style of story- telling, the pace of storytelling on something like Fairly Ode Parents is different than Kim Possible, different than Venture Brothers, different than Gendy*s stuff on Samat Jack. But, again, its all abont telling the story, so all your solutions— HCE have a lot of respect for that, because 1 dom think I could do that. I'm not being facetious, I mean, [ don’t think 1 have the chops to make that kind of adjustirent, And T have a lot of respect for auys whe do. 1 actually think having worked in storyboarding has made ny comic book storytelling mich, much better, because one of the things is it removes—y’know, guys from mry genera tion, I think, were much more obsessed with style. “Is my style cool? AmT drawing in this style?” The style is already estab- lished, so that is removed. What you have to concentrate on is purely telling the story in the clearest, most entertaining fash- ion, becanse it’s not going to look like my style, it’s going to look like the style of the show. So its purely a storytelling exer- cise, And one of the things I ean do now, because I teach story boarding and storytelling, is that — HC: Where do you teach? D teach at the Delaware College of Art and Design, and Pm going to be teaching at Luts in Philly in the spring. Oue of the things I've found, in general, about teaching is that it foreed me to be critical about what I was doing. Now, I've always been a litle bit of a process junkie, as my friend Jamar calls it, of the craft, because that's how T tanght myself. Sinee T didn’t g0 to school and I wasn't able to apprentice with anybody, I had to— HCC: But the nature of apprenticeship is the process of exactly ‘what you're talking about. I'm exacily the same place. I know ‘exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, Ido. HOWARD CHAYKIN INTERVIEW CONTINUES CN PAGE 44 DRAW!*FALL 2008 21race for oats eeT'm glad we finally got to talk, I've wanted to inter- view yon fora Tong time for the magazine beesnse you're one ‘of my favorite cartoonists working today. 582 You've been teasing ane with this for a while, Mike, but now there's a really good reason, because it finally looks like I have a high-profile project. Well, you were always high profile in my book, Jay JS: Awwww, thanks. And I know thats tme, because you were the first guy to waite me a letter for fescat Chubhoute—T'm pretty sire yours was the first ltterI got, So T know you've been looking at my stuff, But until The Secret Saturdays launch this fall, up until this point in my career, I've been working as 2 “eartoonist’s cartoonist” ¢if I dare say that), where I feel like the entirety of my fan base is other cartoonists. [/augfs] ‘One of the things I was very interested in talking to you. about was the fact that you area legitimate, real eartoonist, you've done almost every format T ean think of, plas you've fad 4 fot of success. It sevied to stat with self-publishing and build up from there, at Teast that's where I first became aware of your work. Then you worked for chickaDEE, one of those kids? magazines in| Canada, 4S: And lots of stiff for Nickelodeon Magazine, 2 ell Right, and now yon are working ‘on your third cartoon series. Fist, you had Feteat, which was on KaBlant.. St Yup, animated shorts, right. And then you had Tutensiein, ‘which was on the Diseovery Channel here in the States, St Yup, 36 episodes, and there's a new Tutensiein TV movie coming out. And now The Secret Sanday for Cartoon Network. So you're rocking up toa Frank Miller, buddy. 45% I dow know. I think of myself as real bine collar, as far as cartooning goes. ‘What, Frank Miller’ not blue BoW ww wow! = collar? Ss [Zaugis} Well, no, I mean inthe sense— the reason I'm all over the place is mote because I’m interested in the work. P'm not shoving off, Mike. [Zags] I'm interested in all different forms of cartooning, which is part ‘of the reason I joined the National Cartoonists Society, because Iwas finding thatthe comic, bbook convention circuit was setting a litte boring for me Tid been doing it fora decade ‘or more, meeting other comic book guys, but comic books were Just one of the things I really liked, So, to try to hook up with other rip cartoonists, animators, and illustrators, finally found a place to meet them in the NCS. Dve always identified myself as a “care toonis.” From the beginning, I never thought of myself as a comic book gay, or an animation goy— Although you were actually doing comic books as opposed to doing comic strips. At least, most of the stuff that I was exposed fo of your work in the beginning, IS: Yeah, definitely. 1 was definitely 2 comic book guy at the start, and yet I never really thought of myself that way: I think part of the reason was... and you listed all this stuff I've done, ‘which, on one level, there's no question thst my career's been snecess in that 've been a full-time professional cartoonist for ‘mote than 15 years, and I’m supporting a family on it ‘That is the very definition of success for most I think. That's all Tever asked, thats all [ever wanted, and ['m very happy and satisfied with the work have done. But, looking at snccess critically, when I talk about being a “cartoonist’s car- tootist,"I've never had trouble making fiends with other ear- toonists who appreciated what I was trying to do in eorie Panis fora chickaDEE sip forthe Conon kids’ margin ofthe sane nae. (CHGKADEE'™ AND eteou SAVARD PRESSE CMADA NC. DRAW!+FALL 2008 23WN, TH GONG SWIM PLL WAY TO ENGLAND! @ {| MAYBE YOUR TRUNKS WILE WAKE iT ENGLAND. “wo strips—ene sil in pel form, ene fly inkel—for Jay's erent stip, whi he das with writer Bob abe, Oh Brosh! [ONBROTHER "AND EeneNBCEIESER AND BY STEPHENS, books or elsewhere, but I've never had a real “hit” Mike, Well, hat brings up a very interesting topie, one that Trve talked a lot about, IPs actually one of the focuses of the ‘magazine, to cover all aspects of cartooning inthe broad sense and to chip away the separations between them, because 1 think ‘what happened long aga is that there was that separation of come strips and comie boots. The older generation of eartoon- {ats —inelnding guys lke Kitty were all inspired by the strip. ‘And that was the previous generation’ idea of success, if you ‘could soll a comic strip. That also meant that you could become very wealthy, and millions of people read yaar work, and yoo also weren't looked apon as some form of social pariah becanse you were pandering snut to kids—all chat st that seerned to kind of sticketo comic books atleast until the °60s or "70s. But nos, when [talk to lay people, mest lay people don't distn- auish between Smperman and Charlie Brown. Camic book guys clo, There’ really this shetoization of, “Well I jus Tike super- heroes,” or, “T just lke indie or shoe-gazer comies” of, “T just like manga” And what’ interesting for me as a teacher, when T teach these cartooning classes, you never know what eross-s0e- tion of people you will get. Most seem to kind of mix it up— its really mostly the supetheto fans, who just like supetheroes, that seem to have the most prejudice against ether stl. 45t Thats interesting, because we just had an NCS convention, and I was talking to Hilary Price, who docs a great gag stip called Rigmes with Oreuge, about this and I was surprised to find ‘that that stigma and stereotyping still works both ways. Twas arguing that we have fewer cami book people in the National 24 DRAW! © FALL 2008 Cattoonists Society than we ought to, and it met with some tesis- tanee. Thats part of exactly what you're talking, about—a lot of comic book people assume that the NCS is all strip people, and it is. And comic book people seem to hate strip people. Well, dund come book people do. JS: hearsome vitriol about how awful they are, and its so ffanns, becanse it realy is, like yon say, the exact same art form at its core—the combination of words and pictmtes. But it requires very different skills. think comic book ereators and fans have very little idea of what real skills and challenges are involved in knocking out a daity three-panel strip. It is the most Puritan form of cartooning, I mean, you really have to hone everything down, and you don't have as mch teal estate, as much space to do everything. JS: Absointely; which cam be a negative and a positive. There's definitely some downside to working on a syndicated stip in national papers, bt there's something really beantful about a stip that clicks. Theresa new stip out right now called Cul de Sac. by Richard Thompson—great comic and great guy, and he was up for best newspaper strip in the NCS Renben Division Awards this eat So was my fiend Paul Gilligan, who does Pooch Café ‘There's som great stuff out there that T think comic book people are just unaware of: But I think what's suprising is the bias goes the other way, as well, in that trip flkstill frown upon the comic book crowd. With the change inthe form af comic books, the gravitation towards bound books, the infhn of manga and how that’ influencing commie sales, you find just as many graphic nowels in bookstores, a least up herein this area, as you do collee- tions of comic strips now. [assumed they were gaining reapedt. Now, are you saying bookstores as in Bames & Noble and Borders, or are you talking about comie book stores? 4582 No, no, I'm talking about like Bames & Noble. When we'te talking about a lay person, when we're talking about cartoonists in the broadest sense and what people's perception of us might be, I think you can find more graphic novels than you ean find Garfield aud Dilbert collections now in some major chains. Well, there seems to be, not only in the minds of the artists, but also the minds of the bookstores, still a separation between manga, superheroes, and what they would call humor, bbecanse all comic strips seem to be hnmor and are sold in a section often far away from the other comics, 4S: That's tme, too, which is another reason I was driven out of ‘come books—banging my head against the wall for years try ing to make a humor comic book. And comic book fans, supethero fans, have no sense of humor. At least, the direct market won't support any humor books. 4482 No, In fact, most of the underground cartoonists, or what- fever you call them these days, they don't have mach of a sense ‘of humor, either. I mean, Evan Dorkin and I have talked about this for yeats, how everyone just needs to lighten up a little, ‘That even extends, honestly, to movies, like the -Acaderny Awards, 10s never a comedy that wins, i's always the ‘drama about some hontble person with a tragedy or a personal afllition or something like that. Cornedy, which is actually the hardest thing to do, and really the most universal of all lan- guages, seems fo get 80 little respect. My theory is that the baby men, a8T call them, the eult guy, hardeore, moath-breather comic fanatic is embarrassed on one level, so thesefore any time you make fan of Wolverine, its like you're making fun of him, and he’s already had enough people make fim of him in his life, so its like a defense mechanism, They like watching The Simpsons, they love watching Famiy Guy, bat somehow if you take humor and you bring it into comics, it just doesn’t work for them, Or it ‘works, but they have no appetite fori, IN the same sort of post- 80s apocalypse guy with beard stubble over and over. 48: Yeah, i's steange, i's wally strange. Often the assumption is that humor is fora younger audience, I get that alot, was doing humor comie books that I thought were “All Ages” in the, best sense of that term, meaning that anyone would find it fimmy, I would hope, and that automatically translated, as far as ny career went, into me being a “kids’ cartoonist.” Certainly my drawing style is very open and friendly, but 1 just think that’s interesting, too, that if you're funny, you'te automatically not serious, and therefore for kids, Which is just simply not the case. Right. Charles Schulz did not write Peanuts for sevens -yearold kids. The strips are all written for or to appeal to adults, 4S Bactly. And [think that trying to create something —and The ‘Simpsons is a g00d example of something truly all-ages—that really honestly works on all levels thats wally hard. ve found in comie books that nobody was trying to do that anymore, Tused 10 post on comic book message boards alot five, si, seven years age, when everyone was complaining, “Well, where are the comic books for kids? Where are the new readers? We've just pandering, for the older crowd.” And nobody did a damm thing about itt T ‘watched that ship sail sway foorn the shore, and 1 kind of let comic books with it-T sill dabble, but the reason T eft is that I realized that nothing was going to change. I kept saying, “Tm doing these kids’ magazine comics, Nickelodeon Magazine's million-plus seller. Disney Adventures sels tons of magazines fall of eomites” It was a money-making opportunity that comic book publishers and sellers were intentionally ignoring. There is a huge audience out there. I mean Archie still sells well JS: But kids aren't wading “comic books” anymore, now. And it’sinteresting, I think, thal when we talk about rack space in bookstores, how people separate manga and the superhero stuff and the strips, what we're talking about is format, Which is bizarre to me, It's net even genre that divides them. Te literally format. I mean, there are humor manga and humor graphic nov- ‘ls that should be racked with humor comic strips. And then there are serions comic strips that should be racked with the sraphic novels, They're not even being racked by subject mat- ter, they te being racked by how they look, Going back to when you were first getting into pro- "Ba, FEELIN THE CAT fe) Felix the Cot spo guide cawings. FELOCTHE CAT ™ ano toon FELIC COMICS, RC DRAW!*FALL 2008 25