A Cornish Book of Ways - an interview with Gemma Gary

obscure the strange in the magical was very normal to be answered me I was very drawn instinctively to
magic hybrids who knew perform with her spells and rituals
as a child long before I knew anything about witchcraft knew that witchkind existed as practice that's a
very very instinctive thing I think that I was Sam very naturally drawn she was a child yeah gemma is a
british craft initiates
an occultist a writer an artist an
illustrator and a trustee of the Friends
of the Voss Castle Museum of witchcraft
you have written many works that
explored witchcraft and folk magical
traditions most of its actually focused
upon the traditions as they are found in
Devon sure and Cornwall now we're going
to talk I mean you've heard you you you
you have written a lot of books we're
going to focus a little bit more in this
book that you wrote traditional
witchcraft a Cornish book of ways and
this is an amazing book let me tell you
this is a traditional witchcraft
recording book of ways Gemma Gary by
Troy books now I have to give a couple
of things about Troy books there are
four new authors coming up on the next
twelve months to Troy books it's very
very exciting by nursing is going to
come up also there's another book called
the black dog folklore and it's all
about ghosting appearances of black dogs
all over the world by after the devil's
plantation that comes up
so tell me um what was the the real I
mean we're talking about the traditional
witchcraft a Cornish book of ways you
made the illustrations of this book the
the photos are by the fantastic Jim Cox
oh yeah and we have a first edition in
2008 October precisely and second
revised edition in 2011 in November and
3then we have a reprint on 2012 and 13
now what was the idea behind what
prompts you to write this book oh gosh
well the ideas behind the book were
really around a long time before I
actually got around to writing anything
it was really born from various
different things starting of course with
my own practice you know this is long
before I was involved with magical group
so anything my solitary practice work
was one in which I was very interested
in linking it in to the local lore and
the magical traditions of Cornwall and
so there was obviously a wealth of
different informations that I could draw
upon most popularly of course there's
the collections of Robert hunt and
William Bottrell who in the 19th century
collected a lot of law from new witch's
wise folk and also new the people who
had interacted with these people and
also the folklore that of stories about
these people and so there was a lot of
material there for me to draw upon and I
saw these as things that I'd like to try
and put into practice in some way and to
adapt them for modern-day practice
and the second influence really was
what's known in the UK is modern
traditional witchcraft because although
in the folk collectors material it's all
operative magic yes what was really
missing for me was the ritual side of
things yeah I enjoy operative magic but
I also like very much and enjoy ritual
so a ritual structure was needed and at
the time I was friends with whipped
witches in East Anglia who were very
involved with the Robert Cochran style
of witchcraft which in in Britain is one
of the near the movements within
traditional witchcraft and so that
really fitted nicely to provide the the
structured ritual content because you
know in Cornwall you have things like
conjuring start offs and you know
circumambulation around holy wells and
stones and what-have-you for magic and
those things obviously found in Robert
Cochran's tradition of witchcraft and
also working with a spirit world as well
so these things Charlie did very nicely
together indeed you just heard a fluffy
noise that that wasn't me that's the dog
now you do say that following the first
availability of the book it became clear
that the interests of this in
contemporary paths of Cornish
traditional witchcraft was larger and
you know the the the response to this so
this is the next question how was the
response to this of course it was like
probably overwhelming it was yes
when I first decided to write a book it
was really with the intention of just
6:34getting it printed and peddling it
6:36around locally through a few shops you
6:38know just to drum up some interest
6:40locally because you know there was a
6:43pagan community in Cornwall but I what I
6:47found lacking was an interest in the
6:50Cornish methods of magic and Cornish
6:53tradition and folklore and what have you
6:55and so you know the idea was to know put
6:59these little booklets around what have
7:01you and see what came of it and of
7:05course Jane cards
7:06she's a multi-talented person you know
7:10she decided you know why don't we do it
7:12ourselves know just print and particular
7:14books and put these online a bit before
7:18we knew it we were having orders coming
7:21in from all over the world how are you
7:24any signing in : now tell me one thing
7:38now how is this possible we're talking
7:40about a tradition or practices there are
7:45very much imbued into the landscape and
7:49we're going to talk about this later and
7:51they're very much into the land and and
7:55you know it's the knowledge of the land
7:56I mean the the whole practice is you
8:00know it's embedded into this landscape
8:03geographically how is it possible to do
8:06this in Jerusalem or in - in Poland
8:11I mean Wayne - in Alabama I mean how is
8:14it possible Wow I mean people seem to
8:19make it work for them perhaps they are
8:21attracted to the particular flavor of
8:24new style of witchcraft and they adapt
8:27it for their own purposes in their own
8:29landscape you know each landscape
8:31obviously has its own law and magical
8:34traditions and perhaps they you know use
8:36that as a basis to build on new their
8:39own traditions not have you
8:41I think it is a it's a matter of methods
8:44yeah you know the for instance the
8:46walking in the landscape you know and
8:49we're going to talk about that a little
8:51bit later that can be done anywhere you
8:54know to search for that you know that
8:57energy that you know we call it ley line
9:00now but it's really not but you know so
9:02and I think that those are the things
9:05that people are working are looking for
9:07the template that they can then build on
9:10their own landscape on their own land
9:13feel the land and and try to to extract
9:16the memories and you know and the
9:18procedures so that's very interesting so
9:21you say that also this is something that
9:26you know that it was nothing you know
9:28Cornish witchcraft tradition was not
9:30really nothing set in stone it was you
9:33know there was never a certain stone
9:38tradition of organized Cornish
9:40witchcraft is never existed before you
9:44had magical practitioners and they
9:46perhaps each had their own individual
9:48ways you have established methods of
9:52Cornish magic and working charms you
9:55have traditions associated with some of
9:57the ancient sites for example the men
10:00and tall stones that's the hold stone
10:02and a joint payment in the ground and
10:06that has healing traditions and
10:09divination traditions we have holy Wells
10:12with magical traditions but yet an
10:15organized ritual cult of witchcraft knew
10:19that that isn't something that we found
10:21in Cora at all mm-hmm so it was an
10:24individualistic what we have in the book
10:29here is very ritualistic but again it's
10:32it doesn't claim to be a historical
10:35tradition of cornish witchcraft it is
10:38very much something that's been put
10:40together from my own practice which drew
10:43upon magical practices in Cornwall and
10:46from other witches I encountered in
10:48Cornwall working in the present day so
10:51yeah it's very much a modern tradition
10:55of craft plans developed amongst a few
10:58people that drools upon the past but
11:01isn't claiming to be historical in any
11:03way inspired writing today yes now this
11:12book as well as many other things that
11:15you do locally are part of an intent
11:20that you have previously you and some of
11:22the people to awaken the awareness and
11:26and revival of some of the traditions
11:31that were lost indeed you know in local
11:33traditions of the year of the Cornish
11:35seasonal festivities especially you know
11:39in in pen with which is know what kind
11:43of festive ities are these and and is
11:45every word welcome everyone is welcome
11:46to these behind this is a man called
11:52Simon Reid who wrote a book Forrest
11:55called the traditional Cornish year and
11:58he's been instrumental in reviving a lot
12:01of local traditions here in the Penzance
12:03area and we have really a season or
12:06almost a wheel yeah we have may horns in
12:15May which involves people processing
12:18through from mouths or not mouth or
12:20Newlin into Penzance
12:23I mean basically blow horns and whistles
12:26and make a colossal racket
12:28it sounds like an old tradition that was
12:38involved in my horns in the past was
12:40making whistles out of Sycamore what
12:43have you and you had the old made horns
12:46big tin and copper horns so yes a good
12:49excuse to dress up it's great it's good
12:55so now um let's let's move to historical
12:58figures you know one of those
13:00you know and you talk about this in in
13:02the book a lot not a lot but you know
13:05you have the introduction and then you
13:06have a couple of them and and you do
13:09have some photographs now by the way
13:11photographs of our beloved Jane are so
13:16beautiful
13:17and well done and they're all black and
13:19white very artistic and and of course it
13:23wouldn't work if the model was not very
13:24good so now tell us about granny boss
13:35well yes she was one of Halston's most
13:40famous which is of course there were
13:42many witches and cunning folk and wise
13:46folk in Cornish tradition but as those
13:49granny Boswell and Tammy Billy are the
13:51ones who turn up almost written about
13:54and she was of Roman origin and she
13:59married a Roman II and yes yeah
14:05practiced magic for mainly for young
14:07women who wanted to ask questions about
14:11their future lovers or future husbands
14:13what-have-you she made little charms for
14:16people grisly charms including spiders
14:19and bags to hang around your necks and
14:21what have you
14:23no Cornish stuff tell me one thing I
14:27know that most of these things come out
14:30of William pastoral and all of those
14:33historians M Chronicle you know people
14:36at the time that actually you know
14:38collected these things now is it
14:41possible to draw from their accounts
14:45anything or at least be inspired to
14:49apply to Cornish witchcraft today oh yes
14:53I think that's always possible
14:55you know if you but roll and hunt were
14:58collecting in the mid 1850s and mid
15:011800s
15:03and yeah they collected so many stories
15:07and accounts and no I'm of the opinion
15:10that there's always something of use in
15:13there that you can draw upon
15:15so yeah that's definitely I don't I
15:16don't like to see these things as just
15:18relics of the past to be you looked at
15:21to left alone this there's always things
15:23of use no yes absolutely yeah yeah now
15:26talking about magic and and all of the
15:29practices the needs or the requests from
15:33magical from the magical practitioners
15:35of that people would ask them still
15:38today are the same that they were I
15:41don't know in the past
15:44do we still ask for love money health
15:47and you know roof overhead I used to
15:54work as a magical practitioner for for
15:58clients I don't
15:59I sadly don't get to do that much these
16:01days because I'm more involved with
16:03foresee the books what have you yes
16:05better yeah certainly the the queries
16:09that have put to me were for people
16:11seeking charms to keep their
16:15relationship together or to encourage a
16:18new lover so yes love always came at the
16:21top of all the requests from clients
16:24then office I think the second one was
16:27people who suspect they were cursed or
16:31having nearly one of three bad luck and
16:34what have you said he wanted that to be
16:36you know exercised or lifted from them
16:38so yeah I'd say love and seeking the
16:42lifting of a curse were the two main
16:44ones that always came up over new again
16:47now mark is very very he's participating
16:52in the chat room I'm just and he says it
16:59might be interesting to ask Gemma to
17:01talk about the differences between the
17:03Cornish ways and those in Devon as she
17:06is currently writing about Devon
17:07witchcraft
17:11thank you Mark yes well my current
17:17witchcraft book is still very much a
17:19pile of very scattered and unorganized
17:22notes so it will manifest into a book
17:25one day I think no really there are a
17:29lot of similarities between Devon and
17:32Cornwall because they are neighbors
17:33after all so you know a flow between the
17:37two is its natural really Devon
17:41witchcraft you find perhaps a lot more
17:44of the shape-shifting stories of witches
17:48and toads being used an awful lot more
17:52animal hearts being stuck with pins and
17:56humming chimneys yeah mainly among the
18:00farming communities a lot of the old
18:03stories of white which has been brought
18:07in to count curses you revolve around
18:10the farming communities you know
18:13obviously because all the problems they
18:14might encounter with cattle dying or
18:16being ill and suspecting a witch what
18:18have you
18:20and there's also accounts of new white
18:24which is new the White Witch of Exeter
18:26and what have you being consulted by
18:30people so perhaps there are more stories
18:33I think from new Devon then there are
18:37from Cornwall
18:38a lot of the Cornish stories are perhaps
18:40more in the realm of folklore was the
18:44not the ones from Devon I think are more
18:46historical stories of things that
18:49actually happened but of course folklore
18:51as well can be you know there's no smoke
18:53without fire I think in folklore they're
18:54underlining
18:55truths attached she went on but yes no
18:59writing the Devon book is going to be a
19:01an interesting you know I'm looking
19:03forward to seeing the difference it's
19:04myself and we are to know money was
19:10always something that you you talk about
19:13you know
19:15money and exchange of money and all of
19:17that was there anything else that you
19:21know which is at the time would accept
19:24and still today you know in in exchange
19:27for for you know a curse lifting or
19:30something like that well yes a lot of
19:35Cornish which is seen to have being you
19:38know in it has a profession and money
19:41indeed would change hands sometimes in
19:45your historically new you see quite a
19:47lot of firm you could hi sum of money
19:49which for the people at a time know with
19:51their low incomes would have been quite
19:53a hefty payment which his test actually
19:56the belief they hiding the abilities of
19:58these people but no certainly which is
20:03my task for you know eggs or milk or
20:06supplies in order you know to keep
20:09curses off the farm on have you kind of
20:11a protection racket and there's always
20:17there so well it's it's it's it's the
20:20art of cunning isn't it so I mean in
20:22every in every single way in every
20:24single way now curse lifting it's one of
20:29the things that really fascinates me I
20:32really do like you know as a friend of
20:35mine says a bloody good curse and and
20:38and just because of the architecture of
20:40it I really think that curses are so
20:42much more interesting and cursed lifting
20:45so much more interesting than anything
20:46else you know in the spectrum of
20:49everything it's still today do we
20:53practice this I mean art people who come
20:56to the practitioners today asking for
20:59curse lifting and and and did the causes
21:02of the curse lifting actually changed it
21:04from ancient times or food from the past
21:06to now I mean it was it always Envy or
21:09it was always you know some kind of
21:12hatred or what was it that drives it
21:15said he found out that was the cause of
21:18this
21:19well I think there's an interesting
21:21difference between the clients come for
21:25curse lifting today and the ones you
21:28read about in the past the past clients
21:31tended to want to know who the cursor
21:34was and the witch or fella might perform
21:39a divination to show them who the person
21:41was we placed a class on them
21:44accordingly
21:45yes today for some reason people aren't
21:48so interested in finding out who the
21:50person is they just come to say I am
21:52cursed this is happening to me I'm
21:54experiencing these runs of bad luck can
21:57you lift this curse for me mm-hmm
21:59so yes that is an interesting difference
22:02between the two very interesting so they
22:04don't want to know who it is just yeah
22:08just get rid of it yeah and this is well
22:13you know again you know money and all of
22:16that now cunning folk charmers white
22:18witches conjurus fellows what are the
22:22differences here well the folk
22:28collectors seem to like to pigeonhole
22:30people neatly into little boxes Batangas
22:33I think reading through the stories
22:36these people really overlapped quite a
22:39lot in what they did you know I mean
22:41white which a white which is of course
22:43sir I miss Nomar because they were also
22:46entirely capable of Carson so I think
22:51other writers in the west country of
22:53written of grey which is or double ways
22:55witches oh I see yes
22:58charmers tend to be people who work with
23:02healing new blood stopping halt charming
23:05bone setting that kind of thing
23:08a wise woman repeller no they might be
23:12more around as priding charms what
23:15happier divinations I don't think
23:19there's any real clear can't define
23:22differences but I think ya defended
23:25depending on what they're doing right I
23:27mean yeah you know what which can be
23:29doing an ever nation and as well as the
23:31pillar can be doing you know a charm I
23:34mean it's just not you know yeah its
23:36intent interchangeable isn't it yes now
23:43you said that we don't really find I
23:45mean this word coven and you know
23:50organized group of people who actually
23:51are doing things and you know you
23:56already said that we can't find that we
23:58can't really find that in Cornwall and
23:59and or you know in in in the Cornish
24:02witchcraft now it is very much solitary
24:06maybe and you pointed out this in the
24:09book that were groups maybe it was it
24:13was very rare because you know
24:15transportation money you know all of
24:17those things kept into account and the
24:20ways we're not really very you know but
24:24do we have it today indeed we do yeah I
24:29mean yes in the past it would be very
24:31difficult with people's busy lives and
24:33local transportation what-have-you to
24:35gather together and it's not to say it
24:38didn't happen we just don't know about
24:39it I don't know because I wasn't there
24:45today times have changed we do have
24:48disposable incomes we have time we have
24:51transports and no practitioners do you
24:54gather together definitely
24:55mmm-hmm now let's go a little bit deeper
24:57onto this onto the book let's talk about
25:00the red syrup
25:04what is the red serpent and why is it so
25:07important for the for the practitioner
25:10well this is found in Roman beliefs it's
25:14and perhaps found worldwide the idea of
25:17the telluric fire in the earth the earth
25:21earth spirit is often depicted as a
25:24serpent and this ties in with knew the
25:29Fallen fire from the heavens
25:32the old ones depicted as of the serpent
25:34blood and knew the the forefathers of
25:38which blood and what-have-you and so the
25:40serpent in witchcraft in particularly
25:44modern Cornish witchcraft amongst of
25:47practitioners I've worked with and in my
25:49own work the serpent is the force that
25:52animating life force within the land
25:54that empowers life but also can be drawn
25:58upon during power magic what happened to
26:08the serpent adds a new moon tides the
26:17absent flows the moon governs the Seas
26:21move east it's tidal cycles and the
26:24earth responds accordingly you know you
26:26have you know the serpent there the
26:29growing and the full moon can be a
26:31generative force and the waning and dark
26:34of the Moon it can be a consumptive
26:36forces and of course something that
26:38consumes can be a dangerous thing to
26:41work with you know if you're not that
26:42guarded and then you don't be consumed
26:45yourself or drained but it's very
26:49interesting their cycles absent flows
26:51now another thing that you talk about is
26:54the mystery of becoming
26:56right what is this the mystery of
26:59becoming as as you say in the book it's
27:07very difficult to actually write this
27:12many things you can feel and understand
27:14innately in yourself but yes I'm in two
27:17words the things very different
27:19I suppose you really simplify it the act
27:23of becoming is realizing your connection
27:28to all around you know the earth below
27:31the sky above the winds of spirit the
27:34finds of the heavens the fires in the
27:37land the telluric fire the ancestral
27:40voices in the waters of the earth no
27:44these are all things that you draw upon
27:46and it creates a wholeness and you're a
27:49magical sense of connection to all and
27:52there's the old cunning idea that all is
27:56one all is connected and that's a very
28:00good starting point for magic because if
28:03you're realizing your connection to all
28:06then you can work with your target the
28:09target of your magic because you're
28:10connected to it now there's a whole lot
28:14of I mean this book is so rich that I
28:17can't you can't just kind of go through
28:21it all but there's a whole lot of things
28:24I'm gonna just go and and kind of like
28:27glance through I mean there's the
28:29witches comm-pass which is we're gonna
28:31talk a little bit about that if we you
28:33know and the book also because it's on
28:35one of the things that you actually you
28:37contributed to several works for this or
28:40with this the trade which is another
28:42thing the trade is basically where you
28:45actually put all of the things that
28:46charns the workings of protection the
28:51magic
28:52but there is one and I'm particularly
28:55interested in this because it's actually
28:57where the name troy books come
29:01it's the Troy stone and how does one use
29:06a Troy stone and why well you have on
29:11the Troy stone which it is basically a
29:15flat slab of stone usually slate because
29:18it's very easy to carve into not that
29:20heavy to use and you have a you know
29:24circular labyrinth mm-hmm
29:26and this isn't a labyrinth you can get
29:27lost in you know there's not twists and
29:30turns that take you in different ways
29:31it's one way in to the center and one
29:34way out
29:35so really it's it's a meditative tool
29:39it's a trance inducing tool and a
29:43magical tool you're working in you're
29:46descending into the labyrinth round and
29:48round to the center as you go you're
29:51turning clockwise and then
29:53anti-clockwise so it's you're creating
29:56that balance then you arrive at the
29:58center and then of course you work your
30:00way out again clockwise anti-clockwise
30:03and out of the labyrinth so it's um
30:06there can be a work of creation you go
30:09into the labyrinth you get rid of
30:11something you leave it there as you're
30:14working your way out of a labyrinth that
30:15could be a generative work and you come
30:18out of the labyrinth with that which you
30:19desire and you know a new magical goal
30:23how's it well it's a wonderful wonderful
30:26tool isn't it yeah mainly mainly a
30:30meditative tool it's very very useful
30:32for inducing yeah light trance state yes
30:35particularly in before divination work I
30:38use it a lot for that
30:39mm-hm
30:40now we have to jump Jenna we can't
30:46who is bucha or a bookie you can say
30:57poker if you want go ahead it's some
31:03very mysterious deity that look for me
31:07it's a deity in cornish law it seems to
31:12have been degraded towards a goblin
31:16state a chess or a naughty spirit
31:18whereas there are ideas that before it
31:22was actually some form of deity that has
31:27been degraded because it's you find
31:29parallels with Booker and Park in
31:33different cultures and these quite often
31:35relate to a Doge form deity or goat
31:38spirit and knew the before and this is
31:43something I encountered when I first
31:46became interested in Cornish folklore
31:48and researching it the bucket came up
31:50and for some reason grabs my attention
31:53and became a focus of my work but also
31:56when I first became involved with covens
31:59and other which is operating in West
32:02Cornwall the bucket kept coming up again
32:04and again it seemed to be a focus only
32:06for my work but for their work as well
32:10you know it seems to be a deity that
32:14personifies that that rift or split in
32:18the veil between the worlds a
32:21personification of mystery and of magic
32:24associated with the sea and with storms
32:27that come in from the sea across the
32:30land and it is also go sonic spirit as
32:33well because farmers would leave
32:35mouthfuls of ale as offering to the
32:38bucker in the land I wouldn't I would
32:42never say it book
32:43and now this is a question for you
32:47wither wither or do now we have to
32:57define this for those work with buck
33:05today it seems to be very much the idea
33:08that luck with a dualistic spirit
33:11because you have Bukka do who is the
33:14black buck her more associated with
33:18storms and perhaps the the folkloric
33:21devil has a new as distinct from a
33:24church Devils very different thing and
33:27the chaotic forces of nature and you
33:31have Bukka quittin the the white Bukka
33:34the benevolent Bukka if you like so it's
33:40near they're two sides of the one thing
33:42the light in the dark sowing buck her
33:45you have a deity of balance and of Union
33:50and new perhaps for me the light betwixt
33:53the horns is a very good symbol of the
33:55union of that balance the two horns
33:57representing the two the light and the
33:59dark and then that mystic fire in
34:01between which is the union of the two
34:05deep mystic this is you know we just it
34:13we have we still have time to talk about
34:15all of this now let's jump again to
34:17tools I'm so sorry to the listeners
34:19because you know we could here we could
34:21be here like three hours and of course
34:23you know poor Gemma wouldn't just be
34:26talking forever now tools beyond the
34:31natural tools of wisdom force of the
34:33serpent that we know that you know and
34:35the waters in the wind and all that what
34:37other tools are are there to help us
34:40in the corner in the cunning and the
34:42cunning arts of the physical tools of
34:46course we convert the the troy stone
34:48they have been stone yes there are
34:52starved sore sticks that he used again a
34:56lot of the physical tools but used in
35:01the book are very much inspired by a lot
35:03of things in sisal Williamson's
35:05collection in the Museum of witchcraft
35:08because new he hope we put together this
35:11amazing collection of items that drew
35:15upon the work of West country wise women
35:18and cunning folk witches and these began
35:22all things I was fascinated in you go
35:24into the museum and these are all things
35:26that you just don't see anywhere else
35:28you don't read about them anywhere else
35:29they were very unique items which I
35:33thought wow here let's try some of these
35:35things and you put them into use and you
35:38have seems like the the talking stick
35:40where such advice is bearing one end of
35:44the stick into the ground any one of the
35:47forks of a stick you know so it's very
35:48much like the Mustang of modern
35:51tradition witchcraft native but the two
35:53forks press against your eyes and you
35:55feel for the pulse the energy pulse of
35:57the land and the spirit voices of the
36:00land what have you so you're a communal
36:03tool the communion with the land and the
36:06spirits of the land you do find knives
36:10and things that you find in other
36:11aspects of craft
36:13although these knives tend to be sharp
36:18often blunt knives that you find another
36:20craft traditions which to me makes sense
36:23because the name it's a cutting tool
36:26yeah
36:27you know having a blunt knife is like
36:29having a chalice with the hole in it it
36:31won't hold anything a blunt knife won't
36:32cut anything yes no certainly there were
36:37a wealth of tools there to be found in
36:39the book and again yeah these a lot of
36:41these are inspired by the collection
36:43successful Williamson mm-hmm now what is
36:49the role of the Peller staff within the
36:51circle because we talked about you know
36:54a whole lot of tools but there is the
36:58Peller staff is often you know commented
37:03and and it comes over and over again
37:06what is the role of the panelist half
37:10well again you find this in a lot of the
37:14old stories of Cornish witches of them
37:18using stamps to conjure spirits force so
37:22it's a conjuring tool it is it's a big
37:25one really it's also very much akin to
37:32Mustang it can represent the Horned one
37:35the older the Lorenz the portal between
37:39this world and the next
37:41mm-hm and of course you can have
37:43different stars you can have the ash
37:46staff which is very good for working
37:48with the world beyond the spirits you
37:51have hazel stars very good for
37:53divination and of course the dreaded
37:56black thorn staff for dealing with
37:59naughty people it's lasting
38:03so yeah the the palace staff the
38:07corniche which is staff today is it's
38:10very different to the the stang that
38:13perhaps you might find in say the
38:16cochran tradition of witchcraft which is
38:18simply the altar not simply the objects
38:21found them but it's also a hand tool a
38:25working tool now we talked about the
38:30tools now there is the witches comm-pass
38:32which is basically the compass is
38:35basically the circle of that hallow you
38:38know space that is created by now they
38:45do does the compass works always the
38:49same way I mean there's the pillar what
38:52the compass always the same way because
38:54you know you know the reference that we
38:56have is wicker of course and and you
38:59know you know that you know that
39:01everything is always the same and you do
39:03exactly the same way you do it clockwise
39:05etc etc is it possible to do it any
39:10other way and in the in this I mean it
39:13how how does the Pella Desert Inn and
39:16works it I can only speak from my own
39:20practice those I work with and certainly
39:25we do work got wise when we need to for
39:29generative rituals seasonal rituals for
39:33the growing half of the year mm-hmm
39:36these are very much clockwise or with
39:38the Sun which was
39:41which will start with the the waning
39:45moon and the dark of the moon and the
39:46waning tide of the year we do work
39:49against the Sun or anticlockwise no
39:52conjuration of the circle so yes no both
39:56ways are entirely possible so much more
39:59diverse now what is the what is the
40:06walking the round the walking around is
40:10very much like the new treading the mill
40:14again that you find in got cranium
40:18influenced craft somatic craft what have
40:22you mm-hmm
40:23it's um something again the time I
40:27encountered with my friends in East
40:29Anglia who wrote to me about um and a
40:32quiet soft mm-hmm I knew aleksander's
40:36did you that's lots of for teachers need
40:40the sand is covered they are circling
40:42around the fire with you and you know
40:45this is something I encountered when I
40:47first became involved with the
40:49traditional coven in Cornwall and it's
40:53it's a meditative technique it's um a
40:57technique of conjuration of invocation
41:00and in my carbon rights we always first
41:05circle against the Sun or anti-clockwise
41:08which is a gathering in it's a gathering
41:11in of the virtues of the spirits of the
41:15quarters and of the deity that we're
41:17working with it could be quite a long
41:20grueling process where you're intensely
41:24focusing upon the deity or the spirit or
41:28the virtue that you're calling upon for
41:29that particular working and that doesn't
41:32stop until either somebody collapses or
41:35this phenomena which indicates that that
41:38presence is there
41:39and then of course you have other rounds
41:43or mills which are with the Sun and
41:46these are more energetic and these are
41:48for raising those powers that have been
41:50called in these influences and virtues
41:53so yeah you have an anti-clockwise
41:56gathering in a stirring in and then a
41:59clockwise raising and intensifying and
42:01then sending it out now one of the
42:07things that really impressed me on the
42:10book is that you do talk about the the
42:13the role of the elderly or infirm which
42:17is something that normally it's really
42:19not talked about you know you don't
42:21really care but you do and and you do
42:25say you know they do have a role in in
42:31this this compass and this in the ritual
42:33itself and in you know what do they do
42:36with the elderly and the infirm well
42:40there's always the option they're not
42:42set aside write down for those who don't
42:53feel they are up to the the walking of
42:54the round to sit at the edge of the
42:56circle and drum because you know you can
43:00keep up the pace of the circle by
43:02drumming drumming isn't in itself is a
43:05repetitive meditative act so you can get
43:08out of that the same things you would
43:10get out of actually participating in the
43:12round so you know there's also the use
43:16of the the bull-roarer
43:17or wind rora which again there's another
43:19repetitive task returning spinning so in
43:23these very much things that people can
43:25do who perhaps don't have the stamina to
43:27to walk around and around and around and
43:32still participating in the tasks
43:36now let's talk about the trade tree fort
43:40law it's one of the things that we know
43:44over and over again was hammered to our
43:47heads either in the narrow Pagan
43:50community or the pinging community or
43:52you know any thing that you can see the
43:55wicker whatever you you know what have
43:57you it they always talk about the tree
44:00fort law and they always talk about this
44:03you know thing that you can is there a
44:07tree fort law in the palace craft or not
44:13well historically the palace and white
44:19which is again my old misnomer white
44:21witches you know they they were very
44:24capable of blessing and cursing and they
44:27did it
44:28you know Seth Williams so in a
44:30modern-day cunning man he was not
44:33adverse to doing some cursing if he felt
44:36somebody was needing it so no you really
44:40don't find that within historical
44:44Cornish craft and from my experience
44:46modern-day practitioners who have that
44:50knew that leaning towards that style of
44:52craft know they they're not adverse to
44:54casting when it's needed but it's very
44:56much you know a last resort kind of
44:58thing mm-hmm
44:59I suppose there is something akin to
45:03this we fold law because you know to be
45:06engaged in such work isn't it's not a
45:09pleasant way to spend your time or your
45:11energies no it's a draining thing said
45:15I believe if you are engaging a network
45:17there is a hefty cost to it yeah no
45:23right of access system you talked about
45:27this also and you have a right of
45:29exorcism to get rid of spirits from the
45:31place now I didn't I really quite didn't
45:34have the idea that this was something
45:36that was done but you know you you just
45:40you do say well yes there is a right of
45:42exorcism to get rid of spirits no how
45:46how does this process happens I mean you
45:49know each person has or each pillar has
45:52or each practitioner has their own way
45:54of doing the Rite of exorcism or is it's
45:57pretty much you know they know sort of
45:59certain things that have to be followed
46:02and and you know for instance where to
46:06send the spirits you know or something
46:07like that so is there a commonality of
46:10about it or it's pretty much
46:12individualistic I'm Spencer it's cool
46:15there's that you know the common goal of
46:18working but yes I suppose different
46:21practitioners certainly have their own
46:22approach mm-hmm the approach I wrote
46:26about was very much inspired by a
46:29Devonian card a cunning man Jack doll he
46:33wrote her a very good Rite of exorcism
46:36using the poppet so my my which was very
46:39much inspired by his work again I would
46:44say it's very much a last resort
46:46practice I'm much more for the idea of
46:50working with spirit houses if there's a
46:53troublesome spirit in a house it's very
46:55possible to create a spirit house a
46:58space just for that spirit and if you do
47:02that a troublesome spirit can become a
47:06spiritual house search in the hook if
47:07you provide them with a space they're
47:08happy with you know that troublesome
47:11behavior could cease and new
47:15they've got to space they're happy with
47:16your peeps I'm happy and entertained
47:18mm-hmm you know exorcism I think should
47:21be a very you know completely nice
47:24resulting for something absolutely
47:25drastic and horrible but in most cases
47:27you know we live alongside the spirit
47:31world we live in new homes sometimes
47:34where there were spirit presences and
47:35know they're part of the home yeah yeah
47:38I should always be gotten rid of
47:40automatically mm-hmm
47:42well but this is the this is the
47:44instinct of people they always sort of
47:46like bleach everything you know it's
47:48just like get rid of everything you know
47:49just don't care about the spirit so what
47:52yeah now how does one call down the moon
47:56I mean this note and this name is pretty
47:59much resonant with modern-day Wiccans
48:03and you know and it sounds like
48:06something familiar right how does one
48:09call down the moon and in Cornish which
48:12romantic witchcraft in my practice it's
48:17a combination of
48:20sessile williams against us all had a
48:23very good rich will he wrote about where
48:25you use a reflection of the moon in the
48:28sea and sitting on the top of a cliff at
48:32the full moon looking out at the sea the
48:34moon creates a beautiful pass of silver
48:37light towards you and
48:42he would look up to the moon all those
48:44who practices which would look up to the
48:45moon down to the sea up to the moon down
48:48to the sea and eventually the the orb of
48:52the moon would be seen to travel down
48:54the longest paths and up to the person
48:57and this could be for spirit
48:59communication or an act of divination
49:03you also find our Macs have joined on
49:06the moon in other modern traditional
49:08witchcraft streams where mirrors are
49:11used reflects the the moon into the the
49:15wine that's been drunk in the ritual or
49:18into a vessel of water again for
49:22divinatory purposes and in the case of
49:25the wine to partake of of the spirit of
49:27the moon no this is this is a very
49:33interesting I mean I can't you know I
49:35have so many questions you don't know I
49:37mean this book is you go into I mean we
49:41we couldn't we can't we have 10 minutes
49:44though but but we we can you know about
49:51the you know the festivals and all of
49:53that so let's talk a little bit about
49:54the festivals and just but before we go
49:57there and and I know that you have a
50:00chapter here which is very very
50:02beautiful it's called
50:04initiations anyone that that it's anyone
50:09right today they think that they have
50:12and because of the previous you know the
50:15previous history of the modern
50:17witchcraft movement they always think
50:21that they have to be initiated and if
50:24they want to be part of something or to
50:28be acknowledged as someone in that
50:30particular you know
50:33is this important well it can certainly
50:37be very valuable to be know acknowledged
50:41and initiated within a group or
50:43tradition I don't think it's the the
50:47initiator who bestows the initiation
50:50it's the the spirits the egregore of the
50:52group of the deity that's involved but
50:57again this is something that can be done
50:58on a solitary basis can you a lot of the
51:02traditional historical rites of
51:04initiation seem to have been solitary
51:07you have the old churchyard rituals
51:11involving toads and what-have-you the
51:13term knew these were solitary lights
51:17pacts with the old one and what have you
51:19Bert yeah I think initiation it is an
51:25acknowledgement of your entering into a
51:28working relationship with the spirit
51:30world the walking away from the new the
51:34normal mundane way of living onto a path
51:38of return a path back to the wild mm-hmm
51:41and to the other the other nurse a
51:44strangeness even passive power and what
51:47have you so initiations really you know
51:50it's the initial stats the decision to
51:52cross that threshold and that can be
51:55done alone it could be done with a group
51:58now from the traditional festivals what
52:01which one is your favorite can you tell
52:09us a little bit shortly but can you tell
52:12us a little bit about it and why do you
52:13like it again this is another Penzance
52:18tradition that was revived by Simon Reid
52:20and it has become this wonderful
52:23festival where the people in the
52:25community just throw themselves into
52:28creating the most wonderful costumes
52:31easing is the core tradition of Montell
52:34where people disguise themselves with
52:37masks and touches strips of torn fabric
52:41all over their clothing and it's it's
52:44just an astonishing visual cacophony of
52:48wonderful sights and sounds because as
52:50music musicians parading through the
52:52streets strange masked beasts Aussies
52:56giant green men we have a giant crow
52:59called old Ned and offs with a mere
53:07skull at the end there's a fire and
53:13somebody selected to do what's called
53:15choking the mark where a chalk figure is
53:19inscribed on a piece of ash wood and
53:22that's thrown into the fire to encourage
53:24the Sun to return what have you so that
53:26we have a you know a good waxing you
53:28have to come ladies and gentleman this
53:31is Joe McGary the author of traditional
53:36witchcraft a Cornish book of ways the
53:39Montell ritual it's actually here just
53:42in case that you were you know worrying
53:44that only you know the words of German
53:47no no it's it's right here it's it
53:48there's an explanation of it and then an
53:51introduction and then there is a
53:52mountain ritual yeah so it's it's you
53:56know you can get it in the book for
53:58those of you who do not know where to
54:01get it or where to go to get this this
54:05particular book
54:07you can go to Troy books Kyoto you okay
54:10now
54:11Jemma new works new books coming out we
54:15talked a little bit about it I mean you
54:17know you have one that it's the wished
54:19waters which is very good Equus Magica
54:22and the cult of the holy Wells and
54:24that's a very good one also it's three
54:26hands Brea's char masala it's another
54:29one which is very very good and this is
54:32like a compilation of a couple of things
54:35that you know that you got you know not
54:36also all Psalms but you know other
54:38things the black toad which weed will
54:41west country witchcraft mint and magic
54:43were coming again with you talking about
54:47this it's a stay tuned and then you did
54:52a whole lot of numerous contributions on
54:56many many books you know one of them is
54:59hands of apart to see and in dissented
55:02by Michael Howard and Daniel shackled so
55:06now if you want to get this book from
55:10Gemma Gary the best bet I mean you can
55:15go anywhere
55:15tell me your website is Gemma Gary dot
55:18zero UK so it's it's not Coco you said
55:22Co www Gemma Gary dot code UK and if you
55:28want to buy the book you can buy it from
55:29there but you can also buy it from Troy
55:31box directly in that's Troy books dot
55:33code are you okay now
55:36we have to tell this to people do you
55:38really want to be on top of everything
55:41that's coming out on Troy books you have
55:44to follow them on Twitter and this is
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55:50simple at Troy books and then you're all
55:53set for for the latest news so thank you
56:01so so much for being on that on the on
56:03the black chair
56:05you know and I'm just I don't know if it
56:07is a black chair that you're sitting on
56:09but it was a pleasure to have you on the
56:23black thank you thank you so much and
56:26we'll have you again on other titles
56:29that you've written in your author it's
56:32also to talk a little bit more about
56:36Cornish witchcrafts and magic and all of
56:40these passions that we share thank you
56:43so much for everyone into chatroom for
56:45being here wonderful audience we had 35
56:49people listening to this live live thank
56:54you so much we will be certainly back on
56:59another one with Gemma
57:05thank you
57:33you