“Now

 the  Writing  Starts”:  An  Interview  with  Adonis  

Jonathan  Guyer  
NYR  Daily,  16  April  2016  
 
 

 
 

In  the  Arab  world,  they  say,  everyone  is  a  poet.  And  everyone  knows  Adonis,  
the   Paris-­‐based   Syrian   exile   who   invented   the   Arabic   prose   poem   and   who  
has   frequently   been   mentioned   as   a   candidate   for   the   Nobel   Prize   in  
Literature.  

Since   2011,   he   has   also   been   a   controversial   figure   in   the   debate   about   the  
war   in   Syria.   As   the   Syrian   uprising   began   in   early   2011,   Arab   intellectuals  
awaited  Adonis’s  comment,  not  only  because  of  his  stature  as  a  poet  but  also  
because   he   is   Alawite,   the   sect   to   which   Syrian   President   Bashar   al-­‐Assad  
belongs.  In  June  of  that  year,  Adonis  wrote  an  open  letter  to  al-­‐Assad,  calling  
for   a   democratic   transition.   Yet   the   Assad   regime   had   already   killed   some  
1,400  civilians,  and  many  criticized  Adonis’s  response  as  too  little,  too  late.  

Now   eighty-­‐six,  Adonis   has   elaborated   his   views   about  the   failure   of   the   Arab  
Spring  in  a  regular  column  in  verse  for  the  Pan-­‐Arab  newspaper  Al-­‐Hayat,  and  
in   a   recent   book,  Violence  et  Islam.   It   was   released   in   France   in   November,   the  
same  month  as  ISIS’s  rampage  in  Paris  that  killed  130  people.  

I  met  Adonis  at  a  cafe  on  the  Champs-­‐Élysées.  

 
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Jonathan  Guyer:  At  the  beginning  of  the  Syrian  war  you  wrote  a  letter  to  
President  Bashar  al-­‐Assad.  What  would  you  say  to  him  now?  

Adonis:  Nothing  has  changed.  On  the  contrary,  the  problems  are  bigger.  How  
can  forty  countries  ally  against  ISIS  for  two  years  and  not  be  able  to  do  a  
thing?  Nothing  will  change  unless  there  is  a  separation  between  religion  and  
the  state.  If  we  do  not  distinguish  between  what  is  religious  and  what  is  
political,  cultural,  and  social,  nothing  will  change  and  the  decline  of  the  Arabs  
will  worsen.  Religion  is  not  the  answer  to  problems  anymore.  Religion  is  the  
cause  of  problems.  That  is  why  it  needs  to  be  separated.  Every  free  human  
believes  in  what  he  wants,  and  we  should  respect  that.  But  for  religion  to  be  
the  foundation  of  society?  No.  

JG:  When  was  the  last  time  you  visited  Syria?  

Adonis:  In  2010.  

JG:  Before  the  war.  Can  you  talk  about  the  atmosphere  then?  

Adonis:  I  don’t  know—I  hear  the  news,  just  like  you.  I  know  that  Syria  was  
destroyed,  but  for  what?  What  is  the  project?  Look,  the  revolutionary  must  
protect  his  country.  He  fights  the  regime,  but  defends  institutions.  I  heard  that  
Aleppo’s  markets  were  totally  destroyed.  This  wealth  was  like  no  other,  how  
do  they  destroy  it?  The  revolutionary  does  not  loot  museums.  The  
revolutionary  does  not  kill  a  human  because  he  is  Christian,  Alawite,  or  Druze.  
The  revolutionary  does  not  deport  a  whole  population,  like  the  Yazidis.  Is  this  
a  revolution?  Why  does  the  West  support  it?  

JG:  Your  views  on  the  Syrian  conflict  have  drawn  criticism  in  the  Arab  world.  

Adonis:  You  know,  there  are  many  Arabs  who  are  employed  by  the  
revolutionaries  and  they  always  criticize  me.  They  say  that  I  am  not  with  the  
revolution—[the  revolution]  that  destroyed  the  museums.  

JG:  What  is  the  revolution  and  who  is  with  it?  

Adonis:  Something  that  cannot  be  said…  A  writer  can  never  be  on  the  side  of  
killing.  It  is  not  possible,  you  know.  But  some  people  love  killing  and  violence.  
How  can  a  poet  or  a  painter  be  on  the  [same]  side  as  a  person  with  an  
explosive  belt  who  goes  into  a  school  and  detonates  himself?  How?  Those  are  
children.  How,  how  do  you  kill  them?  It  is  an  unimaginable  monstrosity.  My  
brother,  if  the  regime  is  tyrannical  then  fight  the  regime.  Do  not  fight  children  
and  schools.  Do  not  destroy  the  country.  Do  not  kill  innocent  people.  Fight  the  
regime.  It  is  humiliating.  To  belong  to  this  world  is  humiliating.  I  have  not  
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seen  anything  like  this  in  history,  to  destroy  a  country  entirely—like  Yemen—
just  to  put  in  place  an  imbecile  as  president…  

You  see  people  supporting  it.  Intellectuals.  How  can  you  fight  them?  They  
criticize  you  for  not  being  on  their  side.  You  have  to  become  a  monster  like  
them.  

JG:  Like  the  jihadists—  

Adonis:  Not  only  the  jihadists,  because  the  jihadists  are  part  of  the  people.  
The  people  who  do  not  want  this  should  announce  their  refusal  publically.  
Have  you  ever  read  a  single  official  statement  against  this?  There  are  
individuals  who  say  what  we  are  saying  now.  But  have  you  read  an  official  
statement  from  [an  Arab]  country,  from  a  prominent  political  party,  or  a  big  
group  against  what  is  being  done  by  the  jihadist  groups?  There  is  a  kind  of  
acceptance.  Patience  is  a  kind  of  acceptance.  There  was  not  one  single  protest  
in  any  Arab  country  against  what  is  happening.  What  is  the  meaning  of  this?  
They  kill  humans  and  sell  women  in  markets.  They  are  destroying  museums,  
the  greatest  human  achievements,  and  there  has  not  been  a  single  protest,  not  
a  single  statement  [against  it].  

JG:  In  your  new  book,  Violence  et  Islam,  you  wrote  that  ISIS  represents  the  end  
of  Islam.  Will  there  be  a  new  beginning?  

Adonis:  You  know,  we  have  to  remain  believers.  How  so?  If  people,  if  
humanity,  comes  to  an  end,  then  the  world  ends.  As  long  as  there  are  
individuals—what  I  am  saying  now  is  that  I  am  not  alone.  There  are  many  
individuals,  in  Egypt  and  other  countries,  who  say  what  I  am  saying.  This  is  
why  we  have  to  remain  confident  that  the  human  will  reach  a  stage  where  he  
will  find  better  solutions.  But  when  and  how  will  be  determined  in  time.  But  I  
can  say  that  the  Arabs  will  never  advance  as  long  as  they  think  and  operate  in  
this  old,  jihadist,  religious  context.  It  is  not  possible.  This  is  what  is  extinct,  
what  has  ended.  ISIS  is  the  last  shout.  Like  a  candle  about  to  go  out,  it  ends  
with  strength.  

The  renaissance  needs  time.  Our  society,  during  the  fifteen  centuries  since  the  
foundation  of  the  first  Islamic  state,  has  not  been  able  to  establish  a  society  of  
citizens.  With  a  citizen’s  duties  come  rights.  Until  now,  Arab  societies  are  
formed  of  individuals  who  carry  out  the  same  duties  but  have  different  rights:  
the  Christian  does  not  have  the  same  rights  as  the  Muslim,  for  instance.  
Fifteen  centuries.  How  can  we  solve  fifteen  centuries  in  a  week  or  two,  a  
month  or  two?  But  I  trust  that  the  time  will  come,  but  outside  this  context.  
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JG:  Does  change  require  a  new  engagement  with  the  West?  I  read  your  poem,  
“Desire  Moving  Through  Maps  of  Matter”  (1987),  about  the  Eiffel  Tower  
floating  in  the  Mediterranean  Sea,  and  a  conversation  you  wrote  between  Abu  
Nawas  and  Victor  Hugo.  The  bridge  between  Arabs  and  the  West—  

Adonis:  The  East  and  the  West  are  economic  and  military  concepts,  and  were  
created  by  colonialism.  We  can  say  geographically  that  there  are  East  and  
West.  Economics  and  colonialism  took  advantage  of  that.  

But  in  art  there  is  no  East  and  West.  You  see  it  in  the  paintings  of  Paul  Klee  
and  how  he  was  inspired  by  Tunisia  and  Eastern  Arabia.  You  see  it  in  the  
paintings  of  Delacroix  and  how  he  was  inspired  by  Morocco.  When  you  read  
Rimbaud,  you  see  that  the  best  thing  about  Rimbaud  is  that  he  is  not  a  
Westerner;  although  he  was  born  in  the  West,  he  was  completely  against  the  
West.  When  you  read  Abu  Nawas,  or  Abu  Al-­‐Ma’arri,  you  do  not  say  that  they  
are  Easterners  or  Westerners.  The  creative  ones  are  from  one  world,  
regardless  of  what  country  they  come  from  or  where  they  went.  They  live  
together  beyond  geography,  beyond  languages  and  nationalism,  and  they  
belong  to  the  creative  world  of  humanity.  In  this  sense  there  is  neither  East  
nor  West.  Whitman  is  just  like  Abu  Tammam  for  me.  He  is  a  part  of  me,  and  I  
am  a  part  of  him.  

JG:  But  the  West  has  developed  social  institutions  that  you  think  are  lacking  in  
the  Arab  world.  

Adonis:  The  problems  that  Europe  experienced  were  overcome  by  the  
establishment  of  new  societies,  completely  separate  from  religion  and  the  
church.  In  the  Middle  Ages,  the  ecclesiastical  courts  were  just  like  the  jihadists  
today.  They  killed  people  and  burned  them.  But  the  West  succeeded  in  
separating  church  from  state,  and  created  modern  societies.  We  are  still  in  
this  stage.  And  if  the  West  was  successful  in  this  separation  then  there  is  no  
reason  to  prevent  the  Arabs  from  separating  [the  two]  as  well.  We  are  
struggling  for  this  separation.  We  will  do  it  despite  everything  and  despite  
Western  politicians  as  well,  because  Western  politicians  unfortunately  
despise  Arabs,  and  despise  Arab  regimes.  Despise.  [The  West]  uses  these  
regimes  as  tools  to  execute  its  plans.  

JG:  So  how  can  an  effective  separation  between  religion  and  government  be  
achieved?  

Adonis:  Start  [again]  from  the  beginning.  It  needs  struggle.  Struggle  is  
necessary.  You  cannot  do  things  sitting  down.  You  have  to  struggle,  stand,  and  
fight.  Write  and  get  imprisoned.  I  wonder  why  Arab  prisons  are  not  full  of  
writers.  I  wonder  why,  because  it  means  that  Arab  writers  are  not  doing  their  
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jobs.  They  are  not  criticizing.  They  are  not  talking  about  deep  issues,  the  real  
issues  of  life.  They  are  not  talking  about  the  real  crises.  Hence,  my  criticism  is  
of  the  writers,  not  the  state.  The  writers  should  always  be  in  prison,  which  
means  they  are  telling  the  truth.  By  being  out  of  prison,  it  means  that  they  are  
not  telling  the  truth.  As  long  as  their  books  are  getting  banned…  we  can  say  
that  culture  has  a  role.  

JG:  But  can  poetry  address  the  terrible,  barbaric  violence  now  engulfing  Syria?  
One  thinks  of  Adorno’s  claim  about  poetry  after  Auschwitz.  

Adonis:  This  is  talk.  Auschwitz  was  a  catastrophic  disaster,  but  humanity  has  
gone  through  many  catastrophic  disasters.  On  the  contrary,  I  believe  that  
writing  starts  with  asking  questions  and  uncovering  the  sources  of  evil,  
wherever  they  come  from.  Because  with  Adorno’s  words,  he  prevents  us  from  
posing  questions  and  forces  us  to  accept.  This  is  wrong.  I  do  not  agree  with  
him.  Now  the  writing  starts,  after  Auschwitz.  

JG:  What  about  writing  poetry  during  the  Syrian  civil  war?  

Adonis:  You  cannot  compare  the  bomb  with  the  poem.  You  should  not  draw  
this  comparison.  Any  ignorant  bullet  can  change  a  regime,  any  despicable  
bullet  can  kill  a  great  person,  like  Kennedy,  for  example.  You  cannot  draw  
such  a  comparison  because  it  is  fundamentally  wrong.  Making  poetry  is  like  
making  air,  like  making  perfume,  like  breathing.  It  cannot  be  measured  by  
materialistic  standards.  This  is  why  poetry  despises  war  and  is  never  related  
to  it.  But  after  the  war  is  over,  it  is  possible  to  contemplate  the  corpses,  the  
rubble,  the  destruction,  the  ruins.  Then  one  can  write  something,  but  it  is  
[still]  an  element  of  the  war.  

JG:  We  are  told  that  ISIS  has  written  poetry,  that  Osama  bin  Laden  wrote  
poetry.  

Adonis:  This  is  not  poetry.  It  should  not  be  considered  poetry—definitely  not.  
Because  poetry  is  a  social  phenomenon.  When  culture  is  a  part  of  everyday  
life,  everyone  is  a  poet  and  everyone  is  a  novelist.  You  now  have  thousands  of  
novelists.  But  if  you  found  five  who  are  good  to  read,  then  you  are  in  a  good  
place.  In  America…  there  are  thousands  of  novels;  you  will  find  five  or  six  
good  ones,  and  the  rest  is  garbage.  The  same  goes  for  the  Arabs.  All  Arabs  are  
poets,  but  95  percent  of  them  are  rubbish.  

JG:  You  wrote  recently  about  immigration  as  an  important  part  of  Arab  culture.  
We  now  face  an  immigration  crisis  in  the  Middle  East  and  Europe.  Can  you  talk  
about  that?  
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Adonis:  I  see  immigration  as  caused  by  two  things:  either  there  is  no  work  or  
there  is  no  freedom—no  work  or  no  freedom.  So  the  citizen,  or  the  human,  
looks  for  a  place  to  work  and  be  free.  And  Arab  countries  are  poor.  For  two  
hundred  years  we  have  been  unable  to  establish  a  single  good  university  or  
research  institution,  and  we  have  great  resources.  We  spend  them  on  useless  
weapons.  We  buy  weapons,  and  we  buy  planes;  we  even  buy  pilots  to  fly  the  
planes  and  fight  for  us,  like  Saudi  is  doing  in  Yemen.  

The  world  is  mud.  We  are  primitive.  We  are  still  in  the  Middle  Ages,  and  you  
are  asking  questions  of  modern  times.  Do  not  be  fooled  by  the  [foreign]  cars  
or  the  American  University  in  Cairo.  We  cannot  produce  a  car.  We  cannot  
produce  a  coffee  cup.  How  are  we  modern  then?  Western  politicians  are  
fooling  us.  You  are  the  intellectuals.  You  should  know  the  facts.  

JG:  In  your  recent  writing,  you  have  raised  questions  about  Arab  identity.  For  
instance,  “Who  am  I—who  are  we?”  (Al-­‐Hayat,  10  December  2015).  

Adonis:  It  is  difficult  not  only  for  the  Arab.  It  is  difficult  for  the  human  being,  
broadly  speaking.  Because  religion  has  provided  answers:  the  Christian  is  
Christian;  the  Jew  is  Jewish;  the  Muslim  is  Muslim.  Each  “other”  is  under  
scrutiny,  under  inspection.  If  he  believes  in  what  I  believe,  then  I  recognize  
him;  and  if  he  does  not  believe,  then  I  do  not  recognize  him.  That  is  why  the  
concept  of  the  other  in  monotheistic  religions  is  undefined.  Thus,  for  the  
unreligious  person,  the  concept  of  identity  is  complex.  

There  are  suggestions  concerning  this  issue  among  the  Arab  Sufis.  You  know  
that  Rimbaud  said,  Je  est  un  autre.  I  is  another.  The  Arab  Sufi,  a  thousand  
years  before  him,  said,  “The  Other  is  I.”  You  know,  in  Islam,  the  Muslim  
inherits  his  identity,  like  he  inherits  his  home,  like  he  inherits  his  field,  like  he  
inherits  his  father’s  money.  Identity  is  imposed  on  him  a  priori.  The  Sufis  said,  
No,  identity  is  a  continuous  creation.  The  human  shapes  his  identity  by  
shaping  his  work  and  ideology.  And  if  identity  is  a  creation,  then  the  “I”  does  
not  exist  individually;  it  exists  with  the  other,  and  the  other  is  a  part  of  it.  For  
me  to  be  myself,  I  have  to  pass  through  the  other.  Likewise,  identity  in  Sufism  
is  infinitely  open.  

As  long  as  a  person  is  alive,  his  identity  is  continuously  renewable.  If  he  were  
a  poet,  his  identity  would  not  end  even  if  he  died,  because  his  texts  are  
renewed  and  reviewed  continuously,  and  are  read  in  different  ways,  so  his  
identity  is  open.  In  this  sense,  too,  poetry  is  against  religion.  It  cannot  be  with  
religion.  I  mean,  you  will  not  find  one  poet  in  Arab  history  who  was  religious.  
It  is  impossible  to  say  This  is  a  big,  grand  poet  and  that  he  is  religious.  If  he  
were  religious,  he  would  be  like  the  Sufi  who  calls  himself  a  believer  and  
believes  in  a  god  that  is  completely  different  than  the  official  Islamic  God—
   7  
the  God  of  tenet,  law,  and  institution.  So  the  true  power  of  the  human  being  is  
not  in  giving  an  answer;  the  real  power  is  in  posing  questions.  

JG:  Seventy  years  ago,  you  chose  the  name  Adonis.  

Adonis:  No,  I  created  a  name  to  exit  the  world  of  religion.  

JG:  But  now  the  name  has  become—  

Adonis:  A  crime!  

JG:  Why?  

Adonis:  It  is  criticized  for  not  being  an  Arab  or  Muslim  name.  Unfortunately,  
religious  culture  has  debased  all  of  culture.  It  has  become  shallow.  

JG:  What  then  is  the  future  of  Arab  culture  in—  

Adonis:  I  told  you,  as  long  as  death  and  love  are  there,  art  will  remain.  Don’t  
worry.  The  readers  are  fewer,  but  that’s  okay.  Nietzsche,  the  agitator  of  
modern  thought,  was  not  published  [in  his  time].  No  one  knew  him.  This  is  
the  destiny  of  art,  always.  Many  get  published  and  sell  millions,  but  their  
books  belong  in  the  trash.  

—Translated  from  the  Arabic  by  Jonathan  Guyer  and  Sharaf  Al-­‐Hourani    

 
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