reddit @ ristomanm.. —- @) PCCD) Posts Q sea oh QUESTIONING TP Ah a oN moe @ Pe @cetcons) fF) + }ONSTRUCTIVE DIALOGUE QUESTIONING AHMADIYYA ISLAM wi Mental inferiority of women: Rational Religion’s poor research & an Ahmadi woman tying herself in knots [thought thi deserved anew post becauseit relates toa discussion on an old thread that’s nat as visible any more. It shows haw people dort bother todo ther research and how they can get ‘themselves into quite a mess with sloppy apologetics. Rational Religion, Someone on this subreddlt shared link to this article by Rational Religion: Here ste English translation of the relevant passages in Essence of Islam: Passage 1: The answeris that men and women are not equal, Universal experience has shown ‘that man Is superior to woman in physical and mental powers There are exceptions, but, ‘exceptions dont make the rule. justice demands that man and wife want to separate, the right to decide should lie wit the husband, Passage 2:Just as Islam doesnot approve ofa woman marrying without the consent of her ‘quardian, ie, her father, brother or other near male eatve, ikewiseit does not approve of woman to separate from her husband onher own It orders even greater caren case of divorce, and enjoins recourse tothe authorities to pratect her from any harm she may do to herself ‘on account of her lack of understanding age 214 and 216, The Essence of Islam - Volume I [According to Rational Religion when Mirza Ghulam Ahmad take about the mental inferorty of women he stalking bout psychological resilience, not intllec. 1f you read the original Urdu version of Passage 1 that Is being referred to inthe Rational Religion article Mirza Ghulam Ahmad says “Mar jismani and imi tagaton main auraton se barh kar ha” (se page 286 Chasma e Marifaat. lume 23 Rashaniikhazain. Men are superior to ‘wome® in their jsm (body) and i (knowledge, “lim refers to knowledge, not psychological reslence, In Passage 2 he talks about women causing themselves ‘nugsaan’(harrVoss} on account of theie“aq" i they were allowed to divorce without recourse to authority (ee page 289 ofthe same book. Aq” cefers toa persons intelectual capabilties not psychological resiience, Anyone who is familiar with Urdu might already know these words as they are not uncommon. If {yout dort understand Urdu you can ask an Urdu speaker and they will confirm that both the ‘words im* and “ag” ae related tothe intellectual realm and not the psychologcaemational realm ora person’ ability to deal with stress. (Dictionary definitions: im and ac ‘The point about women belng weaker in terms af psychological resilience is something that ‘Mirza Ghulam Ahmad belevs as well nd this covered elsewhere there's a passage in Maltuzat think where he talks about women being less courageous). This particular passage from Chasma e Marifast, Volume 23 Roohani Khazain, however definitely talks about itelectaal capabilities "give Rational Religion the benefit of the doubt here that they havent done thelrhomewerk in reading and propery understanding the original Urdu and ae simply using ther creativity to interpret this passage and isnot that they are being dishonest and know that Ahmadis ‘eadishare their aries without bothering to actualy look a the original sources Further discussion @ tfistam _abmadiyya ‘Do you question or have you eft [Abmadlyyt/siam? This subredit primarily a support community for both ‘questioning Ahmadis and ex AnmaclsiexMuslims. It also provides a space to engage in open discussion and religious critique. Wee different other forums, We insist on respectful and polite dialogue, # 300 a Created Jan 18, 2018 @ 200¢ons Community topics © 25 Religion and Spirituality ~ Islam Ahmadya Cae marage/dting ED ees cap c= 1. be respectful, ateligent, and ¥ 2.YouareresponsibleforyourownArter correcting tne person vio nad shared te arte sne ie not continue wath tn tne oF argument about psychological resiience: She instead seemed to adopt anew argument about the lack of educational opportunites that ‘women have historically had as an explanation for womens inferiority in knowedge. raised 3 ‘ew questions about the implications of her newfound position but she wasn’ able to answer any ofthese questions as she Geary hadet thought her new position through propery. Here are my questions: "omen need to be protected from any harm they may dof themselves ‘becouse oftheir og and tel inferior im’ You think tis is resueof not having educavonal ‘opportunites historical, Does that mean tht women who have acquired " She seemed to relive thatthe ‘educational opportunites” argument that she hae introduced herself o try to explain ifferences in knowledge between ‘men nd women was problematic. Merwe had conclided ths discusion she went onto edit her previous comment to suggest that my framing ofthe ssue was incorrect as education {doesnt support a woman with divorce. The funny thing with that is chat it wast me that had brought up ‘educational opportunities in the fst place and you can see from my questions to her that Ive aways questioned whether educaton ie relevant toa persons ability to divorce! tis Mirza Ghulam Ahmad that made the connection between knowledge and abit to divorce autonomously and she was the one who made the connection between knowledge and education, She also made the erroneous assertion that if the Jamat believed in women’ intellectual inferiority there would be educational achievement awards for women, She dit seem to realise that its perfectly posibie for contradictory positions to exist Le. for Mirza Ghulam [Ahmad o have believed inthe 1800s that women were intellectual inferior and forthe present ‘day Anmaciyya Jomat to celebrate the achievements of women because they are saivy enough {to know that eling women that they are stupid in this day and age isnt realy going to help thei cause, ‘wo of her arguments had completely flopped now-o she started beating around the bush and talking about the vulnerability of women in divorce proceedings and their need for protection ‘rom oppressive and manipulative men. Remember the purpose ofthe discussion was to see how she reconciles her belief tha there are no intellectual differences between men and women vith what Wieza Ghulam Ahmad has ead about wiemen in” and "aq Him and "aq are what make a woman incapable of making this decision on her own, we accept that these relate to imtellec not emotions andif educational opportunities cannot give women the “tin and “aq” ‘that's needed, how ese could you explain these diferences other than that wornen by thet nature areinferior in “len and “ag Le areintellectualy inferior? {Whilst this escussion wasnt really about divorce proceedings ast the background context to Mirza Ghulam Ahmadts words Ill briefly addres her comments about this simply forthe sake ‘of completeness. To her point about protection, anyone (ale or ferale) whois married to an ‘oppressive or manipulative person and fels that they need supper in dvorce proceedings should absolutely be ented to have the choice te have an advocate, bodyquard or whatever ‘lets they need with them. Im not sure anyone would argue with that. Making support availabe for vulnerable people and giving them the choice to have that support is however {uit ifferent to the proposition here which involves paternalistic setup for wornen, Where a female inktates a dWorce *khula” twill always be referred to an authorty and the judge wl “surmmon the husband and ask him why the wife should not be allowed to leave him’ and "fhe finds the complaint is justified, he would decree cissolution ofthe marrage’ ithe doesnt find the complaint justified then ie would follow that he can refuse to grant her the divorce in order “to protect her (see page 316 The Essence of [slam Volume ih. A mars right to divorce talaq” is absolute and nat qualified in the same way. Aman does not need o submit his grounds for divorce to an authorty and even fan authority was involved they cannot prevent him rom ‘exerching his right to divorce, because a man has enough “mand “alto be able to make this decision on his own, Anyway she ws now clearly desperate to get avtay from having to discuss the actual point at hand (womens inferiority) and instead wanted to opine on how wonderful and just the Islamic ivorce system is. By the end you can see that shes totaly confused, rambling and has got hersef into quite a mess. I youre interested in ths back and forth you can rea ifr yours Superior Mental Powers of Men | thinkit might be easier to just accept thatthe Ahmadiyya ele is that God made women inferior in both intellect and emotions to men, rather than tying to make your religion fi your ‘own notions or those of society around you, because that will ony leave you looking ike 2 headless chicken who i easily comered in the end. An urdu speaking Ahmadi man on Twitter 3. Refrain from personal attacks . 4 Follow posting guidelines ¥ 5. Submit posts that are relevant . 6.Donot post obscure and outlandish ‘claims about aperson without credible ‘tation. 7.Dornoterall diseussons and create unaecessary drama Doyou question Anmaciyyat—or Islam gonerally—as viewed through te lens of frmacyae? ‘hi oth support emmy and place for youtsengagein open dsassio and religious ‘too oer forums semingly dedicated tothe ‘gue of Aad ore overrun by nature oss ced with asco gossip and sensor hatin 7 Anaya bashing and irl Wire diferent We nist o espectfl and polte ‘radia lan or Aral Muslin wl be removed We denture em e'qain hee proponents of Anadis Rate isto wn gy Weiehto foster ecusson tat haps people bigot. Fe almost alo us, Ana Musins ae ‘hepeopein eur ives whem we love the most. ‘urna ipl: Challenge ess. catenge your ingocerinaton Love people youve ef ahmoayat tare il usin ae ‘ano promote lms ely othe place foryou. We ake te approsch tat the that ty extension ol variants of sam re untrue. Thai, weackowee hat Anmadyats Irough not respects and as such nmadiyt sn trom, hen none of For beteing Mustins who wish to etigue Aimadiytspectcay we eemmend you si Uuzxahmads erate you wane onsnes tote nove etssncf 9 mare (Quranst approach we reorimend you have those seasons on fdas, becouse M0 longer acscssion that focused on Aha Many of us here ace cA tees {ren then hind Honeveevenfyou conser Yousefa beeing mad Ms, whatever fears you ae welome here ou ar elcome Guestors We be crmunty ots ub wl ok Tress sae our street isor rd rd ‘that supporte his beliefs. suspect thats what you would get from someone wh has actually read the original books of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and who didn feel the need tobe evasive about his more controversial views. I itbetter tobe dishonest and have a palatable position or tobe honest and have an unpalatable postion I dort ely know. thnk this a dllemma that Dellevers who dip their toes into the waters of religious nique face. Im Just grateful dort have to deal with the mental torment of picking one of those any more because they re both prety rubbish in my opinion, Wcaconmants @& Giehward A shue Y spires HRemme Sram & O What are your thoughts 24D Ghomne ED Daningtd0 © 1 point 2 hau gs Very well writen, As someone who is wel versed in Uru, you are right about the meanings ‘film and agal Also, in my experience, Ihave never encountered any woman who was in a hurry to get divorced. & woman never wants to break up her home unless absolutely necessary and afterall avenues have been exhausted. [have seen women being stuck in abusive loveless marriages al their fe and still nt verce while meni our society divorce {or stupid reasons ike for a younger woman, of For something as stupid as we can't cook ‘good rtf takes an incredible amount of psychological resilience to survive as a woman in ‘this society even in this day and age. A woman's AUTONOMY is her biggest saviour from ‘manipulative and oppressive men, not more men dictating her decisions when they have abused women for centuries and continue todo so whether ts close elatves or strangers! Infact, in my opinion i's men who need semeane presiding over them when they think of divorce because men in our society have been given too much power and end up making stupid, hasty decisions sometimes duet that. |Lmadea posta marth ago dlscussing said passages from The ssence of sam, in which 1 ‘ried to focus on the blatant misogyny prevalent in Ahmadi cukure, where there ideologles may stem from, and why Ahmadiyya’ ideas of patriarchy do not complement the modern (atleast westerm word ‘Great job breaking down the Urdu, I wish my Urdu wasnt trash so I would be able to break ‘down the exaet meanings of so many orginal Ahmad writings | never understood Ahmadi Apologetics pecially to diceutcons like this, especialy some female Ahmacis know personally. The oppression is right in ther fae, clear-cut, yet they {deny the oppressions existence and label “Feminist” or present some argument for “aferent but equal status, (Reply lve Auard_ Share Roport Save Mf Remove spam @ Lock Everyday [spend on this subreddit become a stronger Feminist al ike the leaders of my Jamaat. Ths beautiful quote of the Promised Messiah reminds me ofthe similarly inspiring message of llazrat Mirza Masroor Ahmed: “The saying with regard to the weakness of mental strength Is also net intended to be isparaging: rather, it refers tothe simplicity and gulblity of women. The proof forthe {ac that women are gulible has been provided by themselves in this madern world. The ‘way the Western man has misused women by offering them the delusion of freedom fs self. gies + Welcome + uc Moderation Approach * Lesser Known Positions ofthe ‘Ahmadiyya Musim Jamalat + Noteworthy Content * How To Formal Reston + oy ona tow ee Abmaaye om + 201nition + 2018 Eition + 2020.sition Social Meals + Youtube * (ciltespesch ahmadya: lots of ‘golden nuggets in these older posts ur Fens + (asia ahmadiyya_de: German ‘edition + (exnuslin: exMuslim subreddit + Social Ahmadiyya: Facebook Group ctv 8056 + Beahmad! Gidin Secret + Thoughts of Dying Ex-Ahmadi + CEB: Counc of ExcMuslins of Brain + AMIN: Be Muslims of North America ‘+ Muslimish: Mustimish + Recognizing the Messiah by Nuzhat Haneef ‘Sacro the Caliphs Gaze by ‘Nicholas Evans + The-Things We Think by Sohall Ahmad * Modecate Fundamentals by ‘Muhammad Afzal Upal + Ourtull booklist eanmal Podesete * Leaving Ahmadiyya & Islam with ‘Reason on Fath + Courageous Heart for Authenticty + Conversation with an ex [hac] ‘Musi + Ourtull podcasts ist chat Rooms/becordthe chosen ane, the most truthful of all Men have kicked her out ofthe four walls of her delegating ther financial responsibility ther, Hence, she Is having totale men in places where shea to deal with al kinds of men * Why we lft Ahmadiya stam who sometimes try to cast glances athe from various angles in ode to full their hs. f + Women and Isam/abmadiya ‘one looks further, one sees thatthe claim of the Western word ofthe equality of men and : sam womens hollow claim, + Counter Analagetics ‘Thais hry any country nthe Western word where teres an equ numb of rnin $ndmen nse parame syste that rns the machinery ofthe government Inthe ‘same Western countries, at cores of paces, the financial packages given to male employees regenera tt ghento ween vb pertrm he same os. hse tings rca dence oe gly of women [ wmessicerwenoos | ‘tpsuimnvalnakam ora/answerst-everyday scues-partil esanonfath xan emus ‘Thisis True Feminism ofthe True slam: women are simple, gull, lacking in mental yBarbesochechovart raha esi ponnivy bicemist Im reply lve Award Share Report Save memove spam @ Lack reckaphs exam exmestin 4 ouTsIE THE B06 10 pins 23haU Age Wdoubtngaimadya examad exmesin “¥ Doyou think NusratJehan begum was gullible who was 19 years old when she married 50 iit SR years old Mirza Ghulam Ahmad? Do you think because af her being so young compared {othe founder of Ahmadiyat, she was simple, gulible and lacked in mental powers that erohmad shove she came unde the influence ofa mature old man? Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’ first wife athabeemsiram Furmat Bibi was his cousin and also being his age fellow nat so gulible and thats why kept on opposing the founder? aon Mirza Nasir Ahmadis second wife known as Appa Tahra was around 50 years younger view ALL MopeRAToRS ‘than him when she was manipulate into a marviage by convincing her that its a divinely ‘uided mariage that wil bring lts of blessings. The marriage lasted just 2 manths, when ‘the third Khalifa ied, and that poor woman stil alive and remained childless and lp roost husbandless al he ite 1 oe soa ‘You make convincing point. think should agree with you that women are gulibe when et coins Pres ‘they come under the influence of powerful manipulative men, because althey want sto Redd Premium Adverse ‘exercise contol in one way or another esa cs es You should aso lookinto the martiages of Mirza Bashirudin Mahmood Ahmad with 7 corte oly _gulble women, most of those simple women aso had huge age gap from te Kaif, Princ Poly Mosrotey ‘making them more gulible and easier to confine inside the four walls to exercise ‘maximurn control Red nc © 202. igh eserves Aeyhsmemposta 3 poets 13 hen 0 'As Scandinavian nations and New Zealand have adopted equal pay rules fr all genders in law I wonder how many years you stil have left to use thi argument ras ‘4 semenctSnony © tpt tase # Would be interesting to hear the Ahmadi women perspective on this. fm reply clue Award Share Report Save memove spam @ tack 4 Mooseloer7< 11 pts 75 nos oBo 4 Mymom and kala actualy agree that women are inferior to men, They Iteraly sale that ‘women are greedy, jealous, emotional, and seis wile men are responsible, understanding, smart and rational, The stuff ve heard from ahmagi women relating to ‘matters ike this ibang, $F OUTSIDE THE BOLE 5 point 23hour aD $ How many o us wil be ready to raise our daughters and see them believing that theyrd are by nature greedy, jealous, emotional, seiish etc? If this s what we let the gris belleve or make them believe, chen we wl surely be raising next generation of women with the same values im reply Shae — memore spam @ tock SomeplerSrony © 2poins 28 hutsage Yes [can imagine that, Butwhat I meant is would be Interesting the counter arguments the newer generation women gives. ‘Your mom and khala most likly wil be from Pakistan and allmuslim women in such countries from the past generation says the same, Im reply Shae memore pam @ tock 4 Parievarang exam ecmusion © 5 pits You mean to say that Islam and Ahmadiyya changed over the years somehow? Doesn't reconcile withthe statement of Mirza Masroor Ahmed who clearly thinks he is smarter than the average woman... rnically. Als, aren’ Mums and Aunties ‘more relevant age group to Mirza Masroor Anmad? Or would you rather (Grandmums? 4 SomepacaSnony © paint 22 house & Not didnt say that. Not sure why all of you ae taking ithe wrong way. | believe such statements are sexist and wanted to see what the younger ‘generation of Ahmadi women whe have grown up in the west reconcile with uch stancesin Islarn or Abmadyyat (which fs alot beter than mainstream Islam, butstil not up to par withthe western standard) 1 di not aak this question ta negate someone's personal experience (iF there ‘was any personal experience in the post ar come here to argue agains it Because I cannot A mania 2 2% “havent interacted with you before and I don't know if others are going of ‘other interactions, but I think your comments on here are perfectly Fine. A PartearPins mad mtn <2 points 22 hau ee | Tatiove such statements are sonst and wanted to see what the younger ‘generation of Ahmadi women wie have grav up in the west reconcile with such stances in slam or Ahmadiyat (whichis lot beter than ‘mainsizeam Islam, but stl not up to par with the western standards, ‘So the experlances af older women or those nt ving nthe West are not meaningful? Iniialy I iént understand why you need common people perceptions when {they ae not taken as theological authority, so that’s what I asked you about "Naw i just seems ike you are “other“ing people, Perhape i's because those people aren't relevant to you. Maybe itis not a conscious decision you are ‘aking, but ts jst bad taste really 4 Semeiacsnony pant 2 hours ‘Not sure what you ae trying to imply. mentioned young momen because they tend to be mare progressive than the alder ones, especially {om Pakistan or other countries, And I was asking how do they reconcile wth such statements in Ahmadiyya erature 1 stil dont understana the confusion you have regarding my statement. ‘thought was supporting the nan Ahmad tance in my commentA Pareculaaing aha exmustin © 5pons 29 Hous ¥ | Ant was asking how do they reconcile with such statements in Ahmadiyya literature 1 stl dont understan the confusion you have regarding my statement. thought [was supporting the non Ahmad! stance in my ‘You initial aie Would be interesting to hear the Ahmadi women perspective on ‘Then you added the dealt {ut what I meant eit would be interesting the counter arguments the newer generation women gives, think at the end ofthe day, yeah, you can be interestedin the opinion ‘of one set of women, or maybe a more specific set of women, or ‘maybe an even more specifi set of individual, but sri all lrelevant People in itferent contexts would exhibit cifferent reactions. The kind of permutations of opinions over ime i potentially Infinite, What coula be the wtlty of opinions of a speci set of people In this case? “The response of apologists is more or less predictable. Some apologetic are culturally informed, some are relevant tothe culture ‘they are nested in, Some are rooted In sheolagical erature, some in moe laypeople approaches, ItJust becomes acase of people who cannot live without this and ‘hose who cannot live with this. Thase whe cannot ive wthaut stay ‘Alymadi and seek apologetics of al forms. Usually their responses are informed by te iterature they come across. havent come across a «tcl thinking apologist ever “Those who cannet lve with leave Ahmadiyya. Their experiences and ‘opinions are shat down bythe offiial movement and those who seek to support. ts not apracess of healing and mutual understanding cevenifexAnmadis wish it. There are packets instances and events “which build some hope, butts quickly taken away as people divide into the binary camps again. Ther iso spectrum as such. So Itruly don't know what your exercise Is realy after. Ahmadi apologetics, ‘Ahmadi women apologetics, Ahmadi western young women apologetics, 1dontreally get what it's about Ahmadi women even the ol Pakistani ones, canbe progressive and reconcile thelr cognitive dszonance with te clique they extn ‘They otherize the less progressive women and claim to fllow the ‘more authentic teachings. similariy, Ahmadi women, even the young ‘Western residents, can be conservative and sicko the original texts Maybe your curiosity has some utlity and ve just grown bitter about it In that case, my apologies, fm Reply Share = momove spam @ tock A symha te borme © point 20 see where youre going with ths. Nt sure why you're being atacked, Am Reply Share + RE memave Spam @ Lock 4 MooeanerT 3 pits 23 ue Yeah that’s true But ve heard similar argument fom younger ahmad women ‘00. Mysister is 21 and she has similar beliefs. The things are ear at young ljna events are toa much . pam @ tock 4 Somepaeesnony © 1 pont 28 hours agoAgain, you might be correct, But viting on Ahmadi women to answer. As we men must let women to answer questions about women, ‘mi roply Share = Remove spam @ tock + edited 19 hours g0 + vihy would be at alana eventfiwas.a man? 4 Mactloer 3 pots 19 hou ¥ Pmawoman too 4 sorotceSoomy © 1 pit ADhous eo Not hmadtwomen tho? me Feply share Remove HB Seam @ Lock 4 detenrecate129 © Opsits tha & Sowomen arent jealous people? Lol 4 Mooslorer7 <1 paint -29hous 99 $ And what they said was directly in response tothe quote from essence of Islam, wreply Shae HE emere Spam @ Lock 4 seine 269.0 7 pe 23haur go -# Wy do you waste your time lurking here? All you dots deny peoples experiences on every post. fw reply Shae = Remove spam @ tack 4 Poriclsing erahmadhecmuain 3 point 22howeaee $A the seminal question! Im reply Shae oH Romore pam G Lock 4 Someplacesnony 0 pits 23 hus + Where di do that? Im reply Shae ~~ memore spam @ Lock Tea O pins 22 to. " She seemed to realise thatthe educational opportunities argument that she had introduced herself to try to explain ferences in knowledge between men and women was problematic,” 1 actually never made this argument. Iwas raising the point that Islam doesn't diferentiate in terms of acquisition of knowledge or educational opportunites. * Remember the purpose ofthe discussion as to seehow she reconciles her belie that ‘there are noncelietual ferences becween men and women with what Mirza Ghulam [Ahrnad has said about women’ lin and “ag. fl and “agi ae what make awaman incapable of making this decision on her own, we accept that these relate to intellect nat ‘emotions and if educational opportunities cannat give women the “in” and “ag that is needed, how ese could you explain these aferences other than that women by thelr nature are inferior inl and"aq" Le, are ltelecualy inferior? Its prety simple andthe ark of contradiction in my responce can be summarzedin two words: Context maters The situation under which you are to employ your mental faculties ‘or*agh is one of heightened emotions inthe case of divorce vs everyday stuatons. At the ‘ik of stating the obvious, women have some strengths that men don’t and men have some strengths that women don't. Any|ust system should take those differences into account. Fee free to read the orignal pst and your ensuing srawman argument. Any unbiased‘eager can see tne way you maxe unreasonable inrerences trom wnat nave sa, UE a0nt ‘expect the herd behavior on tis forum as being the type of environment thats conducive toreaching sensible conclusions buona? 2 soxnt Shou a0 te 7h ago % “Tacually never made ths argument. was rasing the point that islam doesnt bferertiae in terms of acquisition of knowledge or educational opportunities, Ok, ie would help it you could explain why were youmaking ths pint. Was there something I said in my original comment that you were responding to about educational ‘opportunites unde Islam? I ant see where Ihave mentioned education so please show me. Or are you saying twas simply a totaly random comment that had nething to do vith my previous comment? ‘The situation under which you are to employ your mental faculties or "aq!" is one of heightened emotions in the case of divorce vs everyday situations” Hos Mirza Ghulam Ahmad said anywhere tha a womaris “gl fs in situations of helghtened emotions only? The fact that he refers ro women’ intelectual capabiities tice and never qualifies them as being inferior or detective only in situations of heightened emotions as you are suggesting s quite strange. Anyway youmay have also seen an extract that DoubleMomin posted in this thread from Mirza Masroor Ahmad, He talks about women’s ‘weakness of mental strength ina afferent context (theres no ‘mention of dlvorce) and I cannot see any suggestion thathe believes women’s intelectual ‘apabilies ony fallin tuations of heightened emotions, It would seem to me tha the ‘Ahmadiyya Jamat sees women's mental nferionty 35 a more persistent tat than you are making it out to be ‘wnat really wantto knows, do you honestly feel that because you area woman you aren’ capable of coping in stressful tuations as well as men? Do you believe that ifyou ‘were inan unhappy marriage, you wouldnt beable to make decision about divorce autonomousiy without a man evaluating your complaint and determining if was Jstied whereas your husband simply on accaunt of being a man could make tis {cision on his own? If you reall feel that, that's very sad and I hope you wil build more confidence in yours 4 womipey oot shows a9 $ 0k, itwould hep ifyou could explain why were you making this point.” Sure. Ihave answered this before and dont lke repeating myself, but I believed Ie was important to raise the point that seeking knowledge or mis equally emphasized for both genders in Islam since your reply included a reference tolim and! think we should look at other contexts where the same concept has been brought up before ‘making a general conclusion fram a statement sad in one context. * Has Mirza Ghulary Ahmad said anywhere that a woman's "aq" falls in stations of heightened emotions only? ‘Thisie why {suggested looking at religion comprehensivly instead of ust ane setting (ony previous response said this too but didn't put forth spectc passages because I had assumed that someone so interested in this topic would seek to find and examine ther relevant sources themselves), Regarding Hazrat Mirza Masroor Ahmad (aba), he has sai ths: "Although Islam says there sa cfference in the physical makeup of men and women and alsoin thelr responsibilities; in tems of intellect, just as man has been given intligence, woman too have been given inteligence. just as men has been commanded to acquire education, women have also been commanded to educate themselves, As such, Allok the Amighty has granted equa capabiies and means for both men and worn to progress and advance. He hes ganted them both nel, so that hey ats ther wisdom and activate their ment faculties and strive to excel one another. Men cannot claim that they have exclusively been granted inteigence and only they can utilise itto advance. Nor can a woman profess that only she has been given intellect and she alone can progress with lah the Almighty has glen a mind, brain, wisdom and knowledge to both men and women to procure knowledge and insight. No man can say that a ‘omar’ intellect has reached a peak beyond which she cannot progress and that only ‘men can develop thelr incllect beyond a certain degree, Simla, language and theability ta speak ave been given to both men and women. Ifmen can became great orators and have the potential to demonstrate such abilities, then women too can buecome just as goad orators - and they are!” (source: hupsuémerevlewofeiglons.org/12826/slam-restoring-womens:cightsd) Moroever, Hazrat Khalifatu-Masih IV (aba) sald “We have found that in some ways ‘Woman are deficient in ther atitude, and in some ather ways they are very intelligent, very clever, even superior to men, Hadratishah Sidigahra was also 8 woman, and she taught haf of Islam tothe whole of the world So this Hath should not be rmisincerpreted That does not mean that Islam condemns women as small things, because you must read other sayings of the Holy Prophet (a5) to know what (the) real atttude of slam ‘towards women. Hadat Rasulliah (525) atone place said thatthe door to heaven les Under the feet of your mathers. Mothers are not men, you know that dott you. Sof serving women leads you to heaven, if obedience to women leads you to heaven, how an you consider thr naqistul 9a that sense, defilent in mind, because they were deficient they would not lad yout timate delverance from sn and leod yout enter heave.” (Source: Question Answer Session, june 24, 1991) * wat really want to know is, do you honestly fel that because you area woman you arert capable of coping in stressful situations as well as men and that fyou were in anunhappy marrage, you wouldnt be abe to make a decision about divorce autonomously without a man evaluating your complaint and determining f was, justified? If you realy feel that, that very sad and I hope you wil build more confidence in yourselt ‘Thank you for your concern for my personal wel-being.Thisisn't about me or my Confidence though (which baw i on prety sold ground so kindly don't worry about No one has sad that a wornan i incapable of coping with stress. Responses toit do ditfer by gender though in various situations and such ifferences are well documented, so fel free take itup with scence fyou have an issue with this. would rather have a system that empowers women gven our ciffeences than one that doesnt acknowledge that those differences exist. You are welcome to erally assest and choose whatever religion/beliet system you lke and see where i takes you. [hope joing forward we can avoid the urge to make Daily Mailstyle opinion pieces that misrepresent the ather side and instead seek to understand each other, Ap Rearofath ecatmas ecmusiin pointe thou go ¥ | Moroever, Hazrat Khalifatub-asinV (aba) sald \When you or anyone cites modern khulifa(KMIV or KM) on points like this, you ‘only underscore how inconsistent Ahmadiyya Islamic theology i. No one's claiming that KMIV and KMV don't issue PR platitudes to try to repair isiam’s image in modern socery. Were focused on the veracity ofthe entire house of hmadlyyat by looking atts foundations Going back tothe Prophet Muhammad is fine, but then offering a non-sequitur ike this doesnt at all help your argument: (the eal attitude of Islam is towards women. Hadrat Rasuullah (sas) at one place said thatthe door to heaven lies under the feet of your mathes, Seriously. Cannot a mother be the door t heaven and stil be mentally deficient? ‘One doesnt exclude the other. And heres what your Prophet Muhammad also said about women (Sahih al-Bukhari 304): have not seen anyone more defkient in inteligence and religion than you. A ‘cautious sensible man could beled astray by some of you.” The wornen asked, O Alah's Messenger (a! What is deficient in our intligence and religion?" He sid, "Is not the evidence of two women equalto the witness of one mari" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "Thisis the deficiency in her intelligence Regarding /u/bluemist2% direct question to get your opinion, you dodge the {question with condescension that she's somehow pateralisticaly intersted in your wellbeing, but nat really. Are you really that fra to answer a direct question that you have to resort to misdirection and evasion? Do you seriousy not see the {question asa way to get your ov opinion on the matter by using a hypothetical situation where you as @ woman, would be forced to reconcile he scriptural ‘passages you defend with your own selfworth?‘learty, you'r unwiling to answer the question head on putting yours in that hypothetical, and thik ather readers here se that unvilingness as wel Regarding No one has said that a woman is incapable of coping with stress. Responses toit do differ by gender though in various stuations and such differences are well documented, so fel fee take itup with scence ifyou have an issue with this, ‘Youre making tls claim In the context of defending a passage restricting a woman from divorce without a court's permission to “protect” herself from what she may {0 on account of her insufficient im and al Perhaps you want to provide a single eer reviewed source for that {Im not arguing that men and women don’ have different strengths and weakness, ‘or diferent levels of emotional responses to diferent stuatons—but claiming that ‘8 womans emotional reslece isso sub-par in these situations that she has to be protected from herself is 2 eal stretch. And (ufhlusmist27 has already shown that ‘he words im and aq! dort refer to emotional resilience but intellect. Ifyou want to defend Ahmadiyat outof this quagmire, youll need to bring Mirza Ghulam Ahmad own writing to bear, or those of Prophet Muhammad {soni narrations only, please — there's alt of fut stuff attributed to him that's graded sweat). Final think //Danishgi0 said it well inher eadliee comment: It takes an incredible amount of psychological resenceto survive asa ‘woman inthis socety even inthis day and age. A woman's AUTONOMY is her biggest saviour from manipulative and oppressive men, not more men dictating her decisions when they have abused women for centuries and continue to do sam @ eck © 4b Ter aooy 0 paints 22 our % | when you or anyone cites modern khullfa(KMIV or KM) on points like tis, you only underscore how inconsistent Ahmadiyya Islamic theology is. Noone is claiming that KMIV and KM don't issue PR platitudes to try to repair Islam's image in modern society. Were focused onthe veracity ofthe entre house of Ahmalyyat by looking atts foundations. Firstof al let me correct you: there sno such thing as modern Islam or antiquated Islam, There is one sia and the Khulifa are leaders of Islam inthe present day. These are not PR platitudes but addresses to women specially. 1 ‘don care f you want to call them PR. We stick to aur belief in ll etings| because we understand and choose them, * Were focused on the veracity of the entire house of Ahmadlyyat by looking at ite foundations. * Excellent. Please do that. focused on that as well and when fTook a the entire house of Ahmadiyya, any doubts Ihave dissipate * Clearly, youre unwiling to answer the question head on putting youself in that hypothetical, and Ithink other readers here see that unwilingness aswell.” bid you even read what said? Thiss my response: "I would rather have a system that empowers women given our diferences than one that doesn't acknowledge tha those differences exist” No body is stopping me from living the if that I want. "An lulbiuemis27 has already shown thatthe words iim and aq! don't refer to ‘emotional resilience but tointellect.* ‘The reference here was on mental faculties, Im sorry f you dont have the ability to cross teference quotes across multiple contexts or read and evaluate passages in thelr context, You make the same mistake multiple times in your ‘own reasoning on other matters offal, so fm defintely not surprised. Regarding the Hadith, heres mare explanation f youre interested ‘nps/askamurabbi com/knowled ge-base/why-haveswomen-been-rferredto: _2s-nfcent.n.ntellec.and religion’ Im sure you probably know my now that ‘women and men are spiritual and intellectual equals in Islam Ifyou look atthe‘entice religion closely. iam least interested in your distortions since I am familiar with my religion. Regarding the Danishgil comment, agree that an incredible amount of resllence's required of women. I have never denied that and [know that prety Well 2¢3 woman, so you don eel to tell me that. Awoman abeolutely hae her say in what she wants todo in Islam, so Lm not sure where the men dictating things to her comes from. Finally don find your reasoning appealing by any measure and you are not the savior of Muslim women’s rights 'm Ahmadi by choice and you dent get to tell me what's beter for meas 2 woman. Godspeed. Im reply Shae = Remove Wspam @ Lock A busty 2 5 pcs ones gy etd 3 hours ag Iwanted t pick upon the fist point because its net covered in ReasonOnFaiths responses. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad made a connection between knowledge- male superiority divorce in passage 1. You made a connection between education knowledge. No ‘where in my original comment gid say that Islam says women should be given less educational opportunities so unless youre going co tellus that you have a habit of making random comments which are unrelated tothe conversation at hand I quite reasonabiy assumed thatthe education knawiedge cannection that you had introduced needed tobe considered in the context of what we were discussing (the passage from MGA) otherwise what was the point of Introducing It inthis particular discussion? 1 asked you a number of questions an educatlon-knawledge in the context of| divorce. Atte time you dd not respond te this to say that educational ‘opportunities were not relevant tothe reference to" in passage 1 It seems that later on when you had thought ths argument through (which you are aiming now that you never made) you realised that educational opportunities inthe context of dlvorce were problematic and you then on went to say that this framing is Incorrect. It would have never happened had you not introduced the point about ‘educational opportunities or had you said immediately after Ihad asked my {questions that this framing wasincorec. {think given all the above there's a pretty good case tobe made that thats the {argument that you were initial trying to make but you did it quite rash. Ifyou ‘want to deny iethat’ fine, as you said people can read the original discussion and ‘make up thelr minds. 4 Terma 2 pais 3 tours ago + | Mirza Ghulam ahmad made a connection between knowledge: male superiority clvorce in passage 1. You made a connection between education: knowledge, My connection was between knowledgeiin-both genders, which Iconsider highy relevant tothe subject matter. fyou consider this unrelated, rm not surprised since thatthe git of vitualy all arguments on this forum to take ‘one thing said in context and not check where else that has appeared 10 Lnderstand the overall implication. ts fascinating to me that anything that ‘opposes your points is dismissed as PR whereas everything elseis considered the rea dea * Lasked you a number of questions on education-knowedge inthe context of ‘dvorce Yes you did. Yes, | never answered them since they were irelevant to what I had said and didn follow, "think given allthe above there’ a petty ood case to be made that thats the argument that you were intaly trying ta make but you id quite rash This is as good acaseas this whole post, which misrepresents what Isai.) At ‘his pont your going around in circles and repeating the same thing aver and ‘over, 30 its not fruitful for me to engage further.4 bwemistan 2 pss zou 0 cated hur 350 Acthis pointyou'e seeming quite incoherent so L agree its best not to engage any further 44 [lincanie_por apo. Shausags @ Aldaremnmaleson +\ fo OS & | A 4 doubts pots 20h ago F Lalso request unbiased readers to look at how you substantially added toa key comment Inthe corwersation after bluemis had replied, and even after you had replied to that response from bluemist. rm certain that in the interests of faieness to the person you were talking to, you willbe happy to see an archive of your original comment her: ‘tpstmgurcom/aH.2EDE7 ‘m Reply Share ~~ HE Remove spam @ Lock fb tem tipay © Great and thanks fr doing that. added a carfication comment and speciicaly nated leas an*Eet™ tant change what had sald before, and was meant to offer {lariication since Tm familiar with the way things get misconstrued here, wey Shae» mmere spam @ Lock 4 cousehate spo + Lappreciate that you put et, but do you not see the issue in adding a whole ‘paragraph toa comment ater two futher comments had already been made in ‘the conversation? You could have responded tothe atest commentin the conversation. Editing means that new readers could be misled Youre welcome though @ 4 Termaony 1 st: 20 hour ago $ sure,1ilmake a separate commentifthatls preferred by members here the next time something lke that happens. Feel free to document that In your rules, doublekaf | didnot see an issue wit since it cnt invalidate or change anything had said before and was dlarifying what! already said. The two comments later fended the thread A Ressoroorath examin emus pine. 20508 su/Termanpy These aren't specified as “rules” for this subreddt. We ust ‘sume k's good eiquette to not ect a comment after thas been responded to, except if you're editing something tral ike atypo, simple ‘grammar, or punctuation. This fs doubly tue na contentious back an forth (of opposing views, Ws best to just add your eiarfieation in anew comment; perhaps referring to Your alder comment a incomplete eu @ tack © [No ules here Im not a mod, just an active member of the sub whe cares +4 Term-Happ9 2 point: 20h go Given your exemplary commitment to feimess and dislogue, perhaps get the ex Ahmadi people to stop downvoting posts that arent offtopic.) 4 Daniheta0 2 pont Phere ago Nobody can stop people downvoting, not even the mods even though they have posted various notices to stop people downwoting for simple cisagreements. [ts quite unfortunate realy You wil have to take this ‘upwith the people who created reddit. 4 Temtappr 1p . don’ mind ata. This relects the strength of your eammunity here and their commitment to fairness, which is self-evident. (w Ropty Share + Remove HS Seam @ tock 4 anngtto 2 pont horago } We don'thave a community. +) Ressonfaithex-ahmadh emi 1 pont stron Regarding your allegation ofa lack of ‘commitment to fairness’ Imagine tying to even have such conversations on the ‘Vanmaclyya Subreddlt or during aJama'at ema, On the former, many of us ried and were banned, Be happy tat youre tenly dovmvoted occasionally by some people who have nothing todo with the oversight ofthe subredt. ++