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244 JAVIER VIRUÉS-ORTEGA
Chomsky: It has a tradition in the do it the American way, not that old
United States that goes back to before European way. In this context, rad-
the 1920s; and elsewhere as well. In ical behaviorism just fit easily. In
the 1950s, after World War II, there fact, the study of human affairs was
was a rather unusual period in the called behavioral science. It was
United States. The U.S. was the a very strange notion. Behavior is
richest country in the world before evidence. It’s not what you are
the war and it had been for a long studying; what you are studying is
time, but intellectually and culturally competence, capacity. If you study
it was kind of backwards. If you man’s insight you want to know what
wanted to study physics you went to is going on in his brain; behavior
Germany, if you wanted to study gives the evidence for that. But the
philosophy you went to England, if study of behavior is like calling
you wanted to be a writer or an artist, physics ‘‘meter-readings science’’ be-
France. Being in the United States cause meter readings are the data.
was like being in central Idaho today. But in a serious field, you wouldn’t
It was not the intellectual and cultural identify the subject with the study of
center by any means. It was also not the data. Behavioral science was so
the major political force; it was in its superficial that history, sociology,
own region but not a global player, psychology were all called the
like Britain, let’s say. But that all sciences of behavior, which means
changed with World War II; it ended the study of data. Of course this was
with every other industrial society never going to get anywhere. But it
seriously harmed or destroyed. The did have the reputation, the feel that
United States emerged far richer than American hard parts of science
it had been. It ended up having would not mix with that old Europe-
literally half of the wealth of the world an nonsense. And it just swept the
and an enormous dominance in other intellectual domain in the 1950s (i.e.,
respects. And there was a period of psychology of course, philosophy,
triumphalism about what those bad history and other fields). And it was
old Europeans weren’t doing properly in this general context that radical
and we had to tell them: now we are behaviorism quickly came to enjoy
going to run the world intellectually enormous prestige. Right here in
as well, culturally as well. That is part Cambridge was the center of all this.
of the reason why we are so unaware When I got here, by the year 1950,
about earlier history, which is just this was the core of that.
dismissed as irrelevant, and try to do What were the reasons that made
everything from the start. you write the review of Skinner’s
And there was a lot of prestige Verbal Behavior?
surrounding science and technology, Chomsky: There were a few peo-
in part, because we had worked on ple, not many, a small group of
technological developments. It imme- graduate students—I could actually
diately came to biologists like Wat- name them—who just didn’t believe
son and Crick and their predecessors the orthodoxy. And Skinner’s work
how biology could be related to was like the core text that was being
general biochemistry. Shortly before read all over. It was studied in
the war, chemistry and physics had psychology, in philosophy, and in
not been united, so for the first time it other fields. That basically solved the
looked like a unified science involv- problem: There were no more deep
ing core physics, chemistry, central problems, it was just a matter of
parts of biology, and so on. And the adding more details about reinforce-
next question was okay, let’s bring in ment, stimulus–response and so on.
the mind and behavior, the next Personally it just looked crazy [to me]
frontier of a unified science. We’ll … and so did it to a few other people.
246 JAVIER VIRUÉS-ORTEGA
His book was circulating around amalgam involving very few people.
1950. Before that, it had been his It was beginning to get results. By the
William James lectures, and every- early 1960s, a couple of years after
body read them before the book the review appeared, there was in-
appeared. So in the early 1950s this ternal criticism which shattered what
is what the graduate students at was left of the foundations of the
Harvard had in philosophy as ortho- subject. Two of Skinner’s major
doxy. I believe it was extremely students, Keller and Marian Breland,
damaging to the field; it was under- went off into animal training. They
mining the possibilities of a scientific were the main animal trainers, they
work in any of these areas. So I wanted to train all the things, circus
actually wrote the review before the animals and so on. What they dis-
book was published. covered was that this was just not
Although many reviews were pub- working [Breland & Breland, 1961].2
lished on Skinner’s book (e.g., Broad- I mean, the trainers, the psycholo-
bent, 1959; Jenkins, 1959; Osgood, gists, they were actually using the
1958) yours had a greater impact, in instinctive behavior of the animal and
fact, an impact without precedent in slightly modifying them by a training
the history of psychology. What do routine. But then, the animals were
you consider to be the reasons that just drifting back to their normal
made the paper so influential? instincts, to their behavior, refuting
Chomsky: I suspect the reason was all the theory. It’s what is called
mostly the timing. I mean, by the instinctual drift. By the early 1960s,
time the review appeared in 1959, the I remember giving talks in behaviorist
foundations of behavioral psycholo- psychology departments. I remember
gy were already beginning to be one case where someone, a young,
shaken, and it was still considered well-known, respected and very good
orthodoxy. If you read Quine, prob- behavioral psychologist said, ‘‘We are
ably the most influential Anglo- very convinced that these things don’t
American philosopher in the late work for humans but you seem to be
20th century, his book Word and taking for granted that they work for
Object [1960], is basically some Skin- animals, why do you assume that?’’ It
nerian orthodoxy1, virtually in the was a provocative question. I sup-
1960s. It was still dominant but not posed it worked for pigeons. He later
unchallenged. Within a few years, all began to study it, as did others, and it
sorts of evidence was coming in, turned out that it didn’t work for
showing that this couldn’t be right. pigeons. Within a few years there was
In the review, I discussed some of the no way to uphold anything. Cognitive
work just beginning to come in from
European comparative psychology 2
It should be noted that the Brelands did
and ethology. Timbergen and others not intend to disparage behaviorism. They
[Hinde & Timbergen, 1958] showed suggested the revision of three tacit assump-
that this picture of animals couldn’t tions, namely, ‘‘that the animal comes to the
laboratory as a virtual tabula rasa, that species
be correct. Work on linguistics was differences are insignificant, and that all
beginning, and it showed that lan- responses are about equally conditionable to
guage couldn’t possibly work like all stimuli’’ (Breland & Breland, 1961, p. 684).
this. Cognitive psychology was just Referring to this work, K. Breland wrote,
‘‘Perhaps we did not state strongly enough our
beginning; it was like an interactive feeling as to the efficacy of operant condition-
ing in the control of organisms. This convic-
1
Skinner and Quine did agree on essential tions is so ‘old hat’ with us that I am afraid
aspects of language. These aspects include the that we sometimes forget that it is not shared
influence of context on the notion of meaning by all American psychologists’’ (personal
and the importance of language on self- communication to B. F. Skinner, November
awareness and private experience (see Malone, 25, 1961; document made available by Robert
2001). Bailey).
SKINNER AND CHOMSKY 247
science had essentially taken over the authors have pointed out that some of the
field and had moved toward new concepts attributed to Skinner in the
directions.3 review were not Skinner’s (e.g., Hineline
A number of authors have suggested & Wanchisen, 1989; Luzoro, 1992;
that behaviorism’s decline and the begin- MacCorquodale, 1970; Wiest, 1967).
ning of modern psycholinguistics are not For instance, (a) reinforcement by drive
independent facts. What effect have your reduction (Chomsky, 1959, pp. 39–
reviews of Skinner’s works (Chomsky, 44), (b) the extinction criterion for
1959, 1971, 1972) had in spreading the response strength (Chomsky, 1959,
cognitive psychology model? p. 29), and (c) the neglect of gram-
That is really for others to answer. mar in Skinner’s account5 (Chomsky,
By 1971, radical behaviorism, or any 1959, pp. 56–58, see also MacCorquo-
other variant, had seriously declined dale, 1970). How do you consider
in influence (perhaps outside philoso- these claims?
phy, Quine’s influence, particularly). Chomsky: I already responded
There were many factors, work on 30 years ago, in a footnote to a review
language being one of them. But even of Skinner’s Beyond Freedom and
from within behaviorism circles, the Dignity [Chomsky, 1971]. Most is just
basic principles were being challenged. inaccurate. Of course I discussed
For instance, by the Brelands’ work drive reduction but did not attribute
on instinctual drift, by Dulany and it to Skinner. The review went far
others on conditioning and awareness beyond Skinner. As for the rest, the
[Dulany, 1961, 1968],4 and much else. authors missed the point of the re-
Skinner stated that ‘‘[Chomsky] view: There is an interpretation of
missed the point’’ (1972, p. 345). A few Skinner in which he is taken literally,
and it is false; there is an interpreta-
3
Chomsky’s account of the timing of the tion in which he is taken metaphori-
development and decline of behaviorism and cally, and it is a bad translation of
cognitive science should be contrasted with
available scientometric studies demonstrating ordinary mentalistic terminology into
that (a) there are a number of indexes that terminology borrowed from the lab
indicate that behaviorism continued to be and deprived of meaning. Their cri-
a growing field up to the mid-1970s; (b) the tiques are limited to pointing out that
growth of cognitive science has been a long-
term phenomenon that developed steadily the latter interpretation is possible.
from the late 1960s to the 1990s; rigorous There may be a conceptual vacuity
studies show that a quick exchange of para- entailed in transferring theoretical
digms, as advocated by a number of cognitive elements used in the lab to normal
authors, did not occur; (c) behavior analysis
was not strictly predominant when cognitive human life. In the 1950s, scarce
science started to grow; (d) behavioral psy- empirical data were available and most
chology has produced a stable number of of Skinner’s ideas about human be-
publications since the mid-1980s and has havior could have been regarded as
displayed a slight steady growth since the
mid-1990s (Mandler, 2002; O’Donohue, Fer-
lucubration. Fifty years have gone by,
guson, & Naugle, 2003; Pena, 2003; Robins,
Gosling & Craik, 1999). 5
According to MacCorquodale (1970), ‘‘a
4
Dulany has said, ‘‘In … [Dulany, 1961, theory that does not have special grammar-
1968] I was challenging behaviorism in what I generating laws in it must still be capable of
saw to be the most fundamental ways: generating outcomes which have grammatical
specifically a challenge to the central behavior properties’’ (p. 90). In other words, although
theory principle of the automatic action of Skinner’s account is reductionistic, it does not
reinforcement and more generally its philo- exclude causal pathways particular to ‘‘verbal
sophically naive suspicion of and rejection of behavior’’ (Skinner, 1957, Part III). Further-
consciousness. … At that time, I saw no more, autoclitic processes are considered in
reformulation of behavior theory principles extensive sections of the book (Skinner, 1957,
that would be adequate for either verbal or Part IV). Further comments on the compat-
nonverbal voluntary behavior, and still don’t’’ ibility of a functional and formal analysis of
(D. E. Dulany, personal communication, verbal behavior are available in Moerk (1992)
February 10, 2005). and Richelle (1973/1976).
248 JAVIER VIRUÉS-ORTEGA
and a few hundred well-designed stud- Several authors have pointed out
ies on the subject have been published. that both analyses, Chomskean and
Many empirical reports suggest that Skinnerian, are not necessarily exclu-
these concepts and the applied methods sive, and can even enrich each other
derived from them have some useful- (Moerk, 1992; Segal, 1977). Both
ness beyond the laboratory (e.g., theoretical bodies seem to have their
applied behavior analysis of pervasive own range of successful predictions
developmental disorders, clinical be- and their own evolving research pro-
havior analysis, operant methods for grams. Accordingly, it has been sug-
language acquisition). Considering ev- gested that ‘‘the theory-choice [among
erything that has been published, Chomsky’s and Skinner’s proposals]
would you say that, in particular is implicated in value-judgments’’
spheres of human language, an operant (Lacey, 1978, p. 131).
analysis could have some heuristic Chomsky: I do not know how to
value for human affairs according to make sense of such comments. The
the empirical data available?6 reason is that I know of no theoret-
Chomsky: There is some usefulness ical body of Skinnerian work, and the
in behavior modification, therapy, few research programs that remain
training, under special circumstances, have to do with quite different topics.
including the cases you mention. To my knowledge, what remains of
There is quite a lot of use of Skinner’s work is a collection of very
experimental techniques in industry useful experimental techniques. I do
(say, in testing effects of drugs on not see any theory choice. And if
animals), and in work in serious there were, it would not be a matter
psychology. But that was never the of value judgment. If two research
issue and still isn’t. There is precisely programs and the theories they yield
zero in the areas that he was making are compatible, then there is no issue
remarkable claims about. If the of choice; we accept both of them,
claims were made now, the verdict and try to unite them. There is no
would be exactly the same.7 value judgment.
Is a formal and functional analy-
In a previous communication Chomsky sis of language necessarily exclusive?8
6
word. If the common observation is Gallistel, C. R., & Gibbon, J. (2002). The
inaccurate, let’s hear why. The proper symbolic foundations of conditioned behavior.
Hillsdale, NJ: Erlbaum.
response is not to pout about how it is Goldstein, H. (2002). Communication inter-
‘‘angry.’’ I don’t have time to check vention for children with autism: A review
the contexts below. But I would be of treatment efficacy. Journal of Autism &
glad to do so, if you would like to Developmental Disorders, 32, 373–396.
provide them. However, the first two Hayes, S. C., Blackledge, J. T., & Barnes-
Holmes, D. (2001). Language and cogni-
examples are quite appropriate and tion: Constructing an alternative appro-
straightforward. ach within the behavioral tradition. In
It is not relevant here, but the S. C. Hayes, D. Barnes-Holmes, & B.
reaction you quote is particularly Roche (Eds.), Relational frame theory:
offensive in context. Recall the char- A post-Skinnerian account of human lan-
guage and cognition (pp. 3–20). New York:
acter of the book, and the acolytes, Kluwer.
with extraordinary claims about their Hinde, R. A., & Timbergen, N. (1958). The
amazing achievements and contemp- comparative study of species-specific behav-
tuous dismissal of very extensive and ior. In A. Roe & G. G. Simpson (Eds.),
hard work which they did not even Behavior and evolution (pp. 251–268). New
Haven, CT: Yale University Press.
feel any need to learn anything about, Hineline, P. N., & Wanchisen, B. A. (1989).
in the light of the self-image they Correlated hypothesizing and the distinction
were projecting. between contingency-shaped and rule gov-
erned behavior. In S. C. Hayes (Ed.), Rule-
governed behavior: Cognition, contingencies,
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