ORSON DML DISS ORSON WELLES ir bOODMONICHie lint that conti this volumes ele Am pei. The exe « Gronmy oration im Pho cits flow the index “Atonkoer ton ofthis book was published in 1992 by HarperCalng Publishes ‘as ons WEES. Copyright © 1982 by Oje Kedar, Jonathan Retenbau, Wierbeolewonich All gts mered. Pantd nthe United States of earce No oto his bok may Be ued or preduced in any monet ‘TKtzore tout writen permasion exept i the caso ne gcttans WEGETos cnet etils and wees. For information adds HarperColins ‘Pobihen, lc, 10 ast Sid Stet, New Yok, NY 1022. Hap Calins looks maybe purchased for educational, busines orale ‘romain se, For nfomation ls write: Special Markets Departmen ‘Hay aline Publish, ne, 10 East Sd Stet, New York, NY 10022 Ft ape ei bon Pied 13. ined by Rath tet $e Ly dapoia camped ok sna oe ate, Onn 15 “Ths Orn Welles / Orn Walle & eter Bagdanovih edited by Jot Rownbsum Ist. Onan, 1915- Interviews. 2Moton pctv rouse and ted Statesmen 3. ted State— ya. BgdanovchyPetr 1939- PT. Roamboum, onthen Mi. Title e PNB WAS 92 porn 2300 BBN 0O5OREOX pL) ; 4 95 96 7 onew 10 9°87 6 S432 7 ae. CONTENTS AcKNOWLEDGMENTS Prrrace by Jonathan Rosenbaum oi InTmODUCTON: A Nice Little Book by Peter Bogdanovich ait |. ROME THEATRE - MOBY DICK-REHEARSED - RADIO - ACTING ~ D. W. GRIFFITH HOLLYWOOD - JOHN BARRYMORE - THE GREEN CODDESS - JOHN FORD - HEART OF DARKNESS — THE SMILER WITH 4 KXIFE ~ COMICS -Too MUCH JOHNSON - HEARTS OF ACE - BULLFIGHTING - IRELAND . OUTS 6 CITIZEN KANE HEARST PRESTON STURGES - HERMAN J, MANKIEWICZ - MUSIC - DEEP FOCUS — 7 GREGG TOLAND - CEILINGS AND CAMERA PLACEMENTS 4 PARENTS -DR. BERNSTEIN - ROGER HL MAKEUP THe sano oF recon vs. baceawune age RELEASE -oscARS - GRAND DETOUR NEW TORK 5 alt 3 THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS - TARKINGTON. 4ND ‘TWAIN - DON QUIXOTE - THE DEEP- CHIMES ar——_————. = ipyigiT- BLACK MAGIC ~ :ARBO - CYRANO, BERGERAC ~ ALEXANDER KORDA - RUSSIAN WRITERS 1p THE WORLD IN #0 DAYS CONTENTS: noe VAN HUTS a ‘cuan.it CHAPLIN - MONSIEUR VERDOUX ~GRETA Cano WC FIELDS - FRANK CAPRA ~ FEDERICO FELLINI - JeaN.LUC CODARD ~ CENSORED - KENII MIzocUcHI - \1TToRIO DE SICA DIRECTING - JAMES CAGNEY - EISENSTEIN AND IVAN THE TERRIBLE - CARL DREYER HARRY DIARKAST ~ CECIL B. DE MILLE ~ STERNBERG AND STROHEIM = ITS ALL TRUE OBERT FLAHERTY -THE RKO TAKEOVER - JOURNEY INTO FEAR ~ SEEING FILMS EVERY HLL 169 THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WIND - THE STRANGER - JANE THE BOYS - TOMORROW IS FOREVER - FDR - DUEL IN THE SUN -THE LADY FROM SHANGHAI ~MEMO TO HARRY ‘COHN - CAMERA ANGLES - JACQUES ATI - FOOLS. 6 fourwoop 1B dcaerin 1 TWENTY-THREE DAYS - SHAKESPEARE - (8 plean nenom - movie AUDIENCES - REVIEWS: EUROPE Vs. awentca -THE THIRD MAN ~ DAVID 0, SELZNICK~ OTHELLO -MR. ARKADIN 7. NS 368 ‘THE TaUALSers CHIMES AT MIDNIGHT -THE 'MEMORTAL STORY - SAK DINESEN - CUTTING - TEAGHIN | : CCARTERE 2 ». WELLES CAREER, A CHRONOLOGT Pa ‘Aevexpoe: The Original Ambersons 4 Eprror’s Nores o soex 5| ACKNOWLEDGMENTS For invaluable assistance on this book through its many stages, i Peter Bogdanovich would lke to thank the late Eugene Archer, Sherry Arden, Fileen Bowser, Iris Chester, Gary Graver, the late Richard Grifith, the late Margaret Hodgson, Oja Kodar, Joseph McBride, Craig Nelson, Polly Platt, Peggy Robertson, Ann Rogers, jonathan Rosenbaum, Andrew Sarris, Daniel Selznick, Cybill Shepherd, L. B. Straten, Daniel Talbot, Beatrice Welles ‘Smith, Elizabeth Wilson, the ate Richard Wilson, and Mae Woods. For asstance on this book nits latter stages, Jonathan Rosenbaum would like to thank Piet Adriaan, J, Adriano ‘Apri, Sherry Arden, Frank Beacham, Catherine Benamou, John Berry, Peter Bogdanovich, Fred Camper, Rebedfa Cape, ©, & Irs Chester, Michael Dawson, David Ehrenstein, Bemard Eisenschitz, Pamela Falkenberg, George Fanto, Carolyn | Fireside, Tag Gallagher, Ciro Giorgini, Miriam Hansen, “© J. Hoberman, Dave Kehr, Oja Kodar, Allan Zola Kronzek, Todd McCarthy, J. Fred McDonald, Alain Mees, the late Fletcher Marit, James Naremore, Crag Nelson, James Pepper, Bill Reed, Michael Rosenbaum, Alexander Sesonske, Alessandro Tasca di Cuto, Sandra Taylor, Beatrice Welles Smith, Bart Whaley, and Bret Wood. And in particular, for their devoted, serupulous, and * "untiring generosity, I would lite to thank Bll Krohn, Gary Graver, and the Ite Richard Witton,PREFACE ¢ + 3 2 ‘These interviews were recorded. on reel-to-reel tape. Why they have taken so longto reach print is a complicated story. ‘When Peter Bogdanovich first met Orson Welles in Lot Angeles toward the end of 1968, he had already published menographs on, Welles, Howard Hawks, and Alfted Hitchcock for the Museum of Modern Art, as well as interview books with John Ford and Fritz Lang, and directed one feature (Taets). During those same years, Welles had made The Trial (1962) and Chimes at Midnight (1966) and acted in a good many other films while trying to raise ‘money for his other film project.crenata nd : : anoviehssinteen-page The Cinema of Orson Wells (195 _Boslanerite bt Weles retrospective in the United State Ste eed by Bogdanovch for the Museum of Modern Art ore ean ay fom olber American cic treatment of Welles, especially during this period, by arguing that Welles “de. eresa etsch Further both technically and intellectually” ater Cannes Kune eg, "The photography and what remains of Welles Seat editing mark (Nr. Akai] as perhaps Welles’ most ambi. Seine to date’; “Technically, Touch of Evil is Welles’ most advanced fin.” TBogdanovich recalls thei 1968 meeting and their mutual deci- sion to do 2 book together in the Introduction which follows, ‘Seton especialy fortis volume. The interviews began in Welles! ungalow atthe Beverly Hills Hotel and resumed as Bogdanovich joined Wells on location for Catch-22 in Guaymas, Mexico, and then continued sporadically at various places in Europe and the United States. During this same period—1969 to 1972—Bogda- novich published two lengthy broadsides defending Welles against his detractors—"Is It True What They Say About Orson?” in the New York Times, and “The Kane Mutiny” in Esquire. According ‘to Bogdanovich, as the book developed, its collage structure and its emphasis on the fact thatthe interviews occurred in diferent locations stemmed from Welles himself, and one can seein both {hese conceptual ideas rather precise parallels tothe films Welles wwas making over the same period—the giddy globetrotting in for Fake and Filming “Othello” and the array of diverse overlapping “documentary” materials in the sill unreleased The Othe Side of 2 the Wind. “$-As Bogdanovich describes it, what usually happened was that he “vould edit and arrange the material after it had been transosbe ‘and submit versions of each section to Welles. Months late, _ ¢ Welles would send these back, either retyped or with handwaie® ~ © changes; some chapters went through two or three such revisions ‘vith Welles often rewnting Bogdanovich’s comments as well 8D With the pressures of Bogdanovich’s mushrooming cae! director—iven special impetus by the enormous 7) Sere ot The Lat Bitar Show (57), What Up, Loss a Paper Moon (1° and Welles’ continual (if unsv: forts touch new features of his own, months steed ie yeas. The book passed through two contracts—one ¥i#h new, another with Harper's Magazine Press—without coming to fruition. Then the project was effectively abandoned after Welles, signed another contract to write his memoirs, When they had to return the publisher’ advances, which they had shared equally, Boedanovich was more solvent and covered the costs himself. (Gimilarly, when Welles plans to write his memoirs yielded only a few pages—published in the Christmas 1982 issue of the French Vogue—Oja Kodar, a Yugoslav sculptor, actress, and writer and Welles’ companion and collaborator since the early 1960s, paid back the corresponding advance.) Welles and Kodar were living at Bogdanovich's house, where parts of The Other Side of the Wind wwere being shot. Seripted by Welles and Kodar, the film centers ‘on a birthday party being held for an aging macho film director, Jake Hannaford (played by John Huston), and Bogdanovich was ‘ast Bist as an interviewer and then—in a far more important roe, replacing Rich Little—as a successful director and friend of Han- haford at the party; Kodar played the lead actress in Hannaford’, latest fl. “Around this time, Bogdanovich’s own commercial status was becoming precarious with Daisy Miller (1974), At Long Last Love (1975), and Nickelodeon (1976), and many of his possessions— including all of the materials relating to the Welles book—wound tup in storage. In part because of the varying fortunes of Welles and Bogdanovich and some unsuccessful efforts to come together ‘on a number of film projects, their friendship cooled by the late 1970s, although they remained in touch. During this time Bog- danovich continued to help Welles with his projects and career; ‘unofficially, he helped the American Film Institute in its efforts ta,” Ihonor Welles with its third Life Achievement Award if 1975, = Bogdanovich’s life took a much darker tra in 1980 with the brutal murder of Dorothy Strtten, his companion, who lid just played a featured role in his film They All Laughed—a tragedy ‘dealt with at length in his book The Killing of the Unicorn (1984), the TV movie Death of a Centerfold (1981), and Bob Fosse's im ‘Star 8D (1983). In 1985, he went into bankruptcy after purchasing and releasing They Ail Laughed: In the course of these viciss tudes, the book was effectively lost for ve years; Boudanovich [knew it was somewhere in storage, but was unable to lay his hands onit. Welles died on October 10, 1985, and ata warm and moving tribute to him held atthe Directors Guild in Hollywood (which 1ODO anovich served as emcee and Oja Kodar spoke atcaded) Poet ted both of them to another Welles tute Fo ee ating at the Roterda Film Festival; Peter was tg that the inet attend, but 2 agreed, and we met for the int basy at the bey 16, (Ls fo meet Beter forthe Brat time at time ther al thre years later.) Over the next year, I persuaded therame shone of Wells last unrealized sereenpays, The Big Oia to punta Barbara: Santa Teresa Pres, 1987), and conte an afterword tt , ae ae in the late summer of 1987, after Bogdanovich had told ee wo time atthe present to put the book into final puts efuble shape and to bring it up to date, Oja asked me to edit this ‘ooke-a legendary manuscript [had been hearing about since the ail 1910s A couple of years later, in Chicago, I started to receive Spy of the lst draft of the manuscript—1501 pages long, but iil uninshed—in separate instalments in the mail. What im- tne the most, as I started reading it, was how differently Welles regarded his own work and career from the ways the rest of tus did. Here he was, at the height of the power of the auteur theory—the time when American directors were being discovered and praised as never before, with Welles himself enthroned in ‘most people's minds asthe vertable symbol of the directors au- thority—declarng that the importance of the director was vasly ‘overated, particularly in relation to the role of the actor. The orious icanoclasm that he had repeatedly shown as an artist— ‘ever producing the flm (or radio show or stage production) that _ yas expected of him, always staying several nimble steps ahead of “Gis commentator.—was equally apparent in the fascinating Per j ‘pectives that he had about his work and so much else. "i About a year later, I received the tapes (which Peter had found ‘in 1987, and had turned over to Oja)—approximately twenty-£ve + hours of interview representing more than five sixths of the oi ‘nal material, which expanded the range of my choice stil {G eéuple of tapes had unfortunately been lost), The earlier SiH many of them as could be found inside diverse boxe orage, comprising thousands of more pages—atrived i €3 19a hen, daring my br vst to Las Angeles the following Summer, Oja managed to uncover sill other drafts with Welt fevions. Like Welles work asa whole, which I was coneurTen ‘tying to catalogue, this book was obstinately growing eve" ‘Thad it under some form of control PREFACE a So its been a kind of unfolding serial for me since the begin ning, complete with unraveling mysteries, protracted clif-hang- fs, and last-minute revelations—spurred along by advice and {sistance from Peter (who was working on four separate pictures uring this period), Oja (who was making her fst feature), and many others. Above al I should single out Bill Krohn—a frend ‘who introduced me to Oja and has been a constant source of help tn this book—but two of Welles’ most faithful colaborator, Gary Graver and the late Richard Wilson, gave trelesly and generously to this project as well Iisa sad fact that when Orson Welles died inthe fall of 1985, responses in the United States tended to differ sharply from those in the ret of the world. While the obituaries outside America devoted themselves almost exclusively to Welles’ many accom- plishments over more than half a century, the repeated refrains in his home country seemed to concentrate on his weight and on the specter of failure—almost aif these two fixed concepts seemed to “Explain” and justify each other. Ina culture increasingly bent on defining success, history, and reat itself in terms of currently marketable items, Welles” artistic career seemed to consist of a spectacular debut followed by forty-odd years of inactivity. it's an oddly comforting scenario for those who feel that both the marketplace and industry choices made on our behalf are al- ways sight. But for those who have followed Welles’ career more closely, his increasingly low visibility as a filmmaker during his lifetime suggests a highly troubling paradox—that the most uni- versaly revered of all American filmmakers found himself unable, to make another studio picture over the last three decades of hig life. The reasons for ths impasse are too complex tobe deat with adequately here, although i is important to stress two factor: that the nature and procivties of the film industry are every bit 35 Dertinent to this “faire” as Welles’ own eccentricities, and that, far from being inactive, Welles continued to do creative work for the remainder of hs life, even when he had to finance it himself For these reasons, among others, Welles’ work and career remain, exemplary and highly subversive rebuttals to many received ideas about art and commerce that continue to circulate inthis culture, they are ideological “disturbances” inthe best sense." The only aor area where there was any eto disagreement oe tat could be described at social and polticaleoguet. While Webes remained pat= SO ‘With signicant portions of Welles work still out of reac seve and many other portions unknown ofr Mane need to clarify his legacy i some detail has never sen ‘Eire eenang, Wels youngest daughter, Beatrice Welles Sone “utherzed arestorabon and rerelease of Othello ana sre fra premiere of Don Quixote in Spain. If ceva ioe nt franca dosacles can be overcome, The Other Sue of ‘Wind will finaly see the light of day as well. Although the tee mest neglected areas of Wels’ work—his prodigious output {aio and his extensive involvement in politics —are only touched ‘nin the first eight chapters ofthis book, I've given them extennac ‘coverage inthe concluding career summary, which also contains some additonal interview material, as wel as information about tome of his lesser-known activites in theatre and film. For Welles fans who tend to judge his work mainly in relation to a handful of features, ifs worth recalling thatthe most productive stretch in his ‘earcer occurred before he even went to Hellywood, he was just She of twety.vee when he mae it nto the ove of ine insofar a it's been possible, [ve tied to respect Welles and Bogdanovic’s intentions while drawing the best material from al the sources available to me. Inthe cates where Welles facts difer ‘rom the ones at my disposal, or where I believe that other sources ‘or information might be helpful, I've mentioned this in my notes. Jonaruan Rosenanunt ‘April 1982 BGT es INTRODUCTION: Nice little Book “Now I am going to tll you about a scorpion. This scorpion wanted to costa river, so he asked the frog to carry him. ‘No, said the frog. ‘No, thank you IfT et you on my back you may sting me, and the sting ofthe scorpion is death.’ ‘Now, where, asked the scorpion, "isthe logic ofthat? (for Scorpions always try tobe logical). If sting you, {you wil de, and I wil drown.” So the fog was ‘Convinced, and allowed the scorpion on his back But jut inthe middle of the river he feta terrible pain and realized that, after all the scorpion had ung him. ‘Logie! ered the dying frog as he started under, bearing the scorpion down with him, “There i no logic inthis! 'T know,’ sid the scorpion, ‘but I can help it—it's my character, Let’ drink to character...” "ORSON WELLES, Mr. Arkadin (1955) “This book began for me with a program note I did on’ Welle’ Othello for a New York revival house over thirty-two years ago. ‘The note—t had called the picture the best Shakespeare film ever rmade—came to the attention of the Curator of the Museum of Modern Art Film Library who, as a result, asked me to organize the it U.S. Weles retrospective ano write an acompanying ‘monograph on his pictures. ‘as unable to attend any the programs, which ran at the museum from June 11 through ‘August 12, 196]--he was in Europe preparing The Tril—so I had——7etropuctioN. vo communication with him at all for the show oF for my ie pa coy was set off to some address ovenet® crcl ad. Pe eceived ito Not—until seven years later, se Mone rang ne sfternoon—1 had by then marie forthe fet Gre and moved to Los Angeles—and when I answered S fist time a voce asked forme and afer I had identified meet fei male voce ae fll can tll you how eae ‘wanted to meet you.” I laughed—he had taken “my line,” | Said and asked, incredulously, why? “Because you have wit the trust thing ever publshed about me,” he said, then added oe renal” Could I meet him atthe Polo Lounge ofthe Bevery Hils Hotel tomorrow at 300 fora coffe and talk? Tt was near the end of 1968 and T had been working in the ‘wusinss about thirteen years—having acted and directed without feat aclain inthe theatre, dane allright a a show-biz magarine water, published a few small movie books and manosraphs (the Wits fd eer), directed and ated in) one very lo budget movie. I had already interviewed and got to know good numberof the great legendary names of the movies, from John Ford and Alfred Hitchcock to Cary Grant and John Wayne. But ‘Orson Weles was the fist whose presence did not awe me so much 1 it inspized an openness and ease 1 would not have thought possible since a quarter century separated us. There was a Strangely conspiratorial quality Orson and 1 fell into almost at ‘once; I felt as though we had known each other fora longtime, He was so extraordinanly disarming that felt quite comfortable telling im only the truth I even said the one flm of his I dia’ seal ike was The Trial. He ai, explosively, “Idon' either” This {pint confession seemed to me to solidify our sense of agreement ‘iron everything. By the end of two hours, as we were leaving the -sigurant, Wells flipped through the pages of my just-publshed book with John Ford (he was Orson's favorite America firecior, Thad quoted Welles inthe work and brought him ac), “Isn't oo bad,” Orson said, “that you cant doa nice lite bool Ii this bout me.” Why couldn't P Now that I was directing, he said (oy fist filet tad been released that year), probably there would be no te Sad that I would love to do'an interview book with him, that woul’ take so long, afterall. “Fine,” Orson said, “then lt 2° ne nas twenty-nine years old at that ime, and Welles Sfty-three—exactly my age now, as that “nice lite book is inaly published ‘Why it took such along time to appear has at least something to-do with that “scorpionfrag’ fable Orson told so memorably in his Mr. Arkadin: 2 metaphor on the basic inability of people to alter their true nature or to escape the fate to which their pe sonalties lead them. Even in our first—from my viewpoint, ‘euphoric—meeting of the minds, things tamed out to be quite Giferent than I had understood ther. Less than 2 year later, we were talking about The Trial again and when 1 began to ds tut in detal what bothered me about i, Orson suddenly said Sharply: “I wish you woulda’ keep on saying that” “Oh,” I said, “T'thought you didn't like the picture ether.” “No, 1 only said that to please you, like t very much,” Orson sid, “But Ihave a ‘much poorer opinion of my life's work than you possibly could ‘gues, and every negative thing that I hear from 2 friend, or read from a person that I vaguely sespect, reduces the litle treasure that | have.” Naturally, I felt terrible and Orson used to rub itin from then on by always referring to The Trial as “that pi ture you hate.” But, of cours, by ten we were on our side actoss the ier. ‘Orson and I played scorpion and frog to each other more than ‘once switching roles back and forth a number of mes, That “old ‘Arab fable,” which Orson said he heard once and incorporated into his picture, is expresive of perhaps his most basi theme— realizing that most people in life, like Orson himself, ae both Scorpion and frog, victims of other’ natures and destinies as well as their own. In pictures Welles bilianty embodied scorpions af: diferent a8 Charlie Kane and Harry Lime, frogs as dissrilat as Othello and Falstaff, scorpion/rogs like the Cop in Touch of Evil, about whom the Gypsy says after his death: “He was some find of ‘¢man. What does it matter what you say about people?” ‘Orson wrote that line, wishing it didn't matter what people said about him but knowing tdi; the main reason he cared so much ‘vas that the often grossly inaccurate stores and exaggerated le tends told of his exploits made it that mich tougher for him to work asa filmmaker. The whole point ofthe book he had insted ‘me todo with him, he sak, was to “set the record straight,” some- thing he seemingly wished to do on nearly everything that had ‘happened in his Mf. And, by that last year of the ssties when weee ‘tant wo brome fends, oron Wells had been in profeio ae er eat ft Ses 35 dretorlacto hae sated al the own medis—theatre, radio, and flm—before yz saete aty five had, ast turned out, dicted all the plays and at Wat tine ofthe picures—bwo documentaries and one still wnat bat tue of the eye would completein his Metime: whee 8 SSeS goalies another to decades TAL that frst meeting, I didnt realize what desperate and dis ‘couraged straits Orson was in—his personal life was in disarray, his continued work as a film director in peril. Yet within the pre. vious six years he had finished two of his most ambitious pictures ‘adaptations of Kafla’s The Trial and of Shakespeare's Falstaff into Chimes at Midnight, arguably his best film. But neither of these relatively small-budget European-based coproductions received adequate distribution and, though reviews were moderately favor Bi nether even dd ar-howse business. After these, ands men corable French-produced television adaptation of Isak Dinesen's ‘The Immortal Story (his first released work in color), Welles’ Eu- ‘ropean financing dried up. Whereas he had long hoped to make JovephHelers novel Cat-22 asa picture, head ended up hay Ine fo accept a smal supporting role inthe movie that Mite Ni els aking We arranged Co bein taing the interviews at is bungalow in the ent day ov soa then for me to come down to, Cuevas, ‘Mexico, and tape some more while he was acting in the Nichols ‘lm. I would eventually write about some of this in the early 1970s fin Esquire): (One afternoon... Orton and I got bit soused in an lett tut» They pve him mont ofthe day of, 0 we retired 0 So © sme taping. Now, Orion doesn't res talking about isl “ed pec not bout his pctures— Hike pling teeth i not e 150 to ease the pain, we had a few drinks. Actually, ‘Onc diin' get danke only became more eloguent, okcted his voice ate more, and reacted more emotional than usual ie har since ven up drinking aliogsthe) ag ld im the evening before how dificult it was for m4 (he older directors we both admired to gta job. This wa INGE ‘tral. The move business has abways been fOugh OF ye {25% Seif, who vented so much of didnt make * seventeen Jean of his ile. ati ‘An annotated list followed of virtually identical dieetor’s lie storie: Josef von Sternberg, Fritz Lang, King Vidor, Jean Renoir, all of whom I had also interviewed and in some cases had got to know a bit, so my reports were firsthand: ‘Thad given Orson sim rundown and had seen that e was deeply affected...” The nent day we were in the bar now), he broth up the sobiet agin, "You told melas ight about all these old directors whom people in Hollywood 5 are over the Jil and t made me wo stk, I couldn't sep. I started thinking boat al hoe conducton--Klemperer, Beecham, Toscaniny=1 ‘an name almost ands in the lst century—who were the height of thetr powers afr seventy-Bve. And were conducting at ‘eghty. Who sas they're overthehill” The waiter came by, ut Orson waved him away, “ts so fal,” he said.“ think sat terme what happen to old Deopl. Bu the public en iaterested in that-—never hasbeen, "That's why Lea bas always been a play people hate” "You dont thik Lest became senile” "He became senile by ging power avay. The oly thing tht ep people alive in thei od age is power... Bot take power away from de Gaulle o Church or Tito ot Mao or Ho o any of these olf men who run the world—in ths world hat belong only to young people—and youl sce a babi, sipped pantaleon. "There wa a long pause thought of how easy it was now for young men to gts ab directing In fc, Trecenly had ai ot {oo facetious that after Easy Ride, the simplest way to get 10 ‘make a pete was never to have made one fs only im your twenties and in yur seventies and eighties, that you d the greatest work,” Orson went on. “The enemy of society isthe middle clas, andthe enemy of fe is mileage. ‘Youth and ol age are great imes--and we must trevure od age spe ri apc icin nd edt them away.” ¥ “The dy fier, Orson tld me he planned to make his next picture on precisely thi subject the as days ofan aging director, ‘hich eventually became The Other Side of the Wind, aby nom Tegendary fm Welles began shooting wth his own money lten 1470, and which he continued to shoot off and on fr several sear, John Hutton pays the decor and the cast ince Lit Palmer, Mereedes McCambridge, Edmond OBrien, Pot O'Brien, George Jessel, Jack Nichason, Henry Jalom, Pau! Manursky, Oasear eng the est Wel “This ast paragraph appeared in 1985, the year Orson ded the fm, {esti tied up, the editing incomplete. nries and stories of Orson There ate so many me 400 man that fll outside the scope of this piece: Like Orson moving hue riedly through my study in the aftemoons, on his way to his bed. rea cout not to mis a second of his favorite rerun, The Big Yan'Dyke Show: Or the tne he accidentally put hi it eigarnae Te pocket of his white temcloth robe which, ater wie uit on fre—hefosed into the Bathtob but mised, burning Gp ar ofthe whte rg too, Onon in Paris pacing up and dows {Me aret at ght, arguing with himself sto who shoul play the tid dicey, he or Huston wanting to keep the plum rol for Kimslf “Why should I give that great part away?"—but fet dng Huston was better fori 1 remember Orson ithe passenger Seat cd to put on his eat bel, Bipping over his shoulder ea ‘cath or Orson, jumping into a New Yorke, giving the addres fd adding, in his mort swashbuckling voice: and'a gold doubloon if you get us there before nightfall!” But the central motivating factor for everything we di (hough I don't believe i was ever discussed between us) had to o with one basi aus: god pictures. Each in our ow way, Orson and | ‘ad bot lenin ove not only with the movies, but withthe ast ‘potential of the movies as well. That potential was encouraged _ahen good pictures were made and discoaraged when bad ots ‘Ptominated. By the end ofthe 1960 the golden age of pct {Ere ad eda Orn Wales coud hcp web wasnt gone "Pais was tome a guiding factor for my activities, though ee tuinly they were interpreted in other ways, and would have their diminishing retums for Orson and for me. 1 fee time we wee geting read to goto a big Holywood party togethe it the mid-1970s, around the height of my frst success peat of interest in Orson’ (final) retuen to Hollywood. He said by 3h ‘means we should not arive together atthe party, Why 22 asked Oh, Gos" he said, “they hate us enough already. Ct ‘you imagine? We enter arm-in-arm—i's almost calculat annoy every single person in the room.” I laughed, but didn’ really want to believe him. Of course it was Welles who suggested the shape of “the book.” as we always called it—we never did arrive ata title we both liked He said we should set the interviews wherever we had been to- gether, even if we hadn't necessarily done any taping sessions there. He also felt the conversations should not be strictly chron logical, according to his life, but more loosely organized, as our conversations actually were. And to break them up with relevant letters, memos, reviews, ete, gathered from the WelledMercury files that the late Richard Wilson—anong Orson’s most loyal for- ‘mer lieutenants—had kept in safekeeping for years. (These areTae __INTRODUCTION a ah —— Libcary at Indiana University.) a a aed the material into chapters and sent ty ee ine 0ed ahead rected, thee cet blank fr him to rewr Apap Bank ee mont ltr, & chapter would come bck, eran Seay hear ewten at times (including some ¢ thoroush TT nderstond O:s0n Occasionally altered thing ot it was good forthe “cause” target its only aim sto please. You can tell an acto from a wie _ cb ibe ie evi ois ates The polis Hee ture and approval ate incidental rewards _*Playing down to the camera"? Never play down. Up is sor son You Shou play tthe camera al cate 4.80 lina mirror to pose infront of. Ham actors are tutes and fetes, theatrical vocalizers—a ot of theo, “Adis, lasing winsome lle smules over the 20 Seatching their Tshirts, Cagney was one ofthe Dies eh ennai lie screen ore, se th ad oreo _ be had everything. He pulled no panel |, how _Mpbotoabody coud eal Cagney a ham. He id bot she % elf to ft the scale of the camera; he was ™ busy doing his job, Toshiro Mifune: his movie performances ‘would register in the back row of the Kabuki PB: But, Orson, don't you think there's stil something called movie acting? ‘OW: Thete ae movie actors, Cooper was a movie actor—the clas. Sie case. You'd see him working on the set and you'd think, "My Goa they'te going to have to setake that one!” He almost didn't Seem to be there. And then you'd see the rushes, and he'd fill the PB: How do you explain that? ‘OW; Personality. I wouldn't presume to explain that mystery. It Svays matters more than technique. Who, for instance, knows more about technigue than Olivier? Certainly, if sereen acting ‘depends significantly on camera technique, Larry would have fade himself the master of And yet, fine as he's ben in lms, he's never been more than a shadow of that electric presence ‘hich commands the stage. Why does the camera seem to dimin- [th him? And enlarge Gary Cooper—who knew nothing of tech- rigue tal? ‘Chaliapin—an actor whose genius was equal to his enormous stature ava personality. And believe me, Peter, that's really saying Something, He was by fr the biggest actor of our century. (Singer nd actor Fyodor Chalipin (1875-1938), much admired by Mey- told, appeared in G. W. Pabsts 1934 lm version of Don Qui- ote} No contest; nobody could make his weight. And what was he onscreen? Just_marginally impressive. Frank Fay, the vaudevilisn’s vaudevilian. What would Jack Benny have been without him? Fay made it from the Palace to lest, and made it {ery big—but not to Hollywood. On the screen he was a ghost ‘And now-—right now, i fact, Because’ time to go—you're going to sce a marvelous example ofthis mstery we've been talking of Eduardo de Filippo. (Actor, dramatist theatrical producer, and film directo, de Filippo was bor in Naples in 198, appeared in Vittorio De Sics's Gold of Naples (194) snd was co-creenriter of Yesterday, Today and Tomorw {1964).| On the stage nobody ln Europe ean come closet him. But nobody. In movies he just ceases to happen. A street cot at midnight on ¢ small, deserted piazza near the theatre where Orson had taken me 10 see Eduardo de Filippo, Undestonding abou ve wordtaf Haz, only lated forpuis 18 ORSON WELLE sd Onon is indignant; his theory is tha Ht YOU cen ge acing eter if Ou don undertand te an act, actually | gow ‘OW: Its easier to focus ont, Peter, if you simply cant get ins. ested in the plot $B. Well, of couse I could se he was good— BB Wal Eaandc? For Cas sake, he's great! But some tine or ch him na movie, and then You'l see what Iwas aig yea iThe camera doesn't ike him. This, by the way, is Akgs TPamiolfs theory, not mine. “De box looks at vun fella,” he says ‘id de box sas, Yes, dot van i for me! Tt looks at annoder and stays Nawwn!'Who knows why?” He's ight, of course—nobady itsovs why. And why docs the camera like people? second-rate age stor ke Eni Jonnings—what made him frstrate onthe Screen? Allght—a fistrate oveactor, if you wall. But whence ‘came al that hug authority in front of the camera? PB. You're sometimes crtcized for overacting. ‘OW: Fo, {know PPB: But looking a your flms, as I've been doing—running then three and four times—it strikes me that your real style is unde statement ‘OW: Well, that’ the intention PPB: But, the, you've been attacking understatement— ‘OW: Peter, the camer does not make understaterent obligato. ‘ele hack now inthis spooky basiness of personality. There a esonalics who seem to be overstaterents in themselves, Ue ‘apis, Tn one of those. ‘The camera doesn't just enlrae—# Blows me up. a PE You tsi hat nothing an actor does can ever Be OW: Nothing canbe oo strong. Ifyou just naturally displae uch hat pts amit on the sizeof your attack. You sou ovide the itation, not the mera. PB: y atin acting—sctng in general—some things do work bet um Wil youve me that want Pes aly Tdont if you aren thot FB: You just now made a movie almost entirely in cos | Lauren Harvey and Oje Koda in The Deep OW: The Deep. Well, it all happens on two small boats: what ele could I do? Til give you something else, Peter—there js indeed such a thing as a closeup actor. Hes the one who doesnt score ‘unless you frame him just under the chin. Rin Tin Tin and Lasie laze good examples ofthe type. PB: The camera's supposed to be « great liedetector. Do you thinkit shows when the emosion i fae? (OW: Sure, kind of ltmu-paper effec. What registers isthe presence or absence of feeling. Quality counts, but the precise nature ofthe emotion isn't always ulomaticallyclesr—and can be all too easly altered, a you know, oF totaly revised inthe ing room. Tve said there can't be too much fore, too much Emotional fre can charge up iving theatre, but on the sereen there's often trouble eepng itn focus. Strong feelings can fet very messy. What the camera dees, and does uniquely, i ‘photograph thought. Don't you agree? BB: Maybe. I ike to havea ile time on that one (OW: Thats my profoundestconvieton in this whe busines of ‘moviemaking the camera s ot so mucha liedeteetor asa Geiget counter of mental energy. It reitfs something that’ only vaguely, suppostionally detectable to the naked eye, eguters it— ang tot EY BEAN ACO Thi, it ge, one emo BB: How about terre te business of the som Fal sai tack oq Its as close private ov of singing you know loser to im attentive mac rope. 3 3 just because i's anoth iting for the audience. No, with the m aera, you've got a choice of placement re snufling in the darkness, You move les Alexander Woolloott after the Mercury's Mars cher 30, 1938), when a good part ofthe coun ened into believing that New Jersey had been jimaded by Martians, on the rival network at the same tine were Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy; Orson had it This only goes to prove, my bearish boy, that the intel ent people were all istening to a dummy, and all the dum ies were listening to you. PB: Fe often wondered if you had any idea, before you dt that Th Worf the Worlds was gang to get that ind of ese ‘OW: The kind of response, yes—that was merrily anticiDar ball Thence fof curse, was abbergasting Se 7 the ge onthe at unchboardsn rao 8007 ey term the county were lighting up Ike Chsstmas tees. BAG teapot there wat wang inthe strcet and the EDIE OF fe, Twnty mits ina we ha control 07 led cop. They dit kn who to atest OFF Shar We thy dnd cna we tothe omale ofthe Den ee 20 realie, at we plowed on with te desractio® Pras conference fer Wat ofthe Wo sada, 1938, Jersey, thatthe extent of our American lunatic fringe had been | underestimated PB You claimed innocence afterwards. (OW: There were headlines about lawsuits to lion. Should T have pleaded guilty PB: What happened to the lawsuit? (OW: Most of them, a8 it turned out, exited in the fevered ina nation of the newspapers. ‘They'd been losing all that advertising to radio, o here, they reckoned, was 2 lovely chance to strike Back For'a few days, I was combination Benedict Amold and Jolin Wilkes Booth. But people were laughing much too hard, thank God--and pretty soon the papers had to quit PB: What about CBS? OW: The day after the show, all you could find were sound mixers and elevator men, There wasnt an executive inthe building, Dur ing some $12 sn—— His 5 vp been rather edgy, but what was there to grees te aly Feld” because Wat wa ine wre 1 110 ar Feld things ike at seal place, 30 We WOKE the lid blew off. But as I say, at sy peste Sze and extent of were sum ‘het when Pearl Harbor was announceg soi bhe y Sne 1h a patio broadens ty (OW: Dead nah. Teuptd inthe middle of it. I was on the fl soning ag fon Wal Whitman about how beautiful Ans network they sie Pet Harbor’ attackednow, does, 5a a me tying 10 do that again? They interrupted the at sound a there had een a atack. Roosevelt ent mes sae at. Tve forgotten what—I don't have it. Something lie RE JONGP and that kindof thing. Not the same day—he was QR hat about ten days later. (This thought was used as se ea wer lw Ai Force (98), ina scene in which dee ng the Fea Hatlrreprt on radio. —PB) PB: Then the Martian broadcast didn't really hurt you at all. ‘Would yousoy twas aks? Oi, Wal. pte in the movies, Was that ucky? I don‘ know, ‘Amway, thanks to the Martians, we got us a radio sponsor. and seallenly we were a great big commercial program, right up there 529, we CB. DeMille. The next step was Hollywood. ‘Now ther's a station-break,ifI ever heard one. Inthe cathy Its, Orson wrote te following forthe Et inne of new Spanish fm magazin, the name for whch be ‘ad sageested ots eitor, Juan Cobbs, who wa his ase" ‘Canes at Midnight. The name was used, and the 2s stil caled Gift: the peatest ofl directors it had been a sod 204 ted ae The maton pactre whic he had tal ee Selbecome the prioct—e excasive reduce be fort ane ndusty, and on thease He He ‘Meemoth movie fenniee dens was no place 606" was an exile in his own town, a prophet without honor, a ‘ratsman without tools an arist without work. No wonder he hated me. who knew nothing about films, had jut been ven the greatest freedom ever written into a Hollywood con- tract. twas the contract he deserved. I could see that he was pot at all too old fori, and I couldn blame him for feling 1 teas very much too young. We stood under one of those pink Girstnas trees they have out there, and drank our drinks nd stared at each other across a hopeless abys. 1 loved and worshipped him, but he didn't need a disciple. He needed a job. Ihave never really hated Hollywood except for its treat nent of D. W. Grlith, No town, no industry, no profession, ho af form oves so much toa single man. Every lmmaker ‘who ha followed hin. has done just that: followed him. He Thace the frst closeup and moved the fist camera. But he tas more than founding father and a pioneer, his works will Endure with his inventions. The Grifith films are far less ted today than they were a quarter ofa century ago when ‘we drank together under the pink Christinas tre and failed so dsmallyto express what he means to me—t all of us. T have failed again. He is beyond tribute. ‘Anote ataurent in Rome, Cin frie haunt Orson’ (and his friend Fellini's). ef (OW: When I fst came to Hollywood, I wanted to make 2 movie tothe eat days ofthe sent wou have en ec ten. ou cou be freer now, but ss tue, maybe. Now weve so mich farther away from t— PPB: Do your really think Griffith is the best director in histon?pm Dis ls ext a ines on 700 do you thing is lis exe one who's ever made a movie OW: He's influenct of Hollywood when you fist PB, What did 700 th delightfully ndieuous monet? (OW: The move rt ind took it seriously, But Aj abode ty 8 good ys shoul be 0% sure you didnt have the attitude toward Hollywoog ‘Sous pound theres othing go ever made ther, sellout 6 “the town i pretty terrible, you know—the communi and te [spent as litle time there as I could, The minute 4 day's work was over, Iwas on a plane—weekends going down ty eco orp to San Francisco weit tation, as opposed to the movie colony. Tt desevel wae ed got fom me—guarded but genuine, I was ends [Bieal the oldtime sultans and taipans, Even in the days when tas supposed to be blowing it all up, 1 was having dinner withthe Js of Sem Goldwyn and Jack Warner, Dinner, you understand | was careful not to work for them. And they were pretty careful, ‘Moments metican fig taken seriou, too. PB: You knew a lot ofthe older directors? (OW: Most of them—Vidor, Ford, Capra, Fleming, Mily (Lewis Milestone, Woody Van Dyke. They weren't all of them 0 olf thea, of course—but at that epoch they looked a bit old-timey PB: W. S, Van Dyke—he wasn't bad director. » ‘OW: Woody made some very good comedies. And what 3 0 head! Did you know that his retakes sometimes took loge hs orignal shooting schedule? at do you mean? 7 (OW: Hed shoot a Thin Man or something like that in twenty days. Then he'd preview it and come back tothe st fie thity dy of retakes, For comedy, when you're worried 2% laughs, that makes a lot of sense. He gave me some 2's rember: “Just keep it close,” he said, “and keep it movin PB: Did you follow it? you tral. 1 ay away from sae when T cans = ‘my actor are good eno Fe Barges en ae ood: (OW: The story, maybe. The camera? Only when there's a eavon to—not jst forthe fun oft, orto show off. Iwas readings review ‘of somebody's movie the other day-—the etic hated it: "Not since Othello," be sad, “has there been such an exces of camera mone ment.” i guess he was talking about that one short scene where we tied the camera to role sate; while twas photographing me, 1 was pushing it around ona stick That was supposed tobe epilepy, land it only ran about a hundred feet. The rest of the time, we didn't do much hustling about. No crane shots at al, we did't teven have a dolly—just a jeep with some air let out ofthe tires. PB: Did other directors give you advice? OW: No, but they wee all very nice to me. The big ones, mean Ttook alot of trouble geting to know them, and it was worth sort of rubbing movies into my pores PPB: Was it true tht one director told you not to call them “mov. ies" but “motion pictares"> OW: Ab, that was a friend of yours, Peter—that was George Cukor, and remember, he was from the New York stage. That probably had something to do with i. Nowadays, Tm atraid the tword is rather chic, IfS a good English word, though—"movie.” How pompous it to call them “motion pictures" dont mind “firs,” though, do you" PB: No, but I dont like “cinema.” ‘OW: T know what you mean. In the library of Eléonora Duse’s villain alte town in Veneto where we've been shooting just now [The Merchant of Venice}, | found an old book—witten in 1915— shout how movies are made, and it refers to movie actors as “phox toplayers.” How about that? Photoplayers! I'm never going to cal them anything else. PB: 1 have a book from 1929, and they list 250 word to describe ‘talking picture, asking readers to write in ther favorites. And “talkie” was only one of them. Others were things like “actor szaph,” “reeltsux,” and “narrative toned pictures.” OW: I went with my father tothe world premiere in New York of Warmers frst Vitaphone sound picture, which was Don Juan sta- ring Jack Barrymore. I thinkit was the opening right. It was really a silent, with a synchronized sound track full of comy mood ‘music, horse hooves, and clashing swords. But it was preceded by 4 fey Shot tens of authentic airs and Alle, George Jessel telephoning his mother, rani Mastinel ripping hell out of Paglieei. My father lasted about half an boar and then went up the aide dragging me with him. “This,” he sad, “ruinsHe never went back to a movie the movies foreve hue Move thea the mo stay he was 2 chum of Barrymore cate Tong ashe lived: ADS Jack ever was. They'd yah dh re Ths Po ate at KO ‘went into May Robson's OW: You met tH id ad's wardrobe Towne ee to ad rer apna fein ins nl Jakaya, gv. Bul something ese, to ous laces Weds ated a, Pete!—a goKden bo, atrag ns vasa anes ating his teeth against the Nona | ra ba impinge the aby Oa ihtrope tas faa put tbe spectacle. you know, wasnt invariably sa | Sadly foe iy fanny. 1 guess YOU know what he dil tte | pening of Ken | 1B: No, what happened | Ow: Thats the only one of my openings L ever went to ig. | Vor gave hte dimer paty. He asked me who I waatel | TTT aaid Jack There was some worry that he woulda ot | tovllat make i, but he tuned up right atthe appointed ns, | ‘erplendently dinner jacketed and cold sober. And he was stil ap parently very mach on his best behavior when we progres, dur varias ented imousines, to Grauman’s Chinese oF whee itwas. You know the scene—-the screaming fans, arcs sec “there's Cary Ort thei “ere comes Miss Shearer's ca!" The pester withthe dy teeth and the m 7 i hy ern fl network ight co i Snel Conner wee “Te youve come wth ME. Vs Have vou got somehing you ean tell us—speaking # 42 fiend of his?” Jack took the microphone and held a slight Pt, “Tota friend of his,” he sa; “you might sy tat 1 tne lie? You dnt mean to sy Me. Well eit "or Our geriarato host was very excited Here #288 “i al hefner aces the county. "TELA" Jacked him one of those tender ei sles Og ‘eI think ste the plc heard the tut OP ot fact, the bastard son of Ethel and the Pope or we PB: Late Mine sit funny, and it’ going to lead 9+ Welles and Susan Fx in The Groen Goddess, 1939 into another area You were friendly with Barrymore, weren't you tren before you went to Hollywood? ‘GW. Lused to standin the wings when he was playing Hamlet Statnees, thats was a baby then-—holdng his pevate bucket of ‘hampagne. Years later, got into the habit of ying down to Chicago to visit Jack when he was stuck down therein dread Tite charade called My Dear Children. Then later I was there inysef, not ust to vist, but in a dreadful litle charade of my own Pirtab version of The Green Goddess PB: Whats "tab version”? (OW: That's from the language of vaudeille— ded before you were born, I helped to lit PB: With The Green Goddes? OW: A condensed or “tab” version ofthat ripe old piece of high ‘omedy-melodrama. It had been my notion that ths wou to what known a: “the popular taste"—a grave miscalculation. Too bad, because Td dropped a lt of dough just then on a fly highbrow piece called Danton's Death PB: So the melodrama was asort of reaction? (OW: Itwas 2 doomed attempt to recuperate our losses. In Chi cago we dd four-day. And si-a-day, my God, in Steubenville (Ohio. While we were atthe Palace, Jack used to come along and play afternoon shows with ws PB: Barrymore paved a part in that hing? (OW: Well he walked coil that's the word I'm after. You might say that he improvised. Stanislavly Would have been proud of inatitation thatOo owing und he ining wo of a wo ile gatherings of people. And when 1 Secret wound utes a etry ace en atthe time 1939 following was wrt cury ¥ an anon Dei oin te Merry operon sad mere pnd bet Weles was tld byl is friends that he should nt sno vane, When they heard he dently wa, thy a ite a hoped fot the sake of his carer he woud dp 1 a dite, So stead of doing his magic ac be sep ct The Green Goddess down to twenty minutes Resco. Infact, after seeing the twenty-minute version pet bene how George Ariss got two hours out of Ticapenl in Chicago and all went fairly well until the ime es Tra quick change before the last scene. As the Mahs ‘Sah of Rook, Wels wore a turban, a long robe and back enteather bots Under this were the roled-up trowses Ofte dre ite worn the nex soene—sinply yd ping them. When he made the quick change, his dreser ea Fall removed the robe and then just as earefully putt bck ‘on him, This happened twice in the dark. So di several ties thing, Finally, afer the music cue had been played fo thi time by the anxious orchestra and extras were 6S lost oat on the stage, Welles made his entrance asthe Pe sunatly nonchalant ad immaculate Rajah, with bis so 03 tie and colar reversed, pants stil rolled up and an Unit She twoken cigar in his hand, Welles couldn't under ‘wonderful laughter he got with his openi FE When al hae things went wrong, understand 708 ‘eho the merce and td them to demand He ™— ne That mst hav encared you tothe manageMeD ae OW: Tht were enough people inthe audience 19 gen Theta ting, Pte eel Bt a 1, the chief of crew Sc athe brother toh Fond PB: He must have had alot of brothers! OW: Why not? Those Irish families do. Ina 1967 interview for Playboy, Orson said that the film dine tors who appealed the most to him were the “old masten—by which I mean ohn Ford, John Ford and John Ford... With Ford at his est, you fee! tht the movie as lived and breathed inva real world-even though it may have been written by ‘Mother Mache.” PB: I think maybe you were influenced by some of Ford's pic. ‘OW: I don’t quite see that, but then, Tim such a fan of his that it wouldnt be surprising, Once, ater Fd made a couple of pictures Ukimy own, I gota sort of diploma from him—you might call ita ‘ation. This had been pu together ina bar in some sleazy fishing Vilage in Baje California, and it was written, none too -obedly, on the back of an old piece’ of cardboard. Many omate a: offcial- looking stamps were pasted ll over this document, including sey- cal Mexican beer labels. Well, of course 1 had it framed. For ‘many years, untl somebody pinched i, it was the only award I ‘ee used for decoration in my office. PB: What did it say? ‘OW: The text was bref, There was just this simple statement “Orson Welles hasbeen elected.” PB To what? OW: The name of the institution doing me this honor wasn’t ‘Bren, but Duke Wayne had scrawled bis signature as vce-prest- dent of something legible across the Great Sea of Cresta Blanca there were those other names you know so well, Peter—all {hose hairy good companions of Ford's famous clan, PB. I didn’t know you were a member. OW: I wasn't thats why T was 50 pleased and-complimented to ‘eceive that document from John Ford and his merry crew. It ‘mas’ a command fo turn up at any meetings, you understand— itwas mor ikea citation. Iwas just. elected PB; could neverse you as clanamin 5 @ mater of act. OW: Wel, 'm not much of ones, relly. But Ido have a sot ddim, out-of-town membership in Sinata’s thing... 1 was ‘maybe his frst friend in Hollywood, ke him when he was stil 2 Singer with the band. You‘ right, ofeourse, I don't run with thehand 1 ae sll ute cone, na Pak et Fm Sita ef vision a tee Te Hei ed outs hugh te se toe rnc er raent Pee gues you any a cb of your own? OF Ce. ec? Oe ec aya Shen eds ah ate tne 2 non eae ne ane weber as ON Ren be ‘ ° zo our separate ways. ie TS For bat Fe a ie Lat He nd Mee ee ao 2 Ee yer cat ha apd en fd eee iene eee Ov esa vse ea gon cle Sue Ce ee etre mt Eat ew a tole eta had of his real status. “Well, welts said, “how's tet PB: Did Ford inow you'd been studying Stagecoach? eat a a eo ofan remne _ aes, i ‘OW: Why noe T wanted to learn ow to make mov. Py at oo rine eel a oe ao reprint fed Stata en tee mova, ceiling Wal foresaml, tee ae acouleoftow iN OW: Sure there are. 1 ‘you don’t think I ever beth eno e ela | PB: A lot of people say you were. (OW: Alot of people ought to study Stagecoach PB: You sid t's not you fvorte-— OW: Oh, Love mos of his pictures —The Informer and The Quiet ‘Man least ofall. Oh, and that thing with Dake Waynein the South Pacie— PB: Donovan's Ref OW And Grapes of Wrath—he made that into a story about ‘mother love. Sentiment i Jack's vice. When he escapes, you get {perfect kind of innocence. Young Mr. Lincoln, for iestance How rly great thats And what a sense he always has for texture =for the physical existence of things. The Iron Hone —T1l never forget what an effect that had on me asa child. PB: Orion, you claim you werent interested in movies as a chil (OW: Iloved moves It just didnt occur to me to want to make ‘em, Peter, there are maybe dozens of people scattered over the world who care pasionately about fms and dont want to direct. Twas one of them. Hey! What about his comedies? What about Judge Prest? e's such 2 fine comedy dector—people tend to forge that PH: According to Peter Noble's book about you (The Fabulous ‘Oron Welles, 1956), while you were preparing Kane, you ao ran films by many other drectors—Hitcheock, Lang, Vidor, Capa. ‘OW; [never really got to talk to Noble when he was doing that thing: he pasted it tether out of newspapers and magazines, #9 itso fault of his thatthe book is a perfect tessury of minor ‘mation, No, Stegecach was the only picture looked at—in hone terms, 1 mean. You se, I couldn't push my wey onto other peo- Hl Sets. Everybodyd stop apd be polite and Ta ust be in the way. Buti Teouldn't watch, how could learn? Art tured ott, the Bist day Tever walked onto set was my fst day a a dvector "learned whatever I knew in the projection room—from Ford ‘After dinner every night for about & month, T@ run Stagecosc, ‘often wth some diferent technician or department head from the studio, and ask questions, “How was this done?” "Why was this done? It was ike going to schoo. Onon's cutting room in fim studio on the Pelatine Hill, Tye come early for cur sppointment in order to watch hime ‘work Heat a large steffofanitants dnd wes thse movilas, Fumping fm one to the other When i's time forthe lunch——— quis 18 ORSON WELLES 0 ss THY and bottle of Ch we take snd ant andi | boi Tews Famous ruins ae all wound us, the Cyt |e Sp Ps omg ver the studio it es PN neo he mova re, ine dvi Shec standing in Font ay The Meet i sens om the scone The rie Venice. Another angle forthe same sce Thi tes oot in Yugoslavia, Why Vege the thd mei ater had closed incr eke perad gone south tothe Dalmatian coast, which, hea Onn pao the Venetian Emp 's filer hating eet ercture. Onont closeup ie font Teer tha been tke def catches on then om it ou (WW: Weve had to change labs thee times. PB: You've never played Shylock before? ‘OW: No. but Ive alvays wanted to. When Oliver started he atin Teste endo hot my chance bad al tome. Ken Tynan, then the Number Two in that managemes, Tad asked me what Tike todo with them. I said The Mecha. Xena noi nies and seven yes went yin case of wating forthe phone to ring. Then, lst spring, tked me to ditect him in it. I wasn't fre for that, but he'd hea ty ae tent fou remember the story ree caskets 7 hand in marge, suitor has topic the ight one. Wel, Be 's basically a fortune hunter. When he first talks about Por g $25, In Belmonts lady richly leR—and she i fi. te thatfora coe, my ation was for him to get three full ty, catket—choosng in tree diferent disgses. tn othe POS, ‘ome ons the Pace of] Aragon ad the Prince of MOS ie ‘well as himself; that way he can’t lose. Larry wanted sae him that for his own production, but I asked him to et Se ean for myself. You can only do it once. a fou want do ot ‘cot Oe pent nen size scren that’s suitable. i Sie bac sour chrono, wat yoo" ates . * deal to make Heart of Darkness? eth OW Pety mich, Iwas realy to make anything, ROME 3 ariel tere Siete So i inside i Hate ear Sa atte ea carta Heater fia’ aioe isla teks and ul pcan teint Hinaitehcg Seamed sagen ng Enevocnsariecm wee Ei leeeaartatn aria aero e oe ae eet eno pti ecb seem a an relent a ee SA ett Gene Sy Be RE aw re i eta at terribly good in the scene, BRS tac tty Selajwitia OW: Yes. Inever saw it. We di the testwith a hand-held camera, cts he erie, Daisies ot eer ord spies MT Se cae Shetek eumunararamd arene naa seis that needs a lot of words, I haven't got anything at all against a lot ‘of words in movies, by the wa¥.Welles examining mode ofthe Heart of Darkness temple with sistent {incor Edvard Donohut No, wore good Fae ao ee, pe. Conrad I dnt bv OF Cera aout ane word BB ctaah ne poy see Fe Nar ha Hs ai ye Sie ie dca foes a TENS edna atten a8 Fe aout igectety apes to yo? oe Ft eh Conrad story is movie. There's never been a Conrad move ten eon nce weve ane tas wet, ME was terribly loyal to Conrad. And I think that, the m wuite Srv ee pang thane «smash on nm Think what Lord Jim could have been, if some , pad ot cg ja PB re any ney pur mind between Het of tent an! iia ‘OW: Notat all Heat of Darkness was a kind of parableg ado? Renee ie ine ene nrkngon that, 1939-190 i’ dark as anh omy” p tering started, and fascism was the big issue ofthe time, Tt was a ver lear parable DPB: Is that what especialy interested you? OW: Patt of it. The story is marvelously interesting, and it does fave one thing which i in Kane, and which ise thing 1 like very much in pictures: the search for the key to something, W's a litle Bit ike the plots of some ofthe best fairy stories, PB: It's in Mr. Avkadin, too. ‘OW: Yes, that's right, PB: You were going to play Marlow, and narrate it OW: Yes. So youd sce my reflection occasionally. There was Some thought that I would play Kurtz as well, but I decided against that PB: Who would you have cast in the role? OW: I hadn't cast it realy—the decision not to play Kurtz was nade right at the end, just before the picture fell through. T de- ‘ed I was alittle too obvious for Kurtz and it should be a more fomantic kind of personality, less ofa heavy man—even a young hheavy man. T think t should have been a more surprising person ss Kurz than I woud have been. ‘Anyway, after we gave it up, I suggested that, while I prepare something more serio, I doa picture for them called The Smiler Wwth a Knife so the yetr wouldn't be lost. There was an actress Under contract at RKO then making a picture, ealed Lucille Ball, ‘who I thought was the greatest female clown around—she could have been just superb in this picture. And they said, “What do you want Lucille Ball for? She's practically washed up in pictues.” This was thirty years ago—imagine how idiotic they were. They didnt know what they had. So we dia’ make Smile witha Knife PB: In your mind, what was Smiler witha Knife belike visually? Something like The Lady from Shanghei? ‘OW: No. Lady from Shenghet was franky an exercise in eroticism and exoticism—almost erotic for its time. And Smiler with « Knife ‘would have been a farce about very likable, handsome, extremely attractive young man who's planning tobe the dictator of America “sone of those plots where you don’t know which cop sin his pay. ‘The basic thing that I loved about i isthat the girl doesn’t dare go to any policeman, because she doesnt know which one has gone PB: How does it tum out? OW: Oy it turns out all right. Helzomes to a bad end, but notRE Raa ntstore Santa Claus and a unt as ben der ng tat Ll has done with a St a ale hah ay what a eae nl face T ever got near to malt todo ten A Raid Reel and Cate Lombard nt PB eR tat st appene YOu as director? Ss esta OF et fle word, eae ya yds. Re eee was some Kind of romance euler ling mio ith Gable and mari SS drag that time. But we became ee ‘ra ee gw ageat deal ofeach other, and performed may do hod se wa sl for me. She simply cout meet fon he Sudo to which she was under commits | Ret esind Ruse may vellhave turned me down, [een tetaberomebaly it may have been Russell But my Et ‘hove ws Lacie PB. Wereyou goingto be init? OW: No, wouldnt have been Aca, Taal state Citien Ken ea, whch was going to tke longer to wi, we wee png to mak Smuer witha Knife whe that wast Sicha baal why Hemnan Mankewiz was ie Gad pear of Kan whe ta ot Slr rat om the Hot Eden in Rome He ha oe linner to finish the Shylock sequence and is maktr dof mt an ures fe a) et 1. and writs unt iti time to go tothe studio, ' aiving the tape recorder some very dit) looks | duilty. Orcom says that's just as it should be. ‘OW: Tonight you do the ‘talking. Oy gat bk about me, Orson. ley what lt mle book shot Beeman si PB: Bary ce in a , tore was making a sort of guest appeafaNch pei EejiSamay Kae, the bandleader, For some une seensgitt fad recite one of Hamlet’ soto fang ale Hine together and gave a realy WO! indo thing that makes the stagebane toviae. Only this ime the cou’ appaid—everyne was in {Gis Thedretor came upto Barymore ad ad, "There int we dgubt aboot Jack, youre sl the gree scorn the evi Baryore gave sone of hse famous snot, “Dont Jeeta tha he salle are only wo pet tton Char Exon and Omen Wels OW aera sgt pee Now can wet sbout Chapin? PB Wha do yu bony of hat aden OW Bigs ompinent of ny ie, Worth «aces of Oscars PB: Butdoyou ape Osho Capon Ym not sure, Peter. Usually I don't think of myself as an actor at all. Oh, Tm not ashamed oft lke Brando— PB: Is he really? ‘OW: He says so, and I think he means t. As forme ... well, ve seldom felt any sort of secure pride in that department. But, then, that’s probably a lack everyone feels and suffers from except the real idiots. It might be thought that you have to be prety wel paffed up in self-esteem to beable to face the public at all, But the ‘most interesting actors Ive known are, every one ofthem, riddled with selfdoubt. As you can see, m trying to worm my way ‘out ofthis one. How am I doing? PB: Let's get att another way— (OW: Lets talk about Chaplin, PB: All ight, ate you as great an actor ashe i? ‘OW: Wearen'tin the same league, Peter. Or even the same game PB: Are you a greater actor than Barrymore? ‘OW: OF course not In his time (and mine), nobody in our lan- ‘age was ever as good as Barymore «or as bad, ‘What I really do have in common with Jacks lack o vocation He himself played the part of an actor because that was the role that he'd been given by life. He did't love acting. Neither do ‘We both loved the theatre, though, I know I old it, s he did {ane ind respec. vocation has to do with the simple pleas YoU bave in doing your job. Charic wa a happier actor because 1 was bom fort... Let's talk about Charlie. 2B: You sill haven't answered my question. Lather hoped we'd los it inthe shut, Orefouve Played most of the grt parts—Macbeth, Brutus,3, : Tea s "ve been hcky—Leat, Richard II, Falta. tag ow: fea epee ar oo ig fr hy act oe soa anage tocompletl fll them. The nearest Ie =e nay NE NEB © hi for si eg Eup ot dnt ary bom emt rack at ons (Ce ity. Bat este bs even make vith the pub el or Lear Sore He tok on practically everything in tt at Maus ct rave, ad the peole packed into se hin nd he was bad? ede Pach Cd ag OM von tlhp.” Garick, of course, didnt have much eet eo Bet Bran didn thave much ofa talent. More than anytgg, thats what drove me to Hollywood. With the notices he was get TSA the busines be was doin, I decided there wasnt mech Ha ef for me on Bradway, Somebody had to get out of town personal prejudice, sure—but try to Bnd an actor who has oni word for him, The great roles, you see, endow an actor wi Sinething tha isn't necessary elated at al to his real met Dace in the pecking order, prestige... . Are we changing the ub- ieee ute il tying to. Berne toh sea vans, In your dogged way, you're trying to get me to say whit think of mse PB: Asan actor. . (OW: All right—to presume to play the great parts you bat fev tha pote pet aco hat wha ou oti Wel, you have to think that just maybe you could be five you that much PB: Sounds like fale modesty tome. ee (OW: No, I never pretended to be modest, though 1m. a ‘ragga I seem to bein my publicity. When 1 am gil”, ing its defensive—when I've found myself some 1" Or when | lose my coo over some sort of Evans oF APN be Nobody who tales on anything big and tough ca fT mast. But he cannot afford not to be humble. Is thst Pen Fre humble? : (OW: aproachte bi ough fab wth hari et love o act, Peter, but I love the craft, the at Of ‘werk in any art form, you've simply got to love | | insitution-—a whole lot more than you love yourself. Sounds mpots uti common sense ‘What kind of actor am Tr OK, let's ty to level wth that one Fist im ess than Iwas. Les versatile. A thin man can pay 9 at san, anda young man can play an old man, but it doc werk the other way around, As the yar it my range, Vlte otk that maybe Ive gained litle bitin focus, in concentration, Bat dente no patie, note thin Youve gt hf lot ing for you when you dont ive a damn, A tha’ smethi Exelon Nowadye doves damn; and at pats me ote the Zerarchery range. 1 care 2 whole Tot more than anyboy PB: Wel, ifyou don ik acting, Orson, how can you “care™? OW: Idon'tenioy it In front ofthe camer, ls than pleasure forme and often very cose to psn. But when Ido itm anious very asous indent do wel. Even the loosest fb and T ave to accept a lot of those) ever gt less than the best feat sive. The lousy ones take more out of you. If youre bad in bad part—or small ins smal part you vanth It takes ot of ert font remain visible PB: OK, Til change the subject. OW: Thank God PB, What movies did you like ata boy? OW: The ist one Lean remember was The Binh ofa Netion-—a revival probably, but witha ig symphony orchesta inthe pit Tt frightened and depressed me. 1 was batty about Robin Hood sad ‘The Tie Musheten. Faibanks was my olSeniy,of cou Lany Overs, too. He told me. We were both hooked on han Nobody sine has ever swashbuctld like that, or moved So ben Luly, or seemed so charming, innocently conceited The Hunchback of Notre Dame™tat wasabi event. Lon Chaney ‘aw it ast year agin on TV andl sl think twas great. PB: terms of ating? ‘OW: With Chaney it wasnt just the makeup. No, tat was a fab- ous silentscreen performance. Remember Laughton’ perfor: ‘mance? Charles cou be supeth, but as Quasimodo he was ast ne of those shambling village idiots. AS a chil, of course, the movies I saw were the ones I got taken to. went with my other, [emember, to se Nanook ofthe North. She adored My fatier went to the movies fr ane sfternoonsooare, and in ‘ore comfonable of the movie places they didn show freOOOO She we were CoS Erne we dnt ete ad wee ae PB: You never saw Lang's German Blt ‘OW: Only those he did later in America-—you did a book the great UFA dass, nothing. Anyway, I was always much mo interested inthe actors. Lstillam. Actors are the great underae} Pruch like the ones who were considered very fine back in the eo TD canola. The Vnd of vies em OM; Of Mano, Tha nd of aves bt a I aac Li a oa eta Aen ec tnesage tiny sc cs aad ha ye 1g bn sl Toll od Linge ae Jept in bed. Quite literally, ' laughed myself sick. Bill Fields only had to cross a room, you know, and I'd be retching with roa Se ee at hen ae tae Ma Lisette class, middle-American, all-American college boy. ‘Theres dbvious poetry to it, and—they miss that incredible tes briliance. The construction of Safety Last, for instante it again only a few years ago. As a piece of comic 3 Brea Fe wr Seer oe He was, aknost entirely, his own gag man. Really # #7 ey sint ey om ar ge ea Se ee pero high. Keaton was beyond all praise very great See ers mee 'a superb director. In the last analysis, Russian any ab fi PB: Did you get to know any of these people? jo tw (OW: Af them. Tgp to Know Lio rough yo! ‘th memes of the same magical fraternity. What ® Bil Feds was fiend of my fathers. 1 ued to see him ite a bi after came to Hollywood. Keaton oo was hckyennigh tage to know him aly well jus a heen of isda. Fa Whe hw ow anda (OW: I gues o—he dda give you any Feason to suspect it The Stage Door Canten-—a sort of caaretvestaurant for servicemen tun by show people—ve bath used to work there. 1 id mpc and he washed dishes, for Gd sake. Keaton, one ofthe gat! What shout The Genera ay eal movi, nt Now, nally, Keaton’s been “discovered.” Too late todo him any pod, {i ctue-he lve l thee long yearn ipa, and he fs $5 the sun was coming out again, he died. Twish Ya known hin etter than Tdi. A temendously nice person, you now, but ao aman of secrets. ean even imagine what they were PB; What do you thnk of ery Lewis? OW: When he goes to fa, he's heavens just when he des fp oo far that hes unendurable aug) Now be wants tobe 2 af the community, andi shows in evry move ofhis body. But, God he canbe Funny Hedi a scene in move Taw in Pts about ght years ago where he keeps yng to fx Oe hat ona gangsters head— Pb: The Ladies Men. (QW: And got so sick laughing it was ike in my childhood with Fields really ha s kind of heat attack from laughing. Iwas one ofthe Fastest things Tver seen in my ie Tinow aot more about Chaplin-a whole lot more. Shall we tak about Charlie? PB, Yes, but later Now let's tlk about you. Your Est movie OW: Ah, that was s documentary PB. A documentary? T never heard of hit OW: Made right herein Rome —s highly atti study in ofthe big church that beas your name featuring Sigicant Ar= slitectural Dea, This was hand-held throughout, mind yo, 50 ‘twa really way aead ofits tine, Igo isinated with that foun {ain—Antonioni atthe very sumiut of his powers never eld Single shot so long. Then, tomy hora, the very stant Td ran {nf im, the peat dors af the cathe wee Bung open and, ‘ith mighty fanfare of trumpets, outesme the Pope on alan Guin surrounded by Swiss Guards anda hundred cardinals Wel, With an empty egmera, you could st T mised the parade. Aer that experience, I retired asa filmmaker. If you're aiming to makequis 1S ORSON WELLES ahs study what they cal “in depth.” YoU might jt th, sears old at the time iat down ay Oe To an fora weeks tut. A summer theatre wy PB: And you still insist you weren't interested then in making (OW: Wel, 1 was interested in that: | id a ofa eet |i it wes made during the Smet Festive fp, [inode O30 at ‘school he hd attended 34, Oe en tore, yume as fest Iran ile ver fie mites and isc of Age. pest! Te tle fm els im stranges sural 89 yd coe i ie male ining Joke and how he comes to beckon th 8 [me Non tom fo ace Welle et Imaieap to he pave with od What's fescinating—apart fom the obvesso™ Tou Catenexping om th Washington Mart in Too Much Job on, 1938, a | which as conned elmot a itmoti though Ono Brest he sgt mst he The | hth ou with smasng sed ond verte |e of onde sng th lary nt coal crate codon that wna pt end ete Tasted him abut it oe time ater, in New Yr, fer letting him read my comments. ma OW: Hearts of Age? What does that mean, I wonder? PB: Wel it was sureaitic: (OW: It was a send-up, Peter—just «charade: Sunday-afternoon fn out'om the lawn T dont much cate for surealism on the a= __ Tats Ad M50 fod gan woo Ps Ele ba ft 5 csson-thage a as ite Were wing mS, Coane Cage int smn now It has tod up than a eam Pets considered a great clasic. You saw en peat "to New York. That and Blood of « Poet by oa, tine lhl Un Chin Andalou. It was a combination of 2? Fafa been prety much antisurrealist. Batt was 2) ll had a movie camera, Simple a5 that. It was bg forthe school : a “Who's this Welles?” Pat asked of Louie, the studio bookie, “Every time I pick up a pape the got about this Welles. “You know, he's that beard," explained Losi —F. Scorr Frrzceuin, “Pat Hobby and Orson Well’ Garden in the Roman Film Studios (another luneh). PB: Why the beard? oe not? That's come to be kind of ane question regularly across the generation gap nowadays. » PB: Was there some sort of gap like that in Hollywood 3" Jou were concemed? OW: The gp was manly between the people I knew and these lat The ist group was friendly. Even the old diosa ee sheer the Gokdwyns and the Wamers—I was on cheetil 227° ‘ut terms with all of them right from the stat. As for the PE vel, Td worn it for The Green Goddess, 1 don ike SM ay trsns, and when I got off at the station in Los net ‘ow moch t was disturbing the community it seemed Fra {Peep ton for a while, It would have been useftl Sh, tine Gd made that picture, which of cour | el ome the whiskers would make me Ha deen eee whiskers would PB, Didn't Guinn “Big Boy” Willams cut off your tie ina restan- tt na hat ea a ‘OW: That was in Chaen's we went outside and sated a fh, Ba got Ica pull sap he ne hing wo oma air reall, without myeh conviction on anybody’s part. Errol Flynn sicked him onto me. PB, thovght you were good frends wth lynn, OW: Later, When I ist came ot, Erol was one of the leaders of the ant Welles fection, Ward Bond was another PB: Then you mainly kept the bese fr intation value? OW: Lets say thet Idi fancy the sd of elaborating with ie PBI think there was more tothe prejudice than juste bead OW: Sure, There was the contact Everybody wants a contract He that Director poducerwrter-actor wih absolute artiste com tro Imagine! A certain amount of outage alway goes with iting {gsher Tere was the unigue guser of all tne—what evry fess always wanted—and here was a fellow whold never even teen ina move who kad it PPB, Did you contactaly hae the right to the Sal cu? OW: For the fist tne in theindsty shistory. And the important ‘hing was that nobody, but nobody, could even se the rushes or come onthe et. PB How did you know to ak for that (OW: Well, for quite a while Hollywood had kept making me of- fers, whic, inthe natural order of things, kept geting better a8 Kept turning them down. Twas paving smart, you derstand Movies sounded like fan, but was busy and happy wth my own ‘heats and radio show. ‘The more Ie ear, they more they di and when they me the lst and wiles of my demarss, wel, then, of cours I gave in happily. Not, believe me, with any burn ing sense of vocation, but, eather, inthe spin that Td become sn actor in Ieland and 2 bllghter in Spi. FB: ‘ulnar When I Tet Dublin, yu se, 1d also lef the stage— PB: To bea bullfghter? Ok Ta wing 0 beating woul ep me ot of PB: Fighting bull seems ite drastic. (OW: Wel, 1 had this scholarship for Harvard. Even after that ‘rary Ish eat, I stil gure the ime thing ight catch up wth“4 of for te tory Coast of Africa, made my y sme So I ook of Fo aly setled down in Seville, in he? ° thrash Mocca nice apartment in what Billy Hons of Tea byothell—separate but equal. Had ye sl ae ond used £0 buy ‘inks Tor ere Bom ute carne. bout ity bucks a week tolive lke Dra Aad ia that by hol up every once in aed Jam a yt tres fr the pus. What a year that was Tye stn wet oan tou ye eect ich of ambition. " thet ve mimamraee tcf that own—the bulls are the whele mean in that com ng and int, I you were seventeen and 2rich young pine Duss ie kee, yOU could get to be bullighter byte 4.28) Npelent of buying the bul. So that was how I worked ‘Alon very small, provincial scale, you understand, but towa, theend fora couple of times, T got paid myself. Almost nothing tht ail fora few minutes there {was apro—scared to death, o fuse, bt having the ime of my ie ‘Sul even with all that untold Yankee wealth of mine, Td never have got mya out thereon the sand in front ofthe twisted hos oa perfect cathedral ofa becer (calf|—and before audience of Shor tempered and supercritical small-town Andalusian bull ex persif [really cred. No, what made that itl taurine caper Pssble was what had made it posible fr me, a year ear, © TEnnch myseifin show business nota a spar-carir, but as PB Let's ear about that. ‘OW: Wel, that was the summer Tid been traveling through le Jaud with donkey and cart and a big box of paints. 1 was ein! bea painter then-—T cared about that, allright. And I stil wit that Fd been good enough. PB: Youre sie you weren'? OW: Yes, damn it PB: So you went into the theatre. wl. eran. Peter. It wa the same kind of joke asthe F PB: You paid to act OW: Thal no money—thet was how it happened. Fd been ing under the cart, but now winter was approaching sr Oy the threat of Harvard The only way 1 could avoid being ‘ato et myself some kindof job. PB: You were sot ofa dropout (OW: Perfect. PB: So you just said, “I want tobe a star: ‘OW, T said I was a sir lady. PB: You were sixteen OW: Ah, but I was stoking cigars, Peter—sort of making myself ‘lder to escape the truant officers. Td worked up this deep voice hat Fim still stuck with (a specialist once told me 1 was actually born with the vocal cords ofa tenor). And I lied like a maniac. PB: But why did they believe you? ‘OW: I was from America, and in Ireland, back in those distant ‘ays, anything American was possible, however unlikely. 1 in formed the directors of the Cate Theatre that 1 was that same Welles they must have read) about, Just for the lark of i, I tld them I'd enjoy the experience of playing with their company for a play or two-that iss any leading roles were available. Nowadays Filton Bawards—that fine director and my dear old friend—wall tell you that he didnt swallow a word of i. But he did manage to fet some of it down, because he started me off with as juicy a Principal part as any’ grizzled veteran could ask for, in Jew Suse So that’s how I began—right at the top. 've been working my way down ever since. PB: You were ahi, too, werent you? ‘OW: What i it, tiety-elaht years ago? T've never really equaled that success. Certainly not in the bullrng! PB: Weren't you justa litle frightened? (OW: By the bulls? There's nobody who isn’t. But stage fright is a ‘malady that comes with experience. Oh, im not pretending I was “pathetic, What got me up thereon the stage and out there in the balling wasn't a lack of nerves, it was just an absolutely perfect lack of ambition. T sew no glotious future for myself in either episode.GUNMAS CITIZEN KANE “HEARS ESTON STURGES HERMAN J.MANKIEWICZ = MUSIC = DEEF FOCUS © GREGG TOLAND = CEILINGS AND CAMERA PLACEMENTS = PARENTS = DR BERNSTEIN = ROGER HILL = MAKEUP THE MARCH OF TIME = GOLOR VS- AND.WHITE © KANE'S RELEASE = OSCARS GRAND DETOUR to be Perea Bocpanovic: What was your intl eatin Hearst blacklist on Citizen Kane? at ve Renee We expected it before it happened sat Ahan expect was that the hm might be destroyed: pan ak war ese “To the negative being burned? Te he na because 1 dogpe # PB. What OW. Thee was a screening for Joe Breen, whé censorship then, to decide whether it would be burned ur wit Because there was tremendous payola on. from all the ot to gett burned “ PB: All because of Hearts people OW: Yes. Everybody sad, "Don't make trouble, burn it up, wi eset them take thei losses” And | gota rosary, puttin my fucket, and when the running was over, i Frnt of Joe Breen, a ood lish Catholic, Lstood up a nd said, “Oh, excuse me,” and Jed i up and putt back in sy et iT hadn't done that, there would be no Citizen Ka | Guaymas, Mexico. Onon is there acting in Mike Nichol | move of Catch-22, and they've given him the day off, so we've si un eta on tr sete whe fart i Fl but Cin Kare ond ‘A pestiroduction ausand Welle (with Buck Henry, at right) during the shoting got sidetrached-—1 suppose purposely—so Tm trying asin, ‘and Onon isn't to happy about it PB: You act 2s though it’s painful for you to remember any of these things. GW: Oh everything Just awful PB: Are you upto trying Kane? , OW: Ob Christ Allrght—Het' gett over with Ica be avi fpedon the sujet, because T havent seen the picture since the last finshed print in an empty theatre in downtow™ slow mths before lee ‘Wait a minute—you went to the premiere OW: Iwent tothe premiere and went ght out the side door it darted the way fahvays do, Because it makes me RETR fr tobe able to change anything. Tt eomes from being inthe Ug, wou used to go to the opening, then go backstage a4 Sh ‘things. When I've got a play running, I go on changing ST oan I day athe show. And it's aut haveit al oe 7° ever. That's why I don't go to see them. PRT un he omer pantry father’ hte ‘Cezanne, who kept going into people's houses after be ‘jemtine’. GUAYMAS 3 COW: Yes! They'd smell wet paint and know Cézanne had been in That’ just the way fel, Tike to go to the projection booth and start smipping away. $5" Giftth did-all during the run of The Birth of Nation, he'd Fe upin the booth making changes baw? Well it was easier then. Silent picture—no damn sound to PB: So when Hearst intervened BW: Hearst didn't really intervenie—they intervened on his be PAE It began badly, because Louella Parsons had been on the set ba pad writen a wonderful article about this lovely picture I was aiing. And it was Hedda Hopper, her old enemy, who blew the Thatle, Think ofthe weapon that gave to the competition! After That twas the Heart hatchet men who were after me, more than the old man himse PB. But wasnt Hedda Hopper supposedly your friend? OW: Sure—but what a break for her a6 a: newspaperwoman, ‘Could’ blame her. Imagine what that did to Lovella PB: After Kone, you once id, “Someday, if Mr. Hearst isnt agbtflly careful, 'm going to make am that's really based on his life.” OW: Wel, you know, the real story of Hearst i quite different from Kane’. And Hearst himself—as a man, I mean—was very different. "There's al tha stuf about [Robert] McCormick and the ‘opera. I drew alot from that, fom my Chicago days. And Samuel Insull, As for Marion {Davies}, she was an extraordinary woman noting like the character Dorothy. Comingore played in the ‘movie. always felt he had the right to be upset about that. PB: Davies was actually quite a good actress— ‘OW: And a fine woman. She pawned all her jewels for the old man when he was broke. Or broke enough to needa lot of cash She gave him everything, stayed by hin—just the opposite of Susan. That was the libel. In other words, Kane was better than Heats, and Marion was much beter than Susan—whom people wrongly equated with her PB: You once said that Kane would have enjoyed seeing a flm ewe A Pe ie, but not Hearst. : Wel that’s what I said to Hears. PB: Wheat? "! (OW: 1 found myself alone with himin an elevator in the Fairmont tel on the night Kane was opering in San Francisco, He and—— ras 18 8 i ———— sums, s0 lintroduced myself and asked any the a been chu ofthe picture He didnt ang iff like to come at his floor, I said, “Charles Foster Kay And ase was geting Nel... And Kane would have, you eal ae Ps He ished Jed ean he review of Susan a eating possessions come fron? Far Whe di Kanes at of opting roses come ng (OW: That come ee ie paving cash for objects he nee hs Tee do eo a yy vie nd of mid. Beene he never made any mone, ws ick rd Jn of newspapers basically lost money. Hewat, poet lure. He pst acquired things, most of wlch in every ed, remained inboxes. t's really a quite accurate rot Hearst tothat extent Fe oe moment in Kone where 1 thought yours ing was self-conscious— ae GW Tall me. Tl tell you the bad moment for me—in ene wty Susan, the ese when Thad She muon my ‘hate real photy movie moment. Look tit agsin—t re havent seen t since I made i, but— PB I's not wo bad as— ‘OW. Notso bad, but i's areal movie actor with mud on his Whats yours? Becerra toteep the Dedaation of Principles you WFOte— ey ‘OW. Oh, but that’s supposed to be a forced smile. Its beons® do’ thirk the document shoud be kept don't believe PB: Really? OW: Ofcourse 2 PB: You mean Kane didn't mean what he'd wntten eve” # vrei OW No 1 i realiz that. mee No. You werent supposed to believe that smile. He Se that somebody wants fo hep that a document » PB (laugh): Allright, then I take it back—its a great tne bat (laughing: Anyway, t's not supposed to be a Te8) g aot fk smile of somebody deeply embarrased, bein ears wh ‘sa pont to that moment. Nobody signals it, But 5) cuay 1 meant. Because I alvays believed that Kane dacsn't mean all that He only wants to convince the two fellows. He wants them tobe it ecause he want them tobe his slaves But he doen't Televe n anything He''a damned man, you know. He’ onc of those damned people that like to pla and make movies aboct PBs there's a di written by Preston Strges called The Power Tie te Clr (193] which hasbeen sad to ave infuenced you inthe fashback se of Kane Ts that true? ‘GW: No. L never saw it Ive heard that it has strong similar rene of those ouneidences. Tan a great fan of Sturges and Tm Fate | didnt sce it He never accused me of it—we were great Efums—but I fut never saw it.I saw only his comedis. Bat 1 Toul be honoted to it anything fom Sturges, because have very high mia for i PB You were frends OW. Rigt up til the end of hi efi 1959), And 1 knew him fefore I'went to Hllywood, in fact, Ifist met him when Twas about thiten and gong to school t Todd Wondefl fellow, and Think «peat fimmake, ast tamed out mid he wrote marcous dialogue. OW: Stated nw hospital, He was'a businessman until he was Shou forty. He go very sick and layin te hospital and decided to ‘rit play, Stet Dshonouble, which ran eight years some, thing on Broadway, And that made him a water. Then later he Ieeae a director He had never thought oft before i What happened ohn Europe the 1950 eon mae (OW: He was just trying to raise money for a picture. Nobod would sve hi a job Simpl as that . FB. The idea forte famous breast scene between Kane and is ct wife the nine-year deeiration of ther mariage tld ‘hough one conning conversation ove five fash pana) sas stolen from The Lng Chratmas Diner of Thorton Wier 3 one-act ply, which alone Christmas des that + ou through something Hike siya ofa fame atime Yes, they al siting at dinnet, ad they get old people ‘hee baby casas by, and clin and everything ‘Thar they ever leave the table anid that egos wa he des ofthis play. {it he breakfast scene thinking Td mented it Tt wasnt inthe “it onignally. And when I wasglos nied with ts sud.etwas hs toe” Hewat ritod tend een Bm er eR, en Ni OW, Ye Me novel The Eighth Days marvelous FD i ee ca sa en Merl ng tobe several breakfast Scenes—yoy OW: Wal i have ben writen in the Seit-—many ey can see ons, And may idea was simply to photograph it as, sh cat ene wilt soles ut whan ha nous brea Conversation was writen before; alt oft and forth, Some oh fend two oF three days before, dung 8 tine, ws invented hear important was (Herman J.] Mankiewie in log Cee toe FY red hm. People id He was much aid, 5 know. ; $B, acter his prt inthe writing of Kane. . Wel Ive rst st of his other ered. z Bah he nl with sta lot of bad weiter ave wndet credits PB: Can you explain that? ncn ‘OW: Luck The lucky bad writers got good directors who 6 trie. Some ofthese, ike Hawks and McCarey, weote Indeed, Screenwriters didn’t like that all. Think of those inthe fm factories. They had to punch in eve ayn font ht typewriters intone tele ings.” The way they saw it the director was = er becuase end what realy matered 28, + hres, of course, was the man actually making the PIT Tigstuio system often made witer fee like second cog, of 5 mw mater how good the money was, They laushed © ty cours, and provided a good deal of the best Fun ray, 102 ood, you understand, was sil a funny place. But bahay _ fw, alt of them were pretty bitter and miserable: Aha j "is more miserable, more bitter, and funnier thay yes ‘perfect monument of self-destruction. But, you kno" terness wasn't focused straight onto you, he was the best com. PB: How di the story of Kane begin? OW: Fd been nursing an old notion—the idea of telling the same thing several times—and showing exactly the same scene feom snholy different poins of view. Basically, the idea Rashomon used ltr on Mank ed a we tated Searching the ma twas ong to be about. Some big American figure—could’'t bea po fcian, because you'd have fo pinpoint him. Howard Hughes was the Birt idea. But we got pretty quickly to the pres lords, PB: The first drafs were in separate versions, so when was the ‘whole construction ofthe script—the intricate flashback pattern worked out between you? (OW: ‘The actual writing came only after lots of tak, naturally just the two of us, yeling at each other—not too angrily PB: What about the Rashomon idea? I stil there toa degre. OW: It withered away from what was originally intended. 1 wanted the man toem avery diferent person depending on who ves talking about him. “Rosebud” was Mank’, and the many- Sided gimmick was mine. Rosebud remained, because it was the ‘only way we could find to gt off, as they used to say in vaudeville Wmanages to work, but I'm stil not too keen about it, and I don't think that he was, either. The whole shtick isthe sor of thing that can finally date, in some funny way. PB: Toward the close, you have the eporter say that it doesn't rater what it means— (OW: We did everthing we could to take the mickey out of it PB: The reporter says at the end, “Charles Foster Kane was aman who got everything he wanted, and then lost it. Maybe Rosebud vas something he couldnt get or something he lost, but i wouldn't have explained anything. OW: I guess you might cal that disclaimer—a bit comy, too. More than abt. And itssmine, 'm afd. PB: I read the script that went into production... . There were 0 many things you changed on the stor, anyway, after youd started shooting. From the point ofwew of Kene's character, one ofthe most interesting isthe scene where you're remaking the front page for about the twentieth time. In the script, Kane is atrogant and rather nasty tothe typesetr. Inthe movi, he's very nice, even rather sweet, How did tat evolve? ‘OW: Well alle hed was charm—besdes the money. He was oneS$ ORS table monsters who ate able to com, able athe! or atime without giving too much m, e's lege; he wa raised by a bank, mete, He return, Certainly not OTF ople often do. So when he change, uses charm the way gs dane on the basis of a sort of charm, ¥f course it's the fist page, of cours Charlie Kane was a man-eater, PB. Well, why was COW: H found out me PB: And what were the 1 ‘OW, Well, he only came maybe, it was twice 2 out the character as I went along veions of Mankiewicz to these change nce to the set for a vist. Or, st dated August 26, 1940, which I came Here & + memo, from Herbert Drake, Merry across after this conversation, Productions’ pres agent: ve, CONVERSATION WIT ERMA 8 scouraner ie ore am tet Some ee nse anes) You sah oreo ty Comore [as Susan Alexander Kane ie od toe M.sugessyou esoat the A tic City cabaret scene. [Miss Comingore had been care tnade yp tolonk aba as posible] rs 5. There are ‘not enough. standard movie convent being observed including to few closeups and very ile = SHeet (193 later, The Mercury Shakespeare, 1939, 7 | ted wth Orson, bein ike this (OW STUDYING SHAKESPEARE'S LAYS Don't! Read them. Enjoy them. Act them. Shakespeare might not be surprised to know that his plays are still bringing money to producers and fame to actors throughout the world. He would be greatly surprised, how- ‘ever, 0 know that they are studied (by compulsion) in the ‘classroom; that they are conned by scholars, dissected by ped- fants, and fed in synthetic and minute and quite distasteful doses to students, much in the same manner as are capsules (of Cicero's Letters and pellets of Euclid’s Geometry. ... Put ‘Shakespeare where he belongs—on the stage. (OW; Roger is now eighty something, runs a chartering sevice in Fonda, and he helped me wth the Boats on The Dep wen I sot inthe Bahamas. He's always been grat box! fellow-he was ale “Shipper” at school Ph Todd Scot? OW: Yes: He wath son ofthe owner, When I was there he was the attics coach. He only became the headnater afr ef Bute waa gat iafuenc in that check Pi How old were your ‘OW: Wel I wnt there tree year, and my las year 1s four om. Pe And he? OW Must have been twenty-eight thiy—I realy dont know an imagine fe witht fim, and I go Yen yeas without ecg im bi doesnt sem te en en, berate ko a al tine He was great direc nfcoce in my fethe bgt by all ods T want to be lite him. Exerting he thoughts L ested think and that wast ue of Dr. Berea » 8 Onyour ier 1 father My father wa very strange man, Fscnat- ing Great wt and grea rconteur Be aaa you take op pining git aer— OW Tp, aay, fm he inte Lou wal, bu tat ous sac wel at would sake you ink ean at i advanced ON. What wold ate you think ea at aval ager Realy No. T got through school because I pal a boy called Gug-Well make for Kane. {bcm o take that sort of drudgery off my shoulders. For ‘Gugenheamdid most ofthe papervorkon Latin declension ferme. graded magne um oud Eve Bead in the Ala Johnston pieces in The Saturday Even foe Juan 2 2 ebay 3 190] hat you neve cil that you wanted fo escape chile OW: That's true. a Have you ever waned to return? OW. rastiithood | I've been back there: ier al eft ‘ead that vou dislike A Midsummer Night's Dream. iit Because it was my reading primer. You'll have tot hys talthe fit scene of Midsummer Night «Drea and Sef thing youve ever had to speltout ‘OW: Johnston wrote that Iwas, In fact 1 believe achieved liter ‘Bernstein, who gilded the lily pretty thickly. 1 don’ think { was tek ening thik a ater bchvard PB: Were you really abad student in school? (OW: All three years of it. Tatacked the textbooks rather than mastered them. Hed student evolutions-—comic ones PB: You acted in and directed some school plays. Did you have a particular love of makeup even then? OW: Yes, lused to when I was younger, and it was impossible for me to play any pat that didnt look lke a juvenile kiler. Getting tlder, I dincover I don't have to paint those lines under ana is nce PB: But Kane isa masterpiece of makeup. OW: There you go again—you had that whole chain of thought planned. God, you erfty. »-. Kane had to be. Look stall these tas. PB: Well, movies that have somebody age in them are usually guite bad OW: Yes, but you have no ides what work there was to that, Because it was long ago; we didn't have sophisticated things for makeup which made it easy. In those days—you don't know what itwas—I came to work many days on Kane at two-thiry in the Moming, to be made up to start work at nine. It took that long, with the spraying and building Maurie Seiderman was one of the {0 or three great makeup men of ur ime, end he's never realy allowed todo anything inthe industry FB: Because he's too good? OW: Yeah. How he worked! Two-thinty fn the momning was not ‘mal ll the time. With the contact lenses I wore, which in those {ive drove you mad with pain. Because Iwasa baby; you know, its very hard to be seventy years old and make it believable. But the thing tha’s never been printed i the truth about me at 3 yosne man in that fim, I was then twenty-five, twenty si gotten how old I was-—but I had any ace lied up with fa Hid Nore corsets forthe seenes as a young man, Why? Were you heavier than yo looked? OW: OF course. Not only heavier, but Iabuays hid that teribleFee asa faked wy ; wnt stg, ei noe a wet Begin tet dy ugh So Aeading man young mah 2512s a5 an od man sea ate amet ad the fh sin and eer tay ce Norman Malet wrote something or othe aes gas young, nas the most beautiful man anybody hg 2a Yor Made por Citar Kae! And ony fore day Fi: You mean you nverloled Hk that PB, You met” Xs hat On the other hand, Everett lone xg aged wth me, nev or inakeup at i Ne jut nel he wit at jgewite around it Ande couldn't have bees bead and ne. Rt had 2 profound effect on him Because thought “How can [representa seventy-fve-yearold man wi eee eap? I mos be that my nose i oo big” And he beg Sdbtng "He must have had twenty operations before hee FRnnelf He must have tought," Teould ever bob my nse ght then bea leading man.” PB. But that’s incre OW Teneo PB. He was brilliant in Kane ; OW: Yes. Much better than in The Lady from Shanghai. He'é already begun to go to pieces. And he became a very bad actorin the last ten years of his life. But in Kane he was wonderful, PB: Yes, that scene with the reporter [William Alland]— OW: That was all Mank, by the way—it's my favorite scene. ie ‘PB: So ee a ee bese tee back in 18%, pI ‘crossing over to Jersey on .. There was pulling abd. gil waiting to get off. A white rest she es th. Tonlysaw erforasecond «but Il bet a mont ‘gone by since, that I haven't thought of that gil. OW: Itgoes longs than that. PB. Yes but who wrote cnneo ‘OW: Mankiewicz, andi’ the best thing inthe movie," "or hasn't gone by that [haven't thought ofthat git.” Tb a I wish it was me, aie Great sene OW: iF were in heland they gave mea day off ands Dat of any movie yu eer made do you want to see” 148 Keene of Mank’s about Bernstein, All the rest eter, bt that was jt ight UAYMAS 1: You wanted all the ators in Kane to be new faces, didn your (OW: That's true—but I was ticked [laupl. My whole vist faring only new faces was ruined by the frst day of shot Pfich wa, 95 sad, the fist of several days when we pretendel Prtesting but were actualy shooting the pict, The scene wy the nightelub with Susan when she's grown old For the ence ‘Pahat nightclub, casting sent me a tubby lite round-aced alan iGino Corrado) who the waiter in evry movie ever made! And {oulnt possibly send him away on the basis that he was tog wellknown a face becase I was claiming to be testing. So thee feis~spoling the whole master plan in one ofthe fst shot tat Trnade! PB And you could't even rationalize it a an hommage to Hol Ipwood, since Tinow that's not the sor of thing you do ‘OW: I don't believe in hommage. Of cours, nobody knew about {tin thse days, thank Christin our innocence-~and Tam er by against al forms of hammage Pb; fm beginning to agree with you ‘OW: You don't have to say that. PB: No, Tam. What was the big advantage of having actors inex rienced in movies? ‘OW: They didn’t have terible movie habits PB. Was Dorothy Comingore really discovery of Chaplin's? OW: Yes, buthe didn't use her en PB: And you liked her— OW: Ace testing a lot of srippen. 1 tested about ten, none of ‘hom were any good, [tested alot of people fr that pat PB: You wanted that kindof cheapnes? OW: Yeah PB; Had she ever acted before? OW: I don't think so. And she was such a suces init. Every ‘aid she was so wonderful that she turned down ever afer she got fr three years. And then there were no more offer, and Uhat was the end of it. She was waiting for another part Ik that PB: Was she an intelligent actress? Yes. OF course, her old-age sCenes were tremendously up, We blew dangerous drugs in her eyes and sprayed her $0 she couldn't talk, and everthing else. But she was sill Beat. “Well, what do you know-t’s morning already.” That's ‘other favorite moment throatais 15 ORSON WELLES ¢ oo eterno ma Watson ey tet Pe anes iy began i UF EAE, YOU KNOW. She Hayy ‘PB I didn't know that Perhaps she was influenced by Con, Ge No, Tao iM iy, Wal he it hve the humo ores ot Fray, bt there’ seat big silanity BB Dal she sing her own things? No. OW Nato et asinge vb could mae it sound bud FON dght That was bg work—very well done bythe gi Wotied along time on hat. Penne ddyou find Fortnio Bonanova, who played her singing teacher ‘Sw saw him as the eading man with Katharine Cornell in Tie Gin et when L was about eight years old. 1 never forgo in Tic ood tome like leading man in a dity movie. Sent fr in theminutel wrote that past. He was a great romantic leading When he was prompting her inthe opera, he was soma Gal be sony low PB Had be ever done picture before? (OW. Yes, think so—he was living in Hollywood. Bat rote | in wu ow He was ater one of the exerts : PB: Why did you use that shrieking cockatoo? OW; Wate em up < PB: Lien sine ‘OW: Yeah, Getting late in the evening, you know—* ‘eghen up anybody who might be nodding of lave) PR: Ithas no other purpose? ott OW. Thestical sock effect, if you want to be eran ete youcan sits placed at acetan musical moment WDE og ‘el for something tort and exclamatory. So # DY pat, epose,bt no mong, What facinating ‘howe oe ‘cause of some accident inthe trick department, you hough the i's eye nto the scenery behind ‘always thought that was intentional GUAYMAS 73 COW: We dont know why it happened. Some accident... Tm OF ond of para HE There's one in Mr. Arkadin Pa Yeah [have 8 wonderful one at home in Spain. OM Tal ou do te sene jus ater the cockato, where Kane Freaks up Susan's room? seca eid with four cameras—broke up the whole st in OW Le "Tore my wrists and hands spat. was bleeding Hike 2 pig ope Twas done with that glass and everthing whet Ma Aland has been quoted san, “He came off ex Mat and said it yas theft time he'd ever fl the motion tl sting seen GWE Naw! sure that’s ne of those memories after the event Sore eave than accurate [came off with a bleding ee gats what Team off with—and I dont enjoy bleeding Tent one of those. Five hours of makeup, and then get on and Freak tallup. Very rough. But the st was wonderuly done by ary Ferguson, Marvelously dressed—made it very easy to play Nir Godt was 2 wonderful set. can see it now. He was ust Palit -I dink Ferguson ide ratelus ob. PB: Tage: What di Van Next Polls do, who's aso listed a, sree? ‘OW: That shows your youth. Inthe days ofthe big studios, nd Sheapten of department heads, every pte cared a ced for it direction which went not tothe man who really did the job, ‘Gt the head ofthe department. The man whe actualy di the work wat alays ltd a astant. "Thus Cede Gibbons was ap Dural the at director of every Met picture, bat he didn teven make ashetch, He and Van Polglase and the other at-department ‘hes were much too busy fr any actual cetive work. PB, Then you had no contact with Van Pogae a al? ‘OW: Just n budget meetings, costings —that was the regulation sti. Hel, the set deetr, Darel ive told me that thos ice Se nda eminent mine We ot th um he row Dy o someplace ie tat ook ion oot at ene fe da he Ahead eto yr re gi, Bebo youl Ges secs on Kot 17 1" and | almost always design sh 1 Ldoon everythin, igh hows OW: Lda on eee dank—L see this is going to got ies scl ould be devoted just to the “News onthe Margy tome othe tt of Kane. Apart from type die that coon ns tht itis these time a 1 a pais of Vintage Timestyle ever ea the mtgedwentences, he taut fat-filled portentous repr. te the standard lcs sch nev dnl showed 1 Lace Hewat one oe OF ai ae i viecn New York: He snd Garg Fe rch ger tthe est They the ra? Fa prey ad exons it very ch th Om WSs tem, Hesay i'r a peor she sw jae tnlbeba heme te Fhe Tats Mic Time equene indicate in Smile Knife a ‘OW: Yes, that's where the idea for it in Kane came from. ‘course, Tébeen years on The March of Time radio program. Eve day. It vasa marelos show to do, Great fun, because, hl = Ihur ater emching happened, we'd be acting it out with ad sound eects and actors. Iwas a super show— PB of thems you write some of them? : (OW: Never [only acted. I began a an occasional peor ‘because they had a regular stock company, and then 1 letin—one ofthe inner citle. And then I had the Bay ‘fry life—I dont know why i tiled me (it docs st Fn, ues esau thought Merch of {Beat thing tobe on. One day they did asa news, Time te pening of ny producton of the lack MéChSS ras siayed myself on it And that to me was the apotheeey, ya ‘acer—that I was on March of Time acting and 35 87 pat Tue never fl since that I've had itmade as much 3° sfernoen. vave I Ad i you we he Tine nouns, Wet OW: Oh, so. That was Wiliam Alland who imitated Mh GuaYMAS SSS itation, but he's pretty easy to imitate. [Doing it “This week, to all men~death came to Chaves Foster Kane" We do that every dayeive ays week! And, of course, there Wira lot of “it mus fo all men” every week, and I wed to play Ui utese people. I played Zaharolf—it was one of my st parts Sn the show. As a matter of fact, I got the idea forthe hidden. limere sequence in the Kane “news digest” fom a scene did Ga March of Time in which Zaharof, this great munitions-maker, he being moved around in his rose garden just talking about the ress, in the last days before he did It was a radio shew, but Tremeniber the ide of an ld tycoon being pushed around a rose de be There's a wonderful seal sound cut during Thatcher’ news Conference the News” digest longshot of Thatcher sting ‘the table with all eve people around, but when you cut toa ‘oseup of him ashe tars to ead his statement, the sound eus a fooment ll, the way itoften does in newsrel Tve always loved that touch ‘Ow: Yes. a slight mistake in the sound cuting. I'm gad you fied it You know how fas in those days—there wasn tape, 1 the sound wat on fm. You cant imagine what mining the Sound was in thse days—and what a contin effort i wast get {hati effect. PB: eit tre that that news conference was reminiscent ofa ral J.P. Morgan news conference? ‘OW No, but there war a famous J. P. Morgan news conference whete a midget was put on his lap. Iiut know vaguely abou it PB: Dil you fel the newec was necessary 20 the juazing of time was possible? OW va expt more sbut bi han ould be old inother ways PB: Were the shots forthe “News” digest made depending on hat makeup you were in? OW: Yes, end ofthe day o during te day. Thee was aig back Jot and a we were moving rom one Place to another, wed sey, “Well lets get onthe bak of the tat and make me with Teddy Roosevelt whoever tas. Iwasa kind of hal improvised Al the nevarect ta I wat tremendous fun dong And did 1 you the teacton that sequensé had in Baly when the lm opened? FB No. eo 4