An Interview with Robert Shaw: Reflections at Eighty

Author(s): Jeffrey Baxter and Robert Shaw

Source: The Choral Journal, Vol. 36, No. 9 (APRIL 1996), pp. 9-13
Published by: American Choral Directors Association
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/23550883
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 jlfV -■ ■

An Interview with ? jfH

Robert Shaw:

Reflections at Eighty

by Jeffrey Baxter

HP&L v\wL r
Robert Shaw

Robert Shaw's distinguished career began in New York City In 1979, Shaw was appointed by President Jimmy Carter to
in 1938, where he prepared choruses for such renowned con- the National Council on the Arts and he was a 1991 recipient of
ductors as Fred Waring, Arturo Toscanini, and Bruno Walter. the Kennedy Center Honors, the nations highest award given to
In 1949 he formed the Robert Shaw Chorale, which for two artists. Musical America, the international directory of the per
decades reigned as America's premier touring choir. Under the forming arts, named him Musician of the Year for 1992, and
auspices of the U.S. State Department, the Chorale performed during the same year he was awarded the National Medal of the
in thirty countries throughout Europe, the Soviet Union, the Arts in a White House ceremony. He was the 1993 recipient of
Middle East, and Latin America. During this period Shaw also the Conductors' Guild Theodore Thomas Award, in recognition
served as Music Director of the San Diego Symphony and then of his outstanding achievement in conducting and his contribu
as Associate Conductor of the Cleveland Orchestra, working tions to the education and training of young conductors,
closely with George Szell for eleven years. He served as Music A regular guest conductor of major orchestras in this country
Director of the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra from 1967 to and abroad, Shaw also is in demand as a teacher and lecturer at
1988, during which time the orchestra garnered widespread leading U.S. universities. He founded the Robert Shaw Institute
acclaim through national and international tours and award- to foster excellence in music-making, especially in the choral art.
winning recordings. The Institute's summer festivals have attracted admiring atten
Throughout his career Shaw has received abundant recog- tion from the international press and produced a number of
nition for his work. His honors include degrees and citations recordings from the Robert Shaw Festival Singers. Currently he
from forty U.S. colleges and universities, thirteen Grammy serves as Music Director Emeritus and Conductor Laureate of
Awards, England's Gramophone Award, a Gold Record for the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra and performs and records
the first RCA classical recording to sell more than a million with the Atlanta-based Robert Shaw Chamber Singers. The
copies, four ASCAP Awards for service to contemporary mu- following interview took place December 21, 1995, in Atlanta,
sic, the first Guggenheim Fellowship ever awarded to a con- Jeffrey Baxter: Mr. Shaw, you are widely regarded as one of
ductor, the Alice M. Ditson Award for service to contemporary the first conductors to elevate American choral singing to the
music, the George Peabody Medal for outstanding contribu- level one finds in great American orchestral playing. When you
tions to music in America, and the Gold Baton Award of the first arrived in New York in the 1930s, what kind of choral
American Symphony Orchestra League for distinguished ser- singing did you find?
vice to music and the arts. Robert Shaw: As regards the niceties and disciplines of into
nation, enunciation, and balance, it seemed to me that the
Jeffrey Baxter is Choral Assistant at the Atlanta Symphony colleges and universities of California were equal, if not superior,
Orchestra and Adjunct Professor of Music History at Georgia to the institutions of the East. Howard Swan for some years had
State University, Atlanta. been active in southern California and, with others, had raised
choral singing to a remarkable degree. I also found two vastly

APRIL 1996 PAGE 9

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different vocal traditions present (in the Harvard tradition and, from Marshall rhythmic precision and metric exactitude.
East and throughout the country): that of Bartholomew at Yale, the American folk- Exactly how did you develop the meth
F. Melius Christiansen, which was sub- song tradition—principally spirituals ar- ods that you use to instruct a chorus in
stantially without vibrato and concerned ranged by Bartholomew and others. In these techniques?
primarily with music for religious services; New York City, choruses performed the R.S.: The first basic assumption was
the other was the tradition of John Finley great classical European repertoire of cho- that if one wanted to "communicate,"
Williamson and the Westminster Choir, ral/orchestral works, but as far as the disci- one had to establish a "community" in
which was based on an operatic vocal style, plines of a cappella singing were concerned, the performing group. Others came from
There also were two principal literatures: the West Coast was as strong as the East. the understanding that music was
the Renaissance literature arranged for J.B.: Some of the notable characteris- uniquely a time-art distinct from the
male voices in the Archibald T. Davison- tics of your performances were, and are, space-arts of sculpture and painting.
Therefore, one of the principal disciplines
had to be the organization of the ele
ments of time. It also became obvious to
me as I began to work with professional
and nonprofessional choruses that almost
Al Holcomb, all the problems of enunciation were cured
Director
by an attention to metric precision, and
most intonation problems were vastly im
WEEKLONG SUMMER CHORAL WORKSHOPS proved by having people arrive at the same
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ters of articulation and accentuation de
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oped were simply practical devices used
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Explore the many facets of middle school music, including adjudication, and achieving a healthy, expressive ric utterance.
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for the first day Of choir. • The VoiceCare Network: is textual clarity, whether in unaccompa
Impact Course
nied or choral/orchestral performances.
• Folk Music in the Choral Setting: August 2-9
Finding, Evaluating, Performing, and Arranging Clinicians: Axel Tlieimer, Leon Thurman, In this regard, how much of an influence
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Clinician: Nina Gilbert
Waring?
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Clinicians: ]olin Feierabend, Jill Trinka, Ildikó
but already for some months, if not a few
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Herboly, and Al Holcomb years, John Finley Williamson had been
This course will address difficult issues associated with middle
... ..... , . Come experience an innovative approach for teaching talking about phonetic enunciation. I
school singers including inaccurate singers, changing voices, mus¡c ^ ,ore fo|k musi Jnd ; e V0ur6
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imagine, because of the Westminster
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j . • i•. . j r c • Centralized registration, housing and parking
conducting, literature, and performance practices for the a 3 r 3 the techniques that are absolutely neces
secondary choral professional. sary for singing in foreign languages.
» Choral Music Experience: For more information about these and People became conscious of how Ameri
Conducting Workshop for Teachers other Hartt Summerterm workshops and can speech was constructed, rather than
(Certification Levels I - III) special programs, contact: assuming it would take care of itself. There
July 15-19 HARTT SUMMERTERM
is no doubt that Waring's great popularity
Clinicians: Janet Galváti, Francisco Nítñez, David University of Hartford
Elliott, Kathy Armstrong 200 Bloomfield Avenue in the popular song literature was an im
Utilizing diverse and artistic literature, participants will explore West Hartford, CT 06117 petus to many choral organizations
choral artistry through the study of vocal technique, score Tel: 1-800-955-4278 or
around the country to strive for better
analysis, conducting, rehearsal methods, and philosophy. 860-768-5020
Fax: 860-768-4441 enunciation. There also is very little doubt
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The University of Hartford admits students of any race, age, color, I IM|\/FR^|TY gerated use of hummed consonants were
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the popular song and established a group

PAGE 10 CHORAL JOURNAL

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art intimacy in repertoire that was really should entail. The choral art's unique
more suitable for the solo singer. That is, Tij Jiijc J-JprfnYfj advantage, however, is that it allows par
the popular love-ballad is fundamentally J ' ticipants to begin at an extraordinarily
"inappropriate" for a group of men—ex- nnifln lltiinTYl Ï did high level of creativity. That is, one can
cept for the fraternity-sing literature. All begin with a Bach chorale or a Brahms
these elements of enunciation somehow StVUCtUVCtl CLYld motet and not have to go through some
made it more emotionally acceptable as fifteen to sixteen years of "finger exercises"
well as more understandable. sin si Jm+irsi J ctndis>e to 8a'n happiness and competence. The
T n . rp . i í p it HrLUsi yLlLUL <j 1/ Id/td/ o y • • • « i • c i
J.B.: Arturo Toscanini and George Szell J great choral repertoire tor some three to
are two names that loom large in your profoundly affected ^ Xears has been ^Ufly a<T
past and the past of American music his- r J J J J claimed as one of the flowers of man s
tory. What were their major influences yyiy dcVcloPTVlCYlt artistic and creative life, and to be able to
on your music-making? ^ -t * participate in the expression of those cre
R.S.: The influence of Toscanini was ative masterworks is a great and ennobling
the impression of his personal passion, experience for anyone. Certainly the art
and the influence of Szell was one of his musical level of any civilization is going to needs both professionals and amateurs:
precision—in particular, how meticu- be judged by a few thoroughly profes- amateurs need professionals to learn pro
lously he edited his performing materials, sional institutions in large cities more than fessional technical accomplishment, and
The elements of pride in Szell's orchestra it is liable to be judged by the artistic level professionals need to remember their early
stemmed from his personal desire to make of church choirs, school choruses, and vol- amateur commitment,
it the largest string quartet in the world, unteer recreational activities. There's no J.B.: Do you find it a positive sign of
Consequently, he marked all his music so doubt in my mind that the amateur moti- artistic growth and music education in
meticulously that had everyone been able vation of music ("amateur" derives this country that many of the works ar
to play all the nuances of dynamics, ar- linguistically from the Latin "amo, ranged by you and Alice Parker for the
ticulation, and accentuation at the first amare," to love) is extraordinarily pre- professional Robert Shaw Chorale are now
rehearsal, the rehearsal would have sur- cious, even to professionals. One of the standard repertoire for many high school
passed most rehearsed performances. He sadnesses of a professional career in music and college choruses?
used to say to his orchestra that they be- is that it puts great strains on one's "ama- R.S.: Certainly Alice Parker's arrange
ra:» to rehearse where other orchestras teur" commitment. In a symphony ments have both skill and taste, fit the
finished rehearsal. He also was a man not orchestra, for instance, one is always play- human voice, and, in certain ways, edify
without passion. The overriding impres- ing at someone else's behest, if not the human intelligence. I find it even
sion of Toscanini was one of extraordi- dictation. One therefore lacks the freedom more satisfying, however, that high
nary emotional commitment to the of self-expression that great art always school and college choruses are singing
product and an arching, overall vision
where he found the passion to get where

Música Mundi
he was going, which was the last note of
the piece. On the other hand, Szell found
his happiness and satisfaction in the con ■■■■■""
■■■■i ^ J>
J)
— Concert
Concert
ToursTours
struction of the piece and in each mea
"The Artistic Alternative"
sure of every movement. A third person
who also influenced me greatly was Julius
Herford, with whom I did structural and
analytical studies. I think of the three,
Experience Counts!
Herford's influence most profoundly af
fected my development. Concert Touring Specialists on 5 CONTINENTS
J.B.: You created your fine choral/
with custom tours arranged in over 40 COUNTRIES
orchestral discography with the Atlanta
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ber Chorus—two volunteer ensembles. Experience the Tradition!
What has been your guiding principle in Tuscany International Children's Chorus Festival
maintaining their "amateur" status?
R.S.: It has been a guiding fact of life July 8 - 13,1996, Doreen Rao, Conductor/Clinician
rather than a guiding principle, in that July 14 - 20,1997, Jean Ashworth
Ashworth Bartle,
Bartle, Conductor/Clinician
Conductor/Clinician
there simply is not enough money to sup
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the other hand, it is not a given that the

APRIL 1996 PAGE 11

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Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms, Poulenc's been better equipped technically, I might experimentation can go on with young
Mass in G, and Schubert's masses. I find have been able to do more, for instance, minds interacting with a collection of fine
this to be an even more significant sign of to save religious music in our time from teachers—of composition, for instance—
artistic growth. the floods of mediocrity that have in- it seems to me that such universities can
J.B.: Throughout your career you have vaded it, and perhaps I could have found become these "primary institutions." Ohio
been known as a champion of modern something even in the contemporary en- State University, for example, has sixty
music, through innovative programming tertainment fields (for instance, the vital- five-thousand students in one locale—
and commissioning new works. How im- ity and rhythmic vigor of jazz—the which is the size of all but several score
portant is it for the future of choral music intellectual virtuosity of it) to displace the American cities. Therefore, such young,
in America to encourage creativity on the commercial elements that have so sadly devoted, intellectually active talent should
part of composers? Is there an audience vitiated our musical worship. create another leg to that institution of
any more for new ideas, or, for that mat- J.B.: Judging from your tenure as Mu- influence. I also think that there are a few
ter, much of an audience at all for intel- sic Director of the Atlanta Symphony Or- religious institutions, a few churches—a
lectually and spiritually challenging art? chestra for twenty-one years and as very few churches—that have not been
R.S.: There never is enough of an au- Conductor Laureate and Music Director mongrelized, churches that are interested
dience for anyone who is concerned about Emeritus for eight years, do you see the in creative visual, dramatic, and musical
the creative life and future of mankind. symphony orchestra and its associated cho- arts, and that these three institutions to
Personally, I feel that I've not done nearly ruses as the primary institution represent- gether could form an influence, given so
enough to stimulate commission and sup- ing American musical culture in the cietal support, since they are the product
port of the new and experimental, possi- twenty-first century? as well as the formers and influencers of
bly because I began so late in life to learn R.S.: I think that it certainly would be society. These institutions can't do it all
those techniques that would have given one of the institutions of influence. Equal simply by dragging along society. They
me a very quick overview of the past ac- to it, though, and perhaps surpassing it in have to represent a hunger and a desire
complishments and then a quick way of time is the "multi-versity." When a major among the citizenry for that to happen,
studying the daily flood of contemporary university can support two or three stu- J.B.: The word "culture" is used to
music that arrives at my address. If I had dent symphony orchestras, and where day with all kinds of meanings, from

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PAGE 12 CHORAL JOURNAL

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"cultural elite" to "multicultural diver- At the same time, a citizenry concerned conserve that which is noblest in human
sity." You have said upon occasion that about its intellectual, artistic, cultural, and history. Also, insofar as there is a Creative
culture is something that cannot be im- spiritual life will find ways to increase its Principle (which some people may iden
ported. What do you mean by this? support of that life. There's no assurance tify as God), and if man is created in that
R.S.: In the years when I was touring that art and music will escape the bureau- particular image, then man has the re
this country and others, I had the feeling cratic problems that we experience in sponsibility of being the Creative Prin
that, although concerts were successful, we other affairs. I'm not so sure that great ciple. The perpetuation of those values
were in a community for a matter of hours, works of human art can be subscribed by that have ennobled man and made him a
rather than a matter of days, weeks, or a government edict. The great works of contributing benevolence to his universe
years. Each community and each institu- art will appear or not appear, depending and to his human environment is a part
tion has to be responsible for its own on whether there are great people to write of his moral responsibility,
growth and cultural life. Another way of them and a sufficient audience to receive J.B.: I've always admired your turn on
saying it would be that simply because a them. Democracy will create its own spon- the phrase "the Word made flesh," that
person has enough money to buy a ticket sorships—and it's just that it should—but the inverse could be true,
to a concert, he or she is entitled to under- a great citizenry will see to it that the arts R.S.: I believe that very strongly: that
stand it. You have to bring more to it than become an important part of human life. painting becomes spirit, becomes Creative
the price of the ticket. Any relationship J.B.: You've often referred to the Cre- Principle, becomes abstract goodness,
with Beethoven or Stravinsky implies a ative Arts as the Conservative Arts. Is this
commitment of more than money. One what you mean? -ci
cannot buy this culture, one must earn it. R.S.: Yes. That s obviously a play upon
J.B.: Aside from your many conduct- language, but what I mean is that the arts
ing engagements, what other plans do
you have for the future?
R.S.: I want to write two books. One
is a technical and practical book about The perfect solution for a perfect performance!
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hearsal techniques, and choral disciplines.
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I also want to continue as long as I can
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J.B.: Speaking as a working artist— jazz styles, articulations, balance and blend of jazz sonorities, and interpreta
and former member of the National Jk tion of jazz choral works for all ages. Class involvement activities will

Council on the Arts—what role do you

think government should play in arts Ik. include vocal jazz ensemble warm-ups, simple improvisational techniques,
and interpretation of literature provided by various publishers.

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APRIL 1996 PAGE 13

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