2.

2 Interview with Kyle Nel

So, Kyle could you please explain your, what's your position currently? >> Yes,
right now, I am head of Lowe's Innovation Labs. So, what that is is always the
second question, let me beat you to the punch on that one. Basically what,
what I do is I try to find and or make with some of the smartest people in the
world the next big thing. So, the next big thing could be anything, could be a
product that you sell in our stores. It's most likely, it's going to be something
around big data, neuroscience, like this kind of far out there not really main
stream quite yet stuff. >> Mm-hm. >> And so, I have a series of labs where we
actually bring people together to make things happen, and try stuff out really
fast. See what works, and what doesn't, and which ways they work and don't
work. And that kind of fail fast mentality. >> Mm-hm. >> And so, it's been really,
really great, and we're doing some really exciting things. >> Mm-hm. So, what,
what's your experience with neuro-marketing, just in general? I mean, Lowe's
is one place, but you have been in different places as well. >> Mm-hm. >> What
was your experience there? So my first, beyond the classroom setting, my first
real hands on experience with this was at Walmart. So I used to work for
Walmart in the insights function there. And we did quite a bit, or we were
exposed to quite a bit. We either, we had weeded it as Walmart, or we have
vendors to it. So companies that sold stuff at Walmart. And, I was really
excited, you know? There was a lot of a lot of promises that were made by
these vendors of neuro, the neuroscience, the neuromarketing. And when I got
the results back, it was murky at best, I would say. There wasn't a lot there.
You know? Things that you really had to pull apart to try to find what they
would call insights, I felt like weren't really solid. And so, for me as somebody
who my job was to say like, that's the thing you should build your business on
or move your strategy to. I just didn't feel comfortable with it, and I felt it was a
lot of over promising and under delivering by the top some of the top
neuromarketing companies. >> Huh. >> And, for me and talking to other people
too, they had very similar experiences where there was this huge excitement.
And then, the delivery was nowhere near what was promised. So, there's a
sour taste in the collective mouths of marketing researchers everywhere.
Because of that initial wave of, of poorly done, quite frankly, neuromarketing.
>> Hm. >> That was my first experience. >> Okay. You also, you're a member of
different boards, especially in the US. >> Mm-hm. >> Can you name just a few
of them, and what kind of the collective experiences with neuromarketing and
the talks going on in the US about this? >> Yeah, so quite a, a number of
boards. So, the AMA the American Marketing Association. I'm on the marketing
insights council. And so, we got the American Marketing Association and all
things marketing research and marketing res, neuromarketing in general was
kind of an unknown thing. It was kind of on the fringes. I see it coming more
into the mainstream. So much so, that I actually invited someone who is a
neuro marketer. Not a scientist, but a neuro marketer on to the board. And I see
that as just another example of how neuro-marketing, applied neuroscience, is
really becoming more mainstream and less fringey, if that's a word. >> Hm. >>
And you see that in a number of the other boards that are in other
organizations that have been associated with and it's still kind of this thing off
to the side. And I feel that a lot of traditional marketing researchers are
sceptical of it as they should be, but sceptical almost to a fault. So, every
methodology has a prob, has major flaws with it, major flaws. But, what we
forget is we are became okay with those flaws and that became the orthodoxy.
There are flaws with neuromarketing as it stands right now. It's not perfect, but
there's not, it's not perfect. Online survey research is not perfect, but no one
seems to question that. So, where, where do I get richer insights from? We can
go into that a little bit later. I would say neuroscience has a far better promise
than survey research does. So. >> Right. >> Anyway, so it's, it's becoming
more mainstream. As kind of that first wave is kind of died down, and people
are starting to kind revisit it. I see, especially on the client side, from other
large client side organizations. I've seen huge, huge demand. A lot of, a lot of
emails, a lot of phone calls like "hey, I hear you're doing stuff with this. Tell me
about your experience." . . . Right. >> So, when it comes to the pros and cons,
you kind of alluded to this a couple times. But, the pros and the cons. So, one
thing was what happened initially, but the, the status quo right, right now, what
would you say it is, at least these days? >> Yeah, see, I think in general people
will look at it as a kind of a just shiny object. You know, something, something
always in that fun that you did that on top of research that you did already. I
think that's going to change and that is changing. I, I, I mean, I always talk
about the flipping the pyramid. So right now it's like I would say 95% asking,
and 5% obser observing. And that's just silly, right? >> Mm. >> We maybe 10,
15, 20 years ago, that's what, all we could do to get, gather information about
what our the people we're trying to serve are doing, is to ask them questions.
Now, we have a whole wealth of data, moch of, most of it is free. I mean, you
could spend you could have an entire person that all they did was just mine
Google data and Google search trends, and use Google Correlate, and did all
kinds of stuff for free. That data's free, the work to get it done is not, but, but
that kind of stuff I just don't see mined, it's ridiculous. And then, you have
other ways of gathering more primary data, like through neuroscience, which
are so much richer than anything you can get from asking somebody. You
know, when, the neuro stuff that I've done in the second wave with you
inparticulars is, you know, theres a survey component too, but that's just kind
of tacked on to, oh yeah by the way. We, we have this, so much data that we
don't even know what to do with it. Rather than, oh, I they said that they liked it,
and that's the best we got from this other stuff so. >> Yeah. >> There are pros
and cons, but I definitely see the pros far outweigh any possible cons. >> Mm-
hm. Every day to day basis, this is kind of a, as you say kind of special spice to
the market research, or are you applying it more in your lab or, for example, on
an everyday basis? >> Yeah, it's funny. I see, people on the, that aren't
researchers, that aren't market researchers. They are more excited about the
neuro stuff than the market researchers are. >> Mm. >> And, I don't really know
what that is. I, I, I think that the business people are like, they just want
understanding that leads to action that changes behavior. That's all they care
about. They don't care where that understanding comes from. They don't care
if it comes from a survey. They don't care if it comes from mining data. Like big
data stuff. They don't care if it comes from neuroscience. All they want is that
nugget of insight that's going to lead to an insight, it's going to lead to them to
make or take an action, which changes the behavior, whatever that behavior is.
>> Hm. >> And so, for them it's very clean. [SOUND] They're not stuck in this,
oh, well it's not, you know, what's the sample size. Like all of these weird,
prisons that we build ourselves in the orthodoxy, they're not in that at all. >>
Hm. >> And so, they're really quick to adopt it, and we talked to market
researchers and even marketers, they're more afraid. and, and I get it. They
have a lot, I think they, they feel they have a lot to lose. But, I would say that
they have uh,much more to gain than they have to lose. And we can get into
that later but the, the dynamic of how people are gaining inside has shifted. It's
not, you don't have to go to a market researcher to understand people
anymore. >> Hm. >> I mean, you can just, like I said before, you can go online.
You can mine data that's free and available already, so that base level's already
there for the picking. This next layer, a huge layer of understanding that comes
from neuro marketing, you have to go through somebody who's trained. You
can't just go off and do it on your own. >> Mm. >> so, I think that's a huge
opportunity for market researchers that, they just don't have not yet fully taken
advantage of, or haven't seen that as their role. >> So, how, what, what would
the obstacles be then, I mean, for kind of delivering that? For, for
neuromarketers in general to kind of convince market researchers to use
neuromarketing more. What would the challenges be, what would the obstacles
be? >> I mean this might sound, once again, maybe a little heretical. But, I think
you just go over the obstacle, right? If the obstacle is, if someone has an
irrational, and I'll just say it, it's an irrational hold on an old methodology. I
mean, if you go back to the old papers, where people were just, just ripping to
shreds the idea of doing a survey online. How dare you do a survey online,
right? >> Hm. >> And now, that's okay. But, that took a long time, right? And
this, neuromarketing, is not applying survey research in another format. This is
something completely different. I don't even know how long it's going to take
for market researchers to get that, right? >> Mmm. >> But, what you see is, why
don't you just go directly to the business people? And, that's, that's how I've
had success in my career is by, you know, working with, working with people
inside of my market research world. But, finding the value and the people that
are actually going to use this stuff. When they see the val, when they get the
insight and it leads to a change, that makes their, their job better or provides
them success, whatever that is. That's huge. >> It's all you have to do. >> Mm.
>> And then, they're sold. I want that, I want again, and I want more and I want
more. Hm. >> And they don't really care that it came from neuroscience, like I
said, or from something else. >> Right. >> So, that's really where I, if you really,
you know, for me, if I really wanted to try something and I really believed in it
and I had resistance through the usual channels. Then sometimes, you do have
to make a case, straight to the business or straight to somebody else that you
think would actually use it. >> Mm-hm. >> It's the end user, right? >> Yeah, yep.
>> Yeah, part of the kind of [INAUDIBLE] as I see it could be also the expertise
level that you really need to have- >> Yeah. >> Top-level experts to be able to
do that. Do you see any change in that? Do you think, think that that will
change or do you still need to have a, and your experts to be there and in
control? >> Yeah. Oh, for sure. I think there's so much, and there is still, a lot of
snake oil salesmen out there that over promise. They're still doing that same
old song and dance, a lot of over promising, and very low on the deliverables.
And, it's just, it's ruining, and it's setting back the entire industry, I think, of
neuro marketing, and it's application and it's trust, right? but, on the other
hand you have a bunch of client side people that have not had, either they have
not had a good experience, or they don't even know to ask for it. >> Right. >>
And so, so, that's not even in their toolkit. Right? so, until those kind of two
match up, where you have, researchers that are asking for it and there are
organizations or vendors, or suppliers that can actually, you know, meet their
needs. >> Mm. >> Until those two things line up, and they'll happen little bit by
little bit. It just won't work, it won't be a, it won't be a real tool. >> Mmm. >> In
the way that, you know, ethnography was kind of, you know, ethnography in
the market and research sense, was, you know, very out in the fringe for a
while. And now, it's I would say, even more mainstream than a focus group
now. >> Mmm. >> At least for large companies. >> Mmm. >> And, that took
time. >> Mmm. >> But now, once again, it just became this thing. So, I see
neuroscience coming that way as well. >> Right. >> But, you need, I think you
really need to have people that have worked in really good neuroscience
companies, and then come over onto the client side, and back and forth. Once
that starts to happen, that's when it'll really take shape I think. >> Mm. >> But,
it's still too young. >> So, one of the kind of the drawbacks with
neuromarketing has been the kind of its, expensive equipment heavy analyses.
But now, we see a kind of emerging new technologies and they're becoming
even cheaper. Do you see any kind of change in your marketing? the, how
immersive it can be? How ,you know, that, what will the future of your market,
marketing can be? >> Yeah. So, even, there's been a huge leap in the last three
years and that's when you and I started really talking about that same time.
From just being with these neuromarketing in a sitdown advertising testing
kind of way, which was still great. But, it was artificial, right? So, if you want to
test anything beyond a commercial, it was weird, right? >> Mm-hmm. >> You
couldn't really, truly do the kind of mobile, in-context research, in the, I=in the
way you wanted to, until very recently. So now, that you can really put this gear
on somebody, and send them through one of my stores, or one of our stores,
you can understand so much more than you ever possibly could. And, that's
something that you can't do in any other method, that I'm aware of. And, that
leads all this talk about behavioral economics and all this stuff, I mean, you
can't do behavioral economics unless you have a good way of identifying
which variables you want to change. That's going to change behavior, and
what better way to do that than something that is a passive understander,
what's going on inside someone's head that they don't even know about.
Right? so, great. I got, I just can't, I can't, I can't think of a better solution than
than that. >> So, what the, kind of, traditional way of asking for an in store, you
know, test, for example. How would a traditional market research method be,
and what would the limitations of that be? >> So, like an in-store, you know,
signage test? >> If you, yeah, a signage test inside a store, for example. >> So,
the way, once again it goes back to asking, right? So, there's only two things,
they would've, they would've either done no direct consumer testing. They
would've just done some change in the store and kind of watch the results.
And, there's so much missing between here and then the sales, right? There's
so much that happens in between there. >> Right. >> And that's usually how a
test goes. That's not a marketing research test, that's just retail, right? It's like,
let's just put that out there and see what happens. >> Right. >> And there's
something to that, right? But the real way that research, marketing research
would do is they would do like a shop along, where you would, you know,
you'd go with your respondent and walk through the store and hm, that's
interesting. I notice he picked that red box up. You tell me about that? And,
they're like, oh well my mom use to wear red. You know, its, the most
ridiculous conversations that happen. And, there are some, there's a lot of
truth in there, but it's hard to parse out what's real, you know, and what's not
real. And, when I say real I mean real that's going to lead to some sort of
business action that's going to mean something or real that's not. I mean,
everyone's going to say that they're, they are going to eat healthy this next
year. Few people do. Right? Few people actually change their behavior. I'm in
the business of changing behavior. And I think every business is. And so,
that's the stuff we want. And, if I can't get it from asking you, I've gotta find
another way to do it. So, the typical way to do it was, then the other thing
would be, you would just like have somebody waiting. It's called an intercept.
And, someone would either on the way in or way out at the point of purchase
or whatever that was, they would say, sir. Could I ask you a couple questions
about your, you know, hairspray purchase behavior? >> Mm. >> And, they're
the most bizarre questions to ask somebody when they're just doing it, mostly
an impulse purchase or something else. Can we parse that out a bit. >> Yeah,
yeah. >> So, so how exactly would that look? I mean, you stop people, you, you
ask them questions on, at the point of purchase for some. How would that look
in general? >> Yeah, so, so there would be literally somebody with a clipboard
or an iPad, if it was really fancy, which is basically just an electronic clipboard.
And, they would stand there and there would be a series of survey questions
that they would ask somebody. And, usually, to keep the sample correct they
would ask every third or fifth person that came by. And, it's just, once again
you're still, you still have the same huge problem of I expect, I'm expecting that
the questions that it came with, up with are the right questions, first of all. And
then, if even that's true, I'm expecting that you understand why you just did the
thing you did. And, that not only do you understand it, but that you can
articulate that to me. And then, if that works that that the answers that you
gave me I can do something with. There's so much missing there. And, you
know, I can show you a thousand ways. How there are too many bricks in that
road to really, really say that's the only way to go. >> Hm. >> And I, that's still
the, the heretical way to, to talk about it. But, there's too many problems with it
to continue to say that's the only thing we should pursue. >> So, you say it's
heretical, but still that's kind of the dominant- >> Yeah. >> Push to things. How
can that be? No one is going to get fired for doing a survey. >> Okay. >> Let's
be honest, right? No, so one is going to get in trouble for doing the thing that's
considered the right way to do it. Right? But, the problem is is that the right
way isn't always going to get you the stuff that you really want, or the stuff that
your organization really wants. And so, I don't think anyone's doing anything
wrong. I think everyone is doing, I think, by and large, 99.9 of researchers are
extremely smart, innovative people, but they're working within a framework
that doesn't allow for a lot of freedom. And, the problem is, is that this thing
used to work pretty well. But, everyone's doing this thing now, and it's so
hyper competitive that you have to do something different in order to be
different. Right. >> Hm. >> And so, it's just this constant thing but what this is
showing is hyper-competitiveness is showing the major, major flaws in the old
ways of trying to understand why people do stuff. >> Hm. >> And, and it's just
it, there are a lot of flaws. >> Right. So, just sidestepping a bit, when it comes
to talking about your lab, can you talk a bit about, kind of, how, how are you
setting up the lab collaboration? And, I'd like to know more about who you're
collaborating with, and, you know, what's the idea? >> Yeah. >> Can you talk
about that? >> I would love to, but I can't. >> Okay. >> because it is, it is
proprietary. And I mean, what it comes down to is, it's, we're not just
innovating on stuff, we're innovating on process, and we're innovating on the
way that we approach problems. I wish I could talk about it more, but there's so
many ways. It's not just about, I want a product that does this or I want a
software package that does x. That's part of it, but there's stuff that has to
happen from an organizational, and even a thought structure way, to get there.
>> Mm. >> And the thing that we found is that as you adjust this stuff up front,
which may seem sort of inconsequential, it actually has huge positive
ramifications for the innovation that just happens internally. As a result of, you
know, thinking differently and being different, and approaching problems
differently. It's not always perfect, I mean there's a lot of things I would never
do twice, but that's why we're constantly trying and learning and iterating and
moving forward. >> Right. So, when it comes to marketing in general, you
know, marketing is very foreseen as kind of a kind of an, an add on. And, not
so important very often part of business as far as, you know, some people
said. And other people said this is the place where we really need a lot of
innovation. So, we see different places like GreenBook for example, the IieX.
For example, how do you think about innovation in marketing in general?
Because this is exactly what you do. What is the need for innovation, but also,
where do you turn to? Like Green Book, for example to look for innovation, and
how do you do it? >> Well, there's a lot of things going on in marketing and in
business in general. So, I think marketing, like this ole, even, even that, those
terms like, marketing is here and business is here or the engineers are here. I
think those things are changing more where you really can't separate this
department and that department anymore even inside of large companies.
When you go back to the survey thing. Everyone's running on surveys with
Survey Monkey now. Right, that used to be the only thing that most market
research organizations internally would do. They would be like the survey
crew. Right, I mean that's not all they would do, but that's what they'd primarily
be known for. But now, it's democratized and everyone can do it. Right. So,
that's one huge part that's now for everyone to do very easily. And so, you also
have other parts of that that are happening. So, there's all these different ways
to find innovative solutions that are going on, like, you know, there's the
kickstarter stuff and all of those kind of things. And, everything is just
becoming so mixed up. It's hard to know where one starts and where one ends.
And I, so, to, to your question, it's not really about what's marketing doing. It's
about what cool thing is happening, and then, how can I learn from that and
adapt for it. Either, you know, partner with them, or learn from it, or, you know,
I like that but, I'd rather, I'd like to have this as well. >> Mm. >> and, and making
that happen. So, there's a lot of different ways to, to, to learn about those kind
of things. Whether it's conferences like IEX, or others. but, or trade
organizations, or just trolling around on the internet. There's a lot of great stuff
going on right now. >> Coming to the final question. When it comes to the
organizations such as the NMBSA, the Neuromarketing Business and Society,
Science Association, what do you see the role for, for the organizations like
that to be here? >> So, so, kind of two, well at least two fold. One is those
organizations for men, from that side especially from the more academic side
of things. They should be the guardians of what's right and wrong. If someone
does something really stupid and that's just plain wrong, they should call them
out on it. And that's, that's the role I think, of the, of those kind of publications
and it's a very important role. But, two, and I don't know if this is that particular
group's mission, but I really think there needs to be a a more of a laymen's
publication of what's going on in neuro marketing. because it is a complicated
thing. It's not easy. It's far more complicated than serve area research, it far
more complicated than most qualitative research. There's a lot going on there.
And so, to be able to break it down in a way that your average marketing
researcher will be able to digest it and to be able to feel like they understood it.
I think it would, it would bump up the, the credibility of the whole field and then
that would also have like a corollary to, to the usage as well. >> Hm. >> But,
yes, I see that those two roles is really important. Not just sitting and, you
know, having papers that only academics would read, which is very important,
I'm not trying to downgrade that, it's very important, it's critical. But then, also
being able to make sure that those, those things, are not just staying in
academia, they're leaving, and being used in real practice. because then that's
how real change is going to happen. >> Mm. >> Right? >> 'Kay. That's all I got.