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Mobius: We haven’t added many new Local interest rates are high, but it is a very to pull it off. He is letting the central bank
ones. We are now in Croatia, Slovakia and good sign that the governments are deter- be very autonomous in the inflation targets
other Eastern European countries. We were mined that the inflation rate doesn’t go which has been quite unpopular. This is
in Zimbabwe for awhile, but we got out of much above 6% in those countries. something we didn’t expect from a left
there in time. In Latin America, we invest Libera: Didn’t you say the interest rate wing government. I think that creates a lot
in Venezuela and Columbia in a very small spreads were the narrowest they have ever of good will for his administration.
way, but we just don’t see the attraction been so there may be only one way to go? What we have seen in the last two years
there. Mobius: Ha, ha! That is the “64 dollar” is propelled by external accounts adjust-
The risks, rewards and real opportuni- question. Where do we go from here? ments and amazing growth in exports-trade
ties lie in countries like Brazil and Mexico, Remember there was a time when price/ to $30 billion. Now we are seeing a start in
South Africa, Turkey, Taiwan, Korea and, earnings ratios and other valuation meas- expansion in credit consumption of 25% of
to some extent, India which has run-up a ures in the emerging markets were higher total loans as a percent of GDP.
lot. That is mostly where we are. than elsewhere. These quickly developed SL: What do you know about Petrobras
SL: Jim Libera, who also specializes in into bubbles, ending in crashes. That is and their success in offshore drilling to
the emerging markets, is on the line and what we have to watch. make Brazil become self sufficient in oil?
has a few questions for you: Today, we were sitting with some Stenzil: Their growth is one of the
Libera: We have had two great years in bankers here in Sao Paulo and found that highest in the world now. The company
emerging markets. Our figures show a 51% interest rates impact the Brazil economy a plans to expand this year about 14% in
rise in 2003 and another 22% in 2004. This great deal. their production capacity. Most of the
has coincided with low U.S. interest rates. SL: Yes, they still have a 16% interest reserves, which are offshore, are producing
As these rates rise, do you think we can rate in Brazil. Do you think they will lower more, but the replacement of their reserves
have another good year in 2005? these rates soon or raise them higher? is quite high, last year above 140%.
Mobius: There is no question higher Mobius: They will raise them higher to SL: The government was subsidizing
interest rates are a danger because there lick the inflation. We think later in the year the price. Has that helped the Brazilian
will certainly be a slowdown in growth if they will come back down. Inflation is now people?
rates in emerging markets follow the U.S. 7.50%, and the real rate is 9.25%. [On Stenzil: What happens is half of the
rates. That will be anticipated by the February 17, Brazil raised its interest rates product is directly related to international
markets, which will correct. However, we to 16.75%.] oil prices. The other 50% is somewhat sub-
found that the U.S. Treasury rates are not a SL: Have you been visiting Brazilian jective. In the first year of Lula’s govern-
very reliable indicator of where the equity companies while you are in Sao Paulo? ment, all the prices were above
markets are going because of the 4% Mobius: Yes, we keep quite busy. international oil prices. In 2004, it fell
spread between U.S. Treasuries and emerg- Today we met with Prudesco Bank, and below these prices. The company says it
ing markets sovereign debt. yesterday we were with Embraer, the air- doesn’t intend to have a full pass through
What you really have to look at is sov- plane company. I have been asked to give a of international volatility in oil prices to
ereign debt and interest rates. If the U.S. speech tonight on corporate governance the customers in Brazil. Right now, there is
continues raising rates and the sovereign using a number of Brazilian cases. I don’t a zero gap in international prices.
rates don’t move, the spread will narrow know if I will have to escape out the back [“Today, Latin American governments
which will be a sign of high confidence in door when I finish, but this is an on-going are debating how to manage windfalls,
emerging markets. situation. Many governments don’t crack rather than struggling with crushing debt
[On February 17, the Federal Reserve down wherever we go, so you have to keep burdens. Should they cut taxes, pay down
Chairman said that despite six interest rate an eye on what you are doing. debt, bolster reserves or spend more on
rises since the summer of 2004, the Fed SL: What is the press saying about the infrastructure or education? For many
funds rates remained “fairly low”. Mr. performance of President Luiz Inacio da companies, the choices are now between
Greenspan also said that inflation expecta- Silva, popularly known as “Lula?” Has rebuilding balance sheets or pushing ahead
tions remained “well-anchored” in the there been much opposition in the country? expansion ....”
U.S.] Mobius: President Lula has been “... Changes in the region are coincid-
If you look at the macro-economic sit- getting a pretty good press. Listen to what ing with – and are affected by – momen-
uation in high debt countries like Brazil, Gustavo Stenzil, our analyst here, has to tous shifts in the global economic system
Mexico, Turkey and Russia, there is a say. profoundly affecting financial markets ....”
much better environment now than in a Stenzil: Basically, it is amazing how “The main financial markets are likely
long time. [The debt of] these countries has far he has come from his old pro-market to crackle with energy in 2005, with Brazil
been upgraded a few times in the last two and pro-reform political views. In his first in the lead. Uncertainty will grow some-
months. In Brazil, they are building-up two years, many of his reforms were not what in Mexico with the approach of the
foreign reserves, and inflation is down. passed through Congress, and he was able elections in mid-2006, but the risk of cata-
strophic crisis is remote.” Source: well. Generally, earnings and dividends are economy. What do you think about this
LatinFinance, February 2005.] up so it is quite positive. The price-to-book possibility?
Mobius: The same story can be seen in ratio is a very good indicator as well, and it Mobius: There is very little chance that
Turkey which is eager to align itself with is much lower than in the U.S. markets. China will dramatically revalue their cur-
the European Union. [The Turks want to] This is one of the problems that we have in rency. Chances are they will allow more
find their way to meet the dictates of what face of the nice performance last year. You leeway in the float so there will be some
we call the “Master Criteria” which means expect valuations have gone up, but the small and gradual appreciation.
budget balancing and all the good things reality is they have gone down. Libera: In the last ten years, we have
that governments should do. Libera: One of the reasons I have seen seen a rise of democracy in Ukraine and
If there is an accident in some direction for evaluations not going down is that certainly in Central Europe. Do you view
in emerging markets and the interest rates earnings have gone to a cyclically high that as an important element in emerging
go up faster than U.S. rates, then that level, perhaps. If those earnings have a
market analysis, and will this rise con-
spread, of course, widens. We will have to reversion to the mean, couldn’t that bring
tinue?
watch it because that would have a direct the markets down?
Mobius: Yes, most definitely. That is a
impact on emerging markets equities. Mobius: That is absolutely right. There
very important point. If these countries
SL: What countries in the emerging is no question that if earnings are hit then
markets will be hurt most if interest rates you will see those evaluations move up. A align themselves with the U.S., they will
are raised? lot of that is commodities-related as many embrace a market economy. If this
Mobius: All countries will be impacted of the emerging markets companies are happens, you will need capital markets
by interest rate rises, but we must look at commodities companies (Brazil, Russia, which is quite bullish for what we do.
the real rate [in each country]. In addition, etc.) so if you see the prices of these com- There is still a long way to go. Even in
it is important to note that regarding spe- modities dropping, there could be a countries like India and China which have
cific companies, there will be a differential problem. vibrant stock markets, there is a long, long
impact. For example, banks would benefit According to our calculations, the way to go in terms of privatization of state-
from interest rate rises in the short term price-to-earnings ratio [in emerging owned enterprises. That will provide a
provided there is not substantial impact on markets] is roughly 10 or 11 times versus steady flow of very large capitalization
economic growth. 16 times in the US. companies to these markets.
SL: What has happened to the interest Libera: It seems that the Bull Market Libera: One of the regions we have
rate spread since the U.S. interest rates in commodities depends on demand from liked over the last few years has been
have been rising? Have you been able to the Chinese economy. Do you see this Central Europe and the play on the entry
track it? economy continuing to grow 8% or 9% a into the European Union. It seems like
Mobius: I haven’t seen it today; a few year indefinitely, or do you see a potential some of those markets, such as Poland,
days ago it had narrowed to below 4%. crisis in their financial system? Hungary and the Czech Republic, have
Libera: Mark, regarding emerging Mobius: It is difficult to think that gotten expensive now, and maybe the new
market evaluations, I have seen anywhere China will slow down appreciably. I think place to play is the potential new members
from 9 times projected 2005 earnings to 19 9% is outstanding growth, considering that of the European Union such as Romania,
times adjusted earnings. These are, there- the base is getting larger. It is hard to Bulgaria, Croatia and possibly the Ukraine
fore, significant differences whether we imagine that they can continue at that very or Turkey. You have alluded to some of
view the markets as cheap or expensive. high pace. Nevertheless, the Chinese are
these countries as places you have moved
How do you evaluate the emerging markets determined to continue at a high growth
into recently.
after two strong years? rate to make-up for what they have been
Do you see the attempt to join the
Mobius: We look at the differential. missing for so many years. There is a lot of
European Union as a strong play?
You are right in saying that services track catching-up to do. The Chinese continue to
these valuations in different ways. One attract tremendous amounts of foreign Mobius: Yes, definitely. Romania,
service may use a different criteria than the investment. In fact, they take by far the Bulgaria and even Ukraine are definitely
other. So, I would look at the relative rather bulk of foreign investment of any country facing Europe and want to move in that
than the absolute number. If you look at in the world. That aligned with the local direction. Romania has a big population
those numbers, you will see that, by and investment will continue this high growth (22.4 M), a potentially large domestic
large, earnings multiples are about half of rate in my view. market with plenty of room for reform.
the developed markets. You can expect a deceleration, but This convergence between East and West
I think that is a pretty good indication China will still have a very healthy growth Europe plays a very big role in what
of where we are in the valuation area and rate. happens to investments and capital
will be the case for sometime now as the SL: We hear that China could revalue markets. They are areas we want to keep an
earnings in these markets are doing very their currency even though it will hurt their eye on.
Libera: Are you concerned about the Libera: It seems also that the recent Libera: Mark, what I have tried to do
recent tendencies for the Russian govern- events in the Ukraine could be a sign of over the years is to compare the economies
ment to intervene in the economy? what might occur in the next five years. of countries with their stock markets. I
Mobius: Yes, all are concerned, not There is word that if all the former satel- have found that there are some positive
only portfolio investors like us, but all lites are on the bandwagon, they might correlations, but it is not very strong in any
foreign investors are concerned with the have to join as well. period of time. Have you or any of your
Russian moves. This is true in the Yukos Mobius: That process has already analysts done any work in that area?
case where they used the tax authorities to started. The Russians are clearly moving in Mobius: We have looked at that, but
squeeze and basically bankrupt the the direction of Europe. They are already the differences are so large it is very diffi-
company. That is of great concern to increasing their supply of 40% of Europe’s cult to use it as a good indicator even a year
foreign investors. Recently, however, we gas but, at the same time, they are quite out. We have found this is fine as back-
have noticed that the government has made proud. If they tie-up with Europe, they ground, but you have to delve into it
moves in the opposite direction. For want to be one of the leaders. That may not [further]. Real interest rates and spreads
example, ConocoPhillips [a U.S. oil go well with the French. They have good also play a big role. In addition, we look
company] was allowed to buy 7.6% of relations with the Germans as Putin was into things like the misery index: inflation
Lukoil that the government held. once based in Germany and speaks plus money supply and unemployment.
On the one hand, the Russians have German. Those indicators help us a lot.
been cracking down on selected oli- Libera: Mark, would you say you have SL: Which are the best countries in
garchies [government by the few]. On the a favorite region in the world right now for your comparisons and which are not?
other, they have been encouraging direct 2005? Mobius: It depends on which indicator
investment flows into government-owned Mobius: Right now, I would say North you use. I would say countries with high
stakes of these companies. It is mixed Asia, Korea and Taiwan, because of the inflation rates are quite sensitive indicators
picture. pricing of the securities. Both countries
in the markets. As value investors, we try
My suspicion is that in the Kremlin have depressed markets because Taiwan
to look at what the companies are doing
there are a number of factions moving in has the Chinese pressure to become part of
individually. That helps us.
different directions. You may have noticed China and, in Korea, the domestic situation
Libera: Mark, do you see corporate
the statement by one of Putin’s closest is poor because they are not happy with the
governance in the emerging markets
advisors that he had made a mistake in current President so they have not been
becoming steadily better over the years,
Yukos and in the Ukraine, showing that participating much in the market. But that
and, if so, has that helped your invest-
there are people there who are able and is beginning to change.
ments?
willing to speak-up. SL: Mark, we are surprised you say
Mobius: Yes, it has become steadily
So, there is hope, but we have to keep a this as we have found that the South Korea
very close eye on it. On the other hand, you markets are close to a high for the year. better. There is now a greater awareness
have seen rating upgrades by the agencies Have I misread this? about corporate governance and greater
for Russia. Mobius: In U.S. dollar terms, the all- sensitivity, which has been good. However,
[ConocoPhillips said recently that its time high for the KOSPI index was 1.487 we are constantly faced with one scandal
purchase of a stake in Russia’s Lukoil had in March of 1989, and the market is now after another, such as the recent one in
lifted its key replacement ratio for oil and 0.98, a difference of 64%. Therefore, it still Singapore with Chinese Aviation Oil.
gas reserves to an industry-leading 200% has a long way to go. Things like this keep coming back.
last year. Only a handful of companies SL: What about Hong Kong? That story could probably be repeated
have so far reported reserve replacement Mobius: Chinese stocks in Hong Kong in many other countries. Turkey is a good
ratios of 100% or more, adding as much oil are not expensive, so all of North Asia is example, where governments are moving
and gas as they produced in the year-ED.] quite attractive now. towards a more market-oriented environ-
SL: Mark, have you expanded your SL: Do you invest in Japan? ment. That is quite positive for investment.
exposure to Russia or pulled back? Mobius: Yes, we have a Japan mutual Libera: Do you envision Turkey
Mobius: We haven’t moved. The fund and are happy with the changes taking joining the European Union? There is a lot
Russian market went up a great deal as you place there. of opposition in Europe, and this is a very
know. There are exceptions like Lukoil, They are beginning to move out after a sensitive issue in Turkey.
which is an outstanding company, and I long period of uncertainty which is typical Mobius: I think that if they continue to
think is a tremendous investment bargain. I as they tend to make decisions very slowly, move towards the fiscal criteria, there is no
was on the Board of Directors of Lukoil but, once it is made, they move. There are doubt you will get closer relations.
until this month and found that they are also signs of real reform taking place. That Remember, Turkey is a major exporter to
doing a very good job in trying to become is good news, and we are seeing the stocks the European Union, but it will take years
more modern and global. perform. [for them to join].
SL: Mark, you have recently been in more knowledgeable about what is hap- Mobius: There is no question that we
South Africa where your emerging markets pening. are looking very closely and are very con-
funds have major holdings. What’s going SL: Are you still on as many corporate cerned about interest rates because high
on there? boards as you were a year ago? interest rates are not good for economies
Mobius: For a long time, we predicted Mobius: No, I resigned from the Board unless inflation is going through the roof.
that the currency will get stronger, and that of Lukoil, and that was my last one More importantly for us is the confi-
is what has happened. That is not good for because our lawyers warned us about the dence that investors have in these markets.
their mining sector because of the costs on tremendous liabilities they face. Also, to do This is directly measured by the interest
the Rand and their sale of U.S. dollars. a good job on a board you really have to rate spreads I told you about. If that spread
There is optimism in the country, and gov- spend time on it. It was a very good expe- widens, we will have to run for cover and
ernment policies are beginning to work. rience and was very useful learning what a be very careful where we are – a defensive
The consumer area and the stock director can do. I think I contributed some- policy is good for companies that will do
markets are also continuing to do well. You thing to what I thought as an investor. well under any conditions.
are seeing more minorities in the private Libera: Don’t you think the P/E ratios SL: Keep up the good work for your
shareholders, Mark. And thank you, Jim,
sector, as 80% of the population [are deserve to be higher in high growth coun-
coming] into the market economy, a big tries than in low growth countries? for joining us.
For more information on Franklin/
change. South Africa is also one of the best Mobius: Exactly, if you have high
Templeton funds, call 1-800-342-5236 or
ways to invest in Africa because these growth you can justify a high P/E. But, as
visit www.franklintempleton.com.
capital markets are moving north. value investors, we like the idea of buying
Dr. Mobius manages three closed-end
SL: Regarding Southeast Asia, are things cheaper. There are legal and politi-
funds: Templeton Emerging Markets Fund
those countries going to recover from the cal risks as time goes by. There are reforms
(EMF-NYSE), Templeton Dragon Fund
Tsunami disaster? and as [the countries] embed these reforms (TDF-NYSE) and Templeton Russia
Mobius: The Tsunami only had a big you can have high growth and very stable Fund(TRF-NYSE). Closed-End Fund
affect on Sri Lanka, which has a large economies. Advisors holds positions in TDF and EMF,
tourist component. Thailand and Indonesia That is precisely what is happening in including the accounts of George Cole
were not really hit. The human suffering Eastern Europe as they merge into the Scott and his family.
was terrible, but all the aid will have a pos- European Union. Then your political We have not been buying the
itive impact on the region in the long run. concern goes out the window, and you Templeton Emerging Markets Fund this
SL: You have spoken to us before have a much more stable environment. year because it has been selling at a
about corporate transparency in the emerg- Stocks seem cheap until people realize that premium to its net asset value (5.2% on
ing markets. Have such things as better they shouldn’t be that cheap. February 18, 2004). Dr. Mobius also
accounting and reporting made progress? SL: Would you wrap-up your conclud- manages the mutual fund, Templeton
Mobius: Yes, generally speaking. We ing comments on how the emerging Developing Markets Trust, which we have
are getting much better responses from markets are now versus a year ago with the been able to purchase at net asset value for
people we talk to, and they are often much impact of interest rates rising and so on. managed accounts.