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over the years you John as a composer

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and Merce you as a choreographer have

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worked independently how did your

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collaboration begin it was in the middle

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40s and John had come to New York I was

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already there and we decided to give a

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program together and for which I would

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make the dances and John would write the

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music and John had already talked about

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the idea of having music which was not

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dependent upon the dance nor the dance

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dependent upon the music but which were

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separate identities which could in a

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sense coexist and we worked at that time

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within something which he called a
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rhythmic structure that is they were

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that we thought the common denominator

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between the two arts was time and he had

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devised a form called rhythmic which he

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called rhythmic structure actually

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within which we worked which where we

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agreed upon certain structure points but

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within those structure points the the

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time within the structure points we were

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free to do as the dance went and as the

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music might go and that was the

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more or less the first time that we

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began to work together and then we've

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continued and now the the structure

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points in the way have disappeared or

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it's a little bit like instead of going

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from Minneapolis to st. Paul you go from

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Minneapolis to the moon and and there's

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a different thing about time it's less

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like an object more like the weather

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because in in an object you can tell

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where the boundaries are but in the

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weather is it's impossible to say when

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something begins our ends we hope that

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the weather will continue and we trusted

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our a way of relating dance and music

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gloss will continue it's a not starting

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from an idea not starting even from an

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expression of the same feeling nor an

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exposition of the same idea but rather

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simply being together in the same place

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at the same time and leaving leading

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space around each art so that the

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neither art has to glue itself to a

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particular there are exceptions of

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course in mercis a solo tango which was

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performed here

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yesterday there are two points in the

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dance that we try to have the sound

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specifically related to when he throws

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the towel down on the floor immediately

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the loops which have been playing in my

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vocalizing stop and the television

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begins and then went a half a minute
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later when he comes to the front of the

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stage and and points down the television

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stops and my drinking a cup of of water

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with the throat microphone on starts so

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that that dance is not so much like the

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weather is it is the dance that has

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three parts or at least the music has

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three parts

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you maybe you have more parts in the end

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all the dances - unless we purchase

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engine general though you basically the

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only communication that you have with

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each other in in doing the sound and

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enjoying the dance is just a time frame

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you just say it's going to be this
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that was the practice at anciently in

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India instead of having to arts dance

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and music they had an art called

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Sangeeta which was dance and music

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together and they had a rhythmic

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structure which was called Tala

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but they improvised in that in the talus

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in the West we've never had a except

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perhaps in the Middle Ages an idea about

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theory of rhythm so that it that left it

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possible for us in this century to start

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thinking about time and they

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more more recently in 1950 when we went

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the use of magnetic tape from Merck for

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musical purposes became generally usable

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we began to see a close relation not

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only between movement and music but

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between space and time who normally

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provides the initiation for a dance and

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music piece do you nurse do you say that

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okay this piece is going to be 10

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minutes long and then John goes off and

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composes something and you do your dance

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we don't even we don't even state that

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state the time length are you don't know

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if with often with the composer he will

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ask the how long the dance is and then

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if I know I'll tell him but if I'm

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working on it I have perhaps an

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approximate idea of the time but nothing

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specific and so that even that can be

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left free in other words if he wants to

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know exactly of course I will tell him

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but I'll tell him whatever he wants to

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know but I'm trying not to put anything

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in his way because at the point where

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you're deciding that you are going to do

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a dance you don't exactly know what it's

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going to be anyway and also some of the

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dances that I make are so choreographed

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that they could in a sense go on and on

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and I simply have to choose a point when

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I'm going to say well this is the end of

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this dance torse
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for example is in its entirety 55

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minutes long and

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the dancers have only done it once in an

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event and that that was enough I

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wouldn't ask them to do it again that

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was very difficult and we ordinarily do

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it in three parts the first part on one

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performance the second part and so on

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the third part the third section there

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is in my program and the the writers

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said that

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tars was fifty five minuets do you work

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under the same kind of the same kind of

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system in that you're pretty much

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composing but you're not really
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composing to a length and then when the

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time comes where it has to be well but

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now when the curtain comes down we stop

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the music is that that's really how

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that's how it happens really in the

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theater because no one no one once the

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curtain comes down no one wants to hear

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any more music

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they've already they've already begun

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applauding I think the the people are

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far more involved with their eyes than

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there are and they are really with their

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ears but the interesting thing about the

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ears is that you can hear things that

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are behind you

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mercè do you ever find that when you are

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handed a piece of music that is to go

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with the dance that you've choreographed

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that it's ever a surprise and perhaps

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that's an unpleasant surprise the way

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the music sounds in conjunction with the

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dance

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there was a time once with with the

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piece where we had asked of a painter to

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work with us and he had made some

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interesting what I thought going to be

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interesting objects for us to use in a

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sense there were sketches they weren't

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really sketches but they were kind of

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ideas he showed me and some things sort

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of made up half made up and so on I

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liked them very much and and we were

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going ahead with this but when it came

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to the actual performance he had changed

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his mind and made things which were much

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bigger much more cumbersome and almost

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impossible to get on and off the stage

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not just because of their size but

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because that the actual stage space was

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such that there weren't any the wings

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were difficult to get them in and out of

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and that was a real problem it was it

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like a physical problem which we

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couldn't simply couldn't surmount and we
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event

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I came in here no no it was Neil Jenny

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it was a piece called objects and we did

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it

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not very often it's because it simply

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wasn't feasible to do if we put the

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objects on the stages that we were

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playing it at the time then the dancers

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couldn't have gotten on the step it

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should roll and then we couldn't get the

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objects off because there wasn't enough

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room in the wings about it did that guys

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just disappear that of course we could

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get we had to we simply couldn't deal

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with it
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you just didn't perform the dance at all

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what we did yes we did it once or twice

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probably but it simply wasn't possible

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to to physically possible to deal with

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it so that sort of speak abandon it does

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it ever surprise you how the dance and

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the music work together well yes I think

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probably since I don't and now with our

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pieces I don't hear the music before the

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public does it the first performance and

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I'll do the dancers as far as that's

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concerned so that there is a certain

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element of surprise it comes into this

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and I'm also mostly I hear it in the

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wings if I'm not in the dance myself I'm

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watching from the wings and if it is

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because it is a new piece I am usually

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so concentrated on the dancing to see

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that the dancers get along all right

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because they themselves are nervous

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about the fact that it's a dance they

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haven't performed so that I don't hear a

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lot of the music the first time

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the dancers I think here more than I do

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if I'm in the piece I'm likely to hear

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more but in the wings I'm so busy

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looking and it's harder to hear a

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backstage anyway I think in general but

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we as I've been surprised and I've also

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been delighted simple haha so I I think

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I think on the whole on the whole the

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whole experiences toward the good side

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how about you Jen do you feel similarly

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about about your life I think it's it's

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lively and useful now in the society to

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be able to place one's attention not in

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just one way but in two ways at least

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like as with different music different

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dance coming together are and then if we

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can go further than that and place our

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attention in three different directions

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I think that would be

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even more interesting and if we

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accomplish three we should go on to four
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to five and so forth so that we

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move charge move tarde a kind of complex

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use of our faculties that will suit us

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for everyday life which nowadays is

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coming TARDIS from all sides have

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audiences been at all affected by this

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well Merce was talking with someone from

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the theater at the University with the

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other evening and he he said that he

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felt that audiences that formerly had

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difficulty with our work because of the

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independence of the music in the dance

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in our theater were now beginning to be

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able to enjoy it

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and that's to say times change now that
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we're more or less on our last legs

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the audience is beginning to sit up

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ninja

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maybe it'll continue for a little while

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hope so I noticed that when Merce became

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40 that the I think even critics in

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London objected to his continuing to

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dance because they thought the dancers

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should be younger but now that he's even

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older no one seems to object any longer

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to the fact that that he dance they

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don't voice they I think they're

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becoming interested in seeing how long

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this whole thing but you talked about

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the thing about the audience the other

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last week we gave her what we labeled an

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informal performance in st. cloud on a

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rather in a sense of difficult stage for

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dancing because it was a recital hall

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stage and it was hard and so on and the

272
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,929
musicians were at the back and the

273
00:15:14,188 --> 00:15:18,719
dancers we were in the front and John

274
00:15:15,929 --> 00:15:21,588
made the sounds by moving around the

275
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:24,569
side he slammed doors and we have music

276
00:15:21,589 --> 00:15:26,819
doing electronic things and it was I was

277
00:15:24,568 --> 00:15:29,549
doing what you call acoustics audience

278
00:15:26,818 --> 00:15:32,099
but it was and and sometimes I was on

279
00:15:29,549 --> 00:15:34,490
the side and when I wasn't performing I

280
00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:37,500
was listening and looking at this and

281
00:15:34,490 --> 00:15:41,039
thought it was quite a fascinating event

282
00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:44,159
did ours that Flandreau the loudest ours

283
00:15:41,039 --> 00:15:46,078
I've ever heard but the whole thing of

284
00:15:44,159 --> 00:15:47,698
the sound and the kind of sounding meat

285
00:15:46,078 --> 00:15:49,500
and the fact that everything was visible

286
00:15:47,698 --> 00:15:50,789
John was visible and the other musicians

287
00:15:49,500 --> 00:15:52,889
in the back and the dancers and there

288
00:15:50,789 --> 00:15:54,958
were no wings we would just go and stand

289
00:15:52,889 --> 00:15:58,528
on the side so the whole thing became

290
00:15:54,958 --> 00:15:59,758
the theatre so to speak and the and when

291
00:15:58,528 --> 00:16:02,250
the audience came in

292
00:15:59,759 --> 00:16:05,278
everyone is warming up we yes but more

293
00:16:02,250 --> 00:16:08,490
than that these are students mainly a

294
00:16:05,278 --> 00:16:09,429
student audience and sometimes when it's

295
00:16:08,490 --> 00:16:12,190
strange
296
00:16:09,429 --> 00:16:14,500
as this might well be to them they are

297
00:16:12,190 --> 00:16:17,890
likely to get up and depart and so on

298
00:16:14,500 --> 00:16:23,470
and it was to go an hour like the lunch

299
00:16:17,889 --> 00:16:24,970
hours roughly like 1:15 5050 and they

300
00:16:23,470 --> 00:16:26,830
were very attentive it was a fair-sized

301
00:16:24,970 --> 00:16:30,370
audience they were very tended to listen

302
00:16:26,830 --> 00:16:32,080
and about 45 minutes after we started a

303
00:16:30,370 --> 00:16:34,419
number left but they all left at the

304
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:36,850
same time so I figured they must have

305
00:16:34,419 --> 00:16:38,289
class so I thought oh yes that's all

306
00:16:36,850 --> 00:16:40,509
right there and the rest of the people

307
00:16:38,289 --> 00:16:43,360
stayed and at the end of it they had

308
00:16:40,509 --> 00:16:47,259
been absolutely silent except for this

309
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:49,389
time when the people left the whole

310
00:16:47,259 --> 00:16:50,919
thing had been very very quiet and not
311
00:16:49,389 --> 00:16:52,750
they weren't Restless or anything like

312
00:16:50,919 --> 00:16:54,789
this they were and it was clear to me

313
00:16:52,750 --> 00:16:56,470
that they were we could see the public

314
00:16:54,789 --> 00:17:00,929
very easily because of the lighting the

315
00:16:56,470 --> 00:17:04,390
lighting was so minimal that they were

316
00:17:00,929 --> 00:17:05,980
absorbed by what was going on they

317
00:17:04,390 --> 00:17:08,110
whatever kind of judgments they were

318
00:17:05,980 --> 00:17:10,029
making that doesn't matter but while

319
00:17:08,109 --> 00:17:11,558
they were there they were totally

320
00:17:10,029 --> 00:17:15,099
absorbed and at the end of it there was

321
00:17:11,558 --> 00:17:16,899
this very generous kind of applause to

322
00:17:15,099 --> 00:17:20,318
something that they had been involved

323
00:17:16,900 --> 00:17:22,720
with and and it's one that what this has

324
00:17:20,318 --> 00:17:24,970
happened several times but this is this

325
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:27,699
time was very noticeable to me because

326
00:17:24,970 --> 00:17:29,350
of the particular quality of the sound

327
00:17:27,699 --> 00:17:31,600
the fact that the musicians were all

328
00:17:29,349 --> 00:17:33,730
visible that we were all doing this in a

329
00:17:31,599 --> 00:17:35,949
very flat sense when you have the

330
00:17:33,730 --> 00:17:40,380
independence of the music in the dance

331
00:17:35,950 --> 00:17:44,740
that that we have then the observer

332
00:17:40,380 --> 00:17:48,780
becomes the third point in a in a

333
00:17:44,740 --> 00:17:52,630
triangle and that's what Marcel Duchamp

334
00:17:48,779 --> 00:17:54,940
spoke of he completes the work and each

335
00:17:52,630 --> 00:17:56,680
one each triangle is a different

336
00:17:54,940 --> 00:17:59,049
triangle

337
00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:01,060
getting back to a point that you were

338
00:17:59,049 --> 00:18:04,629
talking about before you both still

339
00:18:01,059 --> 00:18:08,009
perform is this something that you find

340
00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:11,980
is very important to your creative acts

341
00:18:08,009 --> 00:18:13,900
in being able to after choreographing or

342
00:18:11,980 --> 00:18:18,039
after composing that you actually do

343
00:18:13,900 --> 00:18:19,000
perform Merce you wanna well I I started

344
00:18:18,039 --> 00:18:22,470
out that way

345
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:25,240
that's a performer I just continued and

346
00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:27,940
Heath Canal is committed to performing

347
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:30,430
uh I don't perform as much as I used to

348
00:18:27,940 --> 00:18:33,850
so that I suppose it's changing like

349
00:18:30,430 --> 00:18:36,519
anything does but it is part of my life

350
00:18:33,849 --> 00:18:40,719
I mean I think that's probably true one

351
00:18:36,519 --> 00:18:43,839
way or another and John I could get

352
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,640
along without performing but I still

353
00:18:43,839 --> 00:18:50,949
have to do a little exercise he's know

354
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:55,290
in order to keep my back in shape both
355
00:18:50,950 --> 00:18:59,019
of you have used chance as the basis for

356
00:18:55,289 --> 00:19:02,680
either composing music or choreographing

357
00:18:59,019 --> 00:19:05,529
dance how did you both come to the idea

358
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:10,769
of using this technique in order to

359
00:19:05,529 --> 00:19:10,769
create works of art well I

360
00:19:10,869 --> 00:19:18,509
I had studied for two years with Suzuki

361
00:19:14,470 --> 00:19:22,299
the philosophy of Zen Buddhism and I

362
00:19:18,509 --> 00:19:26,910
wanted to find a way to free my work

363
00:19:22,299 --> 00:19:26,909
from my likes and dislikes and

364
00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:38,500
if if you are not involved with music

365
00:19:36,019 --> 00:19:41,179
but are involved just with Zen Buddhism

366
00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:42,440
that and you still and you want to free

367
00:19:41,179 --> 00:19:45,410
yourself from your likes and dislikes

368
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:48,169
you sits cross-legged you know and go

369
00:19:45,410 --> 00:19:49,790
through various breathing exercises if
370
00:19:48,169 --> 00:19:53,059
you don't do them properly you get hit

371
00:19:49,789 --> 00:19:57,829
over the head well I wasn't going to do

372
00:19:53,058 --> 00:20:01,579
that but I wanted to to adopt a

373
00:19:57,829 --> 00:20:03,798
discipline that would work in the field

374
00:20:01,579 --> 00:20:09,168
of music that would be just as strict as

375
00:20:03,798 --> 00:20:13,750
sitting cross-legged and so I chose

376
00:20:09,169 --> 00:20:18,559
first to work with the magic square and

377
00:20:13,750 --> 00:20:25,519
then later I came across the the eqing

378
00:20:18,558 --> 00:20:28,369
and that a means of of working with the

379
00:20:25,519 --> 00:20:32,418
tossing of three kinds six times to get

380
00:20:28,369 --> 00:20:35,989
to numbers between 1 and 64 and struck

381
00:20:32,419 --> 00:20:37,549
me suddenly as as being better than the

382
00:20:35,990 --> 00:20:40,640
magic square that is say more generally

383
00:20:37,548 --> 00:20:46,250
useful I think it's true because I began

384
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:49,160
early in the 50s and I haven't found any

385
00:20:46,250 --> 00:20:53,179
reason to shift to some other way of

386
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:57,380
working though I include other means I

387
00:20:53,179 --> 00:20:59,929
keep using those chants operations

388
00:20:57,380 --> 00:21:01,940
recently received I was running out of

389
00:20:59,929 --> 00:21:04,130
print out because now I no longer toss

390
00:21:01,940 --> 00:21:09,080
the coins I get a computer printout of

391
00:21:04,130 --> 00:21:13,519
the he cake and I recently received a

392
00:21:09,079 --> 00:21:22,579
million new numbers from Bell Telephone

393
00:21:13,519 --> 00:21:25,700
laboratories people some people think

394
00:21:22,579 --> 00:21:33,189
I'm the slave of these chain chance

395
00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:36,940
operations but I am grateful to them and

396
00:21:33,190 --> 00:21:41,798
think of the music as they as a utility

397
00:21:36,940 --> 00:21:47,630
or something like like fresh air or

398
00:21:41,798 --> 00:21:50,629
clear water Merce

399
00:21:47,630 --> 00:21:57,350
well I use the chance operations to I

400
00:21:50,630 --> 00:21:59,539
use the eqing in certain pieces tours

401
00:21:57,349 --> 00:22:03,740
for example it's totally devised through

402
00:21:59,538 --> 00:22:07,849
using the numbers from the king I have

403
00:22:03,740 --> 00:22:10,250
to add certain things which could be

404
00:22:07,849 --> 00:22:14,329
which still can be found out through the

405
00:22:10,250 --> 00:22:16,099
e King but I use other other kinds of

406
00:22:14,329 --> 00:22:17,750
chance things like tossing coins and so

407
00:22:16,099 --> 00:22:19,369
on to decide whether it's how many

408
00:22:17,750 --> 00:22:21,079
people are going to do a certain phrase

409
00:22:19,369 --> 00:22:24,609
or whether it will be male or female or

410
00:22:21,079 --> 00:22:31,038
so on those kinds of things but but and

411
00:22:24,609 --> 00:22:33,199
in one the use of the use of chance is

412
00:22:31,038 --> 00:22:36,109
slightly different from piece to piece

413
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:38,000
depending on the how many people are in
414
00:22:36,109 --> 00:22:40,609
the peace the kind of peace it might be

415
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:43,250
the how how much time I have to do a

416
00:22:40,609 --> 00:22:46,369
piece for example I'm making one now

417
00:22:43,250 --> 00:22:49,640
working on one with seven of the dancers

418
00:22:46,369 --> 00:22:53,359
and I have a very short time to do to

419
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:54,950
work at it so that in using the chance

420
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:59,959
operations I have to use around the

421
00:22:54,950 --> 00:23:02,058
broad use of it rather than rather than

422
00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:03,710
as detailed as I might do ordinarily

423
00:23:02,058 --> 00:23:09,609
because I don't have that much time

424
00:23:03,710 --> 00:23:13,279
before we are to present the piece but I

425
00:23:09,609 --> 00:23:17,449
have found in almost every piece I've

426
00:23:13,279 --> 00:23:19,579
done for years now that the if I really

427
00:23:17,450 --> 00:23:23,720
use the chance operation and follow it

428
00:23:19,579 --> 00:23:26,569
through that it always brings out
429
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:28,569
something that I don't think I would

430
00:23:26,569 --> 00:23:31,428
have thought of otherwise by myself and

431
00:23:28,569 --> 00:23:33,609
opens out some new kind of facet a new

432
00:23:31,429 --> 00:23:37,070
kind of possibility I sometimes can't

433
00:23:33,609 --> 00:23:38,418
utilize it completely that is that's

434
00:23:37,069 --> 00:23:41,779
simply because I don't have time enough

435
00:23:38,419 --> 00:23:43,790
with the dancers to to

436
00:23:41,779 --> 00:23:46,940
bring it about perhaps as completely as

437
00:23:43,789 --> 00:23:50,450
I would like to but but I try always to

438
00:23:46,940 --> 00:23:52,880
start from some general chance operation

439
00:23:50,450 --> 00:23:57,140
and then detail it as much as I have

440
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:59,870
time for it before you even use the

441
00:23:57,140 --> 00:24:02,920
chance operation do you put some

442
00:23:59,869 --> 00:24:07,429
structure of parameters around it say a

443
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:09,920
time limit or a space in which you want

444
00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:12,200
the dance to occur there are also

445
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,820
practical decisions of always that have

446
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:17,390
to be made is that and simply have do

447
00:24:13,819 --> 00:24:19,279
with human beings and that like if

448
00:24:17,390 --> 00:24:20,570
you're suddenly on the floor and then at

449
00:24:19,279 --> 00:24:21,680
the next moment you're supposed to be

450
00:24:20,569 --> 00:24:22,539
high and there you have to do something

451
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,470
in between

452
00:24:22,539 --> 00:24:25,909
technologically you see we could be

453
00:24:24,470 --> 00:24:27,559
there as I explained to one of the

454
00:24:25,910 --> 00:24:30,200
students this morning she asked this

455
00:24:27,559 --> 00:24:32,359
question I said well with technology you

456
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:36,259
could be at one moment there and the

457
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:38,779
next moment up but without that just by

458
00:24:36,259 --> 00:24:40,849
yourself you have to somehow get up into

459
00:24:38,779 --> 00:24:44,180
that but I take that as part of the

460
00:24:40,849 --> 00:24:46,419
human act as part of the humanist of it

461
00:24:44,180 --> 00:24:48,860
if I could put it that way

462
00:24:46,420 --> 00:24:51,110
John do you ever make some decisions

463
00:24:48,859 --> 00:24:54,829
even before you start using the chance

464
00:24:51,109 --> 00:24:56,459
operations what I what I try to do is to

465
00:24:54,829 --> 00:24:59,609
understand the

466
00:24:56,460 --> 00:25:03,799
the field of possibilities in which the

467
00:24:59,609 --> 00:25:03,799
composition is going to take place and

468
00:25:05,329 --> 00:25:13,099
then I ask questions which

469
00:25:13,670 --> 00:25:21,450
hopefully our radical questions that get

470
00:25:17,700 --> 00:25:25,410
at the get at the roots rather than the

471
00:25:21,450 --> 00:25:34,319
surfaces of what is what will eventually

472
00:25:25,410 --> 00:25:35,759
happen and then then I then the answers
473
00:25:34,319 --> 00:25:38,259
come through through the chance

474
00:25:35,759 --> 00:25:40,329
operations

475
00:25:38,259 --> 00:25:42,160
I can rather quickly tell whether my

476
00:25:40,329 --> 00:25:50,740
questions have been radical or

477
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:56,170
superficial because the the what what

478
00:25:50,740 --> 00:25:59,319
happens then will be either like a door

479
00:25:56,170 --> 00:26:01,900
opening or like no door opening and if

480
00:25:59,319 --> 00:26:05,740
no door opens then this situation is is

481
00:26:01,900 --> 00:26:08,470
superficial both of you use a lot of

482
00:26:05,740 --> 00:26:10,809
analogies with nature do you see a

483
00:26:08,470 --> 00:26:15,390
strong relationship between nature and

484
00:26:10,809 --> 00:26:15,389
the way you work together oh yes I

485
00:26:15,509 --> 00:26:22,109
always like that and those two

486
00:26:19,839 --> 00:26:25,389
paragraphs in the Lanka Vitara sutra

487
00:26:22,109 --> 00:26:28,149
when the Buddha was asked how
488
00:26:25,390 --> 00:26:29,620
enlightenment came and in the first

489
00:26:28,150 --> 00:26:32,560
paragraph he said well it comes

490
00:26:29,619 --> 00:26:35,199
gradually and he gave examples from

491
00:26:32,559 --> 00:26:36,789
nature like the germination of seeds and

492
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,860
other things that happen in nature

493
00:26:36,789 --> 00:26:41,470
gradually and then without any

494
00:26:38,859 --> 00:26:44,169
explanation he said in the next

495
00:26:41,470 --> 00:26:48,059
paragraph he said it comes suddenly and

496
00:26:44,170 --> 00:26:51,840
he gave examples from nature like

497
00:26:48,059 --> 00:26:51,839
lightning and thunder you know

498
00:26:54,470 --> 00:26:58,980
John you've been working with the Merce

499
00:26:56,940 --> 00:27:02,309
Cunningham dance company for quite a

500
00:26:58,980 --> 00:27:05,700
number of years what have you felt are

501
00:27:02,309 --> 00:27:07,740
the benefits of working with a dance

502
00:27:05,700 --> 00:27:09,990
company rather than just composing on

503
00:27:07,740 --> 00:27:13,140
your own what what happened in the band

504
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:16,259
I first wrote music and offered it to

505
00:27:13,140 --> 00:27:18,390
musicians they didn't want it and had no

506
00:27:16,259 --> 00:27:22,349
use for it and they said that wasn't the

507
00:27:18,390 --> 00:27:25,200
way to write music when I showed the

508
00:27:22,349 --> 00:27:27,569
same pieces to dancers they said oh I'll

509
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:30,769
make a dance with that they were very

510
00:27:27,569 --> 00:27:33,839
grateful for it I think I it's entirely

511
00:27:30,769 --> 00:27:37,379
because of my close connection through

512
00:27:33,839 --> 00:27:42,839
my life with dancers that my music has

513
00:27:37,380 --> 00:27:47,970
been used in the society there was a

514
00:27:42,839 --> 00:27:50,069
year run when I had the commission from

515
00:27:47,970 --> 00:27:53,519
the Boston Symphony to write one of the

516
00:27:50,069 --> 00:27:56,339
Bicentennial pieces that I couldn't

517
00:27:53,519 --> 00:27:58,589
continue with the Tonia dance company

518
00:27:56,339 --> 00:28:03,359
and so I left the company for a year or

519
00:27:58,589 --> 00:28:06,329
so when they went to Greece into Israel

520
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:10,649
some other places to the South of France

521
00:28:06,329 --> 00:28:14,659
and then I realized that it was such a

522
00:28:10,650 --> 00:28:18,380
large part of my life that

523
00:28:14,660 --> 00:28:20,630
something that that was part was really

524
00:28:18,380 --> 00:28:23,090
missing when I wasn't there so I've

525
00:28:20,630 --> 00:28:29,120
returned to the company however I know

526
00:28:23,089 --> 00:28:33,849
something is because of next year I'll

527
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,849
be 70 years old and there are so many

528
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,480
arrangements particularly in Europe and

529
00:28:36,289 --> 00:28:40,730
even in Japan being made that I have to

530
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,750
go to that I doubt whether I'll be able

531
00:28:40,730 --> 00:28:45,980
to to tour with the company and and
532
00:28:43,750 --> 00:28:51,079
fulfill those other commitments at the

533
00:28:45,980 --> 00:28:56,680
same time as it is now I bring my work

534
00:28:51,079 --> 00:28:56,679
with me and I I get a good deal done

535
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:03,700
because it's not really my life to

536
00:29:01,220 --> 00:29:03,700
perform

537
00:29:05,599 --> 00:29:13,139
my life is much more involved in

538
00:29:10,380 --> 00:29:16,740
discovering if I can something new that

539
00:29:13,140 --> 00:29:18,870
I haven't yet performed as your work

540
00:29:16,740 --> 00:29:21,299
with the Merce Cunningham Dance Company

541
00:29:18,869 --> 00:29:26,339
revealed anything to you about your

542
00:29:21,299 --> 00:29:29,369
composing yes I'm working with them with

543
00:29:26,339 --> 00:29:32,309
Paul Zukowski now the violinist and I'm

544
00:29:29,369 --> 00:29:35,189
writing finishing hopefully within at

545
00:29:32,309 --> 00:29:39,269
least one or two years more the Friedman

546
00:29:35,190 --> 00:29:42,390
etudes and it's it playing the violin is
547
00:29:39,269 --> 00:29:49,019
the complicated physical action that

548
00:29:42,390 --> 00:29:49,970
resembles dancing and I've I've had to

549
00:29:49,019 --> 00:29:53,009
make

550
00:29:49,970 --> 00:29:56,880
what Merce was talking about just a few

551
00:29:53,009 --> 00:30:02,329
minutes ago I've had to make certain

552
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:04,530
compromises between what was between the

553
00:30:02,329 --> 00:30:06,629
straightforward working and the chance

554
00:30:04,529 --> 00:30:10,440
operations and what but is actually

555
00:30:06,630 --> 00:30:13,050
physically how do you get for one thing

556
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:18,210
to another on the Royal hidden or on

557
00:30:13,049 --> 00:30:21,460
your feet so that I I let the chance

558
00:30:18,210 --> 00:30:24,700
operations operate

559
00:30:21,460 --> 00:30:28,650
and then with Zukowski we find out what

560
00:30:24,700 --> 00:30:34,330
is feasible and what isn't and we simply

561
00:30:28,650 --> 00:30:36,519
make those adjustments but don't you

562
00:30:34,329 --> 00:30:41,319
find with him sometimes we don't find

563
00:30:36,519 --> 00:30:43,299
any conclusive thing no what I mean is

564
00:30:41,319 --> 00:30:45,250
that that something that he might have

565
00:30:43,299 --> 00:30:48,299
thought was impossible and then you try

566
00:30:45,250 --> 00:30:51,519
it out and then it now because possible

567
00:30:48,299 --> 00:30:53,500
that that happened yes but then another

568
00:30:51,519 --> 00:30:56,019
thing happens and that is that he says I

569
00:30:53,500 --> 00:30:57,220
could do this but he had meanwhile

570
00:30:56,019 --> 00:31:00,190
learned to do that

571
00:30:57,220 --> 00:31:03,579
yes and so we change it to this week and

572
00:31:00,190 --> 00:31:08,380
then in concert he reverts to what he

573
00:31:03,579 --> 00:31:10,539
originally knew he in the throw of

574
00:31:08,380 --> 00:31:12,190
physical action and the complexity of

575
00:31:10,539 --> 00:31:15,940
the situation yes the pieces are not

576
00:31:12,190 --> 00:31:17,650
easy he does what first comes to mind

577
00:31:15,940 --> 00:31:19,390
and frequently what comes to mind is

578
00:31:17,650 --> 00:31:21,820
what he had memorized in the first place

579
00:31:19,390 --> 00:31:24,340
of course yes it is nothing to do with

580
00:31:21,819 --> 00:31:28,629
anything no no no that's that what's in

581
00:31:24,339 --> 00:31:32,230
the memory yes it's yes but muscle

582
00:31:28,630 --> 00:31:33,820
memory that's what it is I have the

583
00:31:32,230 --> 00:31:36,610
feeling and listening to both of you

584
00:31:33,819 --> 00:31:39,039
that even though problems may come up

585
00:31:36,609 --> 00:31:40,719
when you're working together that you

586
00:31:39,039 --> 00:31:45,460
never really feel that they're

587
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:48,819
unsolvable people is always away so to

588
00:31:45,460 --> 00:31:52,960
speak this show must go on but there

589
00:31:48,819 --> 00:31:54,879
always is a way somehow if you just keep

590
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:57,480
at it long enough and find some way to
591
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,480
deal with this