913012017 Bevoserotns B oget retrenoss [Brag seers Bprofte Boa in to check your private messages _@ Loa in to websi ‘war sefindia.org View topic - Clarification required in Ductile detain (S 13920) www.sefindia.org ‘STRUCTURAL ENGINEERING FORUM OF INDIA [SEE (Gee Te) raw) Fotow asstnte { Hmembertist usergroups [ Register @isecurty Tips & ponate Loa in to forum 3 towers \worng: Makes yau scan he donroased sachet wi ups ars tok Before opting tha, They may conta Vewses se se Scrat us oes Youle cowuded sgn to Sek ot Clarification required in Ductile detailing (IS 13920) ‘Goto page 1,2 Naxt Caen) Grae) Gra verse org Frum index > SEF General lecusson Author vere ined: 30 Aug 2011 Pome: 3 Back to top View previous topic #: View next topic Message Dre ve for26 209 1:05 Ps st Cateton eqn ue etang cS (SHE) Dear ALL, While providing the foundation system for our steel structures like Conveyor gallery supporting Trestles & Junction towers, we are following R.C Framed foundation system consist of columns, Tie beams and footings. More eases the governing load case for super structure design (Trestles & Junction Towers ~ Steel structure) is Wind load. Reaction from superstructure is applied as load to the foundation system. ‘My doubt is as follows, 1. Whether ductile detailing is required for this foundation system? 2. Iso what isthe ductile detailing provisions for underground structures like Tunnel, Pit ete? 3. For R.C buildings, whether the ductile detailing is required for below ground level (Plinth level)? 4, One of our client referring C1.6.1.3 (last Paragraph) of IS 1893- 2002- Part-1, and insisting us to provide ductile detailing for Conveyor Trestle & Junction tower foundations, ‘even though itis not governed/designed for Seismic loads, Also please note that the Structure is in Zone - III and the junction tower loading is more or less uniformly distributed than masses of concentration like floors. Kindly give the clarifications with reference to any Standards / Books. So that I can able to convince the Client Thanks & Regards, V.Netrivelan Coste Sam) users) sare mankfl fortis post DF. N. Subramanian (Gener Sponsor 7A opp [Drostad: rt Aar 26, 2013 1:09 pm Post subject: Re Caieaton required in Ductile detaiing (is (quote) 13820) Dear Er Vetrivelan, Even though the structure you are designing Is not governed by earthquake load, note that as per the code you are taking the actual EQ load but the design basis EQ divided by a factor R. If the R value is 5 then you are dividing the actual EQ load by a factor of 10! How do we say that the hitps:wa sefincia. orHorunviewtopie php?t=140008postdays-O&postorder=asc&start-0 189130/2017 aoned: 23 Feb 2008 Pome: 5207 Coeation: Gathersburs, MO, Back to top. Jeakumar79 Joined: 18 Apr 2008 Pome: 633 Back to top. /SANGEETA WII iaaaa Joined: 27 Jon 2032 htps:wma sefincia. orgiorun/viewtopic php’ ‘war sefindia.org View topic - Clarification required in Ductile detain (S 13920) structure will be able to resist the actual load. Its by means of over strength and ductility. How do we provide ductility? Itis only through seismic detailing, Hence provide close spacing of stirups in the footing column connection unto a length of 300 mm as given in the code, Though the foundation will also be affected, we normally assume that the footing is supported by soil on all the sides and hence will not be affected, OF course, check whether the soll not having liquefaction potential. Also turn the column rods in the footing toward the column and net outside the column as shown in the text books. Best wishes, NS. patie $8 am) DPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:33 am Post subject: deer Sir 4. The clause you have mentioned does not talk about ductile detailing, but enly design to ‘earthquake load even if it may not eppear to be predominant: 2, 1813920 however has @ clause 1.1 which insists that Ductile Detalling should be adopted forall RC structures in Zones II, 1V and V. 3. The ambiguity rises in whether we should consider the foundation component of steel structures (sheds, silos, ec) as RC structures or if the Lerm represents only those bulléings where the superstructure is also of RCC, In my humble opinion, even foundation component of steel structures should be considered for ductile detailing. Exceptions may be sheds without Intermediate/mezzanine floors and cranes where the dead load is small and live load is only at root level (which is neglected in calculation of seismic weight). There has already been debate on this particular ambiguity over in SEFI where some senior sefians have recommended ductile detaling for foundation of such sheds also. Yours sincerely, ‘Acunkumar patie $8 am) Diced: Men pe 29, 2083 5:am rt ic: Cen routed Duce ating (1920) Dear Mr Arun Kumar Referring to the third point in your emall, 1 feel we should adopt ductility even in the RCC part of Industral /Stee! structures as wel, although not specifically covered by our 1893 or 13920. Regards Sangeeta Wij From: sakumar79 [mailto:forum@sefindia.ora] Sent: 27 April 2013 08:04 To: general@sefindia.ora ‘Subject: (SEF1] Re: Clarification required in Ductile detailing (15 13920) Dear Sir, 1. The clause you have mentioned does not talk about ductile detailing, but only design to ‘earthquake load even if it may not eppear to be predominant, 2, 1813920 however has 2 clause 1.1 which insists that Ductile Detailing should be adopted forall RC structures in Zones IIL, 1V and V. \40008posicays-O8postorder=ascasta 2189130/2017 Back to top. rakashsiyani aa htps:wma sefincia. orgiorun/viewtopic php’ ‘war sefindia.org View topic - Clarification required in Ductile detain (S 13920) 3, The ambiguity rises in whether we should consider the foundation component of steel structures (sheds, silos, ec) as RC structures or ifthe term represents only those buildings where the superstructure is also of RCC. In my humble opinion, even foundation component of steel structures should be considered for ductile detalling. Exceptions may be sheds without intermediate/mezzanine floors and cranes where the dead load is small and live load is only at roof level (which is neglected in calculation of selsmic welght), There has already been debate on this, particular ambiguity over in SEFI where some senior sefians have recommended ductile cetaling {for foundation of such sheds also. Yours sincerely, ‘Arunkumer Posted via Email ‘=WRD1545p9 Description: Filesize: 323 Bytes Viewed 1006 Time(s) Gnome Cea) Drosted: Thu Age 24,2016 6:40 am Past subject: Dear All In IS 13920:1995 Cl 7.4.8, Confining reinforcement shall not be less than \40008posicays-O8postorder=ascasta9130/2017 oined: 34 Dec 2008 Poms: 37 hhtps:wea sefincia. orgiorun/viewtopic php’ ‘war sefindia.org View topic - Clarification required in Ductile detain (S 13920) 0.18 $ h fek/fy (Ag/AK-2).n... (Equation Is derived from experiment equation of richart repeat) fee But i's derivation only for 2 legged strups of column means only 1set stirrups (ACI Code) What is about for column having 8 legged strups 22 example like, 300x300 column having 18 number of 20dla bar and 3 set+3link stirups, where fek =20 Mpa, Fy =415 Mpa 8 clear cover equal to 40mm what is dla of stirups used and at which spacing ? Answer 1 like ‘Ash = 0.18*100*220*20/415 *((300x900)/(220x820)-1) = 94.78 mm2 ‘50 spacing for 12 dia bar = 113/94.78 *100 = 119mm ¢/c or spacing for 10 dia bar = 78.5/94.78*100 = 82 mm c/c ‘Means provided 10 dia at 82 mm ¢/e 3SET + 3link Answer 2 ike ‘Ash = 0.18*100*220"20/415"((300x300)/(220x220)-1) = 164 mm2 This area is only for 1SET of 2 legged stirrups we provided 3set +3link means equivalent to 4 SET 50 164/4 =41 mm2 ‘So provided 8 dia = 50.26/41 *100 ‘Means provided 8 dia at 122mm c/c 3SET+ 3link Which is correct answer for IS CODE EQUATION ?? Think Twice ?? ‘See attached figure 323.509 ‘Desenption iesize Gan ke Viewed 436 Tiel) \40008posicays-O8postorder=ascasta9130/2017 htps:wma sefincia. orgiorun/viewtopic php’ Back to top sknerinivasan io Joined 15 Apr 2013 Back to top rakashsiyant ined: 33 bee 2008, ‘war sefindia.org View topic - Clarification required in Ductile detain (S 13920) Coste C8 pm Comm [Ported Thu Apr 2, 2056 8:36 mm Posse Quuaie) Deer Prakashsieni Generally we have to consider Ax value Hoops outer to outer dimension. How 220X820 you have ‘considered T don't know If 2 leg Hoops is enough as per shear design, but Code is restricted the distance between outer {face of hoops should net exceed 300mm so we have to provide internal hops in ferm of overlapping hoops or cross tie in both direction, If we provide lke this in the formule the value of h willbe very lass and required spacing will be more other advantage will be to avoid buckling of vertical bars If we provide 2 leg hoops that will prevent the buckling of corner 4 bars We have to assume dla of hoops an¢ find spacing of hoops in this one the spacing not less than 75mm and grater than 100mm I think your Answer 1s wright and the hoops should have good ductiity Regards NSrinivasan (Cpr) SB Gm) Drostad: Fi Agr 22, 2016 6:22 am Past subject: (Qaveia) Dear N,Srinivasan ‘Thanks for your valuable reply, But in practical filed, I have seen that very less structural ‘consultant provided stirrups details as 10dia @ 100mm or 75mm, Mast of consultants in ahmedabad, Bangalore, Pune, Mumbal provided details ike Bdla @ 100mm at support Hc/6 and ‘center Bdia @150 cfc In ahmedabad city, I have seen, all consultants used 8 dia as stirrups, f anybody would Ike to Provided 10dia stirups than they loss project from cient. this scenario we have seen from last 5 ‘year so what we are doing?? very serious! \40008posicays-O8postorder=ascasta0017 venti. Vow ope Chafcaton ried in Duce dealing 1S 19820) Prakash Sani srarnvasan wrote Des rks “Soa Rove to consider Ak vole Hops outro outer dnersion, How 2208820 you 121g Hoop enough sper sear desi, but Cade rested the dtancebawaen cule tee Choose Sas to crcl Sobran st we hove to sve srl Ross em of casiatsn hago ate mise anean ine bovis ies ashe ene nae Sif es sa eye suc abe reser abatage wi ve at Seung wee bos spade nots at eileen iy bust fear 4 ee We have toasted thos arte spay of hoops ins one the spacing ot es nan 7Bnm ond grater bare "hin your Answer fs right ante hoops shoul have sod dutty egards Back to top Coste C8 om Comm amar Abhishek Singh Dros Ar 22,2678 om Pos bit oH san Kura og Wi Barun Kua é 2 Se: & Joined: 18 Nov 2010 [Back to top Janviksha SER Wember Joined 13 Apr 2011 hhtps:wera sefincia. orgHorun/viewtopic php’ ‘Against the popular opinion here, I would say that there is no need to do ductile detailing in {foundations (there is no method to do it also @). Only the portion of the columns going into the footing will be detalled for ductity. [As Dr. NS Sir is saying and if lam understanding It correctly, the EQ coming into the footing will be absorbed by tne surrounding soll through winkler spring energy dissipation. Since in the superstructure does not have any surrounding elastic material, we have no choice but to tell the bullding to absorb it internally through ductility, ‘This is just a judicious academic guess....not very sure about it Best, Abhishek Exvfie 8pm) DPoted: Sat Apr 23,2016 4:42am Pos ube: prakashsiyani wrote: “Thanks for your valuable reply, But tn practial led, 1 have seen that very less structural consultant provided strups details as 10cia @ 100mm er 75mm, Most of consultants in Shmedabad, Bangalore, Pune, Mumbal provided detalslke 6dla @ 100mm at suppor He/S and center dia @150 ce In ahmedabad city, have seen, all consultants used 8 dla as stimups, if anyDody woul like to provideo Toate stirups than they loss project fom cies, this scenario we Rave seen from Tost S'year so what we are ding?? very seious!! Prakash Sivan! ‘sknstinivasan wrote: Dear Prakashsiyan ‘Generally we have to consider Ak value Hoops outer to outer dimension. How 12 tog Hoops is enough as per shear design, but Code is restricted the astance between cuter face of hoops should net exceed 300mm so we have to provice internal hoops inform of oveslapping hoops or cross ti in both diction, I we provide like shi In te formula the value oth willbe very lass and veauired spacing ‘wilbe more athes advantage wil be to ovold bucking of vertical bars Il we provige ag hoops that wil revert the Suckling af corner 4 bars \40008posicays-O8postorder=ascasta9130/2017 Back to top. Janviksha SEE Member ones 13 Apr 2011 Back to top. ara sefindia.org View topic - Clarification required in Ductile detain (I 13920) We have to assume dia of heaps and fine spacing of hoops i not less than 75mm ane grater than LOOmre fs one the spacing 1 think your Answer 1 is wright and the hoops should have good ductity Regards fern 23) Dose: Sa Ar 23, 2016 4:59 am Post subject ‘dear Mr, Prakash humbly disagree with your statement specific to Ahmedabad consultants mentioning "all Akmedabad consultants use 8# stirrups " and if they provide 104 stirrups, they ull lose the project" itis far from truthy reality structural detailing 's being done purely on menits of calculations backed up by sound engineering judgements, ‘your observations might be true in some speciic cases but not applicable to all best regards vvatsal mahendra Shukla principal structural engineer anviksha::structural design studio ahmedabad Efi, $8 pm=) Dispos rom oreo: \dla.org Forum Index -> SEFI General “al tmes are GH Goto page 1, 2 Next 2ump to; [SEPT General Disnssion iP) Tenslate toe _¥ ] [ea] htps:wma sefincia. orgiorun/viewtopic php’ ‘You eannot post new topics in this forum "You eamot reply to topis ins frum ‘You canmot ede your poses nhs foram You cannot delete your post inthis foram “ou cannot vate nats inthis foram “ow eanmos anche in the frum You eam downass les nth frum 2008 SEANOWA ndan Osman Rasraton \40008posicays-O8postorder=ascasta 18913012017 ‘war sefindia.org View topic - Clarification required in Ductile detain (S 13920) rote sss fon aero eretner 9 qanrte or crear ibe ears protic rv, saree ely ing Forum of Inc ‘STBLIeT! 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