EDUCATION.

HL Deb 14 March 1833 vol 16 cc632-9632

The Lord Chancellor 

rose to move that a message be sent to the Commons,

requesting them to communicate to that House certain
documents, which had been presented annually for some years to
the other House of Parliament; but as they were very
voluminous, it was not his intention to move that the whole
should be printed, but only that such parts of them might be
extracted from the mass as might serve to elucidate
that 633particular part of the subject to which he was about
shortly to draw their Lordships' attention. The Returns in question
resulted from the Report of a very valuable and important
Committee of the other House of Parliament, which sat for two
Sessions, including part of the third, to inquire into the state of
the education of the people of this country. In submitting this
Motion to their Lordships, he wished to avail himself of the
opportunity of stating why it was not his intention to ground upon
those documents any immediate measure for the accomplishment
of that most desirable object, the improvement of the moral
condition of the people, by affording them the means of popular
education. And as great misapprehension had gone abroad as to
the reasons which had induced him to abandon the idea of
bringing forward measures similar to those which, at a former
period, he introduced into the other House of Parliament, he
trusted their Lordships would bear with him while he stated why
he had come to the resolution of not proposing, now that he was
a member of the Government, any such measures as those which
he felt it his duty to introduce into the other House when he sat
there. It was not yesterday that he came to the resolution of not
bringing forward, at least for the present, any such measure; for
it was nearly six years since he had stated in another place the
reasons why he abstained from again introducing the Education
Bills, which eight years before (in 820) he had submitted to the
consideration of Parliament. In 1820 he framed the Bills in
question, and presented them to the House of commons; and the
grounds on which he arrived at a change of opinion, in respect of
them, were substantially these: These Bills were not proceeded
with, in consequence of the very great diversity of opinion which
existed respecting the provision comprised in them, among a
certain class of his Majesty's subjects, the Dissenters of the
different denominations. They were founded on returns which had
been made by the parochial clergy throughout England, who had
been called upon to do so, for the purpose of showing what was
the then existing state of education in their respective parishes.
Those Returns established one important fact, namely, that there
existed at that period of time, by means of endowed schools and
of unendowed schools, and, in some instances, 634of Sunday
schools, very considerable means for affording education to the
people; but that those means were inadequate was admitted; for
it resulted that, in no less a number than 1,000 parishes, no
schools whatever existed; and even in various parishes where
schools did exist, they were wholly insufficient to supply the
wants of the people. Some measures were therefore considered
necessary to remedy these deficiencies. He spoke the sense of
the Education Committee when he stated, that the general
opinion at that time was, that the means of popular education
were extremely deficient. It appeared that, by the means of day
schools partly endowed, and partly unendowed, education was
afforded, to an extent that sufficed for 600,000 children, perhaps
the amount was rather above that number; between 600,000 and
700,000, being a proportion of about one-fifteenth of the
population of the country. It was thought that there ought to be
means to educate one-tenth, or one-ninth—some thought a one-
seventh of the population. The day schools unendowed were
about 14,000, and from returns it appeared there were 478,000
children taught. In this return the Sunday schools were not
included. It was then thought by some of the best friends of
education who had investigated the subject that it was not
advisable to establish a compulsory rate for the support of
schools lest those benevolent persons who then by voluntary
contributions maintained 14,000 unendowed day schools, at
which 478,000 children were educated, should withdraw their
support from those establishments. Nevertheless, he, in common
with many persons, was of opinion that a compulsory rate should
be established for the purposes of education and for this reason—
that the support which schools received from voluntary
subscriptions was of a temporary fluctuating, and fleeting nature;
so that not only might it vary in one year as compared with
another, bat it might utterly pass away. In 1826 he again brought
forward his Bill; but in consequence of the serious objections
which the great body of Dissenters entertained to many of its
details he withdrew it. In 1828 a new era opened with respect to
the Dissenters. In that year the repeal of the Test and
Corporation Acts, removed the distinction which had principally
divided his Majesty's subjects into Churchmen and Dissenters;
and it then appeared 635to him, that the objections which the
latter body had formerly entertained to his Bill would be removed.
But it also occurred to him that it would be most material to
endeavour to ascertain whether the voluntary support which was
given to schools in this country was of so fluctuating and fleeting
a nature as he had supposed. In order to satisfy his mind upon
this point he addressed in his individual capacity about 500
letters to clergymen in every county in the kingdom, requesting
information on the subject of the schools in their respective
parishes. To these letters, which were addressed quite at
random, he received nearly as many answers, and the
information which they contained was highly gratifying. The result
showed that whereas in 1818 there were in the whole kingdom,
as he had already stated 14,000 unendowed day schools,
educating 478,000 children, in 1828 there were in the particular
places to which he had addressed his letters alone no less than
3,200 schools of this description, educating 103,000 children.
Taking these places as affording a fair sample of the rest of the
kingdom, as he had a right to do from the manner in which he
had addressed his circulars, the result would be, that there were
230,000 unendowed day schools educating 1,030,000 children,
ail supported by voluntary subscriptions, independently of the
endowed schools, which educated 165,000 children, and of the
Sunday schools, which furnished very useful and salutary
education, though necessarily of inferior importance to that which
could be obtained from day schools. Under these circumstances,
he became a convert to the opinion of those who thought it would
be unwise to disturb a state of things which produced such
admirable results; and therefore he abandoned his plan for
establishing a compulsory rate for the purposes of education. Ten
years' experience had shown that perfect reliance might be
placed on these voluntary contributions and that it was rather to
be expected that they would increase than decrease. Trusting to
these voluntary supplies, he did not think it would be advisable to
turn legislative attention to the subject; and, therefore, he had
abstained from bringing it forward. He must, however, state, that
the means of education were still defective, but not generally,
and throughout the country, which was the case in the year
1818. These defects 636applied to two particulars, and, as he had
intimated, they were still in existence. The first defect had
reference to very small parishes. He believed that there were in
the country not fewer than 1,500 parishes at that moment
without any day school. But then it would be found, on inquiry,
that these parishes were exceedingly small, in some cases not
extending to more than twenty or thirty families, and in others
not containing more than thirty, forty, or fifty individuals. Now, it
would always be difficult to keep up a school in such parishes;
because the number to instruct was so limited. In parishes so
circumstanced the mode of education, unless the children were
sent to the next school, would much depend upon private
instruction. The other, and more important defect of education, to
which he wished shortly to call the attention of the House, was
one which could not be too much deplored, nor could it be too
speedily dealt with, in order to remedy the evil—he meant the
case of large towns, nay, the capital itself, and many of the large
towns in the North of England, not having proper means for
education. He would venture to say, that in no country in Europe,
were so many persons circumstanced as in those large
manufacturing towns, where the ordinary means of a common
education were wanting. This would be found on inquiry to be the
case, as many persons who had turned their attention to the
subject could testify; and that defect ought to be supplied without
delay. It was a very common observation made, that,
notwithstanding the increase of education, there was also an
increase of crime. There was, however, a great fallacy attached to
this view of the subject. It was expecting too much from human
nature that all vice and immorality were to disappear, because
education was generally diffused: but this would be found to be
true, that where the calendars were the heaviest, the parties
charged were the most ignorant. Some alterations had lately
been made in our law, which, taking away the capital offence,
made prosecutors not averse from prosecuting, and made,
accordingly, the number of prosecutions, and apparently of
crimes, greater than formerly. Circumstances of that kind
satisfactorily accounted for the increased number of convictions
and commitments. But confirmed in the opinion which he had
always held, 637that the more the people were enlightened, the
less would be the amount of crime among them: by the great and
notorious diminution of crime which took place where education
was most in progress—and particularly of crimes connected with
violence, especially where the population had been rapidly
increasing. That circumstance demonstrated that persons who
held the opinions to which he had just referred, must argue
without a knowledge of facts, and without a due regard to the
essential principles of the human mind. In Russia and Spain,
where education could scarcely be said to exist, an ample
illustration was afforded of the truth of his proposition. In the
latter country, during a given period, in the course of which 5,800
persons were committed to prison, no less than 3,500 of those
committals were for crimes connected with violence against the
person; that was to say, more than one-half—indeed, about
three-fifths of the whole. Contrast this result with what appeared
on the face of returns from a part of the world distinguished for
education, as much as Spain was for the want of it. In
Pennsylvania, of 7,400 crimes committed, only 640 of them were
attended with violence; a proportion not of three-fifths, as in the
former case, but of one-twelfth. In the northern provinces of
France, as contrasted with the southern, nearly the same
disparity existed. If he were called upon to "give arithmetic" for
the truth of his proposition, he could do so, readily, from
authentic returns and papers. He could state a fact which
occurred recently, in one of our own large gaols—the name he
would not mention. Upon an inquiry being instituted into the
condition of the prisoners, it was found that out of 400 persons
who were confined for offences, 200 were utterly incapable of
writing and reading; and fifty more knew their alphabet, but
could not read. Thus, there were 250 individuals out of 400, who
were totally uneducated. From a report, also, that he had seen,
and which was made to the French minister, he found that the
proportion of educated and uneducated was about the same in
France as in England. Out of 7,400 cases of committal, the same
disparity appeared, of about 110 who were educated, to 250 who
were not. They ought, therefore, to lose no time in giving
education a better chance; because in proportion, to instilling
moral and religious feelings into 638the minds of the people—
especially of the young, they had a better hope of improving their
civil condition. He trusted their Lordships would excuse him for
entering into these particulars, which he should not have done,
had he not been apprehensive, on the one hand, that his reason
for not bringing forward these measures might be misunderstood;
and on the other, that it might be supposed that it was not the
wish of Government to afford better assistance than was at
present given to the great cause and vital interests of public
education. The noble Lord concluded by putting his Motion.

Lord Ellenborough 

thought it must be a source of gratification to the noble and

learned Lord, after what he had slated, that ten years ago his
measure was not carried into effect—for experience had proved,
even to the noble and learned Lord, that the remedy needed not
to be general, for the defect was not general. A compulsory rate
upon such a point, would have been highly objectionable, as
interfering with the voluntary efforts of individuals. Moreover, it
would have done away with that power of conciliating the poor,
which it was so desirable should be possessed—it would have
taken away that gratitude from the poor man's mind which it was
wholesome he should feel, and which he would feel when these
necessary duties were not neglected by those whom he naturally
looked up to. They had done much mischief already in this way,
and he hoped they would not attempt to do any more. He should
not support a proposition for supplying the means of education in
large towns. He regretted to hear the statement of the noble and
learned Lord—a statement which he did not expect—especially
from such a quarter. It was only lately, on account of the boasted
intelligence of these large towns, that they were called upon to
make a most serious and dangerous change in the Constitution of
the country—a change that was highly detrimental to the
agricultural interest. For his own part, on this subject of
education in large towns, he should look to the natural feelings of
the parents, and to the charitable impulse of the great capitalists,
whose duty—whose solemn duty, it was, to provide the means of
instruction to the offspring of those who, by their labour, their
talents, and ingenuity, furnished their subsistence, and opened
the road to the accumulation of their vast wealth. 639As to the
noble and learned Lord's remarks about the connection of crime
with ignorance, he should merely observe, that in Ireland, where
there was more reading and writing than in any country in the
world, there was also more of crime and depravity.

The Lord Chancellor 

said, that the noble Baron, with that refined ingenuity which he
alone could evince, had dragged the Reform Bill into the
discussion of a matter with which it was in no degree connected.
If they (the Ministers) had given an increased influence to the
population of the large towns, he believed they had not gone so
far as some noble Lords once proposed to go. If his memory did
not deceive him, he believed he had heard something from them
like a proposition for universal suffrage. And certainly if they had
adopted such a proposition as that, they would have
communicated the elective franchise to the class of persons
whom the noble Baron had described as uneducated, and
ignorant, and who had been left in that state, either by the fault
of the Government, or by that of the more opulent classes among
whom they lived. And one word in behalf of that respectable class
of individuals, the master-manufacturers of large country towns.
He had reason to know, that they did a great deal towards the
education of the children of the labouring classes; and that at
least as much ignorance and want of education were to be found
in many parts of the metropolis, as in manufacturing towns.

§Motion agreed to.

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