0:01

Does god exist is religion a force for good or evil

0:09

Can religion and science go hand in hand to find some answers I’ve come to oxford

0:16

Home to the oldest university in the english-speaking world and the place where I studied as an
undergraduate

0:22

One of the jewels in this city’s crown is the oxford union the debating chamber that’s witnessed such
legendary orators

0:28

As winston churchill benazir bhutto and of course kermit the frog I’ve come back to the union today to
sit

0:34

Down with the world’s most famous atheist professor richard dawkins to put faith on trial

0:40

And to ask is religion evil

0:54

Muslims riot in protest against a truly awful film demonizing islam dozens are killed

1:00

The quran is found guilty can be burned a christian pastor in florida tries to burn a copy

1:07

Of the quran and ignites global pandemonium even buddhists are at it attacking the muslim minority

1:14

Rohingyas in western berlin and of course the conflicts plaguing the modern middle

1:19

East are often blamed on ancient hatreds between the children

1:26

911 was this religiously inspired terrorism thousands died yet here’s the thing

1:33
Societies without faith haven’t fared much better communism banned all religions as joseph

1:40

Stalin and mao zedong systematically slaughtered millions of their own country

1:45

Is science any better since galileo and darwin scientists have sought to stamp out

1:51

Ignorance and unravel the mysteries of the universe but science has also poisoned the environment

1:57

Unleashed killing on an industrial scale and now threatens our entire planet

2:05

My guest today however stands firmly on the side of science and has provoked controversy with his

2:11

Attacks on religion ladies and gentlemen professor richard dawkins

2:17

One of the most prolific thinkers of his generation he shot to fame in the 1970s

2:22

With his research into genetics and his book the selfish gene transformed evolutionary biology his

2:28

Most famous work the god delusion sold millions of copies and has been translated into more than 30
languages

2:39

Richard thanks so much for joining us here on al jazeera before we go any further I just want to check
something are you an atheist

2:48

For all practical purposes yes nobody can actually say for certain that

2:53

Anything doesn’t exist but I’m an atheist in the same way as I’m an a leprechaunist and an a

2:58

Fairyist and an a pig unicornist so you’re not 100 sure god doesn’t exist
3:03

But you’re sure enough to make it practically I’m as sure as you are sure that fairies and

3:09

Leprechauns don’t exist and do you see an equivalence between the idea of god and the idea of a fairy

3:14

And a leprechaun the evidence for both is equally poor

3:19

You say in the god delusion one of my favorite sentences that jumps out of the page that the god of the
old

3:25

Testament is a petty unjust unforgiving control freak a vindictive bloodthirsty ethnic

3:32

Cleanser a misogynistic homophobic racist infanticidal genocidal filicidal pestilential

3:38

Megalomaniacal sadomasochistic capricious malevolent bully as a piece of rhetoric

3:45

Superb but do you really believe that congratulations on getting

3:50

Megalomaniacal right by the way most people most people fumble on that yes if you’ve actually read
the old testament I think

3:57

You would have to agree uh it is it’s hideous it’s an anti the god of the old testament

4:02

Who is a monster but also the god of the quran the new testament the hindu scripture well

4:08

Um the god of the quran I don’t know so much about the god of the new testament is widely advertised
as being a bit a

4:14

Bit more gentle and certainly on the whole he is there are things about the new testament that

4:19
I find in a way almost more objectionable than the old testament

4:25

But the sheer horror of the character I I said he was the most unpleasant character in all fiction

4:32

Uh because I regarded as fiction of course um and yes he is I mean he’s he’s jealous

4:38

He’s vindictive he’s callous he’s cruel and this is a god that is worshipped by

4:44

Loved by adored by followed by millions billions of people I hope not I hope that the god that is

4:50

Adored by millions of people is a grown-up kind of god who is no longer I hope that most people who

4:57

The kind of people I would like to know who worship and admire him regard those stories as not literally

5:04

True now there are some who do regard them as literally true and uh I I suspect they either haven’t read

5:11

The old testament or um they’re not the kind of people I would wish to know because because you

5:16

Don’t you do not what want to worship a character like that by all means

5:22

Worship some kind of um great spirit of the universe some kind of creative

5:27

Intelligence who who created the universe but don’t worship this vile vindictive monster of

5:32

The old testament why throw around these sweeping statements about religion

5:37

Not the god of the old testament but religion itself being evil I mean do you believe religion is evil

5:44
No but you say plenty of times in this book that religion is evil you said in a speech famously that I think
a case can be made that

5:49

Faith is one of the world’s great evils comparable to the smallpox virus virus

5:55

But harder to eradicate I do think that yes because what I’m talking about there is

6:01

Faith where faith means belief in something without evidence

6:07

Because if you believe something without evidence then that justifies anything you you’re no

6:12

Longer vulnerable to somebody coming back at you and saying hang on a minute let me argue the case

6:18

If you believe it without evidence which is what faith is then you don’t argue the case you say no I’m not
arguing that case this is my

6:24

Faith it’s mine it’s private I don’t dis I don’t dissent from it I don’t retreat from it

6:30

You’re just going to have to accept it now that is evil and yet you spend so much of your time debating
people of

6:35

Faith so clearly people of faith are interested in having discussions they’re not just all blind believers
insisting on their way of nobody said

6:42

Anything about all of them I mean the vast majority of religious people are perfectly good nice people
um as you are there’s no

6:50

Suggestion I’ve ever made that all religious people are evil of course not there is a logical progression
that goes

6:57

From believing in faith having faith that that your god tells you to do something
7:03

And doing terrible deeds like suicide bombing like flying planes into into skyscrapers

7:09

The vast majority of people of faith don’t do such terrible things but those people

7:15

Who do terrible things do it believing that they are righteous and good and they think that they’re

7:21

Doing the will of their god so they are they’re not evil people they’re actually good people by their own
lights

7:26

They believe they’re doing good things and that’s why religion is evil because it can make you do evil
things believing that they are good

7:33

Do you really believe that people who go out and carry out suicide bombings it is faith

7:38

Religion is to blame not geopolitics not the world not their lives not what’s going on around us

7:43

It’s religion plain and simple not always it’s not in the case of the tamil tigers for example

7:50

Um but I think in a great majority of cases it is and I think it certainly makes it a hell of a lot easier the
evidence is plain that that in many

7:57

Um islamic suicide bombers you talk to them those who fail you talk to them afterwards

8:02

They’ve got paradise on the brain they they’re desperate to go to a martyr’s heaven and that’s what
they think about

8:08

Professor robert pape of the university of chicago studied every known case of suicide terrorism 315
cases

8:15
And he came to the conclusion that there’s quote little connection between suicide terrorism and
islamic fundamentalism or any of the

8:21

World’s religions the tap root of suicide terrorism he says is nationalism it’s about land it’s

8:27

About power it’s about politics it’s not about faith faith is just a cover what do you know that he doesn’t

8:32

Know well I’ve seen other other evidence there are different people say say different things I’ve seen
plenty of

8:38

Of testimonies of uh suicide bombers who have said precisely that they do it because

8:43

They want a martyr’s paradise you include the seven seven bombers in that case as well uh

8:48

Yes I believe so have you watched their suicide videos uh I’m not sure that I have no they talk about
afghanistan

8:54

They talk about iraq they talk about crusades they talk about war between the west and the muslim
world

8:59

They talk about invading armies I mean there’s a lot of there’s a lot of real world stuff in there I’m not
saying of course not that faith

9:06

Doesn’t play a role but I’m just interested in this idea that you think faith is is the issue you say you said

9:12

In a very famous column you wrote four days after 9 11 that this came from religion

9:17

There are enormously good reasons for people to take political action and this this we see in northern
ireland we see

9:24

It in afghanistan we see it in in sri lanka where the tamil tigers

9:30

Operated so yes there are political reasons but the promise of

9:36

Of a martyr’s heaven which is we cannot deny that this is part of islamic doctrine

9:42

Um martyrs go straight to paradise yes but not terrorists not murderers not

9:48

Criminals well they believe that because they’re told it by their imams but then what about the majority
of the world’s muslim

9:53

Clerics in ulama who came out and condemned 9 11. Strange I’m delighted they did but they were pretty
quiet about it what

10:00

About the argument that says human beings are prone to violence they’re prone to carrying out crimes

10:06

Against their fellow man you can blame religion you can blame politics you can blame economics lots of
factors

10:11

Lots of excuses why what I don’t get why do you only focus on religion for fairness why don’t you also
isolate the other

10:18

Factors there are lots of other factors and I’m I’m quite happy to say that yes there are there are lots of
rain if you look at the wars of history um

10:25

Some of them have been about religion plenty of them have not been about religion I never said religion
is the the sole cause of wars and and uh

10:33

Violence you you may not have said that but you would accept that the new atheists people like sam
harris the late

10:39

Christopher hitchens have blamed a lot of history’s wars on god and religion and you make a similar
suggestion under god
10:45

Delusion yeah I would blame a lot of history’s wars but the most terrible wars in history the two major
wars of the sec of this

10:51

20th century are nothing to do with religion those are at that point yeah and the cold war and vietnam

10:57

Yes I would of course yes so when you have a situation where some of the world’s worst crimes

11:04

Were carried out not by believers how then does that square with your idea that

11:09

It’s religion that causes good people to do bad things religion that’s driving violence your original
statement against

11:14

Religion at the start of this dogmatic belief in something like religion or something like marxism or
something like nazism

11:22

These are all or need patriotism I mean my country right or wrong these are all pernicious beliefs which

11:29

Can drive people to do to do terrible things and in the second world war um hitlerism was driven by

11:37

By by racism by a sort of subvagnerian

11:43

Pagan religion which hitler revived um stalin’s atrocities were were motivated

11:50

By a dogmatic belief in marxism and atheism stalin happened to be an

11:58

Atheist but he was never motivated soviet union was not based on scientific rationalism on the
alienation of

12:03

Religion and god um stalin persecuted the church he pas stalin persecuted just about everybody
12:10

Are you saying that the soviet union the leaders of the soviet union were not driven by a hatred of
religion

12:17

And a belief that science and human progress and materialism was the way forward they

12:23

Believed that materialism science human progress there was a kind of mark there was a marxist slant on
those

12:28

On those words and they were hideously misused mao zedong when he invaded tibet

12:34

Told the dalai lama that religion is poison the subtext to the late christopher

12:40

Hitchens book was religion poisons everything can you blame people of religion for saying

12:45

Hold on we’ve heard these ideas before that religion poisons everything and it leads in one direction

12:51

It’s an incidental fact that mao zedong and stalin happened to be atheists they incidentally wasn’t it

12:56

Wasn’t core to communism it I I think it was not core to communism no so when karl marx was

13:03

Talking about religion being the opiate of the masses that was just a throwaway line

13:08

Yeah I mean that was that was um uh an out of context um statement I mean

13:15

What what on earth do you think that’s got to do with atheism I don’t know let me put a statement in
context to you

13:20

Albania one of the world’s worst dictatorships tyrannies that we’ve seen in the last hundred years article
37 of albania’s communist
13:27

Constitution declared quote the state recognizes no religion and supports atheistic propaganda in

13:34

Order to implant a scientific materialistic world outlook in people what do you think you’re saying I
mean

13:40

That’s an appalling thing to say of course it is why is that an appalling thing to say what do you disagree
with in that statement why would I want to support

13:46

Atheistic propaganda I support science and truth but you don’t support spreading atheism I support
spreading science and truth if

13:53

That happens to be atheism I support it I’m not going to start bullying people into into being atheist I’m
not going to

13:59

Start trying to compel people to be to be atheist that was what

14:04

The albanians were doing it’s nothing to do with whatever you liked it of course but you’d like to
persuade them not to be believers I’d like to raise

14:11

Consciousness in a gentle civilized way using argument rational argument

14:16

From evidence in your book you cite lots of evidence for the bad things religions what I wonder is if you
were being fair

14:23

Wouldn’t you have also included some of the good things that religion’s done my passion is for scientific
truth i

14:28

Don’t much care about what’s good and evil actually I care about what’s true I mean do you

14:33

Actually believe in your muslim faith you believe that muhammad split the moon in two do you
14:38

Believe that muhammad flew to heaven on a winged horse for example I’d pay you the compliment of
assuming that dude that you don’t know I do i

14:45

Believe in miracles you believe that yes you believe that muhammad went to heaven on a winged horse
yes I believe in god i

14:51

Believe in miracles I believe in revelation I mean the point here is that let’s

14:56

Assume I’m wrong richard I’m wrong let’s assume I’m wrong I’m wrong I’m happy to concede that

15:03

Richard I’m happy to concede it I’m wrong all religions are wrong god does not exist we’re all mad

15:08

The issue is we exist we’ve existed for a while I think even christopher hitchens said and you’ve said in
your

15:14

Writings we’re not going anywhere so my question to you is why not acknowledge for example the good
things that williamson

15:21

Do you accept that religion has done good things despite all of our mad beliefs and our miracles I accept
that individual

15:26

Religious people have done an enormous number of good things not driven by religion well I mean who

15:32

Knows mean spiritually you won’t give any credit taking somebody like um uh martin luther king for
example

15:38

Reverend martin luther king yes um obviously he was a he was a cleric

15:43

Um so so um I imagine that that fed into the good

15:49
Things that he did plenty of other things did he was a great admirer of gandhi and he was a great
admirer of

15:55

Non-violence he was a brilliant uh and wonderful great man would you disconnect

16:01

Mlk’s non-violence and gandhi’s non-violence from their very strongly hell religious beliefs they didn’t

16:07

Well um I think that’s it’s not a thing that I really care

16:13

About actually I mean I I think they do you care about it richard saying that people carry out violence in
the name of god

16:19

And I cite you an example of very famous people who’ve done good and non-violence in the name of
god and you say

16:24

I’m not interested if god doesn’t exist then doing something good in his name is

16:32

It’s great that something good gets done but there’s no evidence at all that believing in god

16:37

Makes you more likely to do good things I can’t see any noble logical connection between

16:43

Being religious and doing good things let’s concede that god does not exist let’s concede

16:50

That religion is false my problem here is trying to understand why

16:55

Some of the new atheists are so anti-religion when religious people clearly are doing lots of good things

17:01

And they’re doing it in the name of god I’ve never denied that religious people are doing good things
and non-religious people are doing good things

17:07
I care about what’s true I’m an educator I’m a scientist and I want people to understand the

17:13

Truth about the universe in which they live that’s what I care about and I regard religion as a a
distraction uh

17:21

And in some cases a pernicious distraction from true education uh which I which i

17:28

Love and value the way you value love your god can you not do both well so long as they don’t divide
rituals

17:36

But but um if you if you if you actually believe muhammad flew to heaven on a winged

17:41

Horse that’s an anti-scientific belief and that could be wrong but is wrong but

17:46

That doesn’t change that doesn’t change how do you know it’s wrong oh come on

17:51

You’re a man of the 21st century I’m just asking it comes back to my original question the rational
position the rational

17:58

Position is the agnostic position why up there what I mean the rational position I I didn’t say up there I
didn’t pick a place

18:04

Why would a woman horse be that be the way to get to heaven if it’s not up there I asked I asked I asked
a question about you asked about proof

18:10

I’m all for saying I can’t prove it but can you prove he didn’t do it I mean this is this is the end old debate
fly to heaven

18:17

I’m just asking on your criteria I’m just asking you no I can’t prove it and I can’t prove it it wasn’t a
golden unit but I’m

18:24
Fascinated that you’d rather I’m fascinated you’d rather talk about uh what animals the prophet may or
may

18:30

Not have used 1400 years ago rather than talk about what muslims or islam is doing in the world today
good

18:36

Or bad well that seems to be the distraction if anyone’s distracted it seems to be you well that that’s
your that’s your view I’m

18:43

Fascinated by how somebody a a respected sophisticated journalist in the 21 st century

18:49

Can believe that a prophet flew to heaven on a winged horse let me ask you this are all people who

18:54

Hold beliefs in god and in miracles in the supernatural do you regard them all as intellectually inferior to
you

19:00

I regard those beliefs as intellectual nonsense I don’t regard the individuals as

19:06

Intellectually inferior to me because many of them palpably are not if you go back in history then all bets
are off because before before darwin for

19:13

Example um it it’s not at all surprising that before darwin people believed in

19:18

All kinds of things which they wouldn’t believe in now there are many people many scientists today who

19:25

Say they’re religious and if you actually ask them what they believe in many cases it turns out what they
believe is in some sort of

19:32

Deistic god some sort of [Music] intellectual spirit some sort of um uh

19:39
Creative intelligence that lay at the root of the universe perhaps invented the laws of physics something
like that

19:44

I don’t agree with this book but it’s an excellent book very well argued you’re very passionate clearly
there’s one section

19:50

In the book where you talk about bringing up children oh yes and you talked about education you talk
about a story when you you tell

19:57

A story about being in in ireland and talking about the catholic child abuse scandal and there’s one

20:02

Quote on page 356 which I will read out to you horrible as sexual abuse no doubt

20:08

Was the damage was arguably less than the long-term psychological damage

20:14

Inflicted by bringing the child up catholic in the first place you believe that being brought up as a

20:20

Catholic is worse than being abused by a priest there are shades of being abused by a

20:27

Priest and uh I quoted the I I quoted the example of a woman in america who wrote

20:34

To me saying that when she was seven years old she was sexually abused by a priest in

20:39

His car and at the same time a friend of hers who also seven who was protestant or was of

20:46

Protestant family I should say died and she was told that because her

20:52

Friend was protestant she had gone to hell and would be roasting in hell forever

20:57

And she told me that of those two abuses she got over the physical abuse it was
21:03

The yucky which she got over it but the mental abuse of being told about hell she took

21:08

Years to get over and with respect richard you’re an empiricist you’re a rationalist

21:13

One letter from one woman in america isn’t really but the basis to extrapolate and make sure sweeping
conclusions is of course true

21:19

And I’m not basing it on that it seems to me that that telling children such that they really

21:25

Really believe that people who sin are going to go to hell

21:30

And roast forever forever that your skin grows again when it when

21:37

It peels off with with with with burning it seems to me to be intuitively entirely reasonable

21:44

That that is a worse form of child abuse that will give more nightmares that will give more genuine
distress

21:50

Because they really believe that they don’t believe it’s not a problem of course you also let me just feel I
mean

21:56

I’ve been put on the spot about this health far thing um I we haven’t really been put on this in

22:01

What sense have you been put on the spot well I I I sense that you think it’s somehow obvious that

22:07

That having a priest if you’re a small girl having a priest I would be very interested in asking the

22:13

Audience whether being told about heaven and hell as a child being brought up as catholic is worse

22:18
Than that was worse than being abused by a priest okay let’s have a show of hands

22:24

Is it worse to be abused by a priest and if you believe it’s worse for a

22:30

Priest to abuse a child than to bring up your child catholic raise your hands are they both as bad as each
other raise

22:36

Your hands so we have a three-way split in the audience let’s finish this section with

22:42

One last related subject on this question a personal question from me you talk about how

22:48

Um to teach children that there is one god or that god created the world in six

22:53

Days that is child abuse to even teach your children religion is child abuse so

23:01

I have a daughter I teach her about islam and the horse

23:06

Am I guilty of child abuse do you teach her the world was created in six days no because islam doesn’t
teach that really

23:11

I’m delighted to hear that I ask again am I guilty of child abuse for teaching my child stories from the

23:16

Quran yes or not good to know we are going to talk more about science

23:21

And we’re gonna go back to the audience to ask some questions to professor dawkins in part two we’ll

23:26

Be back after the break

23:42

[Music]
23:57

Welcome back we’re talking about religion and its impact on the world good bad evil we’re joined here
by our

24:04

Guest evolutionary biologist professor richard dawkins richard science is your great passion

24:11

And you’re a great believer in science you’re an evangelist for science a promoter and defender of
science but what would you say to those people

24:17

Who say there are some quite important questions genuine questions that science cannot

24:23

Answer why are we here what’s the meaning of life where does morality come from and that if religion
wants to have a

24:29

Cracker answering those what’s science is objection I’m not sure I’d accept that science

24:35

Can’t answer those particular questions I think there are other questions science probably shouldn’t try
to answer like what is what is right and what is wrong those

24:43

Are those are questions that are not the immediate concern of science but um what’s the meaning of
life um why is

24:50

There why is there anything how did it all start those seem to me to be uh scientific questions or
potentially

24:58

Scientific questions if there are some questions of that sort that science can never answer

25:04

Then we should at least keep trying to answer them and if science can’t answer them religion

25:10

Having a crack at answering them if there’s no reason to think that religion has any any

25:16
Any basis for an answer then why would religion have a crack why would you bother to listen to religion
having a

25:21

Crack at answering them um I mean one thing I would say is there may be questions that science can’t
answer like

25:27

The origin of of everything but if science can’t answer them then religion certainly can’t and nothing else
can

25:34

Either why why is it so the science or nothing well yes because because science is is

25:41

Is the method of getting what’s true I mean if you take something like

25:46

Um how did the universe begin which is a very baffling deep question um how did life begin another
baffling

25:52

Deep question both those questions are are unanswered the best methods we have of of

25:58

Approaching those are the methods of science because these are the methods that that look at
evidence that that evaluate

26:04

Evidence in all sorts of sophisticated ways what has religion got to do with that other than just looking at
the

26:11

The writings of somebody who wrote a few centuries ago I mean why would you bother to to read those

26:18

Writings so the great philosophers and theologians in history have grappled with these big questions
and thought about spiritual issues moral

26:25

Issues the transcendent they’re all wasting their time uh yes they’re wasting their time what about why
does my life have meaning

26:32
What’s its worth well where does my dignity come from you’re your meaning and your dignity are up to
you and mine are up to me

26:38

And and these are not questions that science would attempt to answer um each person finds their own
meaning

26:45

In their in their own life and and good luck to them and what’s what’s wrong with religion

26:51

Religion offering moral certainties is if as you say science can’t answer moral questions

26:56

Science can’t offer moral certainty but I don’t see that religion can either you don’t think that the
religious

27:01

Values we have today the moral codes we live by today are originally derived from judeo-christian
values islamic values

27:07

Hindu values not really no I mean there are I mean things like the golden rule things like treat others as

27:13

You would wish to be treated yourself um these are ancient uh values which

27:19

Are which crop up all over the world they’ve been adopted by many religions you can find

27:25

Justifications for them in moral philosophy you can find justifications for them in evolutionary biology
which is my own

27:32

My own subject I don’t seriously think you’re going to base your morality on on religion because if you
do

27:38

Then you’ve got to say well do I base it on scripture I hope you don’t base it on scripture because if you
do

27:43
Then you’re going to have some pretty horrible values unless you deliberately cut out those parts of
scripture which which

27:51

Which are unacceptable to modern morality do you believe science is omnipotent

27:56

That it can answer all questions I’ve already said no I’ve already said it can’t answer moral questions but

28:02

Questions about the real world questions about reality questions about the origins of things uh why life
is the

28:09

Way it is why the world is the way it is why the universe is the way it is uh yes science is the way to
answer that

28:14

Some of your critics have uh argued that you are willing to hold religion up to a very

28:21

It put it under the microscope hold it to account scrutinize it criticize it you don’t do the same to science
or

28:26

Scientists or some of the bad things that have come out of science well bad things that come out of
science um

28:35

If by that you mean horrible weapons uh nuclear weapons gas chambers nuclear

28:40

Eugenics yeah these are these are terrible things which are um technology that arises out of science

28:47

And it’s certainly true but if you want to do terrible things with technology but terrible weapons for

28:53

Example science is the best way to do it because science is the best way to do anything and

28:58

Even bad things even bad things I mean that that’s right if you want to develop a terrible weapon
29:03

You’re not going to do it in any other way than than by science the trick is not to want to develop a

29:08

Terrible weapon and that’s a political decision and you do not

29:13

You do not see science and religion as occupying two different compartments that can live side by side
they are in conflict with one another

29:20

In so far as religion attempts to um talk about reality and has an

29:27

Alternative vision of reality I think they are incompatible yes despite the fact as we discussed earlier

29:33

Many of our leading scientists are believers I think it’s baffling I mean what they

29:38

Impact practice do is they leave their their religion at the door when they go into the lab and

29:43

And so they get on with their their side they say they don’t well I know they do but um well okay

29:50

Isn’t it because religion answers all sorts of human needs and spiritual

29:56

Urges which science never can isn’t that the real issue that you can’t get away from religion may answer

30:02

Human needs I mean for example if you’re terrified of dying religion may answer the need for comfort

30:09

And consolation or if you if you miss a loved one who’s died and you hope to see them one day

30:15

In heaven then religion answers a need it doesn’t make it true and one last thing and then we’ll go to

30:21

The audience do you what do you say to those people who say
30:27

You talk a great deal about the power of science the truth of science you have people like sam harris
who say

30:32

Morality can be determined by science you have quite charismatic forceful people going around the
world

30:38

Proselytizing on behalf of science that science is actually the new religion that you guys are pitching

30:44

I wouldn’t say it’s a new religion I mean it certainly does some of the things that religion traditionally has
tried to do

30:50

Uh like to answer the deep questions of existence and and it does that and it does it

30:56

Successfully in a way that religion never has but it isn’t a religion because it’s not based upon any holy
books it’s not based

31:02

Upon faith it’s not based upon revelation it’s not based upon tradition it’s based

31:08

Upon evidence and there’s a huge difference and anything that we do not have evidence for that’s not
scientifically

31:14

Testable you would dismiss well scientifically testable is is putting the bar

31:19

Rather highly but uh I do think that that evidence is the only good reason to believe anything yes so

31:25

Love beauty aesthetics I mean that that there’s obviously important questions and and um

31:31

If you ask that some question like um how do you know that your wife loves you um it’s from

31:38
Evidence I mean it’s not science it’s not scientifically testable evidence but it’s evidence it’s little looks in
the eyes little catches

31:45

In the voice it’s it’s um that is evidence that’s not that’s not just

31:50

Internal revelation okay let’s open up to the audience we’ve been talking about god evil war terrorism
bringing up your

31:58

Children living a good life religion and happiness science versus religion who would like to answer the
first

32:04

Question yes you if the almighty god

32:10

Appears suddenly on the cloud or on the earth or part of the universe what is your

32:18

Reaction are you going to believe or are you going to go against him what would it take for you to
believe in god not just yeah

32:25

I mean popping his head through the clouds yeah that that’s the thing I’ve I’ve worried about a lot um
obviously

32:34

It would do wonders for the book the reason I worry about it is that is that obviously as a as

32:39

A scientist I’m committed to the view that I would change my mind if evidence came along

32:45

And so it’s a very important question what would that evidence look like and I’ve talked about it with

32:51

My colleagues a great deal I used to think yes if there was a great deep paul robeson voice coming out of

32:58

The cloud saying I exist and then then yes obviously I would I would believe it
33:03

But have you ever seen a really really good conjuring trick there are things that I’ve seen done

33:09

That it seems to me to be god that’s got to be a miracle and yet you know it’s not

33:14

And so that there is a real problem there that that we are easily fooled um let’s take another

33:19

Question from a gentleman here very interesting

33:24

I was extremely amused when you described faith as a sort of brooking no no argument um this

33:31

University of course began uh with the study of theology most of

33:36

The people here would have been studying theology at the beginning of the university and indeed the
way in which it was

33:43

Taught was not professorial you didn’t have lectures mostly mostly you had discussions debates

33:50

People didn’t write monographs they collected discussions notes of discussions people disagreed

33:56

About their faith absolutely I mean everybody had a

34:01

Different opinion and everybody expressed it and everybody was heard the idea that so the question is

34:09

Um do you really think that you’re your view of faith brooking no argument

34:14

Measures up to really any experience of of how people think about their face you

34:19
Talked about the evidence that your wife loves you I think for most religious people the evidence that
there’s a god is rather

34:26

Like that well obviously I would be mad to suggest

34:31

That theologians don’t argue they argue all the time and always have they fight wars

34:37

Over their arguments so clearly they argue I’d say when I say brook no argument I don’t mean that they
don’t

34:42

Argue when you say that theologians um

34:48

Have have disputes and interesting discussions um I I take it that from your garb um you

34:54

Take what a position one way or the other on whether the transubstantiation um whether the bread
and wine really is

35:00

The body and blood of a first century jew or is merely symbolic

35:07

But what evidence you bring to bear on such an argument I cannot imagine it

35:14

Would not be a real argument at all it would be a false argument it would not not be an argument which
could be

35:20

Settled by by real evidence just deal with the point about the evidence level when you refer to

35:27

Love of your wife when you say that you’re that your wife loves you and you do you you’re getting
evidence from looks

35:32

And the looks in the eye and catches in the voice was the phrase that I actually used um
35:38

And the question has said that’s the way religious people feel about god yes they feel that about god but
there’s

35:45

No evidence that they’re getting any cues at all I mean they’re their god is an imaginary god inside

35:50

Themselves uh they feel that they’re getting little looks from the eyes of god and

35:55

Sounds from the voice of god but why should we believe them since we can’t see or hear any evidence
to that effect

36:03

Let’s take another question gentlemen here in the second row with regards to uh to religion you’ve

36:09

Given an example where the the islamic faith and the muslims basically they wrap themselves up in

36:14

Bombs because that’s what they believe in islamic faith but I disagree with you because there are more
than a billion muslims living in the world today

36:20

Who actually believe in the quran and the scripture which you said everybody started believing in the
scripture then that

36:26

Would be horrible but I I disagree disagree with you because more than a billion people billion muslims
believe that if you kill

36:31

One innocent person it’s as if as you’ve killed the entire humanity so today humanity is about seven
billion

36:37

People so more than a billion muslims do not strap themselves up and actually go and you know commit
two

36:42

Sides the problem with many scriptures and I think the quran is no exception is that you can find a verse
that says so
36:48

And you find another verse that says the opposite and so you have to you have to pick and choose I
mean is it not the case for example you always

36:54

Choose the bad ones well no I mean I I’m I’m suggesting that you shouldn’t be in a position of having to
choose I mean you shouldn’t

37:01

Base you’re you’re your life on on a holy book which has contradictory verses

37:06

Where you can choose one verse when you want to make one point and another verse when you want
to make make another point I mean isn’t it the

37:12

Case that that the penalty for apostasy is death you can’t take these things and just hold I could hold up
an example

37:18

Of we mentioned earlier sam harris has said there are some views that are so irrational people should
be put to death for them

37:25

Should I hold all atheist him of course I won’t hold him to them let me put it to you in is is the penalty
for apostasy death no

37:31

Good I’m delighted to hear that why didn’t the quran doesn’t say it is well then some islamic scholars do
okay

37:37

But that’s debate and discussion there’s arguments going on things take place ever centuries okay let’s
have an atheist make a point and join the debate

37:43

Lady there’s waving a hand actually in the quran mankind refers only to muslims and excludes infidels

37:49

Which is all the rest of us so that’s a small point but I really my question to professor dawkins

37:55

Is how does he feel about the encroachment of all religions extremists evangelist christians and a
38:02

Lot of muslims into the politics and everyday life

38:07

And how does he feel about uh a religion influence trying to influence politics

38:14

And and public you know how do you feel about religion influencing politics and public life people
should be free to to speak them

38:20

Their minds I mean I’m a great believer in in free speech and so members of parliament should speak
their minds and

38:25

If their minds are influenced by their their religion then that’s that’s fine what I would object to I think is
the

38:32

View that somehow religion has a privileged

38:38

Right to speak because it’s religion and I think you’ll probably agree with that as well if if you stand up in
parliament and

38:44

Make an excellent speech in favor of something which religion has a view on like

38:49

Abortion say if you make your points well and win the vote by making your points

38:54

Well that’s fine but what you shouldn’t be allowed to get away with is saying because it’s religion
therefore uh

39:02

This is what we should do lady there in the heskoff as a social scientist we sort of the

39:08

Model of the rational actor is somewhat discredited we don’t look at all actors at all times is acting

39:13
Rationally in fact we assume that they don’t but that was the prelude to my question my question was
really would you accept

39:20

That it’s not so much religion that causes conflict but sincere commitment to some belief

39:26

That you think is morally important and in that sense do we get rid of morality well I think I partly said
that when i

39:32

Said that in the great wars of the of the 20 th century these were driven by

39:38

Non-religious motivations but they were driven by my country right or wrong kind of

39:44

Patriotism um that’s a little bit different from morality we’re talking about at least it’s it’s not religious I
was interested in

39:50

What you said you in your preamble when you said that in I take it you’re a social scientist and you’re no
doubt right to suggest that

39:58

Since social scientists are studying the human animal um you notice that people actually don’t behave
rationally

40:04

Well unfortunately that’s true um but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t behave rationally just because
people don’t

40:10

Uh let’s take a question from an atheist or an agnostic gentleman they’re in the black jocket there three
rows down in the middle

40:17

I think when I when I’ve read your book which I thought also was excellent it became very apparent to
me that

40:23

Evolution nature has given the human species some very very powerful survival

40:30
Instincts we’re aggressive men want to spread their genes we want to gather as much resources

40:36

Together as we can to to help our genes continue and survive

40:42

And as a result of that there’s been a lot of very very dark episodes in our history the

40:48

Roman empire which was terribly oppressive hedonistic the vikings who stole

40:54

Raped pillaged the persians so on so forth do you not think that it was actually

41:01

The ideas of religion that took human the human race the human

41:07

Species from beyond these base survival instincts and started to give them a new

41:13

Paradigm for thinking which was not necessarily in the interests

41:19

Of their their the the instincts that they have for survival it’s perfectly true that uh that uh a

41:25

Sort of um selfish gene view of uh life which is what I’ve mostly mostly

41:32

Written about is a very unpleasant view of life and and if if you followed the the

41:39

Creed of the selfish gene literally and actually lived your life according to it it would be a very unpleasant
world in

41:45

Which to live it would be a sort of thatcherite

41:52

Work I mean I’ve I’ve often said that while I’m a passionate darwinian when it

41:59
Comes to explaining the way life is I’m a passionate anti-darwinian

42:04

When it comes to organizing our lives would the world be a better

42:10

Place if religion disappeared tomorrow uh yes it’s about all the good things we

42:15

Discussed do you recognize that but you’ll still have the nazi

42:22

Holocaust to communism you wouldn’t have the charities that’s fine you would have the charities but
but um

42:28

I mean it’s only your assumption but I want to finish it because because the question actually challenged
me by saying that it was religion

42:35

That helped us to escape from the unpleasantness of the of the selfish gene

42:40

Um I don’t actually think that is true I think that we have escaped by a long and slow

42:48

Process of civilization in which religion no doubt

42:53

Played a part if you look historically over the very long time spanish of history we’re getting better we’re

42:59

Getting nicer we’re getting more charitable uh we’re getting kinder getting less cruel

43:05

I wouldn’t give religion the credit for that I think I would give a much more complicated mixture of

43:11

Civilizing processes uh the the credit for it and religion is probably a part of that

43:16

Okay let’s take one last question uh gentlemen there in the blue jumper I’m going to make it to the last
question
43:22

Professor dawkins as an atheist is it not the case that you either believe

43:27

In the universe just popping into existence without a cause which is worse than hocus pocus or

43:34

In this thing called the multiverse which has as much independent empirical evidences as

43:41

Hades controlling the underworld right the the the phraseology you you use is is somewhat

43:47

Biased somewhat somewhat slanted um the uh popping into the universe

43:52

Popping into existence out of nothing the multiverse theory is used in this context

43:59

To explain the fact that some physicists believe that the physical constants

44:05

Are too finely adjusted it’s as though it’s a put up job it looks as though the physical constants are so
finely

44:11

Adjusted that if you change any one of them then the universe would collapse yes

44:17

Now the multiverse hypothesis is a kind of darwinian way of solving that problem

44:23

It says there are billions and billions of universes all of which have different settings of

44:31

Their fundamental constants a tiny minority of those billions and billions of universes

44:36

Have their constants set in such a way as to give rise to a universe which lasts long enough to give rise to

44:42

Galaxies stars planets chemistry and hence the process of evolution such but do you understand it
44:49

It does make me chuckle that you mocked me for believing in a prophet that flies into a heaven but you
believe in lots and lots of

44:54

Universes that you can’t show me prove to me testimony a lab as a basis of getting out of believing in a
god and a prophet

45:00

I’m astonished that you should compare the two I’m comparing the lack of evidence for

45:06

The two well you cannot use your own intuitive common sense

45:12

In order to diss physics I mean if if you could do that we wouldn’t need physicists I mean they they are
very

45:18

Sophisticated people they do mathematics but there are physicists like paul davis who have dissed the
multiverse series

45:23

Being nonsense well paul davies would rather take the view that there’s something mysterious in the
origin of the universe

45:29

And that’s another perfectly respectable physicist view as stephen weinberg the nobel

45:34

Prize-winning it’s respectable if a physicist holds a view about mystery in the universe but not if anyone
else holds it if we’re talking

45:41

About the origin of the universe that is a problem in physics yes let’s end with a couple of quick

45:46

Questions if as christopher hitchens the late christopher hitchens wrote religion is inerradicable and as
you put

45:52

It harder to get rid of than smallpox doesn’t this basically mean that
45:57

Whatever motivations you have no matter how passionately you’re driven and loved for the truth you
are essentially

46:03

Wasting your time I would never admit to wasting my time trying to propagate the truth and i

46:09

Think I can claim a modicum of success with the people that I’ve written read my books the people
who’ve

46:14

Attended my lectures it’s a doctrine of despair to say that we’re stuck with religion

46:20

For all eternity um the religions of ancient greece and ancient roman the vikings of all dead

46:26

Nobody believes in jupiter or thor anymore and I have great hopes that the same is going to be true of

46:32

The of the god of abraham and one last thing there’s a new book

46:37

Out from one of this country’s well-known philosophers called religion for atheists

46:43

Which makes the case that no matter how false religion is no matter how imaginary god may be there
are some

46:48

Lessons there are some institutions there are some values that atheists could usefully borrow I’ve heard
that argument but I’ve heard

46:54

People say that we that humans do need some sort of um rituals and they need some sort of um

47:01

Gathering places meeting places um I can sort of see that is not a thing that interests me very much

47:07

I don’t feel any great need for for uh for ritual I don’t feel any great need
47:12

To fill the alleged vacuum that will be left when religion goes I think there’s plenty to fill it already it’s
been a

47:19

Fantastic discussion it’s a pleasure to have you here on al jazeera thank you all to the audience here in

47:25

The oxford union chamber and thanks to you all at home for watching goodbye and dare I say god bless

47:49

You