MORTON FELDMAN (]
photo: Gene BagnatoMORTON FELDMAN
Morton Feldman was born on January 12, 1926, in
New York City. He studied piano with Madame Mau-
rina-Press, and went on (o study composition with
Wallingford Riegger and Stefan Wolpe. He currently
is Edgard Varose Professor at the State University
of New York at Buffalo,
Interacting with New York's abstract expression-
ist painters, as well as such composers as John Cage,
Earle Brown, and Christian Wolff, Feldman began
writing musi¢ that would, in his words, "project
sounds into time, free from a compositional thetor-
ic." In the early 1950s, he achieved these results
through his invention of graphic notation, which per~
mitted the performer freedoms in piteh and rhythm,
From this method he went on to a more conventional
form of notation, wherein piteh was determined but
time values were only broadly fixed. Throughout his
career, Feldman has also written traditionally notated
Scores! ‘These pieces belong to the same sound
world as his other works: ‘They avold systematic
compositional methods and employ soft dynamies and
subtle, undramatic gestures. Since the early 1970s,
he has worked exclusively in conventional notation.
‘The authors interviewed Morton Feldman at his
home in Buffalo on August 17, 1980. They were both
somewhat apprehensive due to his initial reservations,
about granting an interview. However, their fears
were instantly dispelled by his warmth and generosity.
His good will and expansiveness informed everything
he did: his conversation, his patience, his lack of
reserve, and his cooking.
Q:_ We've read that earlier pieces of yours, such as Extensi
violin and piano, employ the complete serialization of pitch,
namies, and even the secession of metronomie tempi, Is this accurate?
FELDMAN: That's wrong. I's the only piece where I ever used
a kind of metronome modulation, T must admit that it was the only
work I ever wrote where an idea from somebody else really in-
fluenced me. It was Milton Babbitt; the idea of the metronome
changes came from his Composition for Four Instruments--which
was written inthe late forties, I believe. I use it now sometimes
as a caching suggestion for my students when their work is rhyth-
ically somewhat boring, and they don't have the expertise for ac-
tually changing the rhythmic language of the piece--it looks funny to
them if the piece immediately changes rhythmically.
164
FELDMAN / 165
Maybe the style of the piece suggested total serialization because it
‘was out of the Webern atmosphere; very much so. But the piece
didn't use any system at all.
@: You've described your dislike of the sound of electronic musie,
likening it to “neon lights" and “plastic paint," saying that it's "too
identifiable."" Did you feel this way before cr after the composition
of your Intersection for magnetic tape in 1951? Would you char-
acterize that piece as sounding like that’?
FELDMAN: Have you ever tried to get a hold of that particular
composition? T have a copy, but I've never wanted it realized by
others. I'm sure they'll make it sound more interesting than the
piece should sound.
I don't want to be political about it, but I loathe the sound
of electronic music. I think it's perfectly fine as a teaching ve~
hhicle, if you don't have any money around for live performance,
‘You know how certain pieces of Beethoven's are now played only
‘on "Pops"? Well, electronic music started in universities; now
W's in the high schools; pretty soon it'll be a device in kindergarten,
You could spend a lot of time in a studio putting it all together.
And you're very fortunate for having something to do, I really’ think
you're very lucky to find something to do for an afternoon.
Q_ Did you approach that pieco as an obligation to investigate a
ew medium, or were you more excited about electronic music then
than you are’ now?
FELDMAN: Let's put it this way: One of the best definitions of
experimental music was given by John Cage. John says that ex-
perimental music is where the ouicome cannot be foreseen, Very
interesting observation. After my first adventure in electronic miu-
sic, its ouleome was foreseen.
Q:_IU's been suggested that works of yours that involve the decay
ff sounds were influenced by electronic works at that time, because
of their emphasis on the decay of sound,
FELDMAN: Absolutely no connection.
Q_ In the Columbia recording of your Piece for Four Pianos, you
participated in the performance. Do you remember if you listened
{o the other three pianists? Or did you try not to think about what
they were doing?166 / SOUNDPIECES
FELDMAN: It works better if you don't listen. 1 noticed that a
lot of people would listen and feel that they could come in at a
‘more effective time. But the spirit of the piece is not to make it
just something effective. You're just to listen (o the sounds and
play it as naturally and as beautifully as you can within your own
references. If you're listening to the other performers, then the
pioee tends also to become rhythmically conventional
Q: What do musicians find most problematic about your music?
FELDMAN: When you play an instrument, you're not only playing
the instrument; the instrument is playing you. There's a role to
play. And the problem I have with the performer is that my sense
of the instrument is not that role-playing aspect. By role-playing
mean the baggage one brings to performing by demonstrating. how
good the instrumentalist is. They're not interpreting musie; they're
interpreting the instrument, and then the music. When Helfetz
played Mozart, he was doing Mozart a favor. It was the violin he
was playing, and then Mozart.
Of the three types of notation you've used--graph, free duration,
fund precise notation--have you found tat one invariably receives
the poorest performance?
FELDMAN: I think that my earlier, more unconventional notation
drew performers who were attracted to the performance freedom
inherent to the music. However, with my precise music, the per-
formers are now more involved with me, which seems to annoy
them to death.
Q: Then performance problems for you have multiplied over the yoars?
FELDMAN: Recently, I went to a BBC studio recording of two
major works of mine” Luckily for the American conductor, a lot
of the performers for the BBC have continually played my music
tunder other conductors through the years. This conductor evident
ly looked at the score and thought that it was so simple, that he
came totally unprepared.
I don't even know if that's a serious problem now. The
question you ask would be legitimate for most, but not for me.
‘There's nothing wrong with your question. But half of my life was
‘spent being upset and concerned with this problem. And now I
think that if Milton Babbitt could say, “Who cares if they listen,”
my feeling is, "Who cares if they play it."
Everything that I'm going to say in this interview is not some~
FELDMAN / 167
thing that just came off the top of my head; it’s something that ve
been thinking about and living with for years and years and years,
‘The problem now is that all these things are evasive subterfuges
from sitting down and writing that piece of music. I don’t think
it's now a time for performance, anyway. 1 think it's now a time
for work and reflection, I think it's time for a lot of young eom=
posers and a lot of not too young composers to perhaps also stop
composing.
For me, a bad artist is an insane artist. And I think there
are too many Toonles writing music. And by loonies, 1 don't mean
"kinky avant-garde." T mean people who work comfortably, don't
worry, have no pressure. You know, they used to say that John
‘age was a dangerous influence; and ‘although he never at all said,
nything goes," I would say that there is an intellectual atmosphere
around in which considerably less “extreme” minds than John Cage
feel that anything goes. And it shows in the music. It's bad mi-
sie because it's delusionary.
Are you implying that certain compositional styles are more
pernicious than others?
FELDMAN: No. No, it's not a question of styles. What's compo-
sitional style? ‘That's a dangerous subject to begin with altogether.
‘The only style a composer is allowed is his own, If he doesn't
have one, he should get out of music. ee
I don’t even think that this is an elitist point of view. If
somebody's causing a lot of trouble and confusion in his mental
state as he's walking down the street, are you an elitist if perhaps
you suggest to the family that this person should be put away? You
know, there was a fad some years ago-it touched here, bul it was
very big in England--a very classy character: Laing. "Familiar
with Laing? "Three cheers for schizophrenia! ‘They're the normal
fones, and what is normal?” What's normal. [Il tell you what's
normal. Perhaps twenty-four people are going to be interviewed in
your book, right? What's normal would be if seventeen of them
‘would stop writing musie tomorrow. That's normal,
Q Ten years ago, you declined a teaching position, saying that
your idea of teaching wasn't what was happening in music depart-
ments. Is Buffalo & unique environment, or has there been @ real
‘change in academic attitudes toward music’?
FELDMAN: I think it's almost accopted at major universities that
when they bring in major people, those people are to teach the way
they feel it's best to teach. And they establish a certain poliey.
But there is a problem in teaching composition. It reminds me
‘of somebody I knew who was a damned good sculptor. At the time168 / SOUNDPIECES
he didn't have too much money and he took a job teaching young.
people seulplure. He spent all his time in just teaching them how
to hold a torch and how to take care of their materials.
‘The ideal student is the student who doesn't have to be taught,
|AIL you ean do is be sort of an instrumental coach with important
fnsights and suggestions. ‘The problem that 1 find with teaching (and
T would say that this probably holds true with any creative fleld) is
that when a young composer has very little equipment, there is a
fantastic vested interest in holding on to the little that he or she
has. They learn two steps, and their concerns are in doing an
exhibition dance with two steps
Q: You've said that you use whichever notational style that a par=
ticular work ealls for. But over the last ten years, your scores
have been fully notated.
FELDMAN: I have to interrupt you here. A lot of people feel
that they're not notated enough. I read a review of @ score the
other day: "Except for a few tenuto marks, not enough informa~
tion is given for performance."
Qo you think you've been writing fully notated seores in recent
years?
FELDMAN: Very few composers have the gift to write a notation
where the piece really plays itself. Mabler had it. Maybe the ex-
pression helped. But if you're doing Haydn or Mozart: "Am T do-
ing this too dry? Am I doing that a little too bright?" There are
problems.
@: Do musicians become indignant because they have to efface them=
selves in order to play your music?
FELDMAN: Everybody gets a little bit annoyed when they're
yolved with problem solving, especially when they don't know what
the problem really is and they don't know if they've solved it.
@: Have you just defined your situation as a composer? ‘Trying
to solve a problem without being sure what the problem is?
FELDMAN; You're absolutely right. I'm making a parallel to how
T work, I'm involved with "problem solving," but don't know what
the problem is, In other words, a piece starts to develop, and
problems arise. I don't begin with problems; if you begin with a
problem, you'll solve it.
FELDMAN / 169
‘Tho piece is like an operation. Everything is going along
OK, you're 2 good surgeon, and then problems happen. Pneumonia,
sets in, or you sew up the trumpet in the belly of the piece. All
kinds of problems develop.
Q:_ In light of the range of problems that can arise, do you still
feel that you'll use whichever notational style that might be neces
sary?
FELDMAN: No. Notation is an aspect of style. And I find that if
you use a certain type of notation, it cannot help but develop into
a certain style. And the style of my graph music was super for
the time it was written. At the time I wrote it, I didn't know that
it was going to be style. Now the question is, ‘should 1 continually
‘work in that area, that notational style, and perfect it and bring it
into high style? Which, in a sense, was what the post-aleatorie
period did with aleatori¢ music; they brought it into high style.
‘You have to understand that no matter what you're going to
do, it always leads to style. But precise notation slows it down a
itite bit. Just enough. "Like doing 55 on the highway. It slows
it down. And I like that slowing down aspect. It's involved more
‘with thought than ideas.
Q: Has this slowing down gone hand in hand with the increasing
Tength of your pieces?
FELDMAN: 1 would say that the one who best answered something
like this was Hemingway when he talked about the difference be-
tween typing and writing. I would say that the "ehanee” era was
typing. Journalistic. Headlines. If you don't like the word "jour-
nalistic," then I would say prose.
1 was talking to you about rugs before. What's interesting
about a rug is that the whole rug culture was derived from the tech-
nical limitation of what kind of knots were being used. Or lake a
look at that Jackson Pollock drawing; it's absolutely elegant. — And
T'm not saying that there is anything’ wrong with it when I say that
part of its elegance is part of the technique of how it was made.
He splattered the ink on the page in the way that only he could do,
land no one since could do with such an eye and with such elegance.
But the technique of how he did it developed the look or the style
of his work. ‘That is what notation is to composition. How you
notate determines more about the piece than any kind of system
using this or that. Of course, if you're into a certain type of sys~
tem, a certain type of tradition of how best to notate that system
does develop; that's true enough.
All I'm really saying, in a long-winded way, is that notation,
at least for me, determines’ the style of the piece,170 / SOUNDPIECES
Q: Did the time you spent away from precise notation affect your
use of it when you retumed to it?
FELDMAN: I wouldn't say that what T was doing was not precise.
It was as precise as Pollock.
L never really “returned” to traditional notation. If you ever
ook at my list of works, I always alternated between one and the
other.
Q: So you wouldn't think of the graph or free duration pieces as a
hiatus?
FELDMAN: I saw it very, very differently. I saw it like some-
ody does a sculpture and then does a painting. For me it was
very clear-cut that it was really another idiom with its own prob-
Jems and its own solutions. One also didn't feed the other, oF
help the other.
[But I did find things that I never expected. For example, 1
found that my most far-out notation repeated historical cliches in
performance more than my precise notation. Precise notation is
my handwriting, My imprecise notation was a kind of roving camera
‘that caught up very familiar images like a historical mirror. 1
don't want the mirror of history in my work. [ want it in my ed-
uueation, but I don’t want it in my work.
Q: Your work Rothko Chapel seems a definite break with what
you've earlier described as your compositional aim of creating a
minimum of contrast.
FELDMAN: It was a piece written for an occasion, and 1 think it's
fone of those pieces which I'll never write again. I felt that T had
to write something that I thought was appropriate, I enjoyed doing
a
‘There was a period--the Rothko Chapel, The Viola in My
Life, a few other pieces--when T was thinking ‘of Bob Rauschen=
Derg's photo montages. At that time, T would use a tune just the
‘way Bob would put a photo ona canvas, But I now feel that in
musie it doesn’t work the same way.
Q: ‘Throughout the ‘70s, your pieces have been getting onger and
longer. Had you wanted (o write lengthy pleces as far back as the
'508, but refrained from doing so because you thought you wouldn't
be able to get them performed?
FELDMAN / 171
FELDMAN: No. There are two types of long pieces that annoy
me: the epic--the padded, portentious piece--and the long process
piece. 1 think my tendeney now toward longer and longer pieces
is actually a tendency away from a piece geared for performance.
Psychologically it's not geared for performance. 1 also feel that
my plunge into the longer and longer pieces had a lot to do with
the change in my lfestyle.
‘The fact that I have more time to compose now means that
I'm asking myself different questions, Also, what does any artist
do when he doesn't have any problems? He’ looks for new one:
‘What began to interest me was what might happen in a very, very
long piece in one movement. Stravinsky is the last great move-
‘ment-form composer. Some things do become oulmeded, for what~
ever reason; and I feel the movement form is outmoded,
S0, as I go into that long piece, 1 come up against very in-
teresting problems. And the problems are not necessarily the
search for compositional solutions or devices for continuity. When
you're working on a very long piece, you eventually have to ask
the question: "Are there new forms?"
You also haye to develop your own paraphernalia to hold it
together, rather than maintain the conventional idea that what de-
velops might hold a piece together. That's what I meant earlier
by problem solving: To get through a big piece, you don't come
‘with any kind of prearranged schema; you just find ways to sur-
ive in this big piece. And the most important survival Kit 8 con-
Q:_ You mean your ability to concentrate on the materials you're
working on?
FELDMAN: Just concentrate on not making the lazy move. For
example, most composers are involved with the potential of the ma~
terials, ‘and they milk it; and they milk it ingeniously, I'm involved
in keeping the thing going, but not necessarily via its implications.
So, if you're not going to’ be involved with the implication of your
material, how do you keep it going?
@_Do you see a piece Like your recent String Quartet as a chal-
Ienge to other composers to write pieces that Fun Tonger than one
side of a record and still sustain interest and maintain musical in-
vention?
FELDMAN: I can only attempt to answer that question indirectly
Someone like Elliott Carter, for example, would feel that the mo-
‘ment is not important; it's the overall construction of the piece, I
agree with him on the overall construction of the piece--1 wouldn't172 / SOUNDPIECES
agree with him on what he would think makes for this overall con-
struction of the piece--but I feel that the moment, the rightness of
the moment, even though it might not make sense’ in terms of its
cause and effect, is very important. ‘There's a remark of Giaco-
metti; He said he wants to make his sculpture so that if the tini-
fest fragment was found, it would be complete in itself in such a
‘way that one almost might be able to reconstruct it.
‘The piece that I'm writing now is a piece that is involved
‘with fragments of material; just the presentation of fragments of
material. There's no implication of the material. But that's anoth-
er story. I'm not interested in the aspect of completing, or satis
fying a need to make what we think is that terrific, integrated plece
of music. I agree with Kafka: We already know everything. So
there's no need for me to finish the piece in terms of anyone's ex-
pectations, which include my own,
@: You mean that there's no reason for you to put something in
an areh form because we know about arches already?
FELDMAN: Most concepts of form that one can articulate about
appear to be involved with a series of chronological insights that
succeed in only a relatively short work. Most musical forms are
really only "short stories" which begin, develop, and end.
With the violin concerto 1 wrote recently (it's only an hour
and a half), I wrote a "row for the moment." I spent seven hours
‘working on’a twelve-tone row that I use only for three measures of
the piece. And then the piece goes on, and about ten pages later,
T felt that what 1 wanted was to have a’ ttle frame, and inside the
frame I wanted some beautiful symmetry. Symmetry isn't my bag,
Dut I needed some beautiful symmetry at that moment. I then quote
a row of Webern that is a prototype of perfect symmetry. (t's a
famous row.) 1 just quote it, Like someone will quote a tune; but
T only quoted it for its symmetry. 1 also used it as a kind of
quasi-cidenza for the soloist. And then I just went on with the
piece.
‘Then 1 bad another idea, AN right, I'm not interested in
symmetry, so I quote Webern. I'm also not at all interested in
intervallie relationships. But'I felt the piece needed some “intor-
vallic logic.” 80 I quoie another row of Webern's. Actually, with~
out that moment of symmetry, without that other moment of Tuctd
intervallie relationships, the piece would have lost a Tot. In other
words, in writing a long piece, 1 would make curious moves but
fonly for the moment. Decisions that I would never think of, say,
in composing @ tweniy-minute composition. You want a piece to be
logical. Well, you're not going to sit down and have a ten-course
meal of logic;” you're satisfied with just an hors d'oeuvre a little
logical hors d'oeuvre served to you by a famous waiter! You want
a plece to be beautiful. OK, give them a moment of beauty--how
FELDMAN / 173,
much more do you need? So what happens in a long piece is that
sooner or later you go through the whole parameter of possibilities,
and everybody's going to get something out of it, I'm sure, ‘The
form of a long piece is more like a novel--there's plenty of time
for everything.
In Rothko Chapel, I felt the piece needed a tune, so instead
of writing a tune, T took a tune I wrote when I was 15, That's the
photograph aspect. And even Webern is @ photograph: an old, torn
photograph of interval relationships; an old, brown, dirty photograph
of symmetry!
Q: All we've beon able to read about your studies with Stefan
Wolpe was that the two of you argued all the time.
FELDMAN: I'm very sorry about that; Stefan was hurt when he
read that, We talked a lot--that's about all T really meant.
Wolpe got a very bad deal. I would say that Wolpe's bad
deal was very much like the relationship of Léger to the Cubists.
‘They would say, "What the hell is he? Is he 2 Cubist, isn't ho a
Cubist?” And yet Leger was a fantastic painter, and since there
re many more fantastic painters than there are’ composers, he
had his day in court and he won his case. But if we had a whole
Dbuneh of intelligent people around, they would realize, "Oh, yeah,
Wolpe, yeah, Leger, yeah! He lias this special flavor, yeah, he
doesn't have’ to be like..." Understand?
His string quartet's a very beautiful piece. He had this
genius for writing beautiful music that wasn't beautiful--very hard
todo, Like Léger.
Q: You've complained that in the last twenty-five years, there
have been no composers who have really shook up anyone. Do
you think that the music of Steve Reich or Philip Glass represents
a new trend? Is it too popular with audiences to really shake them
up?
FELDMAN: In some ways the message 1s a little shocking in the
Reich phenomenon. And thal's what makes it interesting. That's
‘what I'm interested in; very strong alternatives. I'm already in
my mid-fifties, I'm supposed to have a developed language, and) if
you think T can sit down and write a piece and not be worried about
Steve Reich, John Cage, Pierre Boulez, and Xenakis, you're nuts,
[worry about these people. I worry about strong alternatives.
‘And sometimes, some people have something to worry about.
Brahms had something to worry about with Wagner. It is a con-
test. And I don't know if most of your readers know this=-1 don't
feven know if the music lovers at large know it--but Wagner wo114 / SOUNDPIECES
Brahms lost. Of course, he didn't lose if you're lying on a blanket
in Tanglewood and you hear the opening of his D. Major Symphony.
But he lost, He lost like Ted Kennedy lost, with everybody cheer-
ing.
Q: A not uncommon critical reaetion to your music is, "I's a
Deautiful music that shows us no future." Does that comment mean
anything to you? Are you concerned with the future of music in
general, or of your music in particular? Do you believe that other
composers will learn from you and that you'll thereby win, just as
‘Wagner won?
FELDMAN: For any music's future, you don't go to the devices,
you don't go to the procedures, you ‘go to the attitude, And you
o not find your own attitude; that's what you inherit. f'm not my
‘own man. I'm a compilation of all the important people in my life.
Lonce had a seven-hour conversation with Boulez; unknown to him,
affected my Life. I admire his attitude. Var8se's attitude.
Wolpe's altitude. Cage's attitude, I spent one afternoon with Bec-
ott; it will be with me forever. Not his work; not his commit-
‘ment; not his marvelous face, but his attitude,
CATALOG OF COMPOSITIONS
1947 Journey to the End of the Night for so-
“prano, flute, clarinet, bass clarinet,
‘and bassoon CF Peters,
11950 Mlusions for piano New Music
1950 Two Tilermissions for piano CF Peters
1850 Piece for Violin and Piano CF Peters
1950 Projection 1 for cello CF Peters
1951 Projection for violin, cello, ute,
EAS pao CF Peters
1051 Projection 3 for two pianos CF Peters
1051 Projection-4 for violin and piano CF Peters
1051 Projection 5 for three cellos, three
flutes, trumpet, and two pidnos CF Peters
1951 Intersection 1 for large orchestra CF Peters
10951 Structures for string quartet CF Peters
1951 Four Songs to e.e. cummings for so-
iaprme, ells, candipieasy CF Peters
1051 Film Music for Jackson Pollock us
1051 Intersection for magnetic tape CF Peters
1051 ‘Marginal Intersection for orchestra CF Peters
1951 Iniersection 2 for piano CF Peters
1951 Extensions 1 for violin and piano CF Peters
1952 Extensions 3 for piano CF Peters
1952 Inlermission § for piano CF Peters
1952
1953,
1953,
1953
1953,
1953
1954
1954
1955,
1956
1956
1956
1956
1957
1957
1957
1958
1958
1958.
1059
1059
1960
1960
1960
1961
1961
1961
1961
1961
1961
1961
1962
1962
1962
1065
1063
1065,
1068
1963,
FELDMAN / 175
Piano Piece
Intersection 3 for piano
Extensions 4 for three pianos
Intermission 6 for one or two pianos
Intersection 4 for cello
‘Three Pieces for Plano
‘Two Pleces for Two Planos
Piano Piece
Piano Piece
Pano Piece
‘Three Picces for String Quartet
‘Two Pieces for Six Instruments
Piece for Four Pianos
Piano ‘Three Hands
‘Two Pianos
‘Plano Four Hands
‘Two Instruments Tor horn and cello
Ixion for chamber ensemble or two
~Disinos
Last Pieces for piano
‘Ailanlis for chamber orchestra
Durations 2 for cello and piano
Durations T for violin, cello, alto flute,
and piano
‘The Swallows of Salangan for SATB and
Uginuber eteenible
Durations $ for violin, tuba, and piano
Durations for violin, cello, and vibra-
phone
Out of "Last Pieces" for orchestra
Two Pieces for Clarinet and string
‘Quartet
Durations 5 for violin, cello, horn,
‘chimes, and piano/celesta
Intervals ‘for bass-baritone, cello,
trombone, vibraphone, and per-
‘The Straits of Magellan for seven in-
struments
For Franz Kline for soprano, violin,
“cello, horn, chimes, and piano
Structures for orchestra
‘The O'Hara Songs for bass-baritone,
voli, viola, cello, chimes, and
piano
iano Piece
‘Vertical Thoughts 1 for two pianos
Vertical Thoughts-2 for violin and piano
Vertical "Thoughts $ for soprano and
“chamber ensemble
Vertical Thoughts 4 for piano
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