> Geometric Home AboutUs» Courses» —Instructars» Resources» Consulting» What Is GD&T?» Position with Only One Datum? Posted by John-Paul Belanger on May 18, 2010 in GD&T Tips | 58 comments This time around, I'd like to present another “pet peeve" of mine, atleast in the world of GDB. I involves using the position symbol when the only quality being controlled is perpendiculariy, This is very common — it stems from some subconscious notion that if GD&L is going to be Virtual training vs. In-person used on a hole, i's got to be the “true position” symbol. NO! training? Consider the following example. There is a position tolerance applied to the large hole on the left, and the datum being referenced is A. Projected Tolerance Zone: Equivalent to Tightening the Zone? ca i The New ASME 14.5-2018 Standard ‘Common Dimensioning Symbol Errors Words Are Important But let's go to the standard and examine how the geometric control called “position” should be used: ASME Y14.5-2009 (and prior editions) state that position’s main job is to control location — meaning that it involves a distance — and perpendicularity often comes along as How Literally Should We Take part of that position control the GD&I Standard? ‘Another New Symbol in GD&T Is There Always a Right vs. Wrong Way in GD&T? Since the large hole given above is already distanced from the edges by plus/minus dimensions, the geometric tolerancing has nothing to do with location. The only relationship that the large hole has with datum A is one of orientation. Therefore, an orientation symbol must be used: ‘Select Month) Notice the perpendicularity symbol. This is the correct way to identify this hole, since the hole tself now becomes the datum feature for other features to locate back to. 2009 ASME standard That said, there are no GD&T police that will haul you to jallifyou insist on using the position symbol. Sut recall that the purpose of geometric tolerancing isto use a standardized 2018 ASME standardlanguage to express the design requirements. So it's best to stick with the proper terms and symbols if you want to minimize confusion when expressing your requirements! One final footnote — there are times when a position tolerance may reference only one, perpendicular datum: Ifa pattern of features (two or more) are being positioned with one feature control frame, then a single datum plane is alowed (because there Is the location between the two features that position controls). And another example is that of coaxial features; we may have one diameter positioned to another diameter, and this “coaxiality”is indeed a location control. 58 Comments bjy July 27, 2010 Finally! someone who knows what he's talking about when ft comes to GD &T. | am so sick & tired of engineers using it incorrectly and then using their findings as the basis of rejecting parts Reply PGB April 6, 2016 Sorry but GD&Tis a language and it has rules. We spell peace and plece different because they mean something different. you really knew GD&T you would know the hole needs a basic tolerance and jere for has to have a positional. Basics are used when dimensioning to and from theoretical axis, planes, and points. You are probably one of those whe thinks you can true position a point Ifyou chose to use the langue then use it the way it says to. Perpendicularity does not control position. Yes they look to be the ‘same but they are not. We are told true position cover location and perpendicularity does not. Sorry ike peace and piece when we talk it does not matter but you cannot say the person knows how to spell. fell perpendicularity is a modifier. |want a hole located within .010 but it needs to be perpendicular within .005. Stop being ignorant of langue and learn it Reply John-Paul Belanger April 6, 2016 Hello PGB — rd have to gently say that you're barking up the wrong tree — a tree thats not even there, my friend You are adamant that “perpendicularty does not control position.” | certainly agree with you! But nowhere did the article claim that perpendicularity controls position, There was absolutely no attempt on the second {drawing to use GD&T to control the location of the hole. Here's the key: that left-hand hole creates a datum. So) Wherever that hole is, its position simply is. (You seem to think that every hole has to have a position cert ication in GD&T GD&T questions GD&T Tips {GD&T Training Options Tolerance Stacks Uncategorized Links GD8T Wikipedia Definitiontolerance. That's not true.) Now, for a complete definition of the part, a profile tolerance might be added to the outside edges, related back to datums A and B by basic dims, Then we'd stil have no location tolerance for the large hole, but everything else would be toleranced relative to the hole, So Il simply reiterate that the only point ofthe article was that position is not to be used unless it involves an element of location. Thanks for reading the blog! Reply STEVE September 18, 2019 @PGB: WRONG! Reply JEW October 17,2019 Thank you for making me laugh, PGB. | enjoyed the irony of ranting about language and then saying tangue’ Reply Antonio $ July 8, 2017 tim with you bro, tired of seeing this issue with different customers. Reply Salazar Guerrero October 21, 2020 Me too, in fact that’s the reason I'm here now. Reply Dale January 3, 201 | am relativly ‘new’ the the world of GD&T. | use a enc controlled CMM and two different manual CMMs, with with enc and manual CMMs having different software. |run into these type of things on print all the time and the people! report to can't understand why my software will nt report the things being specified on the prints. By the way, how do you do true position of a hole with no datum specified? Reply John-Paul Belanger january 4, 2012 ‘The only way to use position tolerancing with no datum references is if there are two or more holes involved in the same callout. Then I suppose its possible: each hole simply becomes a datum for the other. The only example of this shown in the official D&T standard is for coaxial (n-ne) holes. In that case, they don't leven need to be perpendicular to anything; the only thing desired is to keepthem in line with each other. On your CMM, it wouldn't matter which hole you zero out on first. Reply Dave Zinn February 16,2012 ‘A pet peeve of mine is when the (I think) uninformed refer to the position symbol as “true position.” Am | correct in asserting that there is a concept of "true position” as mentioned in 14.5 and a “position symbol?" Reply John-Paul Belanger March 13, 2012 Hi ave .. yes, youve naled it. The standard calls the symbol iself“position.” believe the symbol was at one time called “rue position,” but thats been several decades! However, the term “true position” stil has meaning. [cis the theoretically perfect location that is desired, The “position” symbol then tells us how far from true position we may stray. Its not a huge deal, but yes, this isthe idea that you were thinking of. Reply Steve Beals March 27,2012 THANKS! But | have to add that | dont care if you refrence 15 datums, or a pattern. Say ‘what you mean and mean what you say. Design engineers should use the orientation callout that makes proper sense for manufacturablilty. In this and ‘many cases :, PLEASE USE IT! or LEAVE IT OFF THE PRINT! Great article. Reply vale May 4, 2017 |lam also new to this type of work, and I cant seem to understand how an Engineer with all there years of study have not managed to stumble upon and learn some GOnT seeing as they use it on there prints. the intention behind GOnT was so that everyone could have a similar language no matter ifyou spoke mandarin or English we could all read a print using GDnT and understand what the creators Intention was, ‘So why the fff don’t engineers know this? Reply Dave Zinn April 24,2018 "the intention behind GDnT was so that everyone could have a similar language no matter if you spoke‘mandarin or English we could all read a print using GDnT and understand what the creators intention was, | think the intention of GD& is actually for people who speak the same language to understand the design Intent, and be able to reject or accept a work piece. If1 cannot understand Mandarin, no amount of GO&T is _going to help to fully understand a drawing done in Mandarin. Reply Engineer_|_come_in_ peace October 20, 2021 Because unfortunately many engineers ifnot most are not required to take a GOT course in college and therefore learn on the job from people who also weren't required to and learning from legacy prints of parts that have been made for decades accurately despite having the GOT equivalent of rampant missprellings (yes that was on purpose). Reply vinoth July 14, 2012 ‘for diameter 5.6 you have given position tolerance 0.8 relative to datum Aand B.What's the role for datum A? From where you take reference for datum A to control the position tolerance. Because the hole and datum are in same plane. Please help me to clarify Reply John-Paul Belanger july 15, 2012 Vinoth — Datum A has two roles. First, it tells everyone that before we lock onto the axis of the large hole (daturn 8), we must fist stabilize the part on that back face, Recall that datums tellus how to “grab onto” the part for fxturing, etc. So even if datum A were to play no quantitative roe, It's stil telling us to keep the part primarily fat against that surface before locking onto 8. Think of a part where datum feature Bis slightly angled: we want to stay flat on A But there is another role for datum B: it controls the perpendicularity of the 5.6 hole, although only in the left-right direction. ifthat hole tits, that is another way to use up the position tolerance. Reply Daniel Smith February 13, 2018 vvinoth is making a good point. Datum A controls the orientation of ‘he part and the holes must be perpendicular to A. The entrance to the hole could be spot on. The position errar at the top is zero. However, because of the orientation of the hole’s axis, the end result ofthe position would have to be OOT because of the ssquareness or orientation to A. So, like so many, | don't like the original position call-out, but its proper in my opinion,Reply John-Paul Belanger February 13, 2018 Vinoth asked why datum A was referenced in the callout that used two datums; I think he was OK with datum Bilocation) but struggling with the purpose of keeping A in there | agree with your premise that orientation is being. controlled in both drawings. Sut here's the difference: In the first drawing, orientation is the only thing being, controlled by GD&T for the lefthand hole. Yet by definition position is a location control (which happens to bring orientation along with it) So the thinking is that if position is not even doing its ‘most basic job, then it can't be used. Reply Luis April 7, 2018 Hi, just started learning about GD&T. My biggest issue right now is understanding why some features, such as a hole, in one example will have 3 reference datums, and then in another example a hole will only use 2 or I reference datums. For instance, Inthe 5.6 diameter hole in the above example there is only two reference datums. Why is there not a third C datum? Is it because, in the function of that part, the twa holes do not have to be aligned vertically as long as it falls within the +/- tolerence? 1d really appreciate some tips on selecting the adequate number of reference datums Reply John-Paul Belanger April 9, 2018 You are presty much correct We only reference the number cf datums needed to control whats desired for that feature. n the example above, the 5.6 hole only needs to be controlled for position in the straight-across distance (horizontal) from the larger hole In general, think of it this way: There are six degrees of freedom, Some GD&T callouts need to have all six DOFconstrained for proper function. But it's fine to leave some DOF unconstrained ift doesn’t hamper the function of the part. Michael May August 13,2012 [ASME Y14.5.1M-1994 Supports not using position on a secondary datum that is a feature of size. We should always remember the mathmatical definitions when dealing with features as datums, Use of position in the example is wrong and not allowed based on the standards. Reply Rikk Masters December 5, 2013 ‘What happens in the same case...when a hole is held positionally back to a single datum feature that happens to be...ESl...A CYLINDERI! Reply John-Paul Belanger December 5, 2013 Yes, Rikk, There are times when a single datum suffices. But the post is dealing with cases where the only quality that ends up being controlled is perpendicularity, as mentioned in the first paragraph. So even if that datum feature is a cylinder, iFthere's no distance involved then perpendicularity i the symbol to use, Reply Rikk Masters December 5, 2013 Sorry..'ve been searching for an answer to my question and every which way | put in my question it keeps directing me here. My situation isa bit differene than the post..yes..as it involves a hole being held positionally (reference control frame references only one datum)..back to a cylinder (as datum) that is neither coaxial to the hole nor parallel..cylinder axis runs in X..hole axis isin Z..again sorty..thanks for your time, Reply Jaxon Holden july 14, 2017 The cylinders axis would control the spatial orientation and zero point for ¥ and , though ¥ and Z would stil be able to frely rotate about axis X, Therefore, you would use perpendicularity to control the orientation ofthe hole's axis with respect to Datum Axis The hole’ axis could stl freely rotate about X, but could net lean teward/away from the axis in a manner which skews the basic 90° angle. So it would be perpendicularty, but only in one axis () Reply Jerry August 23, 2014 ‘Why is the hole true position to the Face (daturn) A?Reply John-Paul Belanger August 23, 2014 i Jerry — if you're asking about the difference between the two pictures shown above, the symbol controlling the hole is different. (in an earlier version of this post we had the symbols reversed, but now the graphics have been fixed, Maybe that's what you are referring to.) But in general, when a datum is identified on a print, its good design practice to use GD&T to relate it back to the previous datums. So the designer is correct in relating the hole back to datum A (the face), but the only relationship that the hole has to the face is the quality of perpendicularity. So you are right — the hole should not be called out for true position to A. The second picture is showing the correct symbol to Reply Shawn Fineout May 29, 2075 If datum Bis simply @perpendiculerity, which | agree with, How does that stop any rotation inthe part and allow those basic dimensions to drive a true position in the smaller hole? It looks to me like if you are using 8 as a secondary datum, you are sl leaving a clocking feature out and not flly constraining for that second smaller hole Reply John-Paul Belanger Vay 29, 2015 That's true for the GD&T part of this drawing, but if we look at the big picture its not entirely true. The only relationship being established between the two holes by GD&T isa straight-shot, distance, The outside edges of the rectangular part are not part of the datum system, which is what youve noticed! In other words, the left-hand hole could be a litte up and the right-hand hole could be a litle down, But. the position callout could be met perfectly. This, might not be wise, but itis legal The only thing 1at controls that rotation aspect is that both holes have to be within 10+ 0.5 from the bottom edge, Again, perhaps it's not wise to mix this type of tolerancing with GD&T, but the main Idea about the datum and position is still preserved, Reply ZN) Chuck january 4, 2017 fh Well... you have to give the machinist the general Vcinity of the left hole. How else would you convey that ther than, the dimension scheme you gave in this example? Replyash July 20, 2015 Datum C is not required in above case? Datum B is # hole, part may stillrotate ‘with respect to Datum B hole axis. Reply John-Paul Belanger july 23, 2015 Right — a tertiary datum is not needed, The given tolerancing only locates the small hole from the large hole in the horizontal direction. ‘The dimension on the let side (10 mm) controls the vertical direction. (This may not be the best way to control the location of the small hole, but its enough to ilustrate the point ofthe article) Thanks for reading! Reply Richard October 12, 2015 hi, Is It possible to use the positioning tolerance for surfaces? (Like: “These surfaces in line within 0.007) thanks, Richard Reply John-Paul Belanger October 12, 2015 ‘According to the ASME standard for GD&T, the answer would be no. (Position is only to be used on a feature of size; profile ofa surface ‘would be used to accomplish your need.) But according to the ISO rules for GD&T (GPS), yes, position can be used on surfaces, So the answer depends on which system is being imposed on the drawing! Reply Nicholaus Meyers Novernber 13, 2015 {sil have a problem with this drawing, Must not the dimensions tothe center of| the hole axis be basic dimensions and the surfaces from which itis being located be datums? Reply John-Paul Belanger November 14, 2015 Hi Nicholaus... the distance to the datum(s) must indeed be basic, and in this case that rule is being followed. For the position tolerance on the small hole, notice that there are just two datums referenced. The basic dimension relating that hole to datum Ais an implied basic of 90° — per paragraph 1.4() of the Y145 standard ‘And the basic dimension relating that hole to datum Bis given as 42, ‘Your question then seems to be why an edge of the part are not a datum, Wel, in this case it may only be desired to control thedistance between the holes, not the distance from an edge. That is perfectly lega i's not always required to nail down the hole in every possible direction. (The drawing may be incomplete, but the GD&T as given is certainly legal.) Also see my reply to Ash above... that was a similar question. Thanks for reading the blog! Reply Lawrence A November 25, 2015 HiJohn, ‘Thanks for this post, question for you... what if| add another small hale (with the same diameter) 42 units to the right & 10 units below (the existing small hole), can iadd basic 84 & basic 10 units dimensions (from the big hole) and then add “2x” before the 5.6 ~ 6.0 diameter dim. Is that legal way to control the location of the new hole? and lastly what if | want to control the pattern of the holes can ‘add another location tolerance frame below the existing one and add tolerance say dia. 0.4 ref datum to "A"? Reply John-Paul Belanger November 25, 2015 For the frst part of your question..yes, you can add those additional basic dims to lay out anew hole tothe right (and downward), and then place 2x" before the holes’ diameter. (An aside: based on the looks of this pat, that new hole would be off the part! But get the generalidea of your question.) However, | would probably then add a diameter symbol before the 0.8 in the feature contro frame. This is because you're no longer just doing a straight shot from big hole to small hole; youre now controlling several holes, (Think about the datums: you set the part down on A and then plug into datum feature B, The part can stil rotate freely, but you are establishing a relationship among the three holes and that's a bit more that a straight-across distance.) [And yes to your last question also, An additional position tolerance that references datum A only would have the effect of tightening, down the hole-to-hole distance of those two (and their perpendicularity to A, of course) Reply Lawrence A November 25, 2015 Thanks a lot john, | agree, there should be a diameter symbol before the 0.8 positional tolerance and as well {as on the 0.4 for the pattern... Reply Gary B December 15, 2015 Stop all the confusion by creating a stable datum reference frame, Visualise it ike this:- Datum A (the fat surface) Datum B (a pin perpendicular to A, probably at virtual condition) and Datum € a pin perpendicular to A and pitched basically to 8, again probably at virtual condition). Then control the size, location andorientation of the outside vertical surfaces by using an all-round profile of @ surface call out. Reply John-Paul Belanger December 15, 2075 Gary — agree, But natice that you used the key word when describing datum feature 8 itis perpendicular, and nothing else. ‘That is why the main point of the article was to get people to stop. using the position symbol when the only thing you can say about 8 (ia this case is that i's perpendicular. Then fora fully detalles print profile could be used forthe perimeter, etc. Reply Greg Mross August 5, 2016 So if this were a mounting block attached to another part, we could then label the smaller hole datum C and then reference datums A, 8, and C for features in the assembly, right? have a similar situation but with both holes the same diameter. | was going to label datums A, 8, and C just like you see here, but the engineer say he wants to call the left hole B, and then create a basic dimension that is tangent to the outside of both holes and call that datum C. Claims he needs an equalizing datum for this to work. | have never, ever seen anything like this! You always reference an axis for hole location, not tangency to the hole. Every GD&T guy at works says this is crazy, but he claims his s the only way to do it. Thoughts? Reply John-Paul Belanger August 5, 2016 Hmmm... too have never seen anything like that. What you wanted t0 do is much more common. In some industries they would use the terminology "é-way daturn" for that datum B hole, and then "2-way datum" for the datum C hole, because its only ob is to stop up/down rotation, What your colleague wants to do might be possible, But to do that he'd have to use what we call daturn targets: use a couple of targets fon the top wall of each hole (such as 81 and 82) to create an imaginary line at those two tangent targets. He'd still need a datum C to control lefright movement of the block, Reply Greg Mross August 5, 2076 It isjust a mounting bracket for a component that bolts into a frame. | said it would be even easier now to just group both holes together as datum B and just reference datums A and B for other features, |have no idea why you would reference the outside tangencies of hole and call that datum C. Fist time in 30 years of GDBT | ever saw someone do that. ReplyLand Steven Bizzarro August 29, 20'6 It sounds a bit like using the flats on a horizontal slot to control the rotation of the part and become datum c. In ‘my 30+ years of experience, Ive never seen hole tangencies utilized as a means of defining a datum. You can always ask him to show you what he's trying to convey and more importantly how he's going to fixture itfor quality inspection. Reply Seb November 30, 2017 ‘Thank you for this article! Reply John (One item of interest - Ifthe hole defined as datum B is close fit and | want to nuary 10, 2018 control perpendicularity but allow this limit to float based on the size of the 9.0 9.8 diameter | would use Position tolerance with a MMC modifier. So in this case if | wanted to allow a larger perpendicularity error than 0.8 with a larger hole | ‘would have to use position tolerance as Perpendicularity does not allow for a MMC modifier. | have done this with very close clearance fits for part position control to allow shop to choose how they want to split up tolerance between hole diameter and perpendicularity. | think | am doing this correctly. In some cases | do this at zero true position with MMC modifier applied. Reply ry John-Paul Belanger January 10, 2018 HiJohn, Even in your case you should still use perpendicularty rather than position. You wrote that “perpendicularity does not allow for a MMIC modifier.” But it does allow for it. Ifyou have access to the ¥14.5 standard, check out Figs, 6-13 and 6-14, which use the MMC ‘modifier for perp. (But | do lke your idea of using zero at MMC!) The general rule is that the position symbol should only be used when there is an element of location involved. Otherwise that symbol is missing one of its constitutive elements and we should use a lower-order symbol (perpendicularity) Reply Subbu March 6, 2018 Dear john, ‘Whether the perpendicularity has a basic dimension or ordinate dimension... If both are there which is sufficient ? Reply Dougie Hynd May 17, 2018Ihave a problem with position tolerance, we have a TEE piece with positional tolerance on the slots of both legs of the tee, will the main thru leg be positional or perpendicular to the branch of the tee? Reply John-Paul Belanger Vay 18, 2018 tim having a little trouble visualizing the situation, but perhaps this, wil help..Whenever a position tolerance is invoked, it also includes an aspect of orientation. So depending on which datums are being referenced, position might be doing both position and perpendicularity to the branch of the tee. Reply Dan April 7, 2020 | have run into this issue on one of our master prints, it large center cylinder with 7 bolt holes around the center cylinder, and the position is called out only to the face, ust below the DRF there is another box with .750" projected tolerance zone, are these 2 connected? or is this supposed to be perp Ike in the article? Reply John-Paul Belanger April 7, 2020 Hi Dan — the GD&T you describe does indeed control perpendicularity to the face, but it's a litle different than the picture given above, Two reasons it's different: First..your example is tagged to a group (oF 7 holes, 50 it also serves to control the spacing of the 7 holes to each other (which isa valid example of having only the one datum). Second, because ofthe projected tolerance zone, the perpendicularity aspect ofthe position callout is “projected” so the math works out differently (we'd have to compare the depth of the 7 holes with the .750 projection to see how much more stringent ii), ‘The bottom line — in your example they used to the correct symbol Of position since there is some element of location involved. Reply Andy September 1, 2021 ‘This article is very helpful regarding the single datum position callout on a single hole, but | am still confused as to how it works ifthe callout applies to multiple holes. For example, | have a print that has a single position callout applied to 3 holes. The datum in the callout is (theoretically) perpendicular to all3 holes. You said that the hole positions are controlled by their locations relative to each other, and the x/y distances between all the holes are given as basic dimensions con the print, but how do you actually report the position of each hole? Ifthe locations are all relative to one another, | would think you would have to pick a random hole as a sort of temporary datum to compare the other holes to, but ‘measuring the position of hole 1 relative to hole 2 yields a different result than ‘measuring hole 1 relative to hole 3. ReplyJohn-Paul Belanger September 1, 2021 Thatis a great question, and i's one of those “deep-dlve" topics that youive stumbled upon. The short answer is that a best, iterative analysis. n other words, while you could pick @ random hele as a temporary datum, you may have to circle back to that hole and adjust its own position in order to “make room” for the other holes in the pat would have to be The old-school way is to sketch tolerance circles on a transparency, and overlay that onto some dots that represent the actual hole centers. Then move the transparency around until all dots somehow fit in the tolerance circles. (CMM software would have to do the same thing but in a mathematical way.) For a better answer, check out this discussion forum where that topic came up (good statements given there by posters Pauljackson and axym), Reply Trevor September 23, 2021 | recently came across a print with a position control referencing only one (planar) datum, The considered feature was a bore on the side of the part and the datum was on the bottom face, perpendicular to the face where the considered feature lies | believe that this is not allowed and that perpendicularity would be more appropriate here. This issue was flagged when the measurement software reported zero for the position measurement. Id be interested in your thoughts here. Reply John-Paul Belanger September 24, 2021 (ello Trevor, From your description there is no problem at all, because the lone datum being referenced is not perpendicular to the bore in question, The relationship between the hole and the datum involves a distance, so it satisfies the requirements of the position symbol. The thrust of this article was about referencing a lone datum that is perpendicular to a bore. Reply Submit a Comment Your email address will nat be published, Required fields are marked * Comment.vst web ° Submit © Geometric Learning Systems 248.652.1397 Home ContactUs GD&TBlog Request a Quote Site Index