hello chick hello

start in a minute

so I are able to hear us

equal to here is

try your own mute you please unmute

yourself

stop condition

thing on

let me remind you

so have you uh laptop

can you hear me

yes yes we can hear you now okay okay so

you would you like to present from your

screen or should I present from here

um

uh let me just share then huh

is my screen visible

yes yes it is it is coming in

you can also put it as a screen full

screen mode yes I'm just doing that

okay yeah it is it is uh it is looking

good

so uh we'll start with your introduction

so uh request Richard to start with the

introduction

am I visible good afternoon everyone

welcome to the second session of the

industry day of IIT jodhpur 2023 it is

my honor and pleasure to welcome you

back and uh this is the session on

dependable and responsible AI

as our esteemed speakers have in the

morning itself emphasize the need for

building responsible undependable

systems which are GPT dolly wally all

those tools that are coming in and kind

of uh bringing in a lot of new things in

our lives and learnings so um this is a

very important session considering all

of the all of those perspectives and uh

today's session we have uh Miss Anna Roy

as the keynote speaker and then we have

a panel of various team speakers from

industry and IIT jodhpur itself so uh I

would like to first introduce Miss Roy

uh she's a 1992 batch officer of the

Indian economic services

she is a lecturer at Delhi she was a

lecturer at Delhi University and Terry

before joining the Indian Engineering

Services in the government she has

worked in the ministry of finance

ministry of civil aviation and currently

nitya ayog she has held several

positions like deputy director joint

director director in Department of

Economic Affairs Ministry of France

for a period ranging from 1996 to 2012.

at Niti ayog she is currently heading

the Frontiers technology data management

and Analysis verticals in this role she

has led teams which have brought out

major reports like the national strategy

on artificial intelligence blockchain

India strategy approach paper on airawat

responsible AI principles and

enforcement mechanism the data

empowerment and protection architecture

Etc Mr also helps the women

entrepreneurship platform which is a

native Flagship program that works

towards developing the entrepreneurial

entrepreneurial ecosystem for women so

miss miss Roy thank you so much for

accepting our invitation to be a speaker

at this event and uh the floor is yours

thank you

thank you very much am I Audible

uh yes we can hear you first of all my

apologies because of some personal

exigencies I'm not able to uh be present

amongst you

um however I would like to thank the

organizers for allowing me to reach out

to you through this Virtual Mode uh so

with that I will start my presentation

before I jump into uh the topic of my

keynote address I would like to uh you

know give a small anecdotal uh kind of

event which happened when we were

working on the national strategy on AI

it was a base based on a extensive

stakeholder consultations with Academia

industry government bodies and we just

about reached out to everybody uh at

that time uh you know it was all very

new to me and I was really approaching

the technology from a policy makers

perspective not as a scientist or a

researcher so as a policy maker what I

saw of AI it was you know a black box

you can it's explainability is not there

uh you know if there are liabilities who

do you assign it to there are biases

there are privacy concerns all these

things were you know kind of thrown at

me in 2018 when we started this exercise

and I thought if I uh you know refer to

each of them in the strategy document we

will be marred with all kinds of nasals

and we will not be able to move forward

with the strategy document for promoting

Ai and it was actually uh you know

devjani Ghosh of nascon she said you

can't have a strategy without uh you

know talking about responsible AI so my

thanks to her and we did refer to it

though that was one of the segments

where we have not really dealt deep in

but in subsequent years we have come out

with some you know research papers on

the subject so with that I will start my

presentation on the public policy uh

perspective of responsible AI just by

way of introduction Niti ayog is a

premier think tank of government of

India unlike it's uh the erstwhile

Planning Commission we are not into

planning and what one of our jobs is is

to do some Vision uh thinking research

in those areas uh you know Sunrise areas

where people are not really working

today so in that capacity we had worked

in AI since 2018 as we all know the use

of data and AI has accelerated over

several years and I have come across

researchers who said I did my PhD in AI

in 1970 or 1977 whatever you know so AI

has been there for decades but it is

really the compute and digitization

which has really brought it to the

Forefront what India has really done in

this space is to present the public

digital platforms across various sectors

which has really become enabler for

development and Adoption of AI and AI

also has been a prominent technology for

deep Tech startup ecosystem for the last

decade uh I will not go through the

numbers it's all there on the screen

you're not able to see the slides I

think it was some problem because of

which it got mentioned

is it moving now it's generally a tech

you know Network issue would you like to

share the screen then

that's why the slides don't move

so

um

so we'll share

from destroy and we'll share it on Epix

also you can see the slides also yes yes

are you able to see the screen

yes

just put it on

presentation mode yes

yes so I was I was I think on the third

or fourth slide

this one so uh I had the data management

analytics and Frontier Technologies

vertical uh and this vertical in the

past has helped shape the AI policy for

the country we started with the strategy

document in 2018 uh we had a paper on

how to have a Computing infrastructure

which will really kind of you know be

very inclusive uh then of course the

three seminal works on responsible AI

starting with the principles in the

enforcement mechanism and the most most

latest offering is a use case which is a

facial recognition technology use case

which has just been finalized after

completing the stakeholder consultation

and the final the draft document is

already there the final document will be

put up shortly next

yeah

we also undertake pilot projects uh to

uh you know no no yes

we also undertake pilot projects to see

how the this uh you know phenomenal

technology will actually translate uh in

changing the processes on the ground so

we are working with research institutes

and also uh you know trying out these uh

for validation as well as understanding

the governance challenges of these

Technologies

uh when I talk about the strategy

document it uh besides highlighting the

immense potential of the technology it

also identified that the social sectors

which are characterized by public goods

are really lagging in terms of

investment

and these are the sectors like health

education agriculture uh urbanization

where the government of the day would

really need to kind of you know play a

leading role and in a very collaborative

manner work with the industry so that

you don't crowd out the industry also we

presented a scenario where India could

really lead the space of using this

technology for inclusive growth and we

termed it AI for all and uh you know

present itself as the garage of the

world where you develop for India and

you take it to the other countries next

please

so why is responsible AI should be a

important thing for a policy maker first

as I said that you know there are

various issues involved of uh access

barriers of privacy of biases

explainability itself and in a country

as diverse in every aspect as India uh

the potential of uh you know the flip

side of the technology is really that

much uh bigger next please

uh so when we spoke about the principles

for responsible AI we identified seven

principles these are there are other

organizations also in other countries so

typically these are the ones which are

generally acceptable they are a little

less than what U.N agencies uh propose

but we thought in the context of uh

India these seven

sorry could be the important principles

on which we can't uh work forward on the

subject of responsibility

we arrived at this by studying AI use

cases in India as well as around the

country around the world globally

identified various responsible AI

considerations and here we you know also

referred to many reports which were

already there uh in the ecosystem

um and then uh based on that we derived

these principles and these principles

basically have a as I said Global tinge

to it and are generally acceptable

so the key considerations were really

how to remove barriers for the adoption

of responsibility while it is not

mentioned here I think before uh this

the first thing which we had identified

is create awareness many a Time neither

do we understand the technology well the

potential of the technology or you know

mix a couple of things and toss it off

as AI so awareness building is very

important then removing the barriers for

responsible AI adoption because at times

uh you know some some things which can

help in in certain governance issues uh

people tend to overlook these uh

considerations so we were conscious of

this and also we our Focus was to

protect us the risk which AI can have

especially as I said you know uh the

diversity in the country so uh the

literacy digital literacy at the one

time we have a booming financial sector

as well as payment infrastructure but

digital literacy remains a concern and

also the access through various

facilities whether it is infrastructure

which whether it is other aspects which

can bring in a bar which can bring in uh

you know discrimination and of course

everybody talks about biases in AI tools

so that also needs to be kind of kept in

view given the diversity so the approach

to operationalize the principles would

need to strike a balance between

creating necessary guardrails because

this is a impo you know evolving

technology so we also in addition to

that need to ensure that you do not

Scuttle out uh you know the Innovation

part of it you allow uh r d properly you

are allowed allow Innovation to uh kind

of of Boom so basically regulation The

Innovation bias is something which we

preach which we kind of promote in our

in our recommendations second please

it's there on the next slide

yes so

is this the next time yes okay so uh

what okay what are the key policy

interventions at the uh uh that the

government can have so the scale and

reach of the government would make it

important that uh as a

stakeholder it enables uh the use of

responsible AI because of course uh

given uh you know if it procures in a

manner where responsible AI is Central

to the procurement of AI tools then it

sets The Benchmark in the market so

that's why the role of the government

becomes very important in promoting uh

the uh the entire concept of a

responsible Ai and also making it

integral to the AI ecosystem uh we have

proposed four broad areas on government

intervention uh one could be regulatory

intervention and as I say said in a

evolving area where the policy makers

may be uh you know

incentivized to over regulate but then

you will be kind of you know not allow

Innovation to happen so that balance

needs to be maintained and regulation in

such a sector would typically uh you

know will come as a as a lag and you

need to kind of you know find out how

you address that aspect also

promote research in responsible AI now

you all have heard about three Coes from

Niti we will be pushing for at least one

of the Coes to be in responsible AI so

if government funds responsible AI

research that will it will become a

market maker in the r d for responsible

AI because we feel that while the

considerations for having responsible AI

are very important whether it is privacy

bias discrimination we can overcome all

of them by largely buying you know

through Innovation through technology so

government could be the pocket maker for

promoting investment in r d of

responsible AI uh also provide data

access to enable responsible AI

development and of course lastly the

procurement you know a public

procurement if you do not streamline uh

AI government cannot be the biggest

Market maker so focus on procurement

where responsible AI systems become

integral next please

uh we also do not propose a cookie

cutter kind of a

system where everything is uniformly

dealt with uh you know the I would refer

to the SRI Krishna committee on on

privacy on data data uh the committee

report which referred to different kinds

of data based on so we have also used

the same principle and in our

recommendation we say that they just

vary across use cases so we have to be

conscious of that also risk would depend

on the deployment context whether you

know you are using it face frt for

unlocking your phone or for surveillance

should attract uh you know very

different kind of uh

systems like uh DT was the enabler for

uh inventing the

digi Earth Ryan airports and they are

responsible AI was one of the integral

things uh which cornerstones where all

the decisions were tested against it

also leveraged existing sector

Regulators because when we talk about

regulation whether it is web 3 whether

it is AI whether it is any other

emerging technology we have found that

our existing regulators and our

regulatory regime address many of these

concerns so you don't really need a new

regulation by tweaking uh some of this

you can address many of them so these

are the you know when we talk about

regulatory intervention this is the

approach that we uh propose next please

uh on Research in responsible AI also as

I said uh we are recommending that

government needs uh by example and fund

centers for uh studies

in collaboration not only with India

Indian institutes but also uh look

globally and we are already in talks

with IIT Madras who have announced their

Center and hopefully one of the Coes we

would be able to set up in the space of

responsibility

both of them have been involved in this

exercise and of course several other

such platforms are being done by other

Ministries as well next please

so after you know ensuring that data

access is not limited to a few

individuals provide democratizing access

to data the next thing is procurement of

responsible AI Innovations I mentioned

Digi yatra there we uh you know

implemented as a pilot but it kind of

scaled up through a challenge method and

also we need to look at mechanisms to

address these uh concerns uh you know

not just limited to issuing clearances

but providing guidance providing

awareness of all concerns not just

developers but also users I feel next

please

uh or as I said Global globally we and

the nsai also spoke about uh how uh

India can occupy yes

at least in 2018 that is what we were

saying that

in the AI for all uh uh you know space

and since then gpai has been formed

India is a founding member in G20 also

uh there is data for development and

public digital infrastructure is

something which India is pitching as

it's offering to the other G20 countries

so uh globally also we are making the uh

you know we have a forayed into this

space and we need to now scale up next

please

so how can institutes like IIT

contribute first of all as I said

so education and awareness uh not just

about the developers as I said but the

larger Equity firms Civil Society

students users of AI and for that we

need we would need to have you know

bespoke uh uh uh Beast pop models where

we can reach out in a curated manner to

the target audience so that is very

important creating awareness uh then

undertake research projects in the

Indian context and uh um is provides a

platform for bringing uh

cross-disciplinary collaboration uh to

one place of uh can also be approached

for this purpose the institutes can also

help creation of Open Source data tools

and Technologies to support the wider

ecosystem and Frameworks for enabling

this can be discussed and then

participate in various forums to

exchange views like we are doing today

so you know bringing the debate to

center stage on responsible AI so that

when I started in 2018

in my uh you know ignorance I thought

this will kind of derail the entire

goody train but today I firmly believe

that this should be the centerpiece and

around this the development adoption

everything can be scaled up thank you

very much

foreign

it is
can you hear me now yes

you can hear me now yes okay thank you I

was thinking thank you so much for for

the wonderful speech and uh the floor is

open to audience for questions

thank you for the insightful talk uh

regarding DG yatra and face recognition

do we have a study on data sets of uh

Indian ethnicities so face recognition

has bias with ethnicity so such aspects

are considered uh before uh starting

with uh stuff um I mean initiatives like

DJ yatra did you hear the question Miss

Roy yes I did so you know in digital

I I agree with you about these uh vices

but it has been uh validated model which

has been rolled out in airports and uh

you know it kind of uh I I cannot give

you the exact uh data as of now about

the specific specificity and other

aspects but it is validated and it was

rolled out only after uh the experts

kind of and we had an expert Group by

the way before launching the DJ yatra

project we had an expert group and

Professor

Watts was a member of that expert group

so it is not as if

experts including legal experts a legal

member was also a part of it so I think

I would uh request our professor what's

to kind of give you the comfort that the

product that was rolled out was well

tested

all I can say as the policy maker is

that we laid down a proper process at

least we could be wrong but to the best

of my uh ability I I wanted the process

to be open

transparent

uh predictable and inclusive

with ex expertise from the right set of

experts

and they vetted it and after that it was

ruled out

thank you Miss Roy uh any other

questions

thank you for highlighting IIT jodhpur's

contribution in Digi yatra also

it was a learning experience indeed for

all of us uh yeah we have another

question

um this is with it I am also a panelist

that follows this amazing talk I have a

question related to the iterations of

the policy formulation

um like is there a Cadence to it is

there a system to it given the

ever-evolving nature of uh AI are very

fast-paced uh development of AI the

policies specifically for the

responsible nature aspect of it

um so I I'm curious about what the

Cadence and what the process for

iteration over these policies would be

so as of now we don't have a formal

Cadence so as to speak as I mentioned it

is more a use case based approach that

we are following and you know I was so I

don't know how many of you uh heard

Madame Sita Ramen you know or honorable

Finance Minister delivered the budget

speech yesterday and she referred to a

consultative process to be followed by

Regulators so I think that shows how

open government is to bring in

regulations and policies which are

responsible responsive sorry not

responsible which are responsive to the

emerging ground conditions so even in AI

responsible AI as I mentioned we do not

subscribe to a cookie cutter but we do

not have a Cadence also what I can

suggest is that it has to be a

collaborative exercise in the NSA AI we

had proposed a Apex level Committee of

experts so it could be a body which

recognizes okay this space needs a new

regulation this space needs uh you know

tweaking of the regulation or policies

so this would be my answer to a question

as of now we don't have a Cadence as

such

thank you uh any maybe last question

if not thank you very much Miss Roy for

uh for taking out time out of your busy

schedule and uh we have a small token of

appreciation for you which will uh post

to your address back at back in Delhi so

thank you very much and uh we look

forward to hosting you in IIT jodhpur

sometime soon thank you I look forward

to be there too thank you very much

if your schedule allows will request you

to stay back and participate in the

panel session and listen to the other

talk as well

okay she's logged out okay so uh we can

continue with the next session so uh for

the next for uh the next talk is uh for

you to present to you what IIT jodhpur

is doing in this theme of responsible

and dependable AI uh Professor mayank

what's I would like to invite on stage

Professor Mike was to share with you uh

the updates from The Institute on that

head uh to introduce Professor Watson he

is a faculty member at IIT jodhpur a

faculty in the department of CSE and

school of aide he's also the dean RND of

uh IIT jodhpur and he's also heading the

uh PIH on computer vision AR and VR that

is I have drishti at IIT jodhpur he's a

researcher in this and like Mr I

mentioned he has been participating in

uh responsibility initiatives of the

country along with the digi yatra

program so Professor let's go over to

you thank you

a very good afternoon to all of you and

it is my pleasure to uh present what at

IIT jodhpur what kind of dependable and

responsible AI research we all are

working so um

as some of you may have already uh like

at least the students who are in my

Dependable AI course

you have seen some of the slides

and I'm kind of reusing it to highlight

one very important factor that that we

all are living in the AI world

uh we are still waiting for the AI

winter but still uh but but as we go

along we are making progress

at a very rapid Pace in fact in fact as

at an exponential basis uh we we move

forward for and and if you see the last

video the video that is running over

here is highlighting the the progress

like a person can sleep in the car

while the car is autonomously running in

the Bay Area

and then you would actually find many

such videos on on YouTube uh online

media where actually uh people are

sleeping in their Tesla car for two

hours of drive from one place another

place and it's I think that it's very

common over there these days okay and

and it's just not limited to uh the

success is not limited to only uh

autonomous driving it is actually oblet

recognition speech processing uh this

this morning we heard the keynote

speaker talking about chat GPT and so on

so forth this is all about making

progress in the AI word

uh but but as a researcher we at least

when I was a student I was told that he

said there AI cannot do certain things

in fact when I was at triplet to Delhi

Mr Johnny Ghosh was the speaker for a

convocation and she she very clearly

mentioned that three things which I

cannot do

first was uh the dexterity uh the

precise hand and I coordinates

second one is creativity and third one

is empathy or morality

so so is it really true today

um when we talk about

Boston robotics robots

and here is a small video to highlight

the very first thing that we cannot do

or we thought that AI cannot do has

already been done

[Music]

to let you know I can really shake them

down

it's

right now

station

and the last part which is very

important

so so when we thought that

uh

coordination cannot happen three robots

can dance together three people cannot

dance together

unless until you practice well

right so now I can do okay I can do the

first thing

AI can be the very creative tool chat

GPT is example those who are PhD

students you can get a paper out of it

in fact people have submitted paper as

chat GPT as a co-author

and and not only that

Cadbury has created a very nice

advertisement

which highlights uh that AI can be very

very creative and and here is that

particular video

smartphones

we used machine learning to recreate

Shahrukh Khan's face and voice to take

the locals

foreign

and you guys know right Shahrukh Khan

will not actually do advertisement for

the local shops

they cannot afford Shahrukh Khan

so so uh but but this is actually uh the

students in deep learning or di course

you know this is deep fakes

right so Shadow Khan is original the the

content is something which now can be

manipulated in a positive way

so it can be very very creative right so

so creativity the second part is still

gone we're still waiting for the third

part we don't know yet

uh

like Microsoft had a

chatbot called Tay

it was killing humans within 12 hours of

learning and then they had to shut down

right since with it is here I'll not

take the example of LinkedIn

and and it's just not that uh actually

it's both like Google and Linkedin I

cannot take the examples

but but just that the the boundaries

between the uh reality and and uh what

is not real is becoming so blurred that

the creativity actually is going to a

completely different level and and the

power of AI can be used or misused in

different contexts for instance look at

this particular video

what you see is not real

well well at least in contemporary

attorneys there's not

what if I were to tell you that I am not

a human being

would you believe me

what is your perception of reality

is it the ability to capture processes

make sense of the information our senses

received

if you can see and see here taste or

smell something else does that make a

sense

so what this video highlight this is a

completely synthetic video

no Morgan Freeman no audio of Morgan

Freeman being used it was completely

generated

and and these kinds of tools are now

available in fact yesterday some guests

were here and we created the defects of

those guests within actually few minutes

and and uh they were like okay if this

can be done in such a quick fashion then

there is a major problem and this while

this this can be a creative tool

um uh being misused is a major problem

and that's what the this particular lead

towards flooding the boundary between

what is real what is unreal leads

towards Misadventures of artificial

intelligence

and and this actually poses questions

about the dependability of AI systems

so uh before we understand what do we

mean by Dependable uh AI we need to

First understand what do we mean by

Dependable and responsible person

so so when we say that a person or my

friend is Dependable or reliable we look

for certain qualities right so so a

person cannot become Dependable

dependable and reliable in one go right

so so you first look at the qualities

and display the the uh features of a

person

um look at whether the person is wise

Fair creative uh the person has to be

confident honest right so so you look at

different features and and based on

those features then you can actually

associate that the person is indeed you

can depend on it the person keeps secret

it's not a privacy leaking person and so

and so forth right so so so these

features we need to transform or

translate into when we are building an

AI system we need to translate all these

uh features however as an AI researcher

when we design an AI algorithm or AI

system we look at what is my input what

is my output and output is typically

dependent on what is my classification

performance or whether the class labels

are being matched or not matched right

uh and then we end of the day we

actually try to minimize the empirical

risk

this is a classical like the students

sitting over here who are like who have

done prml or di course this is a

classical machine learning formulation

right where is that term for um

being Dependable being responsible

so so we do not have terms in our loss

function or in our optimization function

that so that the systems being made are

more responsible or dependable and

that's why this is what we proposed

couple of years ago the Pyramid of

Dependable or trusted or responsible AI

which should Encompass components like

explainability fairness robustness

security

privacy friendly decency lineage and so

on so forth

at IIT jodhpur uh the research group or

faculty members across different

institutions different uh departments

and departments and schools have been

working in different kind of project

teams for instance uh defic and attack

detection bias mitigation privacy

preserving AI uh the community policy

policing explainability and efficiency

and so on so forth

uh one of the project actually a couple

of the projects which are around

manipulated information as I said like

uh defect detection attack detection

even even the the how the manipulated

media is being translated and

transferred into the community uh

jointly done by multiple faculty members

from different departments this is a big

initiative that is being right now

undergoing

uh building robust or adversely robust

AI in fact for the last four weeks I

have been actually teaching this

particular Topic in the Dependable AI

course and I'm probably many students

are already doing their assignments on

this particular topic where how to make

the systems robust against adversarial

attacks

um multiple groups are working on on

bias and fairness in the AI system for

instance a very recent paper published

in IEEE transactions on technology and

Society highlights that in group bias in

Phase recognition is a major factor

ah similarly uh uh a new faculty member

who has just joined a couple of months

ago at IIT jodhpur he has been also

trying to work and view uh bias

mitigation as a multi-task approach

faculty colleagues are working in

Dependable vision and language

intersection for instance talking about

common sense and factual reasoning when

we are doing image search or Vision

augmented table to text generation

using using the modern date Transformers

uh faculty members are also working on

small sample size learning so the

learning mechanisms for which we do not

have a lot of training samples how do we

train machine learning algorithms when

you have a data set belonging to rare

diseases or when you have data sets for

which you do not have any training

sample particularly like zero short

learning few short learning and that

kind of small small sample size learning

techniques have been undertaken by The

Faculty colleagues and students over

here

faculty colleagues are also working in

the domain of Federated learning privacy

preserving learning where where you have

multiple devices connected over over a

broad Network in which you you preserve

your data on your system you do not

share the data but you share only the

learnings with each other via

centralized mechanism of centralized

server and and faculty colleagues are

developing this kind of Federated ad hoc

networks so that the learning can be

more privacy preserving and accurate

faculty colleagues are also working in

explainability in AI like the AI

decisions that that we make how to

ensure that when you make such a

decision whether it is explainable or

whether it is correct or not and why it

is correct

so for instance if you look at the first

diagram this is coming from a research

paper collab where the multiple faculty

colleagues and even outside IIT jodhpur

colleagues also collaborated to to

figure out when we design covet x-ray

analysis tool then how to ensure that

the systems are taking decision based on

the actual disease rather than there is

a pacemaker and just because there is a

pacemaker in its covered that was

actually a paper published in nature

which highlighted that most of the covet

x-ray analysis paper which suddenly came

out of uh based on some data points

available on the web uh everyone started

actually saying that yes this is a deep

learning architecture this can do covet

analysis and then what happened was that

most of the data that was available had

coming from actually old age people from

Italy and and those who had pacemaker so

the Deep learning models learned

pacemaker as a feature for covid rather

than actual covet features

so so that was actually a big disaster

right so so then the group over here

designed an explainable classic

explainable deep learning model for for

doing that particular task

and then here are some of the examples

uh Associated to like learning useful

features and explain that the decisions

being made are are indeed correct

this is just actually the tip of the

iceberg several faculty members working

in different domains different

departments different idrps and who have

been publishing in top venues and and

application areas are ranging from

security surveillance Healthcare arvr

Dependable HDI and an image and video

analysis

several funding agencies including

government as well as industry they all

have been supporting the research

Endeavor of students and faculty members

and as I said like we already have a

core compulsory course for AI students

which is called as Dependable AI uh we

have a course which Professor Chaudhary

is teaching called as ethics policy law

and regulations in Ai and and we have

been also conducting winter schools uh

and then many more uh around this kind

of domain

and as I said like uh as the whole theme

over here is is to build more

collaborations we are open for

collaborations with industry and

organizations worldwide faculty members

are open for students coming and working

with them uh in in some of these

research problems and towards the end I

would like to run a audio

to highlight

the AI system can be creative and can be

misused just imagine after running the

audio you just imagine what are the

misuses of this kind of approach

this audio was created a couple of weeks

ago

so um

now you can actually put any words any

words in anyone's mouth

so it's it's a very important area of

research

in which I would urge the students

colleagues friends

to help and contribute thank you very

much

so training AI is very energy intense

so is sustainability also a part of

responsible AI
and is that being looked at

actually a very good question

um so so when we talk about uh

responsible AI one of the important

features is that how to scale the whole

uh ecosystem and sustainability is one

of the factors when we are going to

actually scale it up if it is in a lab

condition then uh it is one thing but

when when uh Miss Anna Roy actually

talked about responsible AI that

particular document when we prepared it

one of the factors over there we

highlighted that how to ensure that the

system actually scales up at initial

level and and scaling up also includes

how to actually scale up the hardware

ecosystem how do we how do we scale the

whole uh

mechanism so so yes sustainability is

actually inbuilt in being responsible

it is not being Dependable that's why

the track actually over here when we

were discussing with Professor Chaudhary

about the name of this track if you only

call it as a Dependable AI then

sustainability will probably may not

actually come directly but being

responsible is when actually you bring

in other factors other even societal

factors also and and that's how actually

the whole theme was designed to ensure

that we cover uh end to end

to answer the second part of a question

we faculty members are working on

scalable Hardware Solutions so we have

uh some of the colleagues are there and

uh if you would like to interact we can

set up a discussion with them as well

thank you

other questions

if not then we move on to the next uh

next event of this session which is

which is our panel session

let me take this opportunity to invite

our esteemed panelists on the stage uh

we'll start with Dr lipika day uh Dr

lipica day is Chief scientist and tcl's

uh TC's research she's currently

handling research in the theme of

Economic and financial intelligence her

areas of Interest are natural language

processing artificial intelligence

applications machine learning and

analytics of multi-structured data she

has been awarded the fellowship of

Indian National Academy of Engineering

in 2021 and the distinguished scientist

award by TCS in 20 2012. she is also a

visiting faculty with us at IIT jodhpur

so thank you Dr day for accepting the

invite please take the stage

our next speaker next panelist today is

Dr Sharia Roy uh Dr Roy is a senior

research director at Flipkart he's a

seating seasoned technology leader with

specialization in data and Industry

recognized expert in data Sciences

natural language processing and machine

learning over the past two decades he

has led data science data product and

data analytics team with IBM's Xerox

American Express and Flipkart a thought

leader and author of about 100

peer-reviewed papers in premium journals

and conferences and over 30 granted

patents thank you Dr Roy please uh

welcome to the stage

next is Dr gaurav agrawal Dr gaurav

agrawal is a researcher with Google

research India he has over 15 years of

experience in building computer vision

and machine learning Solutions both in

academic and Industrial settings prior

to this he worked in the capacity of

head of data science at Ola he also

co-founded a technology startup called

fasciate which was acquired by Snapdeal

he also worked at the Yahoo labs and was

was also a assistant professor at

University of Notre Dame a very wide

experience and a very good friend thank

you Dr Agarwal for accepting the invite

uh next is Dr weather Jen Dr wither Jen

is currently the head of AI at LinkedIn

India and he's also the global head of

content quality at AIA at LinkedIn he's

not at LinkedIn by the way

in this role he's also responsible for

keeping LinkedIn platform free of all

bad content and boosting good

professional content prior to that he

was a co-founder at a health Tech

startup and the analytics leads at Notre

Dame building high definition Maps human

face analysis and fast object detection

uh thank you Dr thank you doctor with it

uh thank you for accepting our invite

please come to this stage

and last but not the least our last

panelist is Professor shantanu Chaudhary

uh he doesn't need an introduction from

me he's the director of IIT jodhpur

and and one of the countries an

internationally leading experts in AIA

he's a driving force behind all of this

behind having this session today and uh

with it said in the morning that he's

always amazed by his energy so seven

days a week he works till nine o'clock

and

still has time to do research so thank

you Dr Chaudhary for accepting the

invite and the moderator for today's

panel is Professor Watson so Professor

what's over to you thank you

foreign

so first of all I would like to request

h no no um I'd like I'll request

probably to uh welcome our panelist uh

with the with bouquet

okay

um so um that the format of the panel is

going to be I'll pose few questions

first and then I'll request the

finalists to share their thoughts in and

around or even in a free-flowing way

and with their own uh experience around

this particular theme dependable and

responsible Ai and then the floor will

be open for uh questions by the audience

so so I have listed down about a few

questions uh actually five of those the

first question that I have listed is are

are the possible harms and benefits of

AI the same
the second question is can AI be a force

of empowering Society

and reducing inequalities

or it will lead to a dystopian future

third question is what happens if AI

replaces humans in the workplace how to

control a system that is smarter than us

fourth one is who is responsible for

ai's mistake this is a very common

question we keep on hearing

and the last is why is trustworthy AI

important for your industry or field

so so we'll start with uh Dr lipika Day

is this one

huh

um

okay this is

okay uh thank you very much for giving

me this opportunity

we are not sharing

the player is controlled by them

foreign

[Music]

you have all heard about you know what

possibly uh AI can do both in positive

way as well as a negative impacts of it

now where I will come from and possibly

I'll be uh answering some of the

questions in the reverse order that is

starting from 543 so what uh first of

all let us see as TCS has uh different

kinds of projects with a range of

clients uh where we are responsible for

delivering all kinds of solutions which

of course today uses AI based Solutions

a lot

notwithstanding the fact whether there

will be you know people will lose their

jobs or not uh AI is here to stay so

therefore we have to really look at how

to make uh AI work in all kinds of

situations and how to actually uh also

skill our people in order to move

towards building those Solutions

being these Solutions which are always

applicable in different kind of

situations be it in those automated cars

or banking systems or retail systems

wherever the code thrust is on

trustworthy Ai and what do we mean by

trustworthy which would be delivering

reliable compliant this is one of the

key points uh which Miss Roy had also

mentioned and will look a little bit at

that

trustworthy AI systems which were

trustworthy would mean all those aspects

of safety

transparency neutrality or inclusiveness

privacy preserving and green which just

now uh pradeep was asking so all these

from the point of view of our

organization has to be an aspect of the

software that are built and actually uh

shared for uh used by the end users

uh so what are the challenges challenges

are really non-availability of

comprehensive evaluation Frameworks

today for responsible AI so indeed

that's a research area as we have been

hearing but uh right now whatever we can

do we have to do in order to ensure that

whichever AI Solutions are going into

the field have to have these components

in some way built into it or have humans

in the loop in order to ensure that it's

not harmful or destructive uh or wrong

in a big way and therefore we have

Frameworks in place as well as research

to ensure that these things are taken

care of I'm not sure whether you will be

able to read it but what is the primary

uh Focus that we come from why we need a

framework is that

it can be well realized that what are

the core concerns for manufacturing

industry maybe from trustworthy AI may

be very different from the core concerns

of the Telecom industry or the banking

industry or the healthcare industry and

so on so first of all building these

policies principles requirements of

different sectors and what kind of

aspects are needed to be looked into for

the different sectors forms the outer

core of what we are working on

going down if we dig deeper then each of

these systems have either have obviously

certain machine learning models sitting

inside them uh they have they could be

forecasting models there could be Bots

which are uh deployed uh and uh within

the models also we have variations like

sequence to sequence which are

generating text uh or which could be

generating images or summarizing text

and so on so there are different kinds

of AI systems that we are talking about

and each one of them will have their own

requirements to be compliant and

trustworthy which will start from the

model building itself

so our emphasis is on building tools to

ensure uh that these are well evaluated

for all the parameters that we have been

talking about and specifically the

parameters that are more uh needed for a

particular industry and for a particular

task also prediction task is not the

same as generation task

development of the methods of course and

as we are mentioning that right now we

do not even have a checklist of what all

to check before it goes so making those

checklists and ensuring that there are

methodologies to ensure that these are

compliant on all the aspects as some of

the is kind of main focus of the labs

and we are also involved in various

standards committees in order to ensure

that the standards are out as we have

been discussing Miss Roy was also safe

so this is a very uh small glimpse of

some of the research projects uh which

you know I just thought I'll take up

considering uh it jodhpur also has

overlap in some of these areas uh and

also try to see how it's very important

so first thing is data and system

compliance a very important factor for

companies like us who are building

software whether it's to be used in

Europe or us or Japan or India the

standards for data compliance are very

different say for example if we take the

issue of gdpr it has very strict data

compliance issues and we cannot just go

and deploy an AI model which is not

compliant with say article 17 of gdpr

which says that everyone has a right to

forget now if you have built an AI model

which has used past data of a person and

it cannot forget in fact the second box

is just an example which activity was

asked Can you forget and it said that no

neural networks can learn incrementally

but it cannot forget what it had learned

so therefore it will take quite some

time despite all the bus that is created

by chat chipity before we can just go

and deploy it into a system and make the

chatbot out of it very smart chatbot the

second set of projects are around green

score of all kinds we do it for all

kinds of projects so earlier the

emphasis was on all IT projects how can

you because you know as companies are

becoming more and more digital there's

lot of software which are guzzling

actually energy and AI models are

particularly known for it so just like

we had green scoring systems for other

systems we are now building it for

scoring the AI models themselves a lot

to go inside the code and check how much

of energy it is consuming and how it can

be uh how it can be reduced so one is at

code level and the other is at model

level so that that's uh one set of

activity

the third one is as uh we have been

hearing it's on explainability these are

all very research oriented projects how

can you uh include explainability not

just for the machine learner machine

learning scientist but for the end users

whether it's a predictive system for uh

medical uh prediction of medical

conditions Hospital Logistics management

I myself work a lot on uh predicting uh

ICU length of stay and procedures

Etc so all all those are good but

without an explanation of why we are

giving this a result it's not acceptable

whether it's for a healthcare industry

or for financial industry these are a

must

uh the third set of things are what I

was mentioning that actually on building

newer models and particularly robust

models which would not just get uh you

know uh going aside uh going astray by a

pacemaker or whatever by all kinds of

wrong data so that's the third uh that

that's the fourth bucket a lot of work

is going on in that particular area also

uh open set recognition where we know in

real world classification systems which

can recognize only in k categories get

completely uh uh completely

um or even you give the K plus one at

class or a plus 12th class so how do you

build models which can handle them which

can actually predict with confidence

that this is a new system which I a new

element which I don't know rather than

just putting a wrong prediction model

compression is one of the focus again

because

we can have or we do need to have

smaller models rather than all these

heavy models and that's again very

important that all these very large

models have been built on open set Data

Enterprises do not really have a notated

data of such scale to build the models

so we do need to work on smaller models

for AI so these are some of the research

projects and finally I would just like

to say how we uh engage with various

academic institutions we already have

mous with various iits and also ATI

jodhpur we engage research advisors

faculty and I do see a lot of overlap in

research interests we encourage joint

engagement of students along with

faculty and I think what we heard in the

morning long term

btech and Tech projects with maybe 6 to

12 months in the industry you are very

welcome to work with IIT jodhpur faculty

and TCS we are always open to explore it

more on collaborative projects and of

course student internships so with that

I would like to end

thank you Dr Dave thank you very much

now uh I'd like to next uh invite Dr

gaurav

just

thank you

thank you man thank you for inviting me

so first of all I I see a lot of sleepy

faces here it's probably not the best

time after Rajasthani lunch and and I

hear like like me many of you were

forced to be here I think Richard is a

friend so she when I didn't respond to

her emails she she messaged my wife why

is God I'm not responding so I see many

of you are in her course and you are

instructed to be here so that's okay but

still an important topic so please ask

questions please engage with us because

we have a point of view it's not like it

is a done deal or we are we know more

than many of you

uh so so I think you know mayank and

lipika has already you know sort of

described what what these things mean

right so first of all I want to say like

while

uh you know how many times did I hear

Chad CPT today in the morning session

now life is beyond charity PPT didn't

exist before 30th November so so you

know the especially in India I think the

these these terms have much deeper

meaning where we come from it's not just

bias and and inclusivity uh and

trustworthiness on in on the internet

world but but beyond that actually and I

hope we all understand that that's one

second is I feel

uh see see deep learning happened around

2012 right I don't know if many of you

realize it because it has been 10 years

since uh you know since ml has been

revolutionized forever and I guess uh

how many of you know actually I'm also

visiting faculty in a couple of

institutes so I'll just wake you up so

so how many of you what is the

underlying uh let's say chat GPT again

right because that's the Talk of the

Town what was the most underlying paper

that led to chat GPT does any of you

know came in 2017 but they were not last

year or this year

it's a very popular name yes

yeah so that came and you know Ashish is

a good friend the first author of that

paper is a very good friend of mine so

you know so it takes time so you know

and today we are talking about it it

will change you know before we realize

we will not talk about it literally in

two years from now there will be

something else something very very

different so so let's I hope we don't

over index on these terms just a bit

based on it's like a recency bias we are

biased because what we see and all of

our ideas are our technology is biased

on that these terms will stay beyond the

you know beyond the the sort of the the

fashionable term we have learned in

recent times right uh so so why why do

you think again I'll take it in a

lecture mode so that few of us at least

wake up why do you think like

responsible AI or customer the AI

inclusive AI Dependable AI we have been

talking about it for a long time it's

not these are not new terms like when

buying creature I with it were PhD

students we were still talking about

them there's no deep learning back then

models used to be very small they're no

hardly any neural networks that you used

to use

so why do you think you know we have not

made as much progress our systems are if

anything you know less responsible less

all of those anyone

do you know like why deep learning

happened here with it it says risky

thing but it used to be like yeah

because we were not as smart as you all

are so now we have hope

that's a good answer anything else

not a valid answer the good answer

anyone do you think what happened like

around like 2010-12 what happened

again someone else here you are already

awake

yes we have to be inclusive right I mean

that's part of that someone

what happened in 2010 11 12 that

suddenly alexnet came and then there was

a deluge of deep learning papers

sorry

yeah so data imagenet happened right I

mean many of you who probably have taken

classes with Richard Bank you know that

image that happened

it was really well crafted dataset was

just very very hard and nothing none of

the algorithms we had access to or we

were developing could

could could scale to that complexity

and obviously compute was also available

so all those things happen and and we

started making progress towards this new

age of AI if you want to call it

similarly uh chat GPD is like a sort of

outcome of this five six years of effort

on on attention models the transform

models as they are more popularly called

so it takes time but I think that

responsible AI or trustworld the AI you

know all these things I think we didn't

have that Innovation at the moment I

don't think we have a or we will

understand some of how do we even create

that data set actually

uh we know when when something is not

responsive we know when something is not

Dependable we know something is not

inclusive but given the diversity of

dimensions of all these factors which we

can perceive but it's very hard to

prescribe combinatorially and I think

that's what has not happened that's one

second is even as a researcher right I

think our research community

thinks of this as an afterthought

I mean

it's like saying uh you know it's funny

right these days if you buy a air ticket

you pay for it and then when you are

checking you pay for seat but what did I

pay for

right so it's funny similarly AI system

they should be Dependable they should be

robust they should be trustworthy I mean

that should not come as afterthought

it's not it's not a good system but

we'll use it if all these things are not

there so I think as a research Community

we should not think of them as after

thoughts okay I have a good system it

works well

but then I I don't add it works well for

males of a certain race of a certain age

group and so on right what's the point

of that system I mean nobody's going to

use it uh so that's another

uh and I think

as far as I think collaboration goes

right I think I think different uh

different entities whether it is

industry industrial Labs uh universities

they have slightly different uh

different sort of loss functions to

optimize for so it's a we are talking

about AI so we can use these technical

terms so I think that all of them coming

together actually

can make it happen because if if a

company is doing it they will obviously

want to you know optimize for their

profits I mean they will care less about

anything else but as a university

researcher you probably are little more

eager to do things right as a student

you probably have bigger dreams and you

want to change revolutionize the way you

know AI is done so so that's another

last but not the least point is uh it's

a follow-up on the afterthought idea

right

see earlier all the AI systems used to

be monocentric in their sense they will

do one thing very well

but if you see the trend in past few

years including your favorite chat GPT

it does it doesn't know the task it was

not trained for the task

you know you can ask it anything it has

not trained for that question at all

but it does well so today the models are

are becoming more and more multitasking

if you want to call it and I think

mayank mentioned that in slides that a

faculty here is sort of looking at it as

a multitasking framework and I think

there is a merit in it because the kind

of models we have come up with today if

one of the tasks

or many of the tasks are dealing with

these Dimensions that we really care

about I think it is possible again it

should be part of the modeling exercise

not as after 30s again my last Point

again thank you

thank you

so I request Sharia to to share his

thoughts uh

okay uh firstly thanks Richa and mayank

uh for inviting me here and really thank

you all the IIT jodhpur faculty member

and the student for the warmth

Hospitality it has been amazing the half

day I am doing here

okay

um so firstly let me start with by

saying there's something obvious that

responsible and dependable AI is

absolutely need of the hour and to the

extent that these are table Stakes

these are absolutely needed we cannot

exist AI systems cannot exist without

them

now this is obvious

but why it is obvious

let's think the contrary part of it the

opposite of it if an AI system is not

responsible what is it it is

irresponsible

it is not Dependable it is unreliable

would you like to use something which is

not responsible unreliable forget AI

would you like to use any technology

which is not reliable

your car

breaks down

in a random distribution

was

it breaks down when a woman driver

drives more than a man

or it breaks down even more when a

person who doesn't wear a sacred thread

it breaks down even more

you see my point

a technology and so is AI

can make mistake a car can break down

but you cannot make mistakes in a

particular way

which is not fair to a particular

segment of the population or the

population of the users

an AI system
cannot be

giving

less opportunity to a woman job Seeker

than a man job Seeker everything else

dancing equal

or a person who is coming from an

affluent or higher Society higher strata

of the society shouldn't be getting a

better opportunity in terms of

financially or economically than someone

from the lower Society right so what is

my point here right point is that this

is absolutely absolutely needs to be

baked in and kind of borrowing from what

gaurav was saying right this cannot be

after thought right this needs to be as

a part of the thought process as a part

of the building the technology

this needs to be baked in and included

mayank was mentioning that the loss

function does not include anything

related to the responsibility or the

dependability right of our supervised

learning optimization loss function

similarly if I go to do the take the

industry analog right when we develop an

AI or machine learning product right we

have certain things called like you

might have heard right I mean it is

there on the all the trees in Bangalore

ml Ops right the training in ml apps

what is it it is a it is it is a

Evolution or a hotspotch of uh devops in

the software development life cycle and

machine learning on top of it right how

do you do machine learning product

development it has certain stages like

software development life cycle it's not

as standard but it's kind of stages and

goes through the cycle there is some

iteration something there is nothing

like a responsibility ethic fairness any

of those things baked in these are still

coming as an afterthought and if till

the time this comes start coming

continue coming as after thought we will

not be building responsible AI at first

place

and uh and it will always be kind of a

post-factor fix right and I'm not saying

that not at all it is happening yes of

course industry in the companies and the

big organizations are doing things

around that but a lot more is needed

and just to kind of pending my first

point going back to the car example so

today we don't make cars which break

down so often or break down in a

discriminating manner why is this a

problem in Ai and this is my I feel in

my opinion opinion is that because AI

development is happening at a much much

faster rate than probably automobile

development happened in the last

in 15 years today things that we see the

computer producing text computer

recognizing images computer putting

captions to images to the to the

accuracy and to the comprehensiveness of

course you can always find flaws in

those but the comprehensiveness that it

developed 15 years ago we could not

think about it we could not think that

will be possible forget about doing it

right so the pace at which we are

developing the AI vehicles

we are also laying the road we are also

putting the guardrails of the policies

and the Frameworks and everything that's

why it is a bit challenging that's why

it is super exciting to be in this space

that is why it is it is absolutely

relevant and and and I believe that it

is going to be increasingly relevant as

as things evolve

so that's my first point the second

point I again kind of coming to the

Indian context I just wanted to put in

one one one uh layer on it

the significant I mean again I'm not an

expert in this topic but the amount of

research that I have seen in this in

this domain is

is heavily indexed on the western

definition of

fairness or bias and so on

but the dimensions of buyers the by

dimensions of unfairness in the Indian

context are different there are certain

things common gender is common but in

our case the uh more than ethnicity I

believe socioeconomic status is more

important I believe geographical access

is more important I believe the stature

of the institute for a person graduates

from is more important as as as as

dimension of bias and that is where when

we develop Technologies for anything

that it has an Indian application we

need to consider we need to re pivot or

reoriented ourselves with the right

dimensions to be considered and just

giving you a couple of example right

linguistic diversity is probably the

highest in the in a country in one

country uh in in India among the world

right so whenever we are developing AI

Technologies AI products for anything

for in India right linguistic diversity

should be the first and foremost uh

thing right I mean as an example right I

mean today flipkarts app is a available

about a dozen languages in India right

but of course we started off with

English and English is where we have

most of our machine learning NLP

research that is powering a lot of our

content lot of our data in there but we

have used AI in the Indian languages

vernacular language is to make it

accessible the reviews the product

descriptions and everything through

automated translation for the rest of

the rest of the things and of course it

is non non-trivial in many occasions I

can get into the offline discussions in

that why is this a challenging problem

but to consider that as a dimension is

is what is important similarly

geographical access right again

borrowing the Flipkart example right

today Flipkart delivers in almost every

pin code of India

with a country like India which sold

diverse with vast expanse as well as the

non-uniformity of access right it's no

mean deal it's it's no no no small deal

but to do that we had to develop a lot

of technology and lot of AI enabled

tools are there for our supply chain for

our forecasting for our planning

operations and everything that has been

able to make ourselves uh um enabled to

be able to kind of serve the whole

entire country so in nutshell the second

point that I'm trying to make here is

that that when considering these aspects

of fairness and dependable and

responsible AI please do consider the

local and the custom context as well

because they are the primary driver in

in those in those in those areas thank

you

foreign

thank you very much uh the next finalist

Dr vidit you are up

to give it a more casual way of

discussion so actually I do um in most

of the interesting and relevant topics

are already covered so I'll just try to

entertain you for a bit

um

on the slightly yeah I have friends here

who are not really my friends here I

realize they're asking me to dance over

here but I can I can assure you I cannot

dance like
half of that robot that mayank showed

earlier

actually that is a segue into some of

the questions that mayank put us put in

front of us to discuss but one thing

before I get into the specific questions

I do want to kind of also take a step

back from all the discussion because

whenever like I am part of some

conversation or when I hear about

responsible AI it actually comes out in

a little bit of a negative connotation

that we are not doing enough that is

probably what most of us have heard even

today also but one thing I do want at

least I question myself and I want all

of you to also think about

the responsible AI while responsible is

an adjective here

think of just turning it around

think of AI as just a technology

and is it do being responsible to the

society that is another interpret or

Dimension to it and think compare it to

any other technology you have in mind

like I think Sharia gave a great example

of automobiles that's a car automotive

industry it has touched pretty much

every person on this planet

in

how many decades

and think of how much AI has touched or

benefit benefited every single person on

the planet I I still would not I there

are caveats on every single on both

Automotive Telecom any other technology

so just like take it with a grain of or

a bag of salt here but think about that

and once we realize that even while we

are being a little bit perhaps we are

being a little bit over critical to AI

it has actually done a lot of like

played a responsible part to the society

and let's go back to what mayank

presented earlier and raised One open

question empathy

if I were sitting in there I would also

be thinking as a student that yeah that

looks like an opportunity to me I could

be the next person or I can prove I

ain't Wrong by building an AI solution

that talks about empathy

and child GPT I mean think of it as a

tool and I'm just gonna over index on

chat deputy just to counter gaurav here

um that you can use it to be let's say

think of

empathy can come in different different

form so let's talk about very simple

actually like here I should also insert

a little bit of my workplace about what

I do at LinkedIn

um but let's think about it like I do

content moderation like I had the

content quality team at LinkedIn what

that means is

there are people posting bad content on

internet and Linkedin is one of the

platform Google is another and Facebook

Twitter

Instagram and whatever like the cool

people are using right these days so

that can have a lot of negative impact

now ai

how can you build empathy tools one is

you can like prevent bad content the

second is people do get affected by this

all of us

have felt bad looking at some content

and it need not be really like a bad

content but it could be offensive and

that's where fairness and other so it's

not only just AI being unfair the world

is unfair too

people on the internet users on the

internet are also unfair and they are

also not responsible

most of us may also be irresponsible in

certain dimensions of

what we do every day but

I mean AI does play a role and maybe we

can build even better tools than what we

have right now and prove mayank wrong

that would be my takeaway the truth

mayank wrong in the last slide

okay with that maybe

um bank now it's your rebuttal time

I'll report later on but um thank you

thanks with it for in fact I'll be happy

if actually tomorrow uh an AI system

actually shows uh empathy I'll be

actually very happy and therefore but

but at least in my honest opinion we are

still not there yet

is the open opportunity for everyone in

this room exactly

and thank you thank you very much now I

request Professor Chaudhary to share his

views and thoughts

okay it's now coming back to again the

Academia

okay so it went from Academia to

Industry and back to an Academia

and as an academic person the questions

which has been positive and what we did

has indicated that's actually for me is

a very exciting open space

today when we design AI systems

we actu we really put in place

a single objective

objective is in terms of accuracy

but obviously when we are talking about

this responsible AI it's very clear to

us that that objective does not satisfy

my need

and that's an open space to think about

new AI

in fact it has been always if you say

you had we talked about automobile as an

example

but way the automobile uh maybe it's a

longer history but where the new

versions have come is on the basis of

the customer's demand customers

requirement

and it's very clear today the customers

of AI demand that AI has to be

responsible

and therefore the problem is there in

fact for all of you the next problem to

solve is how to make actually a

formulate the problem the way that you

get a responsibility I in fact pick up

you pick up an optimization problem

because finally training is an

optimization problem if I look at purely

from a supervised learning perspective

and see that

can I bring in say when we talk about

uh training we do not most of the cases

do not talk about changing the

architecture

given an architecture we try to optimize

in terms of parameters in terms of the

performance

now if you bring in a parameter as an

architecture itself

such that the energy consumption would

be minimized that could be a methodology

for Designing green

AI

because AI today is I think is one of

the worst

uh enemy for sustainability

and because of the popularity everybody

using it and and the the amount of

energy it consumes it requires in terms

of women compute engines being developed

it's actually is not helping the

sustainability cause in any way

and on the other side of it if you look

at a human being and human brain

over Evolution human right is an

absolutely optimized in terms of energy

consumption

so therefore the evolutionary

optimization problem
was more responsible

okay and we as a Technologies when we

have attacked it since we have followed

one perspective only we have not really

made it

optimize in terms of energy requirement

and energy requirement is is a so very

fundamental in terms of the natural

growth in the natural world

and this is something I think I would

request all the students to look at and

why

should we go back to possibly human

brain to make maybe just this one aspect

of making AI responsible

then look at from I I would like to

address some other points which are

slightly controversial okay it's not

technology wise but since technology and

society and a policy are in various ways

integrated and linked and we today

started discussions on the basis of

policy I think this is also important

do we need a regulator for AI do we need

regulations for AI

because the whole point is the moment

you bring in regulation

you can make also AI irresponsible

we have seen that we have seen that

technology can be used in both ways

a very simple example is your nuclear

technology

you have seen that it can be used for

positive purposes

it can be used for negative purposes

and it's a technology which has been

manipulated and used by the human brain

only

and AI has a potential

to be used it's very clear today there

are so many examples you can use it in a

negative way you can use it also in a

positive way no regulation can make sure

that you can only use it in a positive

way

so here the whole question comes is of

conscientious technology

and in fact the consistent AI Engineers

have to be inherently consensuous so

that when you look at usage of a

technology you should ask a question

what for it is being used and when you

are designing it whatever you are

designing it

and that's that's I'm talking about pure

from an academician if you look at from

an academic perspective these issues

these values are something which is very

very critical in terms of approaching

science

and signs for whom that's also again

another question which comes in

AI is a technology which can be

manipulated in various ways that's the

most dangerous part

it automobiles

kill human being then it becomes a

weapon

but AI can be an invisible weapon

and that's the most dangerous part that

we all should be very careful with so

what does it imply implies that if you

look at

we have talked about variety of software

testing methodologies

now I have not seen really a very well

defined I think you can actually much

closer to uh research today from than me

because of other reasons

is there a test

tell me that AI product is responsible

to a certain degree no

not therefore the testing of a AI

product is something is in terms of your

responsibility scale is an open issue

how do you test how do you define a test

you can test whether it is correctly

recognizing or not even with small data

Big Data self-supervised unsupervised

it's working for the problem or not but

is it working responsibly

how to design a test for a system that

is working responsibly if we bring that

in in the design spec itself

then only possibly you can Define the

testing process for it

and there are two things in any

technology there are developers of

Technology

and there are consumers of Technology

and there has to be a right for

developer

therefore the developer may or may not

be responsible

but on the other side consumer has to

have a test to make sure that what he is

adopting and using is really responsible

and it not harm him

and today if you see there are many

products we use which are approved by

the regulatory Authority are not

healthy

so therefore AI also has that risk and

Challenge

and the other part of it is they

regulatory method itself

can actually use AI

for various purposes

we have already seen AI being used for

political purposes

okay so regulatory regulatory mechanism

is a controversial issue

and whether there should be a regulatory

mechanism for a technology or not

and how it would be regulated

it's a political question rather than a

technical question and what is

fundamentally important is to have

responsible AI

as a conscientious AI Engineers how are

we developing design methodology to make

it responsible any product has to be at

the end of the day responsible which

actually go over has very clearly

pointed out that if it is not

responsible even uh uh when it has been

pointed out later also that if it is not

uh sorry you have pointed out that if it

is not responsible nobody buy it

and that's exactly the key Point as a

consumer so consumer can make AI

responsible

and conscious design designer can

develop Technologies to make AI

responsible and that's a fundamental

Point whether AI will when AI will

replace human being I don't think he

will ever replace human being

okay because there is a very clear this

diagonal argument if you look at the

goggles uh philosophy or logic that

human being does it can never know

himself

and hence it can never create something

which will exceed himself

so this is my whole hypothesis so

therefore

AI can never replace human being

it can actually augment what human being

is doing

and therefore I think the best way to

look at AI is

a device or a technology which augments

your capability which increases your

ability to deliver service and even

Indian context say for example medical

service at phc if we can make a

responsible AI system which just gives

the advice to a doctor at a phc by

looking at the cases

in in finite time that will change the

health delivery system of the country

and I think that is the greatest

challenge of creating a responsible AI

which can Aid Endeavor of an human being

thank you

thank you Dr sadri

so now the floor is open for questions

from the audience

foreign

quisite for AI development so how does

one see AI developing in the web 3.0

environment

I would like to take this question

I don't even know whether I understand

web3 properly but

expensive yeah I mean because people

have different versions

okay yeah so there the answer is I think

yeah so I'll can so if that is your

version so I think mayank had that on

his slide right so Federated learning is

already a thing uh right I mean for

example if you're using uh Android phone

the gboard the auto complete that

happens right the data your data never

leaves your phone

right so so the motto gets personalized

on your data on your device while it is

fully private so so I think we already

have systems not just algorithms which

are live and working so we just all

algorithms have to be decentralized your

data cannot leave because

yeah

okay so my point is like basically data

can't leave the owner basically and it's

possible

to the likes of Google's and Facebooks

how do you develop AI further

3.0 is all about data decentralization

yes also the so things like it's like

one is like you don't you know there's a

choice right I mean you don't want to

use the system no one can force you to

give data right it's not a it's not

ather that you really need like in India

if you want to really I think survive I

think you need I mean people can

complain about my biometric being used

right I mean I was actually thinking

someone who lost where I mean it's

definitely not run by my bank but run by

a private company finally which follows

the regulation so I can be worried where

like they took my photo multiple times

this morning I don't know what happens

with that photo so but I had a choice

not to use it I could have stood in the

line for 20 minutes multiple times and

so that's the choice I make so I think

in this new age world right we have to

practice there are few Services we are

we are getting access to

we should be

cognition of fact what happens with my

data whether it leaves my device or not

of what your time and purpose limitation

of that usage is is obviously that right

should stay with the owner of the data

us

uh but if we say okay no no I mean I

don't want any footprint of my my

activity to be accessed I think the only

way I see is like not use that device at

all or that service uh you know I don't

see anything I mean these algorithms

like Federated learning split learning

they I mean it's not like they reveal

nothing actually I mean they are very

private but uh in fact like um just to

add to this it's not about web 3.0 but

uh ma'am talked about differential

private models right

uh the RNA is differentially private

models are actually more unfair than any

other model

just by the mathematics of it you don't

even have to check it actually I don't

know so that's actually an area like I

think Professor Chaudhary was talking

about areas right I think if for for

young PhD students Mastery students I

think that would be very interesting

year because differential privacy is

here to stay

right with the gdpr and you know all

countries are becoming a very consumers

are becoming aware of of data privacy so

differential privacy is great but

unfortunately it is unfair

just by the mathematics so can we come

up with a fair DP algorithms uh it's I I

haven't seen any paper on it but I think

it's a it has to happen you can't say

okay fine I I let go of fairness but

I'll be more private or I'll be less

private but I want to be fair so both

are important and current methods are

contradictory unfortunately sorry I

don't have perfect answer worth

I would like to add uh maybe it won't be

a tangent let me try to make sure it is

not but it is a related point I think we

talk extremes

one thing is we say that all data is

available and the second extreme is none

of the data is available but there are a

lot of things in between including a lot

of people willing to sell their data if

there is a value to it

and there are in fact there are startups

there are business models around it

um

actually like most of the Enterprise run

Indus related like value-added services

do that whether we know about it that is

a separate thing maybe everybody should

learn about them like whenever you go

um let's say you sign up for that one

rupee Insurance

on any ticket that you buy

what does that mean

like that data you have sold you have

got an insurance for one rupee or 35

peso I think that is like I don't want

to say which one but

that 35 passer which otherwise you would

get for let's say 100 rupees

you got it for at a premium because you

decided I mean it's not the ai's problem

it's also the user's problem as

Professor Chaudhary was saying it is

inspired by the different business

models

um that is one aspect to it it's the

other aspect to it is

I mean from a technical perspective

there is also the pre-trained models and

fine-tuning of models so web 3.0 kind of

enables or puts more on us owners on

maybe the model developers to be more

fine-tuned models and as we see in the

last five to eight years of AI research

that trend is becoming more and more

popular so I think it is addressed to

some extent but not in a like a Puritan

fashion I would say

so

I don't know if that was useful

any other questions

quite a few questions

so I'm just adding a statement to the

going discussion that

um what I believe that data is

definitely getting out of the system of

the devices but it's not being indulated

with the user itself it's the

interrelation between the data and the

user that's not being disclosed so

that's how we are maintaining the

privacy and everything but data is

definitely getting all the systems in

the form of hashtags or links or the

geographical locations itself

are you saying that that should not

happen or that is a fact that is a fact

actually isn't it I mean I would like

you to comment on that maybe a fact for

certain uh products and services and it

may not be a fact like it's not

universally true as what gaurav was

saying that there are systems like in

Android there is a mechanism in apple

there is a mechanism and they are not

like just for the sake of development

they are actually proven and there are

like similar to what lipica earlier's

mentioned about gdpr I think there are

data regulations which are strictly

followed but it happens all the time

like even 30 years 40 years ago when

people were buying or buying stuff based

on coupons that they cut out of the

newspapers

that is your data you are giving to some

marketing an agency just to add to visit

actually when I went to us to do my PhD

uh you know internet was it was still

dial up so you know there's no not much

of personalization I remember like my

roommate saying like here these so in us

they throw a lot of coupons in your

mailbox so the joke of the town was like

you know they know that you have

pregnancy in your room before you

realize it actually so they were doing

it even pre-internet era I mean internet

was not there as as richly as affecting

our lives we are not clicky anywhere

you're not buying anything Amazon was

still just a bookstore so right so so

they knew what you will need before you

knew when they had some error I am sure

and to respond to your point right so

it's a choice you make right see all

apps take your permission I mean the

problem is we don't read it we just say

okay okay okay and okay

so that's the choice we are making

because I don't think these big gaps

unless you you know I'm pretty sure

there are millions of apps right and

unfortunately there are a lot of shady

ones uh so as long as we stay away from

them I think whatever is is done is

actually known to you whether you read

terms and conditions or you provide okay

or not or service may not work for

example for Ola and Uber if you don't

give location data it will not work yes

yes so they track you for that duration

yeah they should not track you once your

ride is over

right if they are doing it that's wrong

right because they have no business to

track you after that but during the

right they have to or a driver they say

I mean a driver on Ola or Uber they have

to drive all the time if they are on the

job they have a track all the time so

again I think the the what is the

concept of the user or the driver in

this case right constant is the key

whether data is being shared we should

not be over you know you know as he said

don't talk extremes because it's

unfortunate then we will we are going

away from the utility of AI we can be

the uh no no I will not use it yeah cars

are bad I flew by plane this morning it

is very bad for environment

uh right I can blame Richard for it but

that's okay right I mean it like for one

day trip I I don't know how much of uh

how much ton of carbon dioxide added to

my carbon footprint it is bad

right so so we have to be a little

practical constant is important

awareness is important then let's decide

whether it is worth sharing my data or

not and actually there are monetary

paradigms where user may get some

monetary or some other benefit from it

and they are they are coming up as we

speak so so I would just suggest like

let's again borrowing from with it which

is rare because we typically fight more

than we agree it's like let's not talk

extremes I think let's be reasonable and

look solve the problem with the right

checks and balances yeah so definitely

regulations and concerns regulations

have been made and consensus have been

taken uh but like it's it's there is a

fine there's a there is this line that

the data that's been going out it should

be anonymous that's why you know people

are eager to share the data because it's

a non-image

any other questions

first of all uh thank you for the

insightful session so I have a question

if we focus on making responsible AI too

much uh would it in any way stop us from

making something new and exciting which

will change the future in a

revolutionary way in a positive way

I won't be as well

start with the clarification do you have

an example

which can be positive but not

responsible in the going forward way

so uh if uh in case of face recognition

if people would have thought of biases

and ethnicity at the beginning

they may not have created something

which we have today so we can improve on

that after we have made the model so

that it will not stop us it will not

hold us back yeah so that is why we have

this iterative development of product

right you do V1 YouTube V2 and and so on

and so forth just like the professor

Chaudhary also mentioned about the cars

getting improved over and over the over

the decades right you do not make the we

do not make the electric car when Henry

Ford came up with the Ford automobile

right so you make progress in a way now

to coming back to your original question

I do not think of these as inhibitor of

making a large or big big Innovations

right these are part rails these are

essentially keeps you on the right track

but this does not stops you from moving

fast in the track so that you can reach

new destination break new barriers in

the way so that's a philosophical answer

to it but in an overall sense I do feel

that it is always important to keep the

right questions in mind

solve for the smaller samples of Scorpio

problem and so on and so forth so that

you could keep making progress

anybody want to add

what I would like to also add is uh

working on AI research AI Technologies

is different from building a product

which is going to the end user which is

using that technology so definitely you

are very right if people didn't think of

building this system which you know you

can give a text prompt and an image

would come out which is creative Etc

that's a very uh very interesting

application a very nice research area

now I think the question is also on how

to adopt it adopt it for systems which

will be in the hand of end users and

which will be doing some activity like

say for example uh in like prediction of

whether to give a loan to a person

whether to or face recognition you say

now the key point was not with face

recognition face recognition is a very

old problem which you know know gained a

lot of accuracy with lot of faces

available the problem was that it was

trained and used for a for a set of for

a particular region and so when that

algorithm was Unleashed on some other

part of the globe it didn't work well it

can be adopted so the point is we can

make the system responsible by ensuring

that we have all coverage of all kinds

of faces all kinds of skin colors all

kinds of shapes everything in our system

and make the algorithm work so we are

talking about multiple different uh

things here definitely too much of

Regulation and not making the technology

progress is not not good

and just to add a question to the

panelist

um see when when humans are biased

we say it's okay

when when systems are biased we don't

agree to that statement like we actually

go all like all guns at how can

naturally AI be biased

so um what is the take on by the

panelist maybe uh we'll start with Dr

Chaudhary

so this question probably to all of you

first

on the request of the final list first

of all is it okay

or what do you think about it what's

your take

I have not answer it but I'll give you

an example

when I drive a car I die in the crash

it's a very classical example it's more

acceptable than if I am flying and the

plane crashes even though probability of

plane crashing is much less

this is exactly what it is

any other take

so I think actually this is more

dependent on nature because when like

you said that when human is biased we

say it's okay because we are expecting

human to be a biased because it's a

human nature

but when we think of a machine we expect

it to be completely correct in any sense

so that could be one and the second is

that when a human is there like me I am

not used by anyone

I am really interact with someone so

if I am biased it is not that much

matter but if we are using a system

like right now commercializing and

industrially AI is progressing a lot in

that sense bias could be affecting their

consumer rate and others as well too so

that could be a possible answer

so we'll explain the same

similar to what he said like the way

machines are marketed like their cell is

always correct so

the limitation should be listed

beforehand if there is any and number

two sometimes we also adapt like uh if

there are some mistakes in terms in say

Google search or chat GPT we basically

change the prompts to the way that it

can understand so the intensity of the

problem is also means intensity of the

biases of also miters

hey one question to the last two points

you mentioned that your your you are not

a machine so you are not used by anyone

imagine you are a politician

you are biased

imagine the influence of scale of

influence on the extent of influence you

can draw

so

it's not it's not probably Fair sorry

I'm doing nitpicking but I just wanted

to point across the point

so you know I'm taking advantage of this

biased stage where I do represent only

uh one person so there is bias uh in

real life so

um this is not biased this is something

that has happened because of age-old

bias so when actually those algorithms

you know brought out the bias that

existed in the data say for example in

the criminal system when it was found

that a particular system that was

trained on past data for Chicago Police

it when a black person committed a crime

it suggested a same crime was committed

by say a black and white it was

suggesting a larger fine or an

imprisonment for the black and less uh

stringent uh results for the white

person now it actually a bit why because

that's what it learned from the existing

data so in that case it exposed the bias

so I really feel that in many cases the

buyers that existed in the humans AI

algorithms have really helped in

exposing the bias that existed in the

data of course there were certain cases

where it went faulty so because there

were only white males uh in a software

job so therefore when it was a

prediction system trained on that data

was used for predicting who would be

shortlisted for the desktop they only

kept on shortlisting white males but

again uh that was not exactly a bias

that was a bias in the data itself and

so therefore uh

corrective steps had to be taken to not

use the system and basically uh you know

retrain it with other data or in be more

inclusive now that's the rule so bias is

there that can be exposed and that has

to be uh eliminated also uh that's what

I think would make a Dependable system

I'll just add very I think lipika put it

in a very excellent Manner and uh I

think it is important even though we

joked about a different use case and

detailed

um discussions on use cases I think

in addition to us thinking about AI as a

utility and building more and more

creative use cases and sometimes often

taking bias or risk being responsible at

the backstage in the beginning

I think we are not in the early stages

of AI anymore we are also in a very

Advanced stage where we have very AI is

pretty much everywhere in all the

systems including your OS scheduling so

think from that perspective that we are

not really in the early days of AI at

this point if we don't talk about being

responsible then we are not doing right

as leaders

um so we that is why this topic is

extremely essential it is also like I

think I really liked the pyramid that

Mike had in his slides about the

different dimensions of responsible AI

being fair being the models being

explainable and there are several other

components that go into it

sustainability

um and all of that like this discussion

is not about being responsible or not

responsible it's about acknowledging the

diff this as a important aspect or facet

about AI research and AI model

development

that is what I would like to add

so just to get back to mayank's question

right why is human and AI systems it's a

big deal

I think it is the extent again basically

piggybacking on the extent of influence

and the reach of it right see as a human

being if personally if maybe I am biased

right that would probably impact less

than maybe a global leader or a big CEO

of a company or somebody who is biased

so both of us make a public statement

which shows buyers that one is going to

call a lot of lot of attention similarly

for AI which has a much broader and

bigger reach than an average human being

and that's why it's a big deal and of

course also AI has the ability to

amplify and all those things right so

that's why it is a big deal and human

kill is still chalta

answer

but I think we should as aie

practitioners we should be proud of it I

think so you know we should set higher

standards anyway we should not say you

know it's unfair to AI I think it's good

for researchers you have a harder

problem to solve so we have our jobs to

keep so you should be happy about it I

think

it's the feature of the problem

the point which is important and

interesting is

actually is opening up new areas of

research

and that's coming from the gaps which

are very clearly identified

so therefore this these relationship

makes these problems these problems very

significant and useful that's that's the

ultimate calling

defense

10 years ago not expectations now we can

do amazing so we want them to respond

just that we are asking

when we will ask

so it's like more right

yeah

catch up with humans and this is that

like finding new problems like okay this

is done let's find new problems to solve

this is maybe a cannot I don't know

sure

so there is this Theory uh which we use

in the field of management it's come

from Bruno latur uh actor Network Theory

so there they uh advise you just passed

away a few months back uh that when you

are looking at sociological interactions

if you do not look at machines if you do

not look at formats if you do not look

at technologies that human being are

using you will be doing an a grossly

incomplete uh assessment of what is

happening even in the field of you know

usual social interactions and field of

management now the question that you ask

uh why are you a human being and versus

a system

so there they look at a system as

congealed wisdom

so because what that the system that

you're talking about is now congealed so

not only is it maybe more powerful in a

structural sense but it is now there so

if I put for example a brick here and

you trip over it you can blame today's

organizers but if I make something which

is like a brick and is here forever that

is a much bigger problem because it is

there to stay so that congealment is

what I think creates that uh fear or

that feeling of too much of Injustice is

what I felt by one human being versus a

system a human being is always a work in

progress as Professor Chaudhary was

saying that don't know where it can go

but once you congeal it it's like

it's my thought

s thank you uh maybe one last question

in the interest of time we are running

quite late considering the diversity

I'll give it to the lead here

uh so by one question is like here we

are saying that the level of biasedness

in the human like a politician should

not be that much biased that can a

person so that thing also in the AI

model like what kind of measurement or a

quantitative value should we follow to

measure biasedness to explainability

like these things

click moderate should be hundred percent

bias free like can we accept these

models like if model 100 buys free then

we can easily deploy in real life it

goes back to my as I said imagenet

movement for bias or fairness has not

happened it's hard to Define actually we

know when something is unfair but if I

ask you to write everything that can be

unfair about a specific AI system it's

very hard and you are right I don't know

answer is we don't know as a community I

think that's why we it is still an

afterthought once we know what it is we

can put a loss function and do your

multitask training so it's easy we know

the tools

problems we don't we can only say that

it is unfair but we we can't list all of

it that's my take at least so when we

said that a model bias tree then it

should be 100 yeah I don't think any

model can claim that because of the same

reason because our metric is not well

defined

I wanted to make a joke but I should

stay away from it

yeah see if you know the dimensions of

buyers

there are ways of measuring right for

example if you want to measure that

whether a model is biased with respect

to gender right then you can set up

tests and there are metrics by which you

can measure that it is biased against or

for on particular gender but the

challenge is that we do not always know

these dimensions of the bias and that is

why it is difficult to set that up

so that's I hope that answers the

question
this ethnicity I mean it explodes

yes

activities

no no it wasn't uh it wasn't a joke

actually like from a from a model

implementation perspective if you're

thinking about deep learning models then

you might also want I mean this could

this is potentially some

um less explored ideas that when we are

training different layers

even if we have an incomplete measure of

bias even if we have not imperfect data

sets we can still in like in a way

include that measure of bias at

different layers when we evaluate that

when we are training the different loss

functions for let's say the top layers

which have a bigger impact on the end

outcome as opposed to the bottom layers

or like the base architecture versus the

heads so all of those things I think it

is an open question as I think all of

the esteemed like um

panelists are also saying that these are

open areas of research and one we can

think about from a design perspective we

can think about from an evaluation

perspective better data sets better unit

tests better loss functions and we can

actually think about better

architectures also

so all of this is open and that is why

it is extremely important that we are

talking about these really like edge

cases or we are talking about stick

Cutting Edge or state of the art of AI

we are not talking about

doing a retrospect

we need to think of responsible AI as

the path forward because we have done

already and we should be proud and happy

and now we need to make a bigger jump

into the technology into serving the

humanity and also doing like just well

for ourselves

because with it didn't tell the joke I

thought we were telling a joke so I'll

tell some real anecdote with my son so

when he was like really young he started

to speak it so you walk around and then

I mean kid has to realize whether

someone is uncle or Auntie right I mean

he did ask I mean so what can we

answered so my stupid answer was if

someone has long hair that's auntie and

but guess what after a few days you saw

a guy with a long hair and he called him

auntie I mean so I had to change like

it's not always true

the other thing was how someone is Didi

in India or auntie in India so our

definition was someone is a kid along

with them they'd say auntie and they

don't have kids I mean so that's how we

also do with kids but eventually it's

true actually so uh eventually they

figure it out so but you have to

initialize your model somewhere so

that's how AI has been initialized

hopefully we'll get better at it thank

you so much hopefully that brought the

made up for the missing joke thank you

everyone for for the wonderful

discussions

to uh give uh the token of appreciation

to our esteem panelists

so self-loop is about this

it's not really good

and that looks a little bit about open

for your schedule

but you think about it

I think next one

sure

um so with that this session ends uh

we'll go for a poster session and a

break and then after that we'll start

the next session

thank you very much

since

then

well I think he knows him

foreign

speaking against

are you doing

Trump

foreign

selection hi Dr Jane am I Audible

yeah I can hear you

hear me okay

uh

audible to you

yes you are can you hear me

great because you're not to us so we're

just figuring out what exactly is the

issue just give us a minute

huh

is

[Music]

thank you

[Music]

thank you

foreign

foreign

perfect okay I'm just sharing my screen

now

um can you see it

it's coming up
yes it it is up

okay good sign perfect my sincere

apologies we're just running behind

schedule around 10 15 minutes

so

I think we'll be starting up in the next

10 minutes or so maximum Avinash is here

would be anchoring the entire discussion

he is a PhD research scholar at IIT

jodhpur and he will sort of introduce

you first and then the virtual device

will be all yours so if you could just

bear for around 10 minutes with us

okay

foreign

technical

okay

foreign

it's

right

so let's stop doing but still

absolutely

foreign

foreign

foreign

foreign

okay

foreign

respected dignitaries eminent speakers

faculty members Scholars

and students I Avinash Chauhan

and I shweta PhD Scholars from School of

Management and Entrepreneurship IIT

jodhpur once again welcome you all to

the Third Edition of Industry day at IIT

jodhpur

so far we have witnessed wonderful and

prolific sessions since morning which

might have traveled many of the students

and Scholars Thoughts with regards to

Technology Innovation and sustainability

now we are moving towards our next theme

that is intelligent and neural marketing

ever since the digital era the business

environment has become more smart and

aware regarding every Dynamics which are

caused due to Smart moves of the

opponent or a new player not only in

terms of the usage of Technology but

also in terms of usage of technology to

interpret to analyze the behavior

practices choice of the customer and

consumer and this itself lands business

into a highly intellectual task to

perform best in the industry now the

question is how well that's the reason

we are here for now I would like my

co-host shweta to please proceed ahead

with the event

thank you Avinash now let me take the

opportunity to introduce our keynote

speaker for the session intelligent and

marketing all the way from United

Kingdom Dr Jane Layton vice president

Nielsen IQ basis Nielsen IQ basis is the

world's leading consumer Neuroscience

Organization for over a decade Nielsen

IQ has provided unparalleled insights

into the emotions and behaviors of

consumers

Jane leads the advertising practice in

Europe where she and her team design and

execute research to uncover consumers

true responses to Brands advertising and

products

using range of Neuroscience tools they

are able to give granular insights to

help boost creative Effectiveness Jane

has a background in science with a PhD

in cognitive Neuroscience from

University College London her research

focused on automatic non-conscious

processes and learning she specializes

in applying her scientific knowledge to

under understanding consumers responses

to marketing materials Jane has also

worked in the consumer Neuroscience

field since its Inception pioneering the

use of a number of Behavioral biometric

and neurological Technologies

Dr Jane it's an absolute pleasure and

honor to host you virtually at IIT

jodhpur let's welcome Dr Jane Layton

with a huge round of applause

mum you can please share your screen

thank you very much for the kind

introduction and thank you very much for

for having me today

um I'm excited to

um to share this with you just now so

I'm just sharing my screen hopefully

that will all work

um seamlessly

can somebody give me a thumbs up and

tell me that they can see

um see the presentation

going to take that as a yes okay

um so I'm going to tell you

um today about

um how we use Neuroscience

um with our clients at uh Nielsen IQ and

before I start just to give you a brief

overview of what I mean when I say

Neuroscience so the kind of things that

we are doing

um require people to come into our Labs

a central location and we pop a cap on

their head and we measure their brain

response using EEG or

electroencephalography and I'll go into

that a little bit more detail as we go

through and there are lots of different

ways that we can apply

kind of technique to really help our

clients to create those Superior Brands

Communications

there's lots of different ways we apply

it we apply it to clients video ads and

understand

we also help them with their strategy

and their brand positioning we can help

them and

what their brand really means to

Consumers what is the essence of that

brand we also apply it to help clients

with their packaging

to look at a couple of pack designs and

see which one might be the winner we can

apply it to in-store materials point of

sale materials for example and then

finally we also apply it to product

experiences so we bring people into our

Labs we have them interacting with

products and we're measuring their brain

response as they do that so there's a

there's a really wide range of

applications for this tool I mostly work

in the on the left hand side of this

screen so I work on the on the ads and

The Branding a little bit in the product

so today I'm going to focus on the

advertising side of things but once you

see how we apply this to advertising

um you'll also know how we apply it in

the pack space or the product space

because our approach remains pretty

similar

um regardless of what kind of questions

we are answering

so just to go back a step

um and think about why it is that we use

Neuroscience why don't we just stick to

what we've done for decades which is

surveys why don't we just ask people

um what they think about ads

facts or about products

well as you probably know very well

um we can't get everything that we need

um simply

it's not just that people don't want to

tell us or they're trying to lie it's

that people don't necessarily have

conscious access to all of their mental

processes their thoughts and feelings

and with Neuroscience we are able to

capture both the conscious and the

non-conscious reactions that consumer

has consumers have so it's that really

complete understanding thing of how

people respond to whatever we put in

front of them and we have been doing

this for many years now so we have lots

of databases we have validated our tools

and we've tested over 10 000 ads now

um worldwide with this approach so we've

got a lot of expertise in understanding

this data and using it to help solve our

clients business questions

the other thing that we do at um at

Nielsen which might be a little bit

different from other places is we make

sure we have a neuroscientist PhD

involved in every project that we do so

that means any client that works with us

gets somebody with that Neuroscience PhD

to help us really make sure that we're

setting up good experiments to make sure

that we're interpreting the data

correctly and also just to make sure

they get all that lovely expertise that

that scientists have

um about how the brain works about

Behavioral Science and Neuroscience

which clients really get a lot from

the other real really nice thing about

using Neuroscience is it gives us a

tremendous amount of detail so much more

detail than than you could get really

any other way so I'll show you a bit in

a minute but essentially we get a second

by second read on how consumers respond

to an ad and having that super detailed

understanding is really useful to our

clients because it helps them see what

works and what doesn't and how they

would then be able to optimize their

advertising and that is something that

they really value it helps them

um make their ads better it helps them

make shorter ads which might be suitable

for digital and it helps them just get

better over time with this culture of

continuous Improvement understanding

what works what doesn't for me and my

brand

um and using that to just get better

over time so um that's why we're doing

this I'm going to now turn to a little

bit more detail

we actually carry out these these

neuroscience

so I'll start with this video um that

hopefully plays okay

um shows you a little bit about what

goes on in the lab when a respondent

comes in
um to take part in our research um how

it looks for them

foreign

okay so hopefully that just gives you a

little flavor of what it's like

um for someone coming in to our lab to

do our research

um if I was there maybe I could have

brought one of our EG caps and I could

have showed you the one that you saw

just then is actually the old equipment

that we were using

um we now have new equipment that we use

that you can see on this page and that

is really transforming the way that

we're able to

is because it's much more portable it's

much more easy to administer so it's

going to really help us when it

expanding

which I'll talk about

so essentially we use a number of tools

to to help understand

so the one that we use most of all and

the one where we really focus on is EEG

and EEG is

about how people respond emotionally

um how they risk how their memory system

reacts how much attention they're paying

we can also get lots of information

about whether or not is communicating

the brand and the key messages and that

the client asks to communicate we

combine that EEG with eye tracking which

is really nice because we're able to get

an understanding of both where people

are looking what captures their visual

attention but also at the same time how

is their brain responding so really nice

to have this combination of measures it

gives us a huge amount of granularity

when we combine the two we also have

some self-report so we have a short

questionnaire that we add at the end and

this is mostly qualitative to get an

understanding of likes dislikes and

message take out from whatever we've

shown

um shown to our participants

so what do we manage to measure from the

so we're able to measure some really key

brain systems that we know are linked to

decision making so one of the ones

that's really interesting and really

right is we measure this emotional

motivation or a lean in response and

that's really that's really useful when

it comes to advertising because we're

really understanding are people on the

edge of their seats during my ad or are

they kind of leaning away losing

interest or even just pulling back from

the content

we also measure memory Activation so

this is really helping us understand

how relevant the content is how much I

can link it to the other information I

already have in my memory

then we also measure attention

processing and this is really telling us

um how focused somebody is

um on the content attention is an

interesting one because it can be a

really good

focus in on your content

um really kind of working hard to

understand what's going on but it

sometimes can indicate that the content

is a bit confusing and so we have to be

really careful with attention that we

interpret it correctly and we really

understand our people

um really working hard and enjoying it

or are they working hard and it ends up

being a bit confusing

so we will

um we will give these um these measures

to clients
um our scores on on a database as I

mentioned

ad so we're able to compare how one ad

does compared to all those thousands

and then the the really cool thing is

being able to look at these measures on

a second by second basis and that's the

I think the really interesting part

because it tells us

um second by second how people react to

the content so

um are they really drawn in at the intro

or are they just completely confused by

it are they disinterested

um and so this level of detail is really

nice and it's it would be really hard to

get at this level of detail any other

way

then the final thing that we do with EEG

is use it to understand

um what does that advert convey what

does it

so we do a pre-post measure where we

show participants

birds and a load of Brands and we

measure their their brain response their

Erp response then we show them the ad

and then we do the same exercise where

we show them the words and the brands

afterwards and we're looking for a list

in this range response after they've

seen the ad so if this allows us to

quantify the degree to which so that

this ad is communicated a brand or a key

message

but all of this ends up being

um really really useful for helping

understand

um is an ad going to work or not so the

two measures that we really focus on for

this are um action intent which is a

combination of emotion and memory and

brand resonance which is what I just

described a moment ago which is how well

are you able to communicate your brand

um within that and we've done lots of

work until now to show that these

measures are really predictive for real

world Behavior

so they're not just

um us looking at the brain and and

finding interesting things to look at

they are actually really predictive of

sales

um real world behavior

um and that's kind of the most important

thing about doing this kind of research

that it does truly um predict real world

Behavior
a lot about what we do and and How We Do

It um what I think is really useful is

to just show you how we apply this with

a case study because I think it helps

bring it to life

um a little bit more so this case study

is

um from some work that we did with a

client and I'm not going to show you the

ad for confidence

but it's an ad um that talks a lot about

the five senses and then in particular

focuses that

sense of smell is

so what we do is we have a look at how

the ad performs overall the client wants

to know is it a good AD should I put it

on air or

um is it no good

worried or I need to

so what we see is on those two

performance indicators as I mentioned

action intent and brand resonance it's a

mixed bag so it doesn't do so well on

action intent so it's not managing to

really

um draw people in and engage people in

the way that they want but it is doing a

good job at communicating the brand

um so if we shared this with a client

they would it would probably be a bit

sad because this is an ad that's not

performing in the way that we um or they

would hope that it will perform

but the really nice thing about

Neuroscience is it takes us much further

than this so typically with a standard

approach you tend to get very very top

line information about whether something

works or not but you aren't necessarily

able to go into the details and that's

what's really nice about being able to

use Neuroscience here is that we get

much more detail so we get this second

by second read on how people are

engaging with their content and this is

probably what people value most so we

can see that right at the start of the

ad

um people really lean in they're really

hooked in by the um

and that's

interesting faster on our that's

um that's where an ad is effective when

it's

done but we see there are these moments

where people are pulling away people are

disengaging from the content and these

are the moments that we want to focus on

to um to really help client to optimize

and participate better

so let's take a look at what's happening

the second line is where we have this

real drop off

people are really leaning in and then

all of a sudden they're they're not so

interested anymore and if we have a look

at what's happening in this moment we've

got a man and he is carrying a boat um

and at the same time we're talking about

our base so

um we have people looking at him but in

particular we see from the eye tracking

that they're zoned in on his armpits at

the same time as talking about taste so

that's a really unfortunate combination

we don't want to think about taste at

the same time as singing so it's a

really small thing but it makes quite a

big difference and it's something that's

quite easy for a client to fix it's

we can have a look in even more detail

at those three measures that we capture

the motion memory and attention

exactly what's going on in this moment

so we go from having people with this

really high emotions so the red line

shows that people are really leaning in

to what they're seeing and then as soon

as you see the armpit and start talking

about taste the people away from that

content that they disengage so this is a

real area of opportunity

um to help make the art vessel optimize

it

we see something similar fattening later

on in the ads they do a very similar

thing essentially where they show feet

and start talking about smell and nobody

wants to think about smelly feet again

we get good

um we get this pull away from the from

the content and again it's something

that can be fixed quite easily after

after the fact so this is the kind of

thing that we're able to do with

Neuroscience get those really granular

learnings on what works and what doesn't

and work with clients to to help them

make their creative better to help them

make their products or their packaging

better as well and I just want to share

our product threshold with physique

client so they did a lot of testing with

us and then they would make the changes

that we recommended and then

and what we're able to show is in most

all cases we're able to help them

improve their advertising so we're able

to take help them take ads from being a

not great performer to being an above

average performer and that's the real

power of Neuroscience

it's good or it's bad it's helping

actually improve

um the content help improve the work

so I just want to finish by talking or

giving a summary of the work that we've

carried out today

um so we've we've been doing this for

around 15 years

um pots Nielsen for just over 10 years

we've worked across 30 countries we've

now done more than 15. which means we've

got four people

um using this EEG approach

um that's that's worldwide in India

we've done

um over 1 500 studies across 80 plus

clients and just to tell you a bit more

about our

um our story in India so in in 2012

um the the neuro business was

um India it was operating primarily from

Bangalore

and then in 2013 we got our own

neuroscientist based in India and to

meet that client demand that was

building

and in 2015 we started to expand

um across India to other regions we

opened a lab in Mumbai

um there was a mega launch apparently

um so things

yeah we also um our signal processing

group is based in India so um they're

the people that analyze the data for us

and

um there's been huge work done to

automate that data analysis to a few

timelines to make it more efficient for

the clients to use

in 2019 we took on second

neuroscientists in um in India and we

started reintegrating both the system

one approaches like Neuroscience with

the system two approaches like survey so

everything was going really well

um up until 2019 and 2020 and then we

all remember what happened 20 a big

pandemic came along

so we um our research is face to face

and we couldn't do that research anymore

um and um all that great

um build up of demand and a resource in

India and the same thing happened in

Europe
um it was paused and it was a lot of it

went away

um and we're only now in the position of

being able to re-establish in Europe

around the world so we started off in

North America setting things coming up

again we are in the process of setting

things up in Europe and so I joined a

year ago to help with that the next in

the plan is is establishing

a neuroscience capabilities in India

that will be happening in the next

couple of months we'll be starting with

Mumbai

so um thank you very much for your

um for your attention I look forward to

us

again in India soon

is there any questions please do

thank you so much Dr Jane for setting up

the pace for the event

the floor is open for questions

um anybody would can ask the questions

if they have

greetings Jane I am ketan from MBA first

year and my question to you is like uh

if if there's a company and it produces

a specific product cognitive product

based on some uh like which helps in

curing some kind of genetic disorder for

example ADHD or Parkinson or Alzheimer

so what would be the probably your

eligible consumers for that because

uh after going through a website I found

out that the eligible set of consumers

are healthy consumers and in case of a

product which is based on uh genetic

disorder curing a genetic disorder so

what would be the set of eligible

consumers for the same

yeah so that would be really tricky for

us because

um we are quite careful about who we

recruit for a neural study we want to

make sure that

um Everybody the group that we recruit

are quite similar so we're always

analyzing all of the data at a group

level

um because we need that statistical

power but also from an ethical

perspective that is what we are

committed to do now have a look at

individual level data so four groups of

people with developmental disorders or

genetic differences we probably wouldn't

be able to do that because we need

everybody to be as similar as possible

and they would end up being lots of

variation in the data and so we do

mostly stick to your

um your usual consumer packaged Goods

products like

um shampoo and chocolate bars and beer

and things like that rather than

um very specialist Pharma project

products

thank you

anybody else

can someone please pass on the mic over

there

yeah hi so just

hear anything I don't know if that's

still don't hear anything

thanks

oh I heard something then

good evening

hello

I can hear you now Jane am I Audible

as you are now so the question is there

in the chat box

wait

or or I can ask the question directly

based on the last question I was asking

for example if you're working with a

shampoo brand itself but you're

recruiting their target audience right

how would you make sure uh the people

that you're recruiting to test the ad

are not belonging to any special group

like EDD ADHD or in learning disorder or

something like that

so when we

um recruit we either have in-house

recruiters or we use we work with

recruitment agencies and we do we have

got quite a strict screening protests to

make sure that those people

um obviously it's what they say and we

have to believe what they say but to

make sure those people don't have any

developmental disorder but also to make

sure that they meet the the needs of the

client so

um let's say we're testing cat food we

need people who have cats

um if we're testing a particular

Financial Services product it needs to

be people that are eligible for that

Financial Services product so yeah we're

quite um strict with our recruiters to

make sure they find us the correct

people

same as any kind of um consumer research

really yeah so if you're already using

EEG why not try qeeg to filter out

because if the entire data set is is in

the normal range so there is no uh I

would say nobody is out of uh three

standard deviation or nobody is in any

of the patterns that they would fall in

case of learning disorder or radiately

that we can use that process to recruit

rather than relying on the qualitative

data

when we actually do the analysis

um we are also looking and making sure

that there isn't too much noise in the

data so

um I think we would see it if there were

people that were real outliers in the

way that they were reacting and I think

we would um exclude those participants

so sometimes we over recruit in fact we

always over recruit and end up excluding

participants whose data doesn't really

look right but we haven't applied it in

the way that exactly in the way that

you're saying and that might be

something for us to look at in the

future

thank you that answers my question

uh thank you Dr Jane so we have uh

another set of questions from the PHD

Scholars

I hope uh I'm Audible

yeah okay so uh what are your views on

consumer Neuroscience especially

neuromarketing what is the use case of

neural marketing tools since it is still

at a nascent stage for the industries

so how far the industries have reached

in actually making use of neuromarketing

tools for getting positive results

yeah that's a really good question so um

it does still feel quite new even though

we've been doing this for over a decade

and it does take time to um to move

people away from what they're used to

doing if you spend 40 years using a

particular methodology a survey

methodology

to ask people to shift to something

completely new is hard so it it has been

a slow process but we are now getting to

the point where we see some client

clients completely commit to a

neuro-based approach for all of their ad

testing so obviously the goal is that we

have many many clients do that as many

as possible the big guys out there and

that's the goal we're not there yet but

we are starting to see some big

multinational clients and make that

switch

um so I think we're getting there it's

just it's gonna take

um it's going to take a lot more time

yes I agree since the tools are so

expensive so I think it would take a

little bit more of time yeah it is

expensive and it does take

um it takes a while so you're not going

to get a 24-hour readout on your ads

with this approach and that is what some

clients want and then that's fine you

can use a different approach but if you

really want the depth of learning then

that's what this is really great at

doing

okay so uh I would request the audience

to ask any more questions if they have

okay

hi Jane am I Audible

well yeah I have questioned that what is

the average sample size for you know any

study that you conduct

another good question so that was that's

the one that we get asked um a lot by

clients so um typically we're talking

about 24 to 30 participants and that's

if we're testing one

example

when we start testing more things then

we need to have more groups

and we find that clients think that's a

really small sample size

um for in within Academia that's not a

small sample size but

clients

feel that that's enough

um so we have done lots of work to

demonstrate that that is enough people

for robust results so we've tested 25

people got a set of results then tested

125 people only compared and we haven't

seen any significant differences okay

and what is the lowest sample size that

you know you would be able to do away

with

I'd say it's the lowest we would go and

that would be if we were doing

um single gender study so if we were

doing just females for example

um if we're doing males and females we

wouldn't go lower than 24. okay thank

you

any more questions

excuse me can you please pass on to my

good behind

oh hello Jane uh I hope I'm Audible

yeah

so as you said here you have been doing

it for like past 10 years so uh with the

introduction of short videos and your

Instagram reels the tension span of the

users have decreased to a lot large

action so what have you observed the

response of the new customers or new

viewers to the ad compared to the people

from like five years back

we haven't seen

um any big changes like that so

um

people of course are consuming media in

quite

um a different way and we're really well

placed to um to help with that because

we can help clients see

um at what point are you liking to lose

people so if you're watching a digital

ad at what point are people just going

to switch away and do something else or

go make a cup of tea or whatever so

we're really well placed but we haven't

seen

um those big differences in the way the

brain responds to content so a lot of

the things that we see are so

fundamental to to us as humans they're

not things that are going to change over

10 years they are fundamental things

that make us human such as we respond

really positively to social interaction

and that will not change

um that's always going to be something

that we see same with

um you know emotional faces or delicious

looking food those kinds of things

Universal and so basic that they still

do draw people in even in this new era

where there are so many distractions

thank you very much

anybody has any more questions

hello

yeah so my question is uh is neural

marketing posing a threat to ethical

marketing as it can be used to influence

the buying behavior of consumer and

giving an unfair advantage to certain

brands who are using it

it's an interesting one as well so I

don't think it is influencing in any way

so all we're really doing is measuring

response so it's what we've always done

in market research when we listen to

people's reactions

um and we do a focus group we're just

listening to somebody's response the way

we like to think about it is we are

putting a microphone on the brain so

it's just helping us to listen to

people's response a little bit better

we're in no way

um trying to influence people or do

anything really

um we're just trying to understand how

they react to a stimulus that we put in

front of them and so from that

perspective it's not really any

different from any other kind of market

research and when never asking people or

encouraging people to do something that

they don't want to do

um anyway

[Music]

um

okay so that would be the last question

so thank you so much Dr Jay and Jane

once again for answering so all the

questions

um so now we would like to take the

session forward and we would like to

hand over to paridhi and pradosika to

take the session forward

good evening everyone it is certainly an

honor to be present among such learner

dignitaries who are putting forth their

ideas today

so let us now introduce our eminent

speakers for the next session Mr bhupesh

Dinger is the director of enrich Salah

with more than 33 years of experience Mr

Dinger has been involved in setting up

and operating company owned and

franchisee or operated retail chains all

over India with experience across

Industries he has rapidly scaled up many

new businesses in the consumer internet

Telecom food and recently in the

services segment

he has always been part of high growth

brutally competitive Industries

including National roles at Kodak

Express and the explosive Telecom and

Retail Boom at Reliance he was a core

member of the startup team of Reliance

infocom and Reliance hypermarkets and

was involved in designing and

implementing all aspects of the business

he is also associated with multiple Iams

as a member of the Board of Governors at

I am raipur he is on the interview

admissions panel for I am Bangalore I am

trichy and I am nakpur he was nominated

by the worldwide leadership team to

present to represent India as a team

member of the future high potential

managers across all divisions at Eastman

Kodak Asia Pacific region welcome to IIT

jodhpur

our next speaker is Miss Dia Singh

founder and CEO of neuro hook a tech

Enthusiast marketing consultant and now

owning a firm which mixes signs with

marketing neuro hook helps Brands create

content thus remembered by integrating

neural marketing research with a lot of

quirk

at new to hook it is believed that

customers purchase with their

subconscious minds and the decisions are

also driven by their emotions

the organization has partnered with

multiple prestigious firms which include

MTV India Economic Times Global business

Summit Pentagon press Hindustan times

The Meta Factory and future group ma'am

has pursued her bachelor in fashion and

Apparel Design and Masters in

international marketing management from

Coventry University United Kingdom she

has a vast set of expertise which

includes consumer Behavior research

application of neuromarketing tools

data-driven storytelling content

marketing social media marketing and

strategic marketing thank you so much

for accepting our invitation and we

welcome you to IIT jodhpur

is the co-founder and CTO of newfaneem

India's first bearable EEG headband the

smart watch for your brain

miss Mr bhavya is the brain behind

neophony his in-depth knowledge in

neuroscience and embedded systems has

joined the dots between neurofeedback

and mediation designed in Germany

neophony comes with a mobile application

and a software development kit which can

be used by researchers developers and

also other businesses to develop their

application new funny is also setting up

its pod where people can physically

visit experience and start their

self-improvement Journey newfane's

mission is to change the reactive

approach towards the mental health

we are honored to have all three of you

here with us today let's have a huge

round of applause for all our guests

now I have the honor to invite onto the

Dias Mr bupesh dinga to share his

delightful thoughts and bag full of

experiences with us

let's go to this

yes okay

but

good evening

while this topic came up of neural

marketing first things I obviously did

was to Google it out okay

and then reading all the links you

realize

but is there a certain commonality to

all the topics there

is there a mix of biology somewhere mix

of psychology bits of Technology

and all combined with marketing and so

lovely multi-disciplinary

aspect to this topic

and then obviously you do the next step

you go beyond Google

and do something about every panelist

has done since morning I am sure what

the million other guys do get on to chat

gbt and see what do they think of

the subject interesting that the words

that came out on this

some words came out

of studying the consumer brain idea

measuring physical responses

the emotional management there and some

keywords of genetics a lot of lovely

words came out and this is what

this is what Chad Gypsy thinks is

neuromarketing

like Dr Jane mentioned

ultimately the thought in your brain

comes from two parts

there's an instinctive thought process

which is unconscious it's implicit which

is low effort is rapid

and that comes from the limbic part of

your brain

the primordial part of your brain

there's also a reflective part of the

brain I see some posters outside in the

postal session where I saw this the

prefrontal cortex of a brain the front

part of your brain that's more

deliberate that's more explicit that's

more thought through

and both these are thoughts in your

brain and both are these being fired in

the neurons inside

it's very similar to what Dr Jane said

based a lot on what Daniel kahnemann

said Thinking Fast and Slow

but the fact is

we think we use the reflective system

we think we are consciously taking a

rational decision

but very often it is the

subconscious non-conscious word that Dr

Jane used it is the intuitive biased

instinctive system that makes us do it

and while we think we are creatures of

rational thought it may not always be so

because all the instinctive stuff behind

us

gives rise to a lot of biases and we had

this fascinating discussion in the

previous session about biases

and there's a lovely question from the

audience and why do we expect bias on

the artificial intelligence topic when

we expect that yeah human beings will

have bias you could have an explicit

bias like he mentioned

in the previous speaker saying that

you know you go to the bias against

women and your gender race ethnicity

there could be a lot of implicit biases

around you could have you know and this

standard psychological biases going

around you could have a confirmation

bias you see what you want to see

and you that is the one that's operating

below the network that is the one that

is fast it leads us open to a lot of

biases and you have to overcome that

limbic thought process the term uses

limbic friction

you have to take an effort to say wow

I'm conscious of this bias and I have to

get away from it

because the fact is

if they can get you to choose

before you can think

they can get you to buy things you do

not need and that might be a very

cynical view of marketing but let me

read that again

if they can if they as in the market is

if they can get you to choose before you

can think and they are actually

influencing a thinking without you

knowing about it

they can get you to buy things that you

do not need okay do you really need that

extra

toothpaste an extra dress and that's

being influenced

but then you know what this amounts to

fraud

and no serious marketer does this

because in the long term it will

backfire

if the consumer thinks that she is being

manipulated

it will backfire so you can't do that

because ultimately the brain is a

prediction machine

the brain is designed to consider it's a

muscle

it is designed to conserve energy

it uses prior knowledge

of the world to make inferences it sees

some pattern in the surroundings it

makes a perception
those of you look at the image

if you look it on one side you think

it's a duck

if you look from the other side you

think it's a rabbit

and we make a perception based on our

biases without even knowing about it

because the brain is looking for a

pattern

the brain is looking for connecting the

dots based on its past experience

and the more ambiguous the input

the greater is the Reliance and prior

knowledge

we see what we want to see and you know

the famous visual on the right

because that is what is happening in the

brain without even you realizing it

it looks for patterns it relies on

following a pattern if you go back to

psychology there is a bandura social

modeling if I look at that kid on the

right he's standing exactly the way he's

supposed to stand because he sees his

dad standing that way his hands behind

his back

and that is the social modeling

and the brain is doing that

when that young kid grows up and stands

always in life he will stand at that

because he assumes that's what's

happening that's what the brain is

supposed to do

and the fact is there are so many times

unknown thoughts in your head

but the fun is actually the other way

around

the fun is when there is a thought in

your head which is unknown you don't

know it is there and suddenly when you

see it it's wow yeah like really

I always knew this is true

and those insights

those are Universal truths

and that's a lovely example

insights consumer insights and that's

the essence of marketing

the consumer side is universally

understood across cultures across

geographies

it's cross-cultural it is that aha wow

like exactly I relate to it

and any product campaign based on

insight

is much more likely to work

so I'll give an example

children

always

walk to school they always run home

it's a beautiful insightful is used in a

paradising campaign children across the

world always walk to school

and they always run home

is an example that cut across cultures

across continents and a very famous act

during my journey here

I had the privilege of being accompanied

by one of my PhD Scholars here

and he started chatting the car

and right there I got an insight and I

remembered in a famous ad

every child

thinks

hero worships a data

my daddy strongest was an extremely

famous ad that went on

and exactly the conversation I had with

this lovely lady here

the way we all hear worship our parents

the way we hero worship our dads is a

consumer in sight

that is operating deep down there at a

neural level

and any campaign any insight

based on such Universal truths will

always work

because ultimately we are creatures of

habit

the brain minimizes therefore taken

we think we are rationally taking

decisions

but we just are following a pattern

and any marketer

who can make you get into a habit

has won you over

he takes charge of your brain without

even knowing it

you are walking in the groove you think

you are doing a damn conscious decision

but it actually creatures of habit and

the interesting part

there are multiple

factors that go into

it's not only genetic it's not only

neural it could be epigenetic which

means in the environment it's

fascinating to see that pregnant women

were warned not to diet

because when the kids grew up

right in the feta stage there was they

thought there was no food around

they were increased likelihood of the

child later acquiring eating disorders

and that's fascinating

it's fascinating that it is pre-wired

because my mom went into dieting more

during pregnancy

my brain neural network

was pre-programmed

to say that whenever the shortest food

is overeat

now what is somebody influence in their

consumer Behavior the Pharaohs become so

out of much of obesity and that's

fascinating

all of us know this

that the human being has you know

circuit in Cycles what's interesting is

it if it goes beyond the 24 hour cycle

there is something called an infrared in

cycle not a circuit encyclop beyond that

women buy much more status symbols

at specific times during the monthly

cycle which is a fascinating Insight

beyond the 24 hours

can marketers tap into it somehow and

sell they don't even know that they are

being influenced because the hormonal

chemical Loach on your head

or the other way around

within the 24 hours of your day they're

all trading Cycles

which is when should you post your

social media when are you most likely to

get a click

it's fascinating that research the ease

sir Dr Jane talked about

shows that the maximum of clicks on

social media happen on Tuesdays

Wednesdays Friday 89 and one

is the level of influence that can

happen and you don't even know what's

happening inside your body why would

this be across cultures

something is up there happening in your

neural network

and that is so fascinating

a very different neural network

the sense of smell

you don't even know it you're not even

conscious of it

I remember the time and I used to be in

retail

and we used to run these large

hypermarkets

we were advised by the people who are

experts that take coffee spray and we

would spray it in the AC event

can you believe that a coffee spray the

smell of fresh coffee

the smell of fresh baking influences you

to buy more

because

the smell of fresh leather

you buy more furniture

you think it's leather was actually a

spray in our environment and that is the

effect of using a nose to ride directly

connected to your brain and olfactory

Network

the dopamine high that you get when you

do these things

it's fascinating that serotonin and

dopamine is a hard coat the happy

hormones in your head

are actually produced in a stomach

80 of the serotonin that you produce in

your head are used in your head is

actually coming from a stomach

there's a comfort food we all have

because it reminds me of certain things

and that's the happy hormones I can use

it differently

research shows for de-addiction is a

huge topic today they're trying to use

neural marketing there

when the person who's coming in for

de-addiction or smoking

at night while sleeping

they're trying to mix the smell of

cigarette smoke and a pungence order

so when you wake up the next day and you

go back to your smoke

the brain has already got influenced the

previous night

and you're mixing the two things and

that's all Factory stuff and you're not

even conscious of what is being done

because you are being influenced

and this Dr Robert cialry is extremely

famous

for the principled influence and this is

what is actually Basic Marketing all

about

there is reciprocity I've given you a

free sample you are more likely to try

my product

you don't know it

but actually there's you know you've

done good for me I will pay it back in

kind I tie you into a membership program

you're more likely to be loyal

commitment constituency

people by people who bought this product

also buy that product social proof

liking my kind of people have bought

this product Authority every ad today

has the pond Institute White Court

and you straight away put credibility to

it you don't know it but that's actually

being influenced

or scarcity the fear of missing out is

obviously there

but clearly this is how you are being

influenced

I'm sorry yeah this is how you're being

influenced

including and pricing

if you have a product with only one

model size you will sell lesser the

moment you put one on either side of it

and see the way a coffee shops branded

the differential in pricing that you see

will make you end up buying something

you don't even know about it and that is

being influenced at a very early neural

without even conscious about it

but as marketers get more severe

customers getting more cynical

in the every sale that goes on all of us

got used to provide up to 50 means what

now okay

up to 50 means there will be that one

little item in the back of We Are

which so that's the only size you've got

everything else is ten percent

customers getting more cynical today

unfortunately

because the fundamentals you can't

change you have to have much more

transparency

much more authenticity

the fact that today's social media is

influencers it means is because we know

that we have started believing ads

and then you come across paid

influencers

and the entire genre of paid influences

starts again corrupting the entire

system

The credibility is why you followed that

influencer is because you related to her

and then you felt cheated when you came

to know oh God this was also paid

and that is the essence of basic using

neuromarketing or intelligent marketing

you cannot get away from the basic thing

that

solving and adding value coming to the

right hand side will always be better

whether I do a b to b or a B to C it

doesn't make a difference these are

methods and channels and

stick to the basics get a good

Production Services right

because that is what will work in the

wrong term you may be influenced by all

the neural marketing going on but if you

don't base it on insight

or put it positive you should base an

insight and that is what will actually

build a brand

thank you so much

now the floor is open for question

answer amp
any questions

do we have questions

all right sir uh we do have a question

in our inboxes so let me please uh

foreign

so how how can the integration of

intelligent Technologies and consumer

Neuroscience enhance our understanding

of consumer behavior and decision making

processes

how can the integration of intelligent

Technologies and consumer neuroscience

enhance our understanding of consumer

behavior and decision making process

if you do the traditional survey

and you go and ask a bunch of questions

top of Mind unaided awareness all the

standard questions the fact is that

what happens in

the brain I will say what what comes out

of your mouth is not the best

articulation

what is going on inside your brain

it is affected by mood of the day your

mood at that point of time your choice

of words your language whatever happened

that day

one of the advantages of using

technology

is all the technology that was talked

about in terms of fmri in EEG you know

Meg or what all these words are all

right tracking it helps you not

influence actually Dr Jane righty

mentioned in answer to the question it

is it is your measuring

initially when we used to run ads none

of us knew is working or not

if it worked everybody claimed credit

the sales guy in the field

the production guy the designer and the

marketing guy every clip did it if it

didn't work in sales in go up none of us

knew

the advantage I think in answer the

question the advantage using technology

today is far more predictability far

more measurement much more in the

digital marketing space traditional

marketing was not as easily measurable

but with some technology with some

measurement that was talked about modern

technology you can at least get a better

degree of where your money was spread

was it useful or not I think that's what

the answer is

thank you so much sir do we have any

other questions

any questions
all right uh thank you so much sir for

sharing and giving the valuable and

enlightening this uh Gathering uh we

would like

now to take this opportunity to call one

of the dynamic entrepreneur who believes

in mixing science with marketing Miss

Diya Singh may we please have you on the

dice map

foreign

foreign

good afternoon ID

my name is diasing and I'm the founder

of neuro hook a marketing agency

specializing in visual branding and

content marketing

today I will be speaking about the

application of neural Marketing in the

social media space

so I believe that social media reflects

who we are what we like what kind of

food we eat what kind of places we like

to go to and it's since the secret of

marketing really does lie in the human

mind it seems obvious to focus on how it

works

according to me understanding attention

is the most important and interesting

aspect of neuromarketing I would like to

elaborate on this by playing a small

game with everyone out here so if I

could have everyone's attention because

you will have limited time to answer

ready

I want you to pick one card and remember

it you have five seconds

okay

now can you find the card

did it work

now the reason that this card trick

works is because I'm changing all the

cards

what this card trick tells us is that

retention is limited while you're

focusing on one card if you can't focus

on all the others the same way you can't

pour information through your system and

expect that your brain can capture all

that information because it's not going

to happen

attention can only focus on some things

at one time at the cost of other things

now there are several neural marketing

studies that have been conducted to

explore ways marketers can help direct

attention to the correct marketing

stimuli and that is what we at new to

hook apply we take new to marketing

studies which are already there peer

reviewed and we try to apply it in

outlines content

now let's dig deep into neuromarketing

tactics for social media something that

you can apply when you are Professionals

in the marketing space and now let's

start with the puzzle again because that

is an interactive way of you know having

the session I want you to imagine these

pictures and think of the common element

okay

a picture of a yawning person

a photo of an open fracture

and an image of a puppy licking his paw

now I did not put the open fracture

picture because it really grossed me out

but this is one such picture that could

get an overview now what happens is when

you imagine these pictures and in even

when you see these pictures there's this

very strong reaction in our bodies in

the first case we yawn because when you

see someone yawn we do yawn in the

second case we look away because it's

disgusting and in the last image we

smile because it's a poppy now these

reactions are caused by something called

as middle neurons which are responsible

for feeling empathy and the best way of

grabbing your customers attention is by

evoking emotions

because we're not thinking machines that

feel but rather we are feeling machines

that think now I'm going to talk about a

few neural marketing tactics that you

can apply in your marketing content for

your clients and uh for even if you're

freelancing then how can you get started

with neural marketing so here are a few

tactics

I'd like to start with

Google's 41 shades of blue experiment

now don't underestimate the power of

color psychology I'm going to give you

an example that will motivate you to

Google color psychology in the evening

now the perfect shade of blue increase

Google's revenue by 200 million dollars

200 million dollars Yes you heard that

correctly by identifying the exact shade

of blue which was most appealing to

users Google was able to entice users to

click on their Google ads hence

increasing their revenue in the process

now this is the power of colors each

color has a culturally assigned meaning

that can be positive or negative for

example red is associated with love and

passion but also with danger and

aggression colors also affect our

well-being and perception of reality now

we look at red red also increases our

blood pressure and blue and green makes

us calm which is one of the reasons why

a lot of Hospital curtains are green

because it's supposed to make you calm

the next tactic is movement

the human subconscious is naturally

focused on watching movement in the past

it was associated with the need to fight

for survival

in advertising Graphics the rule of

motion is that the viewer's eyes follow

an arrow sight or finger now for example

let's compare a global brand Pampers for

babies

they've come out with numerous

advertisements in most of them the baby

is on the shoulder and is looking

directly at you know the mother so

you're not really looking at the the

text that is there but in one of the ads

they actually had the baby looking at

the text so you look at the baby and

then you look at the text which makes

you look at the entire ad

now the small change increase the ads

attention rate because now the viewer

would look at the baby which is looking

at the text and hence they saw the

entire ad

and babies and puppies brings me to a

very exciting tactic called as a cute

approach

when was the last time you heard about a

cute video being banned and taken down

right when we see something cute our

brains are flooded with dopamine and

oxytocin which creates a feel-good

emotion as uh as women especially we

feel we feel very maternal when we see

puppies and babies so that's one of the

reasons one of the ways that is

influenced for for us to buy products

people share cute videos with their

Community it's more memorable and it

reaches a wider audience I know that

when I wake up in the morning I will not

say this out loud to my parents but what

I do is 30 minutes of Instagram reels

where I send all my best friends my

cousins and everyone different kind of

puppy videos and baby videos and stuff

because that is interesting so if you

want to get to your customer and your

customer Falls in a similar field maybe

you should think about the power of

cuteness because it works now a tactic

which has been already been mentioned

and is a lingo which we all use is fomo

I hope none of you are feeling former on

a Friday evening today as we speak

sing out

and this too can be used as a neural

marketing tactic

to entice your customers to make quick

decisions before they lose out on an

opportunity presented by the brand now

this is a very interesting point because

I I think it can be really elaborated on

though I will not be doing that today in

too many words but we all want to be

part of a community

whether it's you know a group in an

Institute or whether it's Instagram you

want to make sure that you're in the

close circles group that your friends

share which is the green Instagram story

highlight we all want to be part of the

of the group and that is a basic need

because we want to grab an opportunity

as humans we are opportunists and of

course we want to belong to community so

giveaways

um buy now get one later you won't or

you won't get later these tactics can

definitely be used under formal now you

can use all these tactics and still

shoot in the dark if your content is not

simple when there is too much of text

and information this leads to cognitive

overload and thus decreases users

interest and attention towards the

content so please kiss your content keep

it simple

I'd like to conclude by saying that

neuromarketing is definitely a field

that is yet to be explored and has

immense potential to be the next big

thing if it isn't already

a very big thanks to IIT for hosting

this event and helping us all as a

community of Learners teachers and

practitioners in the field of consumer

science

as an agency with such Keen interest in

neural marketing I can definitely see

neuro hook collaborating with IIT to

explore attention and I hope you'll be

part of this community that I hope to

build with IIT thank you very much

this is near a hook

uh anybody has any question yeah

hello Missy thank you for your talk and

at this enticing title neuro hook we are

hooked so

um but I do teach ethics so from a

business ethics point of view yes here

is a question yes that we feel that as

consumers we feel that we are more and

more ex being exposed the marketing if

it was very strongly persuasive earlier

with the neural marketing it is becoming

even stronger even more uh dangerous

perhaps micro targeting personalized

content and so on so we feel very

exposed so the question is is there with

all these new capacities that you have

with the neural marketing knowledge

about how our brain works is there a

line that has to be drawn somewhere

if so should you draw a line somewhere

and say that we don't go beyond this and

where should it be drawn yeah that's a

very interesting question and it is a

question that's been asked and answered

with various perspectives which is

basically questioning the ethics part of

neural marketing

um yes you know one of the ways that I

as a marketer perform when I create

content is I step out of the shoes and I

try to think as a customer so I do

understand that a customer would feel

violated in terms of their privacy and

the fear of being influenced or feel

like you know Mr Jane said that there

are a lot of

um

maybe you buy something that you don't

need to buy so yes I do feel like there

are certain kind of

uh codes of conduct which need to be

created but that is merely when you're

doing any research base like for example

as a comp as an agency what we do is we

apply neuromarketing research which has

already been conducted and we test it

out and see so in terms of social media

marketing how what kind of tactics we

really use is more on the ways of say

you know logo placement so that you know

what the brand is you know that there is

you know a high brand recall and that

those kind of objectives are more

um more something that you know of what

we at the moment are exploring which is

how do we increase brand awareness how

do we increase brand recall and not as

such as how can we get more leads and

you know generate sales because to be

honest it's too new a field where we can

say oh we've cracked the brain because

we'll never crack the brain we'll never

know exactly what is the right code to

apply and you know we'll be able to

predict you know this is what you know

consumers if you put out this kind of

content we'll get that all will be like

our sales will shoot up because that's

not going to happen each customer is

different each result is different and

the main focus I think in for neural

marketing uh while you're practicing

neuromarketing is on increasing brand

awareness and brand recall

yeah it's a very complicated answer I

too just being got lost in my own words

but I hope I answered your question

anyone else

hello ma'am yeah so my question is uh at

one hand we tend to promote startups uh

by innovating Technologies for say

e-commerce so it has already even the

ground to compete uh but at the same

time we have also introduced the

concepts like neural marketing providing

an upper hand uh to certain brands that

can afford it uh

these experiments and all so I

understand that using this

neurotechnology can be a strategy of a

company to know the trigger points of

the of the consumer but at the same time

it can be used to provoke audience to

buy things that they do not need at as

Sir said so uh do you think that it will

widen the gap which already exists

between budding and the big Brands so I

can just repeat the last few lines uh do

you think that it will widen the gap

between the existing that already exists

between the big Brands and the brands

that are coming up

yeah that's that's very interesting

question yes

most companies who have experimented

with neural marketing are the big ones

who actually have the resources to

conduct uh all sort of experiments small

medium businesses as such don't use

neuromarketing tactics and it is also

like it brings me to another answer that

a lot of stereotypes that are currently

existing from a client's perspective

when it comes to applying neural

Marketing in their own content because

clients get very overwhelmed when they

talk about neural Marketing in terms of

customer like I said we you know as a

community in the new marketing Community

we have not reached that stage yet where

we can say that we've we can predict

exactly what the customer is going to

say over the customer is going to do

it's always an educated guess that okay

you know even if you have a sample size

of like like what uh Miss Jane said

about having a small sample size of 25

to 125 people if you actually look at it

also I think that answer could

definitely be subjective based on your

client for example someone like Google

would not be okay with 25 as a sample or

125 is a sample and smaller companies

might be so I think from a customer's

point of view we we cannot predict

everything but we can try to understand

our customer and I think at the end of

the day what we are really trying to do

from by using neural marketing is just

get a better Insight of who your

customer is we're not going to say that

you know we want to generate massive

sales now we want to understand your

customer because once we understand your

customer we'll get to sales because I do

believe that at the heart of everything

you should keep your customer and then

you'll pretty much nail it and also

another very small statistic ninety

percent of small businesses fail because

they don't know who the target audience

is so neural marketing does can help

those companies and I think another very

interesting aspect to bring out is that

in India at the moment we what we really

do need or where there is a gap which

needs to be really bridged is have new

is have companies

um talk about or like part knowledge or

tactics which small medium businesses

owners can apply in their own content

strategy so that they can actually get

to know their customers

um

that is something that we need to test

out only in time we cannot predict that

yeah

it's too new a field to predict that

thank you

thank you for that presentation ma'am uh

my question is uh bit different like I'm

afraid that if neural marketing is

targeting my unconscious side of brain

so that would be a you know very deep

seated after some time like it will keep

in my mind if that uh that is something

which is not easily erasable so what is

your stance on this like I don't want

something which is which will impact my

buying decision or consumer Behavior My

Consumer behavior in a long run so how

can consumer from like from consumer

point of sight like how can we you know

protect yourself yeah

for I have a question for you

I will give you a questionnaire if I do

give you a questionnaire of 10 15

questions where I'm asking you to you

know just tell me about your opinion on

on a brand that you use

would those questions make you think

about you know like make you reflect on

your own answers right

but would your own would my questions

influence your the next time you see a

product the next time you see that

product

your questions definitely not uh you

know

for example

are you aware say you have a you use a

brand Nike right now I'll ask you 10 15

questions about what you like about Nike

you know Nike's promoted these campaigns

just do it do you think wearing Nike

makes you more physically active now if

I ask you this question will you go back

and think about do I actually wear Nike

and feel like I can be more physically

active

uh yes right now I'm trying to

understand you as a customer and you are

also trying to understand yourself

neural marketing literally does the same

where we're trying to just understand

your why you do what you do why you do

and why you do what you do that's about

it

neural marketing will not be you know

will not be very heavy on your credit

card it's not going to be that but it's

just going to understand your decisions

and that's about it because that is the

stage that we have at the moment as an

industry reached to we have not reached

to a standard where you know where we

have like cheat codes about the brain

and we never will all the neural

marketing according to me can do is

understand the customer but even in

terms of influencing right fear of

missing out this is this is a primal

need it's been there since you know

since we were primitive human beings so

can you really ask a primitive human

being the same question I don't think

you can so yeah I guess that answers

your question thank you so much you're

welcome do you wear Nike yeah yeah yeah

do you feel like you're more physically

active because you're an ikey yeah

definitely I use other brands also but

yeah but you feel more pumped about

wearing Nike because you feel definitely

definitely yeah see now that's very

interesting this is one such question

which I often think about if I'm wearing

a brand why do I wear it so

so I mean as marketers what I do tell my

team and my fellow Mates is

step out of your shoes and think like a

customer if I if I choose an iPhone over

an Android try to think about your

motives what you're trying to do is

trying to understand yourself on the

conscious level what your marketing does

is try to understand you and your

customers

doing like from a subconscious level

that's about it subconscious not

unconscious thank you thank you

so we have more questions

yes

so thank you so much Dia for putting

your novel ideas viewed thoughts on the

trending uh Marketing Solutions to the

business industry

and now

let me call the dice to Mr bhavya Madan

to share his thoughts and journey of new

funny
I can hold

just so stop sharing don't stop sharing

I'll

so I am not as well prepared as my

friends here so I'm I'm just going to

open up my my website and I'm going to

talk to you because that's what I plan

to do so uh I know it has been

I don't think so

Mike

perfect so I'm not going to do that I'm

pretty lazy if I stand there I'm going

to sleep so uh just to make your your

evening a little lighter just if you can

do one thing sit stand where you're

sitting just just for one minute I know

it has been a very long day I won't make

you exercise just stand where you are

just do a little bit a couple of pumps

where you feel the blood flow and once

you're tired just sit down that's it I

want your attention which is unfortunate

for me because I'm not prepared but at

least you will give me all your

attention which I can use so uh

so now we have the website here uh

basically my uh okay let me wait for for

people to finish people who were

standing you can walk a little bit

because it will just activate your brain

and it will put you in a weight state

so uh as uh Dr uh my panelist and

everybody has talked before me

in terms of neural marketing I am not

the person who would be actually the

right guy to talk about it because I am

an instrumentation person you see the

headband over there that's something

which I am working on and that is

something which I cater to so if if

somebody uh wants to buy a headband to

do neuromarketing I am the person for

them

uh hence I I was thinking that I would

rather address some of the question in

terms of the tick as as mentioned by

ma'am in terms of ethics

or by the guy or at least the the

startup thing because I belong to a

startup so I can completely relate to

that particular problem to start with

the with the question that guy in the in

the black shirt had uh using

neuromarketing and this is where I would

uh unfortunately disagree with my with

my co-panelist that neuromarketing

doesn't influence I think marketing is

to influence

uh initially it was uh using TV ads

radio ads then when we went out for

shopping the things that are kept at eye

level we trained to go towards them

now it's digital so it's digital

marketing uh but the problem is

do you know what is a click-through rate

when we post the ad usually you see how

many people clicked on that ad

Tick Tock started with 80 and now it's

at 1.5

outside India obviously

the idea is every time the tech improves

we as humans improve as well so we have

a habit of fighting back

if somebody is trying to influence your

behavior until unless you want that

behavior to be changed you won't let

that happen

so influence the hoga and now talk

coming back to the to the startup thing

I think yes 90 of the startups fail but

your 10 percent they know their

customers

and the idea behind neuromarketing is

that you learn about your customer and

why do big startups big companies need

to do that because they have multiple

products they have multiple Services

they cater to different people at

different stages but as a startup you do

one thing

and for that one thing if you don't know

your customer then obviously you're

going to fail so that's the idea that if

you find a a blank spot where you can

Target at that no big company doing so I

don't think so it is going to create

much of a gap in in any sense because

somebody once you neuromarketing is is

uh streamlined somebody is going to

start a DOT org where they will post all

the studies uh most probably IIT will do

that as well that they will put courses

on nptel where you will learn most of

the things that you need to do so

as as everybody has said there is no

less uh information out there so

rather than resisting it

today we are talking about uh neural

marketing for example we do understand

our brain

by 2015 2017 maybe 2100 we are done

understanding our brain we can do

everything we want and the new term is

spiritual marketing what would you do

then it's always the case that every

time there is a new thing there is

always a fear that it is going to do

something bad to us which I don't want

to do

that is my only Point here that I don't

think so that might be possible if you

are actually willing to resist against

it as as said by Dr ginger as well that

in case you want if there is some policy

in that and if you feel cheated you are

not going to go back to that brand and

that's my my two minutes

if you have any questions regarding

regarding the device or any other

question then

hello sir uh can I know how it is how

the device work uh so if you were here

during Dr James uh presentation you saw

a cap right

we created a mold out of it so it's a

plastic head case which you wear over

your head does the same thing as uh as

the EEG Capital doing it measures your

electrical activity of your brain and

tries to make inference about your focus

your attention but what our target

audience is obviously the meditation

Market that's what we thought that if we

want to bring meditation as a practice

into lives of of Youth we want to

introduce a little bit of data in there

as well so like we did with our physical

health step counts away heart rate

variability and now suddenly uh you

might not know about PDR I'm not sure

post area dominant Rhythm but that is

our Our Hope with this device that we

bring the knowledge and the

small parameters about your brain to you

as well so in case you see any uh

changes you can be a little proactive

then

that that condition doesn't come that's

the idea behind the the device that we

are creating so the device should be

always like a wristband no no not always

on your head so that is one thing it's

uh somewhere around five to ten minutes

every day but depending on the time so

personally for me I usually use it after

my office day because usually I'm tired

mentally to go to the gym and I have

figured out a few uh music and

meditation which works for me to

motivate me that's the idea wherever you

feel you're lacking try to use it at

that time when you're trying different

exercises for example playing chess just

before a meeting maybe it will put you

in that in that thinking process this

that is the use case of this device

while you're trying to uncover or

unlearn about more about your brain

so that I'll get to my question right

now sir yeah so suppose uh if there is a

device which you have to be put on uh

most of the time uh suppose it is

analyzing you every time so the device

if suppose the device is a VR so how it

should be for the Indian market whereas

like not putting for the large amount of

time like it it has the friction uh it

gets it gets wet so according to you and

your experience how how should be the

device so that it will be flexible for

the order for the consumers to gain it

uh and uh it should be easy on them to

use it uh

so so

um one thing is very important which

will come again in terms of marketing

anytime you want your consumer to learn

something that's very difficult

we all know how to wear specs we all

know how to wear headphones

so if you can integrate your Tech into

something like that that makes your life

easier because now there you with

without the tickets 2000 with the

tickets 2500 or maybe three thousand but

now they don't have to learn anything

new but what's happening parallely is

that you're Gathering the data you're

providing some insight so for example

you're you're wearing your headphone

sitting in front of your desk and trying

to study you get a notification like 30

35 minutes let's take a break

how long should be the break what should

you be doing in that break if your

headphones are capable of doing and

telling and controlling your Spotify in

terms of this is the music that works

for you then why would you not try want

to buy it that's not manipulation that

tells what

the device is trying to help you what

you are planning to do so for example

study but that's the idea that if you're

trying to incorporate those kind of tech

into the people in in b2c directly then

usually they they have to be uh in the

form factor that they are familiar with

or you have the budget like Google or

Facebook where you can spend as much as

you want so is neural marketing is

indirectly here already in the neural

marketing has been here already ever

since

it's just that uh initially we used to

figure that out using focus groups that

this is the color that we should use

this is the thing that we should Google

but they figured out the color how

because they were changing the color of

their ad

the color of it and after multiple A to

B testing they figured out this is the

the color that will work now that is

neural marketing they didn't record any

data they didn't do anything big neural

marketing is already being implemented

it's just that now biomedical part of it

is also getting involved so people are a

little scared in terms of accepting it

so India is not ready for uh like it is

not ready actually but they are not more

towards to this kind of tech whereas the

Western countries are more towards to

this so how how are you focusing in

India uh mainly uh actually uh Europe is

also not ready in terms of because I did

my masters in Germany

they are also of the sense that we don't

think so that we need something like

this regularly integrating into our life

but the idea is that we are not using

the device as a neuro marketing uh thing

obviously we have a cap which a neuro

marketer can buy and they can create ads

and blah blah but our application is

what we are trying to do is using a

particular known form factor so right

now this is not something that you know

if I keep the device in front of you you

won't wear which is the right side and

which is not so you'll have to see or

you will have to learn

but with headphones for example you

wouldn't have to do that and if it makes

your life easier you were going to uh

use that so

talking about this this kind of tech is

not acceptable in India I don't think so

uh have you heard about Ultra human or

uh the patch that they are selling do

you think you want to insert a a needle

in your hand for 14 days

no no but they are selling it and they

are selling it very successfully so it's

a huge country and there are people who

are very interested even in two percent

Improvement in their life because they

have for example athletes if they're

trying to improve themselves that's the

only way they can do if they're

recovering from a from a physical

ailment

even for them one to five percent

Improvement is a huge deal between

Olympic medal and and that so you start

with that only with the extreme cases

and then you tickle down to the to the

mass audiences thank you

any other question

uh whenever I come to know that somebody

is observing me I tend to change my

behavior that I tend to do something

that which will fill others good so

similarly when we wear the device I know

that somebody is watching me analyzing

me so there might be some biasedness uh

the person might uh do certain thing

which he usually not to do okay so how

can we reduce that is it yes so the

easiest way to do it is uh doing

repetitive uh sampling so you cannot uh

the first time you might be able to fool

or introduce some bias ten times you

won't be because we can average out the

noise

that's the old way second

now nobody is observing you this device

is at your home the it is connected to

your mobile app you're doing it in in

your own space nobody is there

and you can shut off the Wi-Fi so you

you can be sure that the data is not

leaving your device now tell me the

reason you would like to introduce any

bias into your own learning

yeah when I know that some it the data

is not been getting late or is used by

someone then yeah it might be that I

will give the correct Behavior so in in

our case in our mobile application there

is no Cloud backend for the same reason

that we don't want your data keep your

data you can download it you can plot it

you can if you're a techie you can do

whatever you want but getting the raw

insights is not you raw data is not

useful for us

for what is useful how frequently you're

using it what time are you using it that

kind of information is important for

example if I find another person

who is very similar to you then I am

going to start recommending him

recommending him or her that try the

device using this music or at this

particular time hoping that it worked

for you it will work for them as well so

that that is the important part I'm not

I don't care literally about the the

mood and the parameters particularly

because if that is available in a

database then it becomes a security

concern obviously
okay fine thank you

thank you so much sir uh for sharing

your valuable thoughts and points I'm

sure there are a lot of questions which

might be discussed in the coming session

right now so to summarize this entire

discussion we have uh panel discussion

round in this particular session so I

would like to call sakshi to move ahead

with this panel discussion sakshi

it's okay

good evening everyone let's now begin

with am I Audible

oh let's begin with the panel discussion

now uh the first question for the panel

is neuromarketing is often termed is the

art of manipulating the mind of

customers is that ethical

neural marketing is often termed is the

art of manipulating the mind of the

customers is that ethical

I think we've already answered this

question in different perspectives

already so we can move to the next one

okay

um Mr bhavya your organization is

involved in manufacturing mobile EEG

devices how accurate or different are

these from those in the global market

like Toby brainwave neuro sky and

emotive okay so in terms of accuracy I

won't say that uh it's very accurate but

we have partnered with different iits

IIT gandhinagar and hopefully what I've

seen in terms of biomedical what's

happening in IIT uh jodhpur hopefully

pretty soon here as well with cdac and

different organization where researchers

have done the the research on subjects

and not us so in terms of data I'm

pretty sure that the the data quality is

not in question

when in when you're talking about

different uh devices which are available

globally their Market is very different

so for example neurosky was a

device where you can Implement BCI

applications for example uh mind

controlled wheelchair or a home

automation board or something like that

because it only had one sensor similarly

emotive came in with a research kind of

question in their head that we want to

replace the cap with the with the

headband and we want to give that many

amount of sensors for us it was bringing

music and meditation back into where we

know rather than spending time on

Instagram scrolling on reels can you use

that those five minutes more efficiently

and how they are affecting your brain

and your performance calculating that is

particular Market that we are looking

into

oh thank you so Mr bhupesh how do you

see the fashion and beauty industry

leveraging consumer Neuroscience as a

potential for the future

the fashion industry is

cyclical

summary honesty sits in New York Paris

Milan

and decides that this is going to be the

color of the next year or the next

season

and then design something that spreads

across the world as you know

Envision with the various designers

but it fundamentally how does it affect

us as a consumer

it comes back to the fact that is there

scarcity I don't be left out I want the

sense a belongingness from a master's

point I have to be part of a group

all my friends are doing it I don't want

to be left out behind it and that is how

I think marketing is in this industry of

fashion and Beauty

speculating and spreading Trends across

players

what first

it's interesting that I was sitting in

response to your question both the gents

are in blue and the ladies and pink

and that's because something is you know

over a century or last hundred years

some fashion designers somewhere decided

that blue should be for the men and pink

should be the women

the fascinating part about this is a

hundred years ago

pink was meant for the men

okay

pink denoted royalty pink denoted

culture

you wouldn't think of Health you're

masculine and suddenly somewhere

somebody decided and now for the last 50

60 years blue is meant for men and

pinkish men for women

that's the amount of

uh influence some set of people up there

are doing and you don't even know about

it but you're just playing on the field

that look I don't want to be left out as

she right he put in her presentation

that formal part is so critical

the sense of scarcity created that I

said in my presentation the sense of

belongingness came in some other

presentation all that Trends is what's

happening

how particular are brands with regard to

knowing what the customers actually feel

about them

very very very much because it's got to

do with sales the more you know your

customers the the better way you can

Market your brand your your Brand's

product or service like I always say the

most important thing is to keep your

customers at the heart of everything you

do and uh and all clients everyone like

even if I ask a random person who's not

a client or who's not a customer and I

ask them this question is it important

for you to know your customer well it's

natural for them to say yes and the

reason is because you know it generates

sales

thank you ma'am uh the next question for

the panel is in today's time how

important is it what people say they

like compared to what the brain

resonates with

that's the definition of neuromarketing

because consciously we might say that we

like a but your subconscious reasoning

is you know the other like I I asked a

fellow student about whether he wears

Nike shoes and why you know why he wears

the Nike shoes if he does it's it's

actually a study by the way it's about

like why people wear Nike shoes or wear

Nike any product is because they so

emotionally resonate with the brand so I

might ask 10 people if my sample size is

10. each one will have a different

answer some might say it's quality some

might say it's durability but there

could be I mean of course those also

could be the reasons but subconsciously

chances of you wearing something because

you really believe in it or believe in

the value of it could be higher so a lot

of times we are not aware of our

subconscious reasoning and that is well

what neural marketing is all about

oh thank you so much Matt add to that

just one sec

I'm picking on the point okay some of us

use swiggy some of the zomato

the prices could be same the

availability is the same restaurant if

something happens that one of us like

sweetie one of us like zomato like Zola

I like Uber or whatever it is because

somewhere the user experienced that you

relate to to that brand or you relate to

that interface can change

and that is happening at a subconscious

level

okay and that's exactly what she's

talking about

thank you sir it's been an absolute

honor hearing all of you on the future

of neural marketing

this discussion has provided all of us

with some valuable insights to reflect

on on behalf of the entire IIT jodhpur

fraternity I take this opportunity to

thank each one of you for providing us

with such Visionary and perceptive

thoughts can we please have a big round

of applause for the panel members

foreign

I would like to thank all our eminent

panelists the entire discussion has

really given us some food for thought so

um thank you so much akshi for

moderating the panel discussion and now

I would request Dr wanker charm ready Dr

Amit Singh and Dr venkatesh Murthy to

kindly join us on stage and present the

token of appreciation for our eminent

speakers present here today

foreign

um

industry day 2023 commenced today with a

plethora of enlightening sessions both

virtual and in person

as we proceed towards the closing

ceremony of day one we would like to

welcome on stage Professor Sangeeta Sani

head the School of Management and

Entrepreneurship IIT jodhpur to deliver

the vote of thanks

distinguished guests faculty and

students a very good good evening to all

of you uh so as we come to an end of

this session and this program for today

I would like to thank each one of you

here present first I think I speak our

speakers who've shared their insights

with us I uh thank Dr Jane Layton uh VP

Nielsen IQ who joined us from UK it was

indeed very nice of her to John give us

a time and join and of course we got a

slightly uh you know behind our schedule

but she was so accommodative that she

took it very patiently I thank her you

know from a bottom of my heart I thank

Mr kapesh linger director Andrew I I've

met him several times and every time I

meet him it's a different experience

thank you so much sir I thank Ms diasina

uh very nice to hear you ma'am uh you

know so young and it's full of ideas and

it's brilliant to hear you I thank Mr

behavia Madan also and how I mean I'm

happy that you know we in our country we

we can make such products which can give

tough competition to the global players

thank you so much

um thank you uh all so it was really a

wonderful listening to all of you and

I'm sure we've all gathered you know all

of us who are gathered here have gained

immensely

um

um so you know we have to thank it's a

long list and uh you know it's if I miss

on somebody it's absolutely inadvertent

uh I'd like to thank our director

Professor Chaudhary original leader who

has been the inspiration for all of us

and has made this day uh possible here

for all of us at IIT jodhpur I thank the

deputy director Professor vadera the

registrar the administration for all

their help and support to organize this

industry day uh a big thanks to Dean iro

Apostle Ghosh and the associate degree

in iro Dr
the entire iro team who's worked hard

day and night in the past one month

specially in the last Fortnight they've

been been really really really working

you know you know all 24 7 and they've

been bearing all our demands all our

requests and all the delays on our part

um I thank the faculty and the students

present here I thank all of those who

actually would you know volunteered to

Showcase their work and that's there in

the posters which you see in the

adjacent room I'll request the guests to

spend some time there uh just having a

look at the posters

um a big thank you to all the student

volunteers here uh you know uh who have

really helped us and above all I want to

thank my younger energetic colleague Dr

anus pal Kapoor uh without whom this

event would not have been possible and

it's always he's always there as the Mr

cool and you know all the time ready to

be uh dealing with the last minute

glitches and Technical problems thank

you so much Anuj and bye by all till we

meet again thank you

thank you everyone for being here I

would just like to remind everybody that

the research is being showcased in room

number 309 so kindly take a look thank

you for being here