52 PLATO: COLLECTED DIALOGUES not it can be taught, thus guarding against the possibility that your Eplmetheus might tsp us up and chest us in oUF ngulr, Jost a8 ac. frding to the tory be overlooked us in the dlstbution. Ved romethous inthe myth Beter than Epimetheus sot fllow his lead land spend my tne on all these matters a8 a means of taking fore ‘houghe for my whole life. I you shoul be wi the beginning. you are the ng with whom T would most gladly share te inguly. 1 fongratuate you on your keenness, Socrates, responded Prot ora, ad Jour sii in exposition, [hope Iam ot to bad a charae- ter and Tam the last man to be jealous. T have told a great many pecple that never met anyone I admire neatly as much ss jou, ce Rlinly not among your contemporaries, and {say now that I should not be surprised if you became one of our leading plosophers. Wel, we til tlt of these matters at some fweare meeting. whenever you ike, Dut now fis ume fo turn to other things. ‘So be its, that is Your Wish. Indeed T ought long ago to nave kept the appointment mentioned. [nly stayed as 2 concession {othe bnndishment of Callas. “That wasthe end ofthe conversation, and we went away. MENO (Can virtue be taught? asks Meno. Socrates replies that he certainly nmat do for he dovs not know what virtue Meno does and eam {all him and gives him forthwith a Uist of variows virtuous qualities, nly tobe caught up by Socrates, who potnts out that, as people sayin Jest ehen perio breaks smething, he has merely made a singular Into a pura Can Meno seate whet vtue is whale leaving it whole and not broken into such psors aa justice, temperance, and so on? Meno nally comes outwith the statement that isthe desire of the good. Bu, Socrates says, everyone desires the good, no one ever desires ee. For what else ts tmbappiness but desiring evil things and geting them?” "The two agree to try seriously to find out what virtue isi tse sential nature, Socrates thinks this eam be done Because people who (re fnspred lke pots and priests believe What we are born notin ew fine forgetfulness nor yet inter nakedness, but thatthe soul of man {immortal At one me te comer to an end and at another ts bora dgetns but lo never finaly exterminated” We ean reclloct if we fry Ind Enough whet our souls knew in former liver. He gives © proof of this by making one of Meno'sslzes, @ completly aneduccted la, ‘aon out farts about squares end trangtes al by kimslf without the ‘lightest help fom anyone, He twas able to do so, Socrates say, Be use rin ies new before ath sl existed int and cou with (great effore be recalled. Mono ond he cam ry like the slave to recol- lecttie knowledge they once had in another existence. ‘The last part of the dalogue ts taken up with Socrates’ demon stration nd Men's reluctant aprecmens that ere snot taught ae ‘ohere so that it te not hnowledge ‘hich cam be and ts taught. No Further definition te attempted, but Socrates" conchtsiom, characters tially Greek, ts that fever there could be a mam who fm addition 10 Deng artuos new what virtue was and could teach ihe would be mong other mon tke a reat among ftcing shades. “The third speaker, Amgtas, who comes bn foward the end, ts gen ‘rally considered tobe the Amytus soho proposed at Socrates tia that Ateshontd be put to death, and his contribution othe argument here is {tall point consistent with ts view. Scanned with CamScannersexo Can you tle, Socraen— vie speting tat can te tanght! Or doc come by practice? Oris We nelther teaching not Mace that ves ito man Bt natoralapiude ar smething ke? Socnatee: Well Meno nthe old days the Theswalans bad eat reputation among the Gress for their wealth and thee horse ‘Eenalih Nowe seme they are pilosopbers as well—espcilly the ‘an Lanse, where your friend Aristippus comes from Is Corgis ‘hos done fe went o that ety and eaprred the heats ofthe Totton ofthe Aleut for hs wisdom among them Your own x fiver Arstippus~-not to speak of ether leading Thessaltans. In par. Tolar he getyou int the bie of answering any question you mht ‘Beudked Suththe confidence and dlanity appropriate co those who ew the anewe, jst abe himself inves questions of every Kind an apne ine Grek mond who wisest ask, and never fal 0 emer ic But here at Athens iy Ge eo. ust the reves ‘Theres = rst seks a iad migrate fm ‘Tsao the country to yours, At any rate if you put your question soeEFor ur copes hey wil ai alte fog and sey You mst think FPam’aingulanly fortunate, to know whether virtue an be taught ot how ila SequitedThe fac that far fom knowing Whether i ca be up, have no dea what virtue selfs Tati my own case. Tare the poverty of my fllow county. sen inthis seopec an ctess tomy shame that I have no know age abou virtue a all: Ard how ean {know a property of something SHE.TSont even know whac i a? Do you suppose tht somebody en {ly tgnorane who Meno i could say whether he i handsome and ‘ich llbm or he everae?ahat posse do you think? Snwo: No. But i this tue about yourself Socrates, that you dont even Know what wrt is? I this the report that we ace ake frome sb you? socnars: Not only tat, you may sy also that, othe best of my belle, Thave never yet met anyone wh dit know. reno: What! Didnt yu meet Gorgias when he was here? Siswo: And you sl dnt think he knew? Socnaree: fm a forgetful sre of person, and I cant say fust now what f thought atthe time, Probably edd know, and T expect Jou Know what be used fo say about So remind ne what i Wad, Time yourself you will No doubt you agree wth him, Seno Yes, Edo. focnn rte, Then let’ leave him out oft, since after all he isnt here." What do jou yourself say virtue i? ask you in all earnest GSS not to vefove te, butt speak ot Taal be only too happy tobe From Protpores ond Meno, wamalated widh an introduction by W.K. ‘Guide (Penguin Cases, Harmondswerth, Mlddlese, 1099), weno = propensity ant arg um oko ong a Pensa ae ese Se We ney ih uh ie fla er et a ak culos ie Ace esas ea Sree tangiaries ir creer ae Ears reatiancntner hae name Bik inca aetlnecr Saraie TESA ee caer ies Shane ma Seite edt oi gn Se eee Freabcniey meena ue ae Sioa ar aa Sito Sea re et focmates: And tei possible to direct anything well—city ar household or anything elseif not temnperately an juny? atnNo! Certainly not Socnares. And that means with temperance and justice? Stuwo: Ofcourse. ‘eranceancy Socnares: Then both man and woman need the same qual tes, juni and termperance, if they ae gang o be ‘Mano: Telook ike ee Sockarrs:. And what abovt your child and old man? Could they be god if they were incontinent tnd unjust? steno: Ofcourse not. Socna res: They must be temperate and just? Seno: es. © _Sockares: So everyone Is good inthe same way, since they ‘become good by posessng the sae quale. sreo: Soitscems Socuaras: And if they did not share the same visue, they would not ood inthe same way. steno: No. Zocnares: Seeing then that they all have the same virtue, try toremember and tell me what Cong and you, who share hie prion, ENO: It must be simply the capaciey to govern men, if you are 4 looking for one quality to cover lle instances 7 wteegazen: indent. Bat Gora hits spy ta hid or slave? Should slave be capable of governing his aster, and if he docs. she tla save? ‘Stuno: Thardly think so, neOGheTes Ie cotily doc ound Uy, And ar sa other pont. You speak of capacity to govern Shall we nota, ust Butnot otherwise’ 7 ea ‘tN think we should for justice svete © Socnarzs: Virtuo, doyouss},ora virtue? ‘rewo: What do you mean? Sockargs: Something quite general. Take roundness, for in- stance. I should say that it is shape noe simply that te shape, ‘Season being that here are otbershapes a well aad wENO 357 reno; [see your point, and I agree that there are other virtues ste. iSocnarts; Tell me what they aze. Just as I could name other Shape if you told me ton the same way mention some other vets. ENO: in my opalon then courage isa virtue and temperance sand wisdom and dgoity and many oder things "Soctaress This put us back where we were In a diferent way swe have discovered ‘umber of virtues when we were looking for ‘ne only. This engl virtue, which permeates cach of them, we cannot ode “ bea ‘aexxo: No, Tanne yet grasp it as you want, single virtue ov- ring them al, a6 Ldpin other instances. JocnaTees Tm not surprised, but I sall omy best get us a ‘wt urther if can. You understand, expect, thatthe question applies To everything Tf someone took the example | menduned Just omy, hf asked you, What shape?” and you repled that roundness ‘Esper and he then asked you as Tid, Do You mean its shape or ‘haped'you would repyof couse dat it ina thape- aero" Certainly. ZGenaress Your reason being that there ae other shapes as wel aeeo: Yes Socnarts! And if he went on to ask you what they were, you ‘would ei i, atENO: ie {nara And hese with lori be asked you what ss, anton your replying White ook you up with, Ts white color or SAGE? you would ey tar clo, because there are oder eles Stwel Steno: shoul Socnares: And if he asked you to, you would mention other colors which are ost a2 much colors as whi hteno: Ye FocnarEs: Suppose chen he pursued the question a8 1d nt nj" aay tie a lay, bu that tthe Ad of Shawer want Seeing tat you eall these many particulars by one snd dhe same name, and say that every one of them in a shape, even ‘hough they are the contrary of each other, tell me what this s which fmbraces found as well a9 stalght, and what you mean by shape ‘then you say that straightness i shape ab much as roundness. You dosaythat™ “iewo: Yee. HocnatEs: ‘And in sayingit, do you mean that roundness is no more rund than straight, and straightness no more straight than round?” Scanned with CamScannergs8 PLATO: COLLECTED DIALOGUES aezxo: Ofcoune not Tocnaree: Yet you do say that roundness ino more sha shania eer ab a Socrates: Then what s this thing which is called “shape”? 18 Tey totell me It when asked this question ether about shape or clot You sald, But I Gont understand what you want, of what you mean, Your gucsiones would pesape be rurpacd and ay, ‘Dott ou see {ha am looking for wht fe the sane fall of them?” Would you ven sobe unable o reply. the questo was, ‘What i tha Is com ‘non to roundness and stralghtness and the oer things which you {nl shapen? Do your bes fo answer, a practice for the question about » wSexwo: No, youdott, Socrates. fockcras: Boseuwantmetogvein tose? SoceaTes: And will you in your tum give me an answer about mut’ ou in your tur gi Stexo: Tl 1 Soceares: in that case I must do my best Is in a good cause. Srnwos Conan =" es Bocnares: Well now let's ty to tell you what shape is. See if you accept this definidon” Lets Gene itr the nly thing which {Tivays accompanies color. Does that say you, o do jou want fein foe oder way? T should be content Hf your deintion of virtue were « Snsinularine. {Atewo: But thats a nave sor of definition, Socrates. Socnares: How? Sumo. Shapes if [understand what you say, what always a companies color Well nd good if somebody says that he does [Know what colori, but so better off with ie han he fe with shape, ‘what sort of answer have You given him, do You think? ‘socnatea™ Aue one, and if my questioner were one of the clever, putatious, and quarelaome kind. 1 sbould say to him, "You a ave heard my answer. Its wrong, tls for you 0 ake up the argue ent and refute fe However, when ilendly people, Ue you and he, Irant to converse with cach ater ones reply mit be milder tod Tore conducive to ducuasion By that Team that mun nt only be ‘fue, but muon employ tern with which the quesoner adie be t= familar. So T will ey to answer you lke at Tell me, therefore, « whether yoo rcognite the term end mea lit oe bounday al Tae words Ionia the some sear, Prodcus might perhaps quarzel ‘wth us, bu T assume you speak of something belng bounded Coming oan end: Thats alll sean, nothing subule Mano! T admit the notion, and: baleve T understand your meaning MENO 359 socnarns: And again, you recognize ‘surface’ and ‘sll’ as 7 they are wed in geomet? Muxo: Yes Zccnatxs. Then with these you should by this me under stand my defntion of shape."To cover all ts Instances, Tsay that ‘Shape ith in which aod terminates, or more beefy, its the Limit taal Seo: And how do you define color? weduArtes What's shameles fellow you arc, Meno. You keep toshering an ed man to answer, but refuse to exerise Your Memory nd ellie what was Gorgias defination of ite. » Swreno: wil, Socrates, a soon as You tell me thi Mechcees: Anyone talling to you could tel bindfld tt you are alread have yor ees sexo: Why 30? Tecnu Because you ae forever aing down the law ab 1 Saye do, who act the tyrant as long a tele youth lasts, No ‘Eabeyou nave dacovered tht I can never sesist good looks. Well, I © ‘el given and et youhave your answer Steno: Doby all meso Jocnaree: Would you ike an answer la Gorgias, euch a8 you would mast readily fellow? ENO! Ofcourse Tahould, Socuarres You and he belive in Empodocley theory of ef Avene, do You not? ezixo: Wholeheartedly Zekaress And passages to whlch and through which the caiuenger mae tir Way? Steno" Yer Yocnarrs: Some of the eflvencesStinto some ofthe passages, wheres athers are foo coat or 0 ie eno: That isright. Socnarees Now you recognize the term 'sight”?™ Steno: Ye. Socanres. From dese notions, then gras what I would ell* as Pindar tye. Color an elle from shapes commensurate with ‘Sent and pereopuble by ier No That seems tome an excelent answer Yocuaress No doubt i the sore you ae used 10, And you probly eee that ft provides way t9 define sound and sinell and ‘any salar things reso: Soltdoes. Socnarres Yer tsa highsounding answer, o you Uke bet tern the one on shape Scanned with CamScanner60 PLATO: COLLECTED DIALOGUES sexo: Ido. Jocnaris. Neverteles, son of Alexidemus, I am convinced thatthe ur io ter and I belive you would agree with me if you Irad et, as you tld me yesterday, to leave before the Mysteries, but could stay and be nidated, oy Sfeno: | would tay, Socrates, if you gave me more answers Ike th socnares: You maybe sure I shane be lacing in henness 0 tact boar your Sake and, ut ald ey not be ae SEye.R20 eevee now iti your tum odo ae you promod ad ry time ine general nature of roe Stop making any out of oe » tl amon say when someboxy bres a plate Jos leave vitae se apa ahd tll ie what yar inthe examples 1 have (ver Jeno: It seems to me then, Socrates, that vitue i, in the words ft neha tee inte ne and have power” abd dtc as Ein ne things and being abt acquire them smarts, When you speck oft tan dssing ne chi youre tod things be dees? Inrrwo: Cental Tockures: Then do you think some men desire evil nd others «oot Been eerone nour opinion dese god tings? Sdennrns: And would you say that dhe others suppose evils to be good or do they stil desire them sthough they recognize them a en? ‘aso: Both, Ishould sey. Tocnares: What? Do you relly dhink chat anyone who recog- ize cia for what they ate, nevertheless desires them? ‘sexo: Yes Sonatas: Desires in what way? To posess them? Steno: Of course. 4 Socnarne: In the bell chat ev things bring advantage to thle possessor or harm? ‘Minn. Some the rst belie, but some alsin the second. Tocnares: And do you belive that those who Suppose evil ‘things ring advantage understand that hey are evil? SruNo No, that I cant really believe Sockarns’ lant it clear then that this class, who don't recog- nize cvle for what the are. don't desire ev but what they thnk is food, though infect ice evil, those who through Ypvorance mistake Ene things Tor good obviously desire the good? Sako. Forthem Feuppoce dats tue Yocnates: Now as for those whom you speak of as desiring evils in the belief that they do harm to thee possessor, these pre ‘SUtnubly Know dat they wil be injured by them? MENO 36r 2S ht ober ned ‘$0 far as he is injured, unhappy? — 7 ee a ‘MENO: Yes, 7 FEST wan ena wt nga eee eee ony ay va oh ss Strano st SUP attaeee as ae wae itChre Noh it a ot en sont too a she wih common fo eee, and in tat reget noone beter ino! Sol appara fenarees Soi ne man eer tan note, mst eve dent ein respect of te power, and rue secordng 10 out ne fant ithe port agua ees ‘ano "eo myorinion Sea oonowexerie, hares! Lt ta Whee yas have Ee uth this time, You may well be right. The pomer of actutsng {ing You may well be right The power of acquing god things, Jo SEND: Yes sweaigOCMATES: And by good do you mean ste things a health and 34EN0 Tinchide and ES inde the gang both of gl and sve and of high nine CCRATES: Are these the only classes of goods that you recog- ae Yong : ca ect nee tl th bt ptr ge ‘ean take any diferente Me an ot even if they ae unjustly acquired? 708 twit al the uss ea See ices tear Seer a ‘or some other part of virtue, must attach to the sequisition, ¢ Bice ‘wise although isa means to good things, twill not be virtue, Soe cree eget SOSA AEE Ro Pe tm Scanned with CamScanner02 PLATO: coriEcTED piaLocurs {ns apt tees ir enn of sar cite Sin onitis Satine gations Peed evicted itm iy an sa St ke nay ie mars Sore Dakar ore Sie: Towner eto ate LECLUPRETIY Siete Sah ote poop kala sora Lessig Eicon me matings toate oie om TOSISEET PAS Joa yoo a ono tapenade ant an ‘ast aver el Stn ee SOT STES AT aaa oreo sive: Te TESLEEo tats fo ot mn ates a wen Ment are De ec Phriyahioon ohana etre SOLDGRAITL tet Pinter ee Diep Tae eke mae te Speke ies wa waters Ba as SS Rare Loans ea Sater tine races yy es are San Serre rhs aa Berea ma thea ght inet tag sift tate Bek yap ee pa Scere i Ae pts Sa cout knowing the whole? a io i Tare SIS AERO 2 you men, yo shes pf ee ee He ar ST anh Re es oe ‘eewo: Wedd and sgh Secnares: Then pease do the stme While the naire of virtue asain nde gusto, dst spn et you can xan {o anyone in terms of spats, by any haar spe of explanation, UUndosand ster thatthe son ston emus tobe sere uty hs nd at oot u,b what i? Does hs oom a oe ou ‘trio No, tomes seme right enough Socnares: Then go back othe begining and answer my que ion. What o you abd your fend ay tat vite? MENO 383 nx: Socrates, even before I met you they told me that ia plain wth you ae'a‘perplexed man yourself and reduce others 10 6 Rifles this mone feel you ate exercising agie and with Fee opon me and postvely ving me under Your spell unt Tara fiat aan of elleenes uy be Ripane tink that no only Assaeard gppetance bt in ther respects ab well you Are exactly Ike the Hat ng tay that ene meee fhe sear Whenever anyone ns int contact wth i numb him and hat Ie the sre of hing wn you sem 0 Be den ome now My mid end my ips are Ierdy nab, and ave noting to reply to You Yet Tave spoken © aout virtue Hundreds of times, bedford often on the sabe in ‘Hoot of large audences; and ory well too oF so thought, Now T EGR Sie Sy havi in ty plain you ae well vised not ite ten ie bond youth ea eee in usher county you would mos kel be aested as canree: Sots eal rascal ena You ney took me in Nixo. Jusewhat de youmean? Sochates: Taco why you ud ase aboot me . Stswos Why do you tink? Tocnaree’ Tobe compared something in rer Al gpd Jockin people, I know peel el enjoy a ge of comparisons ‘Fae etie bet of fr nately handsome flk provoke handsome skeet fm nt gg to oblige you As for mysel. he sting) foralyes tiers only thtough btn paralyzed feeif, then the com ort is jst bot ot oerise. Ion hat, knowing te answers FRypll{ eapler other peopl. he ea ear that fect tern o'wih ic perpen feel ayant So with virtue now. Td know Atha ida snoy ave known before you eae into coneact wih 4 Tnetbut mow you lok aif you don, Nevrtcless Lam ready fo czy {ut together ith you fe nvestigaton and ingury ino what i SfExo. But Yow wil you lok for something wen you dent Ae lest know what is? How om earth eyo lng te up some {ing you do know ab the eee of our search? To pute another trayscren if pou cote night up agai how ll You know that ‘Wilk youhavefound ithe thing yu dant Know? Joenares’ know what Sou mean. be yo realize that what « {you ave bringing up is the trick argument thae man cannot ty to “inane ethers he nows ox what be docs not know? He would set stak what he knows, for since e Koows ether iene ned of the Inulty;uor what dts not now, fori tat ease he doesnot even nbw what he tolook for ‘eo: Well doyou think ia good argument? « Jocnaras: No Sisto Can ou explain how it fls? Tookares, Team have heard from men and women who understand the truths af ligion Scanned with CamScanner36) PLATO: COLLECTED DiaLocuEs sexo: What did they say? Socnaras: Something tue, I thought, and fine. Sresto: What wast, and who wer they? Socuaras: Those who tall lt are priests and priestesses of the tort who make tte business to be able to account forthe functions » which they perform. Pindar speaks oft too, and many another of the posts who are divinely inspired. What they say in this-ace whether Sou think chey are speaking the truth They say that the sou! of man 2efmmonal At one me it comes to an end-that which s called death-—and at ancther Is bor again, but is never finally extermi- Dated, On these grounds man must ive all he days as igbteouly [Ss ponmble. For those fom wher Persephone recelves ruta for ancient doom, Inde ninth yur she restores again ‘heir sols othe sun sone rom whom ie noble Bing c ‘And the sit in strength nd greatextn wikdom, ‘hod forte set of ane ‘They are called heroes and sancti by men* ‘Thus the soul, since itis immortal and hae boen born many times, and ies see. all shings both ere and in the ether werd, haz leamed everything that i So we need not be surprised sf can Toca the knowledge of virtue or anything else which, as we see it once Pos 4 sessed Allnature is akin, and the sul ae learned everything, 0 Gat ‘when a man has recalled a single pece of knowledge-leerned i, ia ‘ordinary language-—there is no Teason why he should not find out all the rest Af he Keeps a stout heart and does not grow weary of the Search, fr seeking and learning are infact nodung but recaliston ‘We ought net then to be led asty by the contentious arpu: ‘ment you quoted. It Would make ws lazy, and is music in the ears oF « Weabllngs The other doctrine produces energetic seekers after Knowledge, and being convinced of is truth, Tam ready, with your help, oingulze into the nature of vue. ‘tex Ico, Socrates, But what do you mean when you say that we dont lear anything, but that what we all lerning is Teal Teton? Can you tac oe that ns? SocuaTas: I have jst said that youve a rascal, and now you 2 ask me if Lean teach Jou, wen 1 say there i no much ting ae teach ‘ng. only recllecton. Evidently you want to catch me contradicting sel straightaway. ‘axo: No, honestly, Socrates, 1 wasnt inking of that 1 was jst habit Ifyou can th any way make clear tome that what yot say iste, please do ‘SOcHATES © I ont an easy thing, but stil should lke to do * Pindar, 139. MENO 385 wnat Ican since you ask me. 6 you have a large numberof retainers here. Call one of therm, anyone you ike, and Iwill se him to demon- strate ito you, ‘e240. Certainly. (Toa slave boy.| Come here Socnatra: Holsa Greek and speaks our language? Seen: Indeed yes-born and bred in the house, Socuatrs: Listen carefully hen, and see whether i seems to you that hela learning from me or mply being reminded, Mano. Lil SocaarEs: Now boy, you know that a square i a figure like hie (Gocrates beyins to draw figures i the sand at his feet. He points {othe square anc.) nov Yer. Socaares: Ithasall these four sides equal? . nov: Yee 7 Socnats®: And these lines which go dhough the middle of it se also equal? ize, 1], nor: Yes. SocnaTes: Such a Sgure could be either larger or smaller, couldit noe? ‘por. Yer SocnaTas: Nov i this side is two fet long, and this sde the same, how many feet will the whole be? Put Sethe way. If were {oo fet in this szection and only one in that, must nat the area be ‘profent taken once? ‘nor Yer SocmaTee: But since its two fet this w come tice two fect? oy: Yes. Socmares: And how many feet is twice two? Work it out and vallme, ‘nor: Four so, doe not be- Scanned with CamScanner386 PLATO: coLLEcTED DiaLocurs socnarss: Now could one draw another igure double the sae of hls, but similar, thts, with alls sides equal ike this ne? or: Yes. Socnarhs: How many fet wil ts area be? [Now then, ty to tell me how long each of sides wl ie The present Sigur has side of two fect. What wl be the nde UF the doublesized one? or: Tewillbe double, Socrates, obviously Socnaras: You sec, Meno, tha Tam not teaching him any- thing enly asking. Now he thinks he knows the length of the side of {he ghtfoot square. mano: Yes, Socnares: But doer he? Seaso. Certainly not. Socnares: He thinks itis twice che length ofthe other, deeno' Yer Socnarzs: Now watch how he recollecs things in order—the proper way wrecollect "ou say that the side of double length produces the doubted figure? Like this I mean, nt long this way and short that. I must be cual on all sides tke the irs figure, only twice Hs size, thats, eight ect. Thinks moment whother you sll expect to gti rom doubling theside Dov: Yes, do Socnatrs. Well nov, shall we havea line double the length of ‘this [4b] if we add another de same ength at this end [23]? nor: Yes. SocaATES: Ik is on this line then, according to you, that we shall mate the eight-foot ware, by taking for ofthe se eng? Socnatas: Let us draw in four equal ins [Le counting a3 dnd adding 1%, x8, and 1a made complete ty drawing tn its second half), using the fret a6 a base Does tis nat give us what you call, the elght foet Rene? MEKo 387 sor: cen, Tocaatets Ba dos contin tee four square, ach ei ‘oak orginal Fours one? a a (Sorat as drt the les ct 3 comple the sures ‘that he wishes to point out.) st Sorte Iechgets: Hw tg te Wan erin gt ‘SocnazES: And is our times the same as twice? Loy Gresusene Tecaerae: So deuling the de aspen ot nota dota bt © ‘fourfold figure? 7 sR {ena fEt: Andou tne for ae abe eth SocRATES; Then how big is the side of the eight foot figure? ‘screen ort eta Nak SOCRATES: And a side half the length gave us a square of four feet? ao iad vor: Ye ocaates: Good. Andina square of elt et dob i ‘one and half that? = . vor ocacrEs: WAL not have ide greater han thi ope but Jess than that? Be Poy Tink 7 focaates: Rig Almay anner What you thnk, Now tl se, Warn sdf ang. se a? ‘SOCRATES: Then the side ofthe eight-foot fi ure must be longer ‘than two feet but shorter than four? ne = corse Tedkasee tsp bowing you dunk fi nov: Three feet. ee Focnaen: so, hall oad hal of his be 8, hl of sued ait hee fect Here are no, and sh ton on thd ithe tane eae tasters ee ase ‘secetscompct oman seee ‘ror. Yer SOCMATES: If itis three fet this way and three that, will the ‘whole area be thos times thee feet? ‘ors ilo ike Secnaress And thats howmany? nove Nine Socnares: Whereas the square double our first square had to benow aay? “ “ Scanned with CamScanner308 PLATO: CorLECTED DiaLocurs oy: Eight, SocmATES: But we havent yet got the square of eight feet even froma thre foot side? ov" No, Socnarts: Then what length wll give it? Try to tell ws exactly 16 you dont want to count up, jst show as on the diagram. ‘oY: Iesnouse, Socraten, [just dont know. Socnares: Observe, Meno, the stage e has reached on the path of realectin, At the beginning be dil not know the side ofthe Suare of eight feet. Nor indeed does he know i now, but then be ‘hough be knew ie and answered boldly, as was appropiate he felt a perp. Now however he does el perpen Not only dos be » hocknow the answer e doesnt even thing be knows socnares: archon a better postion ta Socnaree: Ione tn a better postion now in relation to what helt know? ‘tno Tami that 0, Socnares.. So in perplexing him and numbing him ike the stingeay, have me done him aay hati? seNo" Tthink not Soemar3s: In fact we have helped him to some extent toward finding out the right answer, for now not only Is he ignorant off but hem be quite glad to lok for it Up to now, he thought he could speak well and flsenty, on many oceastons and before large a «© ences, on the subject ef a square donb he sae of given square, ‘Maintaining hat must haves sdeof double the length stxno No doubt Socnares: Do you suppor then that he would have atten tela for oem, hat he thought he knew, hohe did be fore he was town into perplexity, beeame aware af his ignorance, And fel desire to know? a Socnars: Then the numbing process was good form? srewo: Lage Socnarrs: Now notice what, starting from this state of per plexity, he wil discover by seeking the truth tn company with foe, 4 though I simply ask him questions without teaching itm, Be ready focatch me if sve him any instruction or explanation instead Sly interrogating him on hs own ops (hocratesheve rubs out the prevlons figures and start again.) ‘ell me, boy, isnot this our aque of four feet? {ae} You understand? Meno 369 4 a ° | a ? F nov: Yes. FocnaTne: Now we can ad another equal to i like this? Iceni) nor: Yes. Socnarss: And a thd here, equal to each of the others? leno SockaT4s: And then we can fill fn this one in the comer? foens:} Rov: Yes ‘Then here we have four equal squares? SocRATES: And how many times the sie ofthe Ast square is the whole? oY Fourtimes. “And we want one double the sae. You remember? Sacnazre: Now dos his line ging from comer to corer cut acho these squares hall? = sore ver Secnarts: And tee ae fore lies encsing thie are? ean, oY: Theyare Socnarss Now think, How bgie tiara? Sov: Ton understand Socnares: Here are four squares. Has not cach line cut off the Annerbaif ofeach of them? ‘ror Yen SOCRATES: And how many such halves ae there inthis figure? co) ov: Four Socnaris: And tow many n this one? [ancD] nov! Te Scanned with CamScanner72 PLATO: COLLECTED DIALocUES socnarss: And what dor: Double. Socnar es: How bigis this Sgure then? jov' Eight feet he relation of four to two? Socnarea, ‘The line which goes frm comer to comer of the square four fest? wor Ye ena Tea: The technical name fori 'agona’ so if me use hae tate, your nto that the gare on the agonal ofthe original squares double tare. ‘tov That iawo, Socrates Socnares: What do you tink, Meno? Has he answered with any opinions that wore nt hisown’?” « "enor No, they wore al hs Socnaress Yet be id not know, as we agreed afew minutes a8. steno: Troe 7 Socnaresy But these opinions were somewhere Sn hn, were they not a Socnat¥s: So a man who docs not know has in himself true pions ona subject without having Knowledge. ‘reo. Iewould pears. Socnarae’ At present these opinions, being newly sxoused, have’ deaite quay. But the stne quedtone foe put thm ‘any cccaions and in ferent ways, you can soe hatin the ed be 4 ‘Rave alnowiedge on the sje as accrate as amd eno. Probably. Focaarss ‘This knowledge wil not come frm teaching but ‘rom questioning. He il ever for hint Meno" Yer Tocnsres: And de ns rcovery of knowledge that is snhimisrecalicion, ati Seo. Yes Socnates: Either then he has at sme dime acquired the knowledge which he now han of he has always posse fe I he af vay possessed he must alvaysbave own, Hn teeter hand he «feted fat some previous me, cannot have boon inti feu IG hw hm roe wil bse he sae ‘ray with al feometrc knowledge, and every oer set Ha any. fe taught him all these? You ought to know, especially be has ‘hen breught up in your hosncold ezno: Yes {now that nae eve taught hin, Socnaree’ And hasbe thas opinion, or hasiche? MENo ar ceo; Itseems we can't deny i Senate: Then ihe didnot acquire them in this fe, en it Immediately clear that he pssesed std had eared them during some other pesed? Steno. Teseems 2. Zocna Tas: When be was notin human shape? Socnar1e: If chen there are going o exis him, both while hes and whilehe is nea man, tre opinions which ean be aroused By foesenng and turned into knowiedge, may we say tat hi sou has then forever in estate of knowledge? Clearly he awa ether sor is Sten: Clay Socnarzs: And if che tuch about reality is always in our su, © tne seth mst be mortal, and one moe take Courage and ty to ie tover~that fs, to Tecolece~what ono doeent happen to Know, of ‘ore corecly remember, adhe moment ‘tewo: Somehow or other belleve you teh. Socnates: Think Lam Tshouldnt keto take my oath on the ‘whol tory, but one thing Iam ready to fight for as long as Tan, tn Word and sct~that that we shall te better, braver, and mor aive Jen if we ble it ight to look Yor what we dont know than if we Helieve there is no potnt in locking becatse what we don't Know We © ‘annerer discover. ‘tENO" There too am sure you are right Sccnarss. ‘Then since we are agreed thet is right to ingle {nto something that ane docs nono. ar you ready to face wih me the gosto, What eine? INENO! Quite ready. All the same, I would rather consider the vestion as put tat the beginning. and hea your views en fe=-hat [Evare we o pursue vrze a something that ean be taugt or do men & Iiveltasagtof nature orhow? ° Soenares: If were Your master ax well as my own, Meno, we should not have tngulred whether or not vistue ean be taught Srehad tasked te main question hat ts. But nt onfy do you {hake oatemp te govern your own setons-—you prize Your Needons, Igepeiebtyo step over mine And bu suceede, Stallee you have your way There's noting eae fo and i ocems Ye must nguite into a ungle property of something about whose ce « Sendal nature we are sll the dark. jus grant me one sal ela tion of your sway, and allow me, fn considering whether er not ean be taught, to make se ofa hypothens~the sot thing. Peean: at fomeers often wo in thett lagu When they ae asked, forex Spl, about agen aea, whether its poole forthe arent be in fered as a langle tna given circle, they wil probably reply. dont #7 Know yet whether ie full the conditions, but think Y have’ & Scanned with CamScannerym PLATO hypotess which wil ep inthe matter I ha I the ara is 20h that when one bas applied tac a8 rectangle tothe gen ine ley 'he dame] of the clic i dtl by sate oe tangle sila tothe one whic i spp, then, sould sy, one ‘eeu follows; fat the results dsereat. you ask me then, about the nserpin of the Sigur in te cce—-whether posi ot noe am ready to anewer you fn ths hype! way. Lets do te same about vite inc ne dnt Lr what tsar what trembles, let ine a ypehess in investigating whether ts tacable or ot We sally, What ateibte ofthe aoa st vitae Seri achat other Wel in tbe fat pee ‘iyting eae bt Knowledge, sere a poslty of tayo acing servi the language we Sad fort naw nemindig secon af ‘Wenn worry abooe which name we ast give fo the process, but Simply an, Wil be teachable? Tents pln toeveryone tat 2 an ‘SEnbtlaugie myhing except knowledge? ‘uo: That weuaiemy ew Socnates: Ifon the oer hand virtue fs some srt of know- ge Seay could Sete scene Carat Nocnares So tat question i easly seted—I mean, on what condition visas woud eachable urn: Yen Socnares! The next point then, 1 suppose, ts to find out whether vituets knowlege or meshing aifers two: That tenon guendon, ogre Socnaris: Well then, to we ase! that virtue is something so? I that assumption arin oe for reso" Una ' Boonavea: Tha beng so, if there exit any good thing dt ferent from, and not asciate with Kowedge, itil ot Bec tsnly be aay form of knowledge i an theta hand owe Embraces everything tht tv good, weaball be righ to spect tht irwefe knows eno” Aare Socnarae: Pliatthen, tit vrtoe which makes us god? Sern. Ye. Socmares: And if good, then advantageous, Allgood things ace abvantagens, ae bey 50? Scena’ So vive self must be something advantageous? etn: That follows se. ‘ Socnsrea: Now supose we consider what are the sors of tuing that prot ue Take tem in ant Healy we mayen end Stren and ood locks, and weath—dhese and thir Uke we eal SGvatigeoun you agect MENo 373 scexo: Yer SOCRATES: Yet we also speak of ches things as cometimes do- et ‘ngharm. Would you objec to at statement? Socnarzs’ Now look here. What fs the controlling factor which detenmines whether each of these i advantageous or harmful? Int it ight use which makes them advantageous, and lack of i, armaul? ‘MNO: Certtaly. SocmarEs: We must also take spiritual qualities ito consder- ation. You recognize such things as temperance, Justice, courage, ‘Gulckness of mind, memory, ndlilty of character, and others? MANO: ee, ofcourse do. > Socnarzs: Then take any such qualites which in your view are not knowlege but something diferent. Dont you tink they me ‘be harmful as well as advantageous? Courage, for Instance, If It something thoughtless Justa sort of confidence. Isn'ta that tobe ‘confident without reason does a man harm, wherens& Teasoned con ence prot himn? ‘Temperance and quickness of mind are no dif. ng and discipline are probable in conjunction with wis dom, but withost it harm ‘Steno: That s emphatically tue. Sockares. ln shor, everyhing that the human spit under: « takes o suffers wil Yad t happiness when it i guided by wisdom, bhatt the opposite, when guided by fly. IatENG! Areasoatlconelsion Socnares: If den virtue nan ateibute ofthe sir, and one hich cannot fll tobe benefit must be wisdom forall spitual ‘Tualits in and by hemeelves are neler advantageous no harm fh, but become advantageous or harmful by the presence with them & ‘of wisdom or oly If we accep this argument, then virtue, tobe some. ‘thing advancageous, must bea sort of wisdom, ee sockatrs~ Togo back to the other class of things, wealth and the like, of which we sid Jun now tht they are sometimes good tnd semetimes harmful, ist the same With them. Just as wisdom wen it governs out other psychological impulses tos then toa Sarge, fly vr hen oat, whe nd yeh ne nd onto of these material anata makes them prosabl, and by wrang « ‘se renders them barmfl ce — MENO: Certainly. Socnares: And the right users the mind ofthe wise man, he rong nth nd the els eno: That ieee, Scanned with CamScannerbr PLATO: COLLECTED DIALocuES Socaarzs: So we may sayin general tat the goodness of nom spiral asets depends on our spneual character, and the goodness CPt on wisdom. ‘Thi argument shows thatthe advantageous Slement must be wisdom, and virtue, we agree, i advantageous, 50 fae amounts to saying dat virtue, eer in whole orn part, le isto tex: The argument seems tome alr enough. Socnates: ifs, good men cannot be good by nature. Socusres’ Whereis ancder pont If they mee, dere would roby be exper tong ut who eld engi te arly od an cary stage. They would point them out fo sand we abo {ake them and thut them away safely tn th Acropolis, sealing them {Up more carefully than bullion to protect them fem corruption and tehsure that when they came to maturity they would be of tise to the MAN camo: Ie would be key enough. Zocnates Since then goodness does not come by nature, is got earning? ‘sfet fio: 1 danse how we can ecape te concoson Indeed t fa obvious on Our assumpaan that it virtue Is Knowledge, tb teache * socnaras: I suppose so. But I wonder if we were right to bind ‘urscves to tat ‘steno. Wel it seemed all ight jst now. ecnares Yer bua he md it hat gt to scm al ight no ‘only just now But at ls moment andin the future ZNO” OF eo, But what his cared 07 t ake you tum aganat and suspect hat vite may not be Knotledge? sScnarns fill you 1 dont wtharaw trom epson that sticis knowledge must be tcachabl, but a forks bing owl, ‘sce whether you think my doubts on this poi are well founded tt fnyihing-not virtue only—is a posible subject of instruction, must there not be eachers and students oft? steno: Sue sockarts: And what ofthe converte, that if thee ae nlther teachers nor stadens of a subects we may tafely infer tat cannot hetaught? SHENO: That iste, But don't you think there are teachers of weenares: All can say i that I have often Ioked 1 weit dear yan inate al my efit feat fed the gh Thave had plenty of fcow searches the Kind of men especally whom {baie to have most experience ia such mater But look, Meno, hhre's.a plece of luck. Any has ust at down beside us. We couldnt do beet than make him a partner in our ingury. nthe Best place be MENO a 4s the son of Anthemion, 4 man of property and good sens, who didnt ge his money out of the blue or ass ithe Lemesiay of ‘ebes who as just come into the fortune ofa Cocsus~but earned it by hls own rains and hard work. Besides this he shows himscf = Atcen, modest idzen with no arrogance ot barbastorelensivenest ‘shout im. Also he brought ups san well and had him properly ede ‘ted, a4 the Athenlan people appreciate, Look how they eee. hist {nto the highest ofces tn the site. This is Certainly the ght sot of ‘an with whom to inquire whether there are any teachers ef Wr te, andi so who ey ae Please help us, Anytus—Meno, who i a frend of your family, and pected ot ho nay bee taser fe ak ticle this 1' we wanted Meso to bncame a food daca aboliar ‘etendintoth dctrsto be aght? . Socnatrs: And if we wanted him to become a shoemaker, to the sthocmakers? fanvros: Yes Socuares: And soon with other trades? anvrus: Yee Socnatrs:. Now another relevant question, When we sy that to make Meno a doctor we should be right in sending him the ds {or have we in mind hat the senile thing ir to send him te Uae & he pli te mij aes han fo te wh do, ho iarge a fee as professionals, having announced that they sre pared teach nivover et come tid eer ee fawvros: Yer Socares: ‘The same is surly tue of fue playing and ater accomplishments I You want to make someone & perleraer + ‘the lute would be very Foolish to refse to send him to toes whe Undertake to teach the at and are pid fori, but too and bother ‘ther people instead and have him try to lear from them yeep ‘who dont setup to be teachers r tke any pops tn the bye ‘hich we want Gur young man fo leatn: Docent that sound ves ee Feuonable? “ANYTUS: Sheer stupid, should say Socnatrs: 1 apres. And pow we tan both consule together #1 shout our visitor Meno. He has been tling me ll Uis while tet he fongs to acquire the kind of wisdom and vive whieh is men aac sage an estate ar govern a ety, to look after their parents ard to ene {ain and send off guests ia proper sje, both thet wa couneyrnen 4nd foreigners. With ths in mind. to whown would be right to send ‘im? What we have jst said seems to show that the right people ae {hone who profes to be teachers of virtue and fer thek servees rely to any Greck who wises to ear, harping s aed es for it instruction, Scanned with CamScanner378 LATO: COLLECTED DIALOGUES axyrus: Whom doyou mean by that, oerater? Sacustca! Surly Jou brow Jounal nt tey are the men called opis « NNTTUS: Good heavens, what a thing to say! Thope no relative ot mins or any of my fiends, Athenian ot foreign, woud be s0 mad Ss to go and ln himself be ruined by thoue people: Thats what they i, the manifest run and‘corruption of anyene who comes Into on tact wth them ‘ocnaTzs: What, Anytus? Can they be so diferent from other claimants to ureful knowledge that the} noe ony. dont do food, Iike the rest, o the material that ane puts in thelr charge, But on the Contrary poll --and have the erontery to take monoy for doing 4 $07 I for one find it aicul to believe you. I know that one of them lone, Protagoras, eared more money from belng a Sophist than an futetandingly fi eretsman Ike Phiias and ten other sculptors put together A'man whe mends old shoes or restores coats couldn't get ray with i for a month if he gave them back in worse condition than he received them, he would Soon Gnd himself starving. Surely It 4 incredible that Protagoras took in the whole of Greece, comupting ‘ns pupils and eending them away worse than wien te came ols for more than forty years. I believe be was nearly seventy when be ‘ied, and had been practicing for frty years, and all that te—in- ‘Sed to thle very day-—his reputation hasbeen consistently high, and there are plenty of others bredes Protagoras, some before his Sime 2 and bers sll alive. Are wo to suppose from your remack that they onseiouay deceive and vuln Young men, or are they unaware oft hemselves? Can these Tematkably clever men—as some regard ‘hem—bemad encugh for that? ‘axYrue: Far from i, Socrates. It isnt they who are mad, but rather the young men who hand over thelr money, and thowe re ' sponsble fr tiem, who let them get inte the Sophiss hands, are even swore, Worst of ail ate the cles who allow them in or doa expel them, whether tbo a foreigner or one of themselves win tes that ‘ortof game, socnarrs: Has one ofthe Sophists done you a personal injury, cor why are you sohard on tern? “nvrus: Heavens, n01Tve never in my life had anything to do with 'a'sngle one of them, nor would I hear of any of my family SOCRATES: So,you've had noexperience of them tal? Asyrve. And don' rant any ether © __ Socaarzs: You surprise me. How can you know what is goed orbad in something when you have no experienc of 1 NaNvrus: Quite easly At any rate I now thelr kind, whether ‘ve ad experience or not It must be sacond sight, I suppose, fr how else you MENo 377 low abou them, jing ‘gine, Howeres ing from what you tell me yourself, Teant lin eso ans tasking whowe igcrucdon Wa hee oy " eth Sophie OS ANYTUS: Why nt tell him yourseit? ses tings a tl tion the men who Sn my oplon seat thes Hinge eaten Br telpoumayal Re | as ig nse sy and Nowe our Fe Sen fy Anne” 7M Ane ‘anedX TUE; Bo ty mea part indua seer deeman whom he happens to mee ir keg eect Zocnastim alpine opine” spontaneously seit eid ete Benlemen get theit foe qualices ‘aught vires to others? were, and yet able to teach This set ‘s-have hey ais bear at asthe also ben food eas of ays Fat THe Eis deg now not wheter rar ree roa Gar te sae sce geen ue in weet aNvrUs: Yes, none beter. sniffer, Ant apne, mat hve en «gn ANY TUS: T suppose so, iPhe wanted tobe and throw a javelin fea Sohal fom tt en, Somes roca rks Ra Scanned with CamScannergS PLATO: COLLECTED DIALOGUES anvrvs: Yes Socmares: No one, chen, could say that there was anything ‘wrong withthe boys naturl powers? = Mirren: Perbaps not Socnarzs: But have you ever heard anyone, young or old, say ‘that Ceephantus, the son of Themistocls, wat a good and wise man inthe way that his father was? ‘anya! Certainly no. Socnarze. Must we conclude then that Themistocles aim was to educate is son in other accomplishments, but not to make Mum ny beter haa his neighbor in his own type of wisdom that I ‘Sposa that vite could be taught? ‘iwveros: I hardy dink we can Sdcnatzs. So much then for Themistocles asa teacher of vir tue, whom you yourself agree to have been one of the best men of 4 former tines, Take another example, Aristides, som of Lysimachus ‘You accept im as a good man? Socnarzs He oo gave his son Lyslmachus the best education in Athena, in all wobjets where teacher could help. but id be ‘make him a better man than his neighboe? You know his, 1 ik, “nd can say what be ake, Or gain there is Pericles, that great and » wise man, He brought up two sons, Paralus and Xenthippes, and [a cho caught sling, mum sbi, and al the othr led pursue tht were a good a any in Athens, Did he hen not want Rpmake them good ment Yes, he wanted thai, no doubt, but Tam ‘raids somiting that cannot be done by Teaching. And In case ‘ou shoul sink that only very fee, and those the most tsignicant, « Ticked thie power, consider that ‘Thucyaides sto had wo ss, LMelesias and Stephanus, to whom be gave an exellent ducaton ‘Among otber things they were the best wrestlers in Athens, fore fave one to Kanthiss to ain andthe oder to Euorus~the two who, Fiinderstand, were considered the Snest wresers of their tine. You remember? ‘anv rua: Thavebeardof hem. Socnares Surely ten be would never have had his cilren «4 taugit these expensive purslt and yet refund fo teach them tobe fool men which would have cost Hothing at all=if ree could Ne been taught? You are noe ging to tel me that Theydides was a ‘of no account or tat he not plenty of frends both at Athens Sn among the ales? He came of an influential family and was a {rea power both here and in the west of Greece. Tf virtue could have Elen laugh, be would have found the man to make hit sons good, «cher among our own ctzens or sbroa, supposing is polled! dues {ett him no tine to ot himaclt. No, my dear Anyi, ooks as if cannot be taught. ANY TUS: You seem to me, Socrat ml aa re oe ch eae dare say that in alles inca ‘seeraaly so her, a expect you now oor FM ad He UQGBATES: Anya semi angry, Meno: and Lam no mney Be Baten nite Se roms spat Sy Sr aon de ak eta ta rr vag Se Ana nom ATES: Ought we then to class as teachers of Ire ‘are not even agreed that it can be taught’ 2 MENG Hardy, think. sm mst I ey ep Saari gi an ey if aw et tw span ae Ener Trea cat aay Like meat tee ‘iin thy ze ad somedzes eink they ant rog"e—sometes Socnaras: Has ie a ver occurred to you th wy ORAS Has ee You tht you and our states: Facet lens hs? The post Theos ikcwios see vn shableandih another that etna "CRATES In the elegias in which he writs: Ea: donk an with en of power and weigh, = cot to fin the favor of he eat 7 Fev ine mer tence ven wy wn lav company dye what wit ease oe There he speaks asf vir stent ri ioe canbe tug doen he? TEs: But eleewherebe changes bis ground ie Vere mind bya ceuted and need Immense etrds had som te foc fled ‘of the people who could de tis. Moreover, Theo 23 Scanned with CamScanner380 PLATO: COLLECTED DIALOGUES ‘No good mans ton would eer wortlos be, ‘Taught by ine counsel Bat no teacher kl ‘Centra good what i rated ‘Do you see how he contradits himself? sero Pay Socmar3s: Can you name anyother subject, n which the pro- ‘ese teachers are not only not recognized as teachers of other, but fare thought to have no understanding of It themselves, and to be Bo toad a the very subject they profess fo teach, whereas those who are {eknowledged tobe the best at tare into mings whether ian be ‘aught or not? When people aze so confured about «subject, can you ‘ay tha they rein a true sense wachers? Seine Certainly not Socnarxs Wel if nether che Sophists nor those whe diay fine qualities themselves are teachers of vltue, Lam sue no one log ‘canbe, andif there are no teachers, there can be na student eter Mano: Tqulteayree, Socnares: And we have also agreod that a subject of which there were neither teachers nor students Was not one which could be Now there turnout to be neither teachers nor at ent of vite, st would appear that wre cannot be gh ‘eex0: Sot worms, ve have mate na mistake, sad t makes sme wonder, Sorates, whiter threaten fact no good men eal ot ow they are produced when they do apper. Socharis: Ihave a mpc, Meno, that you and 1 are not such good Out masters Ganges and Prods have not teamed es rope. We ms certainly take ourselves fo handy and ty to find fomeone who wil improve us by hoak or by crook. {sy ha th out ‘ecent gucarton im tnd for abs enbugh we fled to are i nt only under the gudance of Knwldge that hutsas a ton is wel ane righ conducted. belone tha may be what prevents strom sing how it ethat shen Se ade goo, Sexo" What doyoumean? Socaaras: Thin We were conect, were we not in agen {hat gl eft be roll or fl? cant boris MENON. Sccnaris: And again that they willbe of some use if the cont our sf aright that sso waacortet? ” reno. Yes Socnares’ But in nsting that knowlege was a sine qua om fori leadership, we ok like Being mistaken, “Togas 45 Meno 38 atzno: How 0? Socnar#s” Let me explain, If someone knows the way 0 Lars, or anywhere eae you lit, then wen be goes there and taker ‘thers with htm he willbe a god and capable guide, you would agree? ‘Menno: Ofcourse. Socnares: But if a man judges comeety which ts the road, ‘hough he has never been thee an doesnt ow it wil be ot also others aight? uit enor Ys he wl Socharis: And as long as he has a correct opinion on the ‘points about which the other has knowledge be wl be just as good 4 le, believing the tat but nt knowing ewe" aa got oot — Jocnares: Therefore true opinion sas god a gulde as know! for the purpose of acting righ. That ia what we let out ost ‘Stn out Sachsen af tf nus of wimaes when we sald at Knowledge isthe only aude to ght action. There was alo, Kt seems, true opinion, Meno! Ksceme a0 Socnare: So right opinion is something no less useful than now. DHENO: Except that che man widh knowledge will always be svcotrfl and de man wih ight opinion ony sometimes Socnares: What? Wil he not aways be succensal so long a8 tehas the ight opinion? scene, Tt eo pnts hat wonder hy nowledge shouldbe so mcs more peed than right opinion, and ir deed how there any difference between then Socnatis: Shall tell you the reason for your surprise, or do syouknow it? reno No, tle Socnarns’ Is because you have nt observed the statues of edaius Pethaps ou dont have them in your Coury ‘Steno: What makes you say that? Socnarsa. They to, t no one tes them down, run away and scape fied, hey sty where they are pt Srewo, Whatol Socnares If you have one of his works untethered, i i not ‘orth much gies Jou the spike a naway slave ot tethered {pein i very valuable, for ny aro mageoent cresona And Ty yb ing oe mtr ong. Tae ‘tinions are tine thing and do ll sorts of good slong as they Bay I ther place, bot they wil not say long. Ty run away fom 2 Tas mind so they ate nt worth och unt you ter them by ‘otking oat the reason. That proces, my deat Meo i recollection, 2 Te agreed eaicr. Once they ae Ud down, they Breese knowlege, Scanned with CamScanner982 PLATO: cortEeTED praLocuEs and are stable. That i why knowledge is something more valuable {an eight opinion. What distinguishes one from te ether a the tether “tno: It des seem something Ike that, certainly > focnarzs: Well f course, Phave ony been using an analogy ‘np not hnowidge, Due Lam uae gue at ght opinion and knowledge are diferent. There are few fhe Tsou claim to know, but that atleast fs among them, what ‘verse - Stexo: You ae quite right. Socnares: Andis this gt to, that tre opinion when gor cerns any course of action produces a good a est aknowledge? Seno Yeu, that tooia ight think © focnares: 80 that for practleal purposes right opinion ino Jess daeful thas knowledge, and the mat who hati ie les useful than the one who knows wor That ic Socnares: Now we have agreed thatthe good man is usefo ahiwo. Yer. Socnarxs: To recapitulate then, assuming that there are men ‘god und useul to the community, is not only knowledge that makes 4 them so, but als ight opinion, and neither ofthese comes by nate but bot are acquired or do ou thinkeitherof them fnatural? Mano. No. Socnarss: Sof both are acquired, good men themselves are nae god aire. Socmirss: That being #0, the next thing we inquired was whether their goodness was a matter of teaching, tid we decid tht {would be, i vrue wore knowledge, and conversely, that if could be taughe, st would be knowledge nena. Yes, © SOCMATEG: Next, that if thore were teachers of i, i coud be ‘aught but not f there merenane. Steno: That warso. Socmarxs But we have agreed that there are no teachers oft and so that cannot be taught and is not know. Sexo: Weed SOCRATES: At the sume time we agreed that Its something god, snd that o be useful and good conslats in giving right guidance ‘eho Yee, t@ Soctares: And that these two, true opinion and knowledge, ‘are the only things which dee ws aight and the poseesign of which ‘akos aman a true guide, We may except chance, because wha turnt fut ight by chance i not due to human direction, and say that where Ihuman concrol leads to night ends, these we Priniplen are alee tive, tru opinion and knowledge. MEXO * MENO: Yer Lage. Socrates: Now since virtue cannot be tu ‘er blieve ito be knowledge so thar ne of our gan ae are fl insoles i excluded and Knowledge ine he gale aah Mano: No. sezio: No doubeitioasyousay Socnares. That leave os wth elated conjecture which say Counties welfare Tht pons ferent from that o prophesy ‘son wer Sy rath, bt 7 a sting eae SOCRATES: And aught we hot fo recion those men divine who it Bo coneclos hough ee epee noe in what ey dorset? ha ‘weno: Corte socnares: We are right therefore to give this thle to {roca pris andthe props that I etch ye very Scion. Stteacn te, when bythe spc Hee ‘os tg ove emai hay ‘Ege en ew oer en MEWO" Certaly er ke himself. Should there be such ‘he lvng racially what Homer sad Tiree ‘ene described him a the only one te undarwosld heer ae Samana =a see * Otssey 10406 Scanned with CamScanner384 PLATO: COLLECTED DIALOGUES 1 seer ocnyzss' On cut pesnt evoring he, whoever bas vitae i Sees mea penance ie ceemnnriet nore ace a coon oe taraua eee tear « by convincing hm that what you now believe Ss te Ifyou succeed, Lae EUTHYDEMUS ‘This ts perhaps ofall the dialogues the one that makes the Athens of Socrates and Plato seem farthest remaved from us. We are taken back to.a time when language had begun to be of great importance int {elf and reasoning war largely verbal. pun or a double meaning ‘might decide a serious dacussion. Here Socrates confronts Euthy. ‘dems amd his brother who are both sovalled estes, or fighters with ‘words and tn their fig with Socrates, who professes tobe only thelr Dupil this sort of ‘verbal trickery occurs constantly and. becomes Extremely tiresome. For instance, when Socrates ash the sense of @ ploare used by Dionysodorus, he sn turm asked, “Ts thee soul te {hings whick have sense, when they have sense? Or have also the sou lees things some?” Saoretes answers, “Only the tings with soul” He {5 then ttursphantly refuted, “Then do you know any phrase which has soul?” Ac t Socrates hswer he replies, "Then why did you ask tne just now wht sense my phrase had” This acknowledged bythe liage audience gathered around them tobe a knockout blow. Plato, ofcourse, holding up to rd all that soe of talk, but he eal concerned to pot out how hard itt to put em idea nto ‘words. A Russian poet wth all the resources of modern dictionaries lt he disposal hes ta,"A thought when spoken tsa he Something like that mast often have been tx Plato's mind athe sought not only to now the erath, but to discover away to expres Te had to dewse Is own language, the language all plosopiy would henceforth use, datetime when twas becoming the fashion to use words wtthoutre- ergy sae The Boapdemu shows voll whet Plat had 0 com Scanned with CamScanner