To add to my idea: People in Westeros could take their religions more seriously.

White Haven could be

pretty evenly split between followers of the old gods and the seven and full of religious strife. Followers
of seven could mainly be immigrants and descendants of immigrants from the south so an ethnic or
proto-nationalistic sentiment would add to the religious issues. House Manderly could have a serious pr
problem with other northern nobles.

Current Starks could have problems because of Ned's toleration of Catelyn's religion. Ned's bannermen
would like to make sure that his children are raised in the right religion. Clergy of old gods could play a
significant role in raising Stark children and the kids might feel torn between old gods and their mom.

Jon could react to way Catelyn treats him by becoming unusually devout follower of the old gods.

There could be different moral beliefs and practices in the North due the religion. Maybe Ned didn't
think there to be any problems from Catelyn about Jon because in the North recognized bastards are
raised in their fathers house.

And not all differences need to make Northmen nicer. Maybe it isn't that long ago when human sacrifice
was still practiced. Maybe, in secret, some still practice it. Even some important people. There could also
be lot of animal sacrifice. etc.

Well, I have some ideas

- The Northmen don't call their deities Old Gods, but Gods. They are very clear on that their deities are
very present, not outdated or "old"
- Their priests are called Green Clerics. Like most other organizations in westeros, members of the Green
Clergy are supposed to give up their family names and live lives of celibacy. The Green Clerics consider
their order to be their sole family, which is why clerics have family-based titles. Acolytes are called Little
Siblings, full members Big Siblings, high ranking members, such as leaders of individual Godshomes, are
Parents, and members of the Green Circle, who lead all of Green Clergy, are called Grandparents.
- Godshomes are the Northern equivalent of Septs, but are closer to meeting houses than churches.
Along with being homes to the Green Clergy, Godshomes act like town halls, where Northerners come
to debate on community matters. Each Godshome is meant to be self-sufficient. The largest Godshome,
Circlehome, is located in Winter Town, and the Green Circle lives there.
- As a contrast to the Southern court, which emphatizes "Acting like a lady", the ascetic and spartan
Northern court emphatizes "Being a lady". In the survival oriented society of the North, work and
community are all. As such Green Clerics disapprove of frivolities such like tourneys, along with idleness
and lying. The Lords are not supposed to flaunt their wealth, but enjoy it privately. Recognized bastards
are expected to be raised in their father's household, because extra hands are always needed.
- The Big Sister assigned to the Stark household tends to clash with Septa Mordane, because the Green
Cleric considers singing, dancing and the like sinful revelries, believing that the girls should learn
practical skills, such as making candles and soap. The Big Sister would also favor Arya over Sansa,
because Arya knows how to manage a household, and like a Northern Lady should, lives among her
people.
- Some of the more extreme Green Clerics believe that anything that can be considered fun and/or
wasteful should be banned, because they distract from piety and survival. Jon also believes this. Once he
got angry at Sansa for wearing jewelry in Godswood.
Thanks.

Father Benjen... sounds good. Actually, he might still be able to fight. I was thinking that the Green
Clergy is not the pacifistic order Faith of the Seven is. However, there is no separate Faith militant, but
rather the Clerics are taught how to fight and organize defence in order to defend their communities.
Men are required to learn the arts of war, but for women it is voluntary. However, as Green Clerics are
responsible for dealing with their own justice, each Mother needs to know how to swing a sword. Also,
men and women usually live in separate Godshomes, the most notable exception being Circlehome.

I think at first the Green Clerics learnt the stories orally, but later they were written down. However, the
Green Clerics in the Lands beyond the Wall still learn By heart.

In fact, one of the darker aspects of Green Clergy comes forth beyond the wall. For the Green Clergy, the
survival of a community is paramount, and each Godshome teaches skills that are considered useful and
necessary both to each other and their community. In the Haunted Forest there is a hidden Godshome,
whose members are Wildlings. There "Free Clerics" view themselves not as being under the Green
Circle, but rather as guardians of the Free Folk, usually acting as peacemakers when conflicts get too
bloody. However, their teachings and stories involve things that Wildlings consider useful, including
raiding. The Free Clerics themselves don't usually involve themselves in raiding, but rather memorize
stories of successful raids in order to know when it is a good time to strike. They also memorize what is
best loot from raiding.

Religion Overhaul in Westeros? Here are my two cents about what should be done.

The Faith of the Seven (New Gods):

 The Stranger should have more love. Instead of existing to perpetuate a fear of death, the
Stranger should exist to lessen the fear of death. Perhaps, seeing the Stranger as a merciful
aspect who, rather than see mankind suffer in eternity from their various ailments (their bodies
growing weaker and weaker in old age, cut apart and left on the battlefield, terribly sick,)
decides to put an end to their suffering and to bring them to a place where they will suffer no
more (for the Virtuous, anyway.)

 Focus on Good Works. There should be more mentions of Septons and Septas giving charity to
the poor, the sick, and the unfortunate. This was one of the Catholic Church's jobs in the
Medieval Ages (the Catholic Church being a prime source of inspiration for The Faith of the
Seven.)

 More hierarchy. It goes from incredibly local (Begging Brothers/Septons) to incredibly distant
(Most Devout/High Septon.) There should be more people in between those (someone that the
local septons would report to in a region, and someone that those septons+ would report to
who would manage the affairs of the kingdom in question, the North excluded.)

 More military orders, not just the Faith Militant and the Warrior's Sons. (Specifically, a Faith
Hospitillar who are focused more on providing healing and aid to the unfortunate. It escapes
disbandment by not being specifically a military order, as it's goal is to provide charity and not to
 attack things. It's just that the Faith Hospitillar don't disarm any knights that decide to join the
order...)

 Septons/Septas should replace some of the functions of the Maesters, at least for the lower
classes. The Maesters become more associated with the nobility, and the Septons become more
associated with the Smallfolk. If you are sick, for instance, you would see a Maester if you were
a noble and a Septon if you were one of the Smallfolk (or a poor lord/landed knight.)

Elder Gods (Old Gods):

(Old implies that they are outdated, while Elder implies they are wiser.)

 An established priesthood. Heavily decentralized compared to that of the Faith, and separated
into two groups: Weirkeepers and Green (Wo)Men. Weirkeepers are local and tend to the
Weirwoods of a place, while Green Wo(Men) wander around, telling tales and sharing lessons. It
is possible to switch between them, for example, a Green Wo(Man) may find a Weirwood with
no one to tend to it and may decide to stay.

 An emphasis on sacrifice. Usually limited to the sacrifice of animals (usual practice is that
whenever an animal is to be killed/slaughtered it will be done before the Weirwood: the blood
for the trees and the flesh for men.) Human sacrifice was done in the past, up until Jaehaerys'
wife stopped the practice for good. Since that point, "executions" have been done before a
Weirwood, though in lesser numbers. Some take this to mean self-sacrifice as well (literal in the
old days, metaphorical in the modern day.)

 Tenants are mainly focused around self-improvement and helping the community. The old are
not valued because they are old, but for the wisdom they offer to the next generation. (A point
of contrast between the Elder Gods and the Faith of the Seven. The Faith of the Seven believe in
acts of charity to those poor, old, and unfortunate, while the Elder Gods are more inclined to
call them a burden on the community as a whole and are to be sacrificed for the rest at the first
opportunity. Old men who share wisdom are accepted and revered in the Elder Gods, but one
who spends his time getting drunk will earn only scorn.)

 Oral tradition plays a large part in the culture, but since being formed into the Seven Kingdoms
by Aegon, there has been a steady progression of a written records.

Some other side things should be variants of the Faith of the Seven, in particular, the North and in
Dorne.

 Northern variants come in two versions. The first is the one practiced by the Manderly's and the
houses and smallfolk sworn to them. It still worships the Seven as they are, but sermons and
theology tend to bear resemblance to Elder God ideas, namely in self-sacrifice and that charity
should be given in order so that those receiving can be of help (charity exists to help someone
"get back on their feet," but if someone takes advantage of charity they should not receive it.)
The second variant pops up in the towns and villages on the border between Manderly and
Northern influence, and attempt to directly combine the Faith of the Seven with the Elder Gods.
  The Dornish variant mainly concerns the Mother and Maiden. Statues of the Mother may bear
more of a physical likeness to the Mother Rhoyne than do those of the Andals, but the character
is consistent. The Maiden, meanwhile, is reinterpreted as more a vision of childhood and
innocence than purity.
If the Green Clerics are strongly involved in the laws and justice, I can see there coming to
be an overlap between the Clerics and the Lords, possibly similar to how the Church and
State are very closely intertwined in Islam (if I correctly understand how religion in
countries like Iran is organized, I probably don't though), or possibly several Bishopric like
lordships at the lower levels. Possibly have the Stark in Winterfell be a very important
person in the Faith of the Forest, Rivers, and Rocks?

UltimatePaladin said: ↑
The Faith of the Seven

Maybe have some schisms forming in the years before the Conquest due to the influence
that Oldtown is attempting to leverage, that were largely suppressed for a time after the
conquest due to dragons and a truce while they try to re-figure out the board, only to have
them fairly recently come out of the woodwork again?

UltimatePaladin said: ↑
Elder Gods (Old Gods)

Maybe the Green Men could have a focus in the education of the community in a fashion
similar to a public school system (with a number of differences due to the time period)?
Such a thing could lay a foundation for an order that competes with the Maesters and
Septry in the education of the community and the lords and ladies, whose heirs could be
sent to their overlords to receive a "community" based education (with all of a lords vassals
sending their kids in for a several months at a time with periodic recalls or over the
winters), as well become acquainted with their peers that they will be ruling alongside.

I placed some variants of the faith that showed up in the North and Dorne (as they were the
most noticeable.) As for other places...

The Vale can be considered a holdout for the Traditionalist/Fundamentalist groups of the

Faith. Very strict, very literal reading of the texts. This is mainly born out of the consistent
conflict between the Mountain Men (who practice the religion of the Old Gods as seen in
canon,) which has lead to radicalization. The Three Daughters, meanwhile, may feature
webbing the hands of some of the statues: mostly the Mother (or Maiden,) and the Father.
The Father is associated with the skies and The Maiden (or Mother) is associated with the
seas, with other aspects having various geological or meteorological features.

The Crownlands, in contrast, hold the most tolerant region of the Faith. This is mainly due
to the presence of the capital, King's Landing, wherein the Targaryens married in defiance
of the Faith and being a hub of trade between Westeros and Essos. Ironically, despite being
the headquarters for the Faith there is a fair amount of skepticism towards the Faith here.
For this reason, the Crownlands are a favorite location for rulers to pick their High Septon
from.

The Stormlands bear hints of influence from the gods of the First Men (not the Elder Gods,
the gods that the First Men worshipped before them.) This is mainly seen in the Stormlands
depiction of the Warrior. The common depiction of the Warrior is a Knight, clothed in plate,
wielding a blade, and usually with the body of an Adonis (thin but muscular.) In contrast,
the Stormlands prefer buffer, tougher version of the Warrior (built more like a bear - think
Rebellion-Era Robert,) wielding an ax or hammer.

The Westerlands can be considered a somewhat traditional region, similar to the Vale

(though not as extreme,) the result of frequent raids from the infidel Ironborn. This is
somewhat mitigated by the attempts at reform (and therefore times where there are less
raiding,) by the Lord Paramounts of the Iron Isles before they are replaced and the raiding
ramps up. Somewhat of a minor note, the Smith is depicted as less gruff, and more precise
than in other regions, depicted making jewelry and fine crafts as much as he makes swords
and armor.

The Reach can be considered the "True" center of the Faith, as it is the home of the Starry
Sept (which was the center of the Faith many centuries before the construction of the Great
Sept of Baelor.) There is a much greater Emphasis on the "Seven-Are-One" doctrine, even
among the smallfolk, taught due to the proximity to the High Septon and passed down from
generation to generation by the smallfolk and nobility afterward. Like the Vale and the
Westerlands, it bears some amount of traditionalist/fundamentalist doctrines due to raids
from the non-Seven-Worshipping Ironborn.

The Riverlands features a more militant Faith. Having a history of being attacked by the
infidel Ironborn, the infidel North, the Vale, the Stormlands, the Reach, the Westerlands,
(and the once-in-a-lifetime Slave Raid from the Free Cities,) the septons train in the use of
weapons (mainly maces and blunt weapons,) and their septs are well fortified and stocked
with supplies. For the longest time, the Riverlands was the largest recruitment pool for the
Faith Militant (Poor Fellows and Warrior's Sons alike.) 

Spoiler: TL;DR version
Vale: "Burn in the Seven Hells, Treehugger!"
Crownlands: "Whatever."
Stormlands: "You'll have to send me there first!"
Westerlands: "Shiny thing- Ironborn get out!"
Reach: "One, grant me strength- Ironborn, seriously leave."
Riverlands: "I am just done with all of this."

Bromjunaar said: ↑
Maybe the Green Men could have a focus in the education of the community in a fashion similar to a
public school system (with a number of differences due to the time period)? Such a thing could lay a
foundation for an order that competes with the Maesters and Septry in the education of the
community and the lords and ladies, whose heirs could be sent to their overlords to receive a
"community" based education (with all of a lords vassals sending their kids in for a several months at
a time with periodic recalls or over the winters), as well become acquainted with their peers that they
will be ruling alongside.

I referenced that, with the Green (Wo)Men "...telling tales and sharing lessons..." Though, I
could have been more clear on what those tales and lessons were (mainly practical things.
Rarely expect a Green (Wo)Men to be skilled in any one thing, but to have a wide range of
skills that they can teach: rarely expert warriors for example, but they know the basics to
teach an aspiring lad how to fight.

I like a lot of this, and I had been doing some work on overhauling the Faith for my story, though I hadn't
started on the Old Gods. This is how I would describe my overhauled version of the Faith.
It starts in Andalos as a land-based monolatrous form of polytheism, with the Seven being associated
with a number of pre-Andal pantheons in the area. For example, the Mother could be borrowed in large
part from Mother Rhoyne (more on the irony of this later). However, what makes the Faith different, at
least in the eyes of its early adherents, is that the Seven made themselves manifest in the hills of
Andalos, and according to some schools of thought took human form. What makes them different from
the squabbling, capricious, do ut des pantheons of the surrounding pre-Rhoynish, pre-Valyrian peoples is
that the Seven acted as one in giving Hugor of the Hill the tools he needed to be a king and in promising
him a kingdom to rule. This is the beginning of Septentarianism as it later appears by the time of the
events of canon. It's also worth noting that due to the fact that the Seven each represent a societal role,
we begin to see a society organized along stricter class lines than what appears in First Men culture and
lingers in groups like the Wildlings and the (Vale) Mountain Clans, where doing good works is important,
but it's also important that such things be done in the context of one's role in society, and that an almost
dharmic understanding of the path to the gods' favor takes hold.

These stricter gender/class roles would be reinforced by the conquest of Westeros, especially in the
Vale, where according to the WOIAF the Andal nobility ground the First Men underfoot and forced them
to adapt. This is the same time where I think septries/large septs would take the role of the middlemen
you proposed. In fact, much like many historians see the role of bishop predating the papacy, the
septries would predate the office of the High Septon, who up until the Conquest would have been a
respected moral authority/authority on theological matters at best, and not someone who would be
expected to actually intervene in the affairs of particular septs. My justification for septries serving this
role is that the faith also seems to have no mention of seminaries, and large gathering places of septons
and brothers would be a good place to train clergy and so would eventually be looked to for guidance by
the faithful in the surrounding area. The Father of a septry designated for such a purpose (there would
be other orders, of course, either more focused on contemplation or on the practice of a particular craft
like smithing, along with motherhouses for women which again due to the sexist nature of Andal society
would not have been running things) would be at once bishop and abbot, tasked with running the septry
and for the discipline of those secular clergymen whom he trained. Much like in Eastern Orthodoxy
where the bishop of the largest city/capital becomes a sort of primus inter pares/metropolitan/patriarch
among his brother bishops, the septries closest to the seat of royal/lord-paramountly power would be
looked to for leadership by the smaller septries in a kingdom. After the conquest, they would be the
leading candidates for induction into the Most Devout, who like the College of Cardinals probably would
have just started out as septons in Oltown who helped his High Holiness. 

The fact that some orders of septons would be pursuing particular crafts means that in the case of a lot
of smallfolk, there would be septons around trained in the healing arts or in some other form of craft
much like the maesters, but since maesters are assigned to a castle rather than itinerant or in a septry
where smallfolk can petition for aid, they would be their first choice.

I would argue there are and have been more military orders than just the Poor Fellows and Warrior's
Sons in canon (e.g. Ser Bonifer Hasty's Holy Hundred) and the reason they survived is because
knighthood is already quasi-religious, and these guys just take it a little further without placing
themselves directly under the Faith's jurisdiction, though in practice they might be more willing to take
orders from the Faith then a secular ruler since their oaths might involve something special about being
"Defenders of the Faith."

Now, looping around to the development of the role of the High Septon. Again, based on the fact that
the Faith lacked a central authority for thousands of years before the position was even established, the
impression I get is that the man would have been the highest ranking septon in Oldtown who had
another title bestowed upon him by the Hightowers. Again, what you see is that because Oldtown was
the largest and most powerful city in Westeros at the time, and had access to a considerably larger
amount of trade and learning, its "High Septon" would have more widespread influence, especially if the
early ones proved themselves holy enough that other septries would look to him for guidance. Let's say
that before the conquest the High Septon had power in the Reach similar to the authority the Pope had
in Western Europe after the fall of the Western Empire, but in the rest of Westeros his role was much
more akin to the first among equals the pope was thought to be in the Orthodox East. Proximity to the
maesters means decrees concerning theology and morality would have been more cogent due to the
fact that they would have been more philosophically rigorous, but wouldn't necessarily be seen as
binding on the entire Faith. It would not be until the High Septon was moved to King's Landing, and seen
as the highest ranking clergyman in a united Westeros that his edicts would begin to take more
importance, but even then there would need to be a King willing to enforce them.

It's now that I would like to take a turn towards the theology and its consequences on Westerosi society
and mores (the North included). What I think would drive the Faith from polytheism to monotheism, as I
said before, is the fact that the entire pantheon entered into history at a specific moment and acted as
one to fulfill one purpose. The more philosophical discussions that take place in Oldtown might lead the
maesters to speculate on the existence of a Prime Mover much as Aristotle did, which would be adopted
by the High Septon in his elaborations of the doctrine of the gods. Their unity of purpose would be
ascribed to a unity of essence, with the argument being that the gods are not bound by any sort of
mortal strictures like space and time, making divinity infinite. And if the gods are infinite, how can you
truly say where one ends and the other begins? They all acted in concert when they blessed Hugor of
the Hill, and so this must be a revelation of their interior life as well, not just how they interact with
mortals.

The Father would be seen as the First Principle, who "weds" the Mother much as the (Christian) Father
"generates" the "(Christian)" Son. Namely, that God from all eternity is a god of love and that True,
Perfect Love needs both an object of Love and for that object to reciprocate it. But since love is also
fruitful, this is how the rest of the Seven come into being, each representing the different ways love
expresses itself (the Maiden remaining virtuous, the Crone offering Wisdom, the Warrior protecting,
etc.). In their Incarnation and appearance before Hugor, the Seven divinized the societal roles that had
previously been lacking in supernatural graces, meaning that for a person to fulfill their role in society in
imitation of one of the Persons of the Seven is to have a share in the divine, and this is what makes them
worthy of eternal life. This is a flawed model, obviously, and raises some questions. But no theological
model is perfect, and the ways in which it is unstable would I think be useful to explain the way
Westerosi society has evolved over the centuries.

So what would we expect from a society that follows the Faith? A static (the Seven have made
gender/societal roles holy, so deviation from them is impious), patriarchal (Father is First in the
Godhead, just like a man is first in his household) one, but nonetheless one that could coexist with other
religions like the Old Gods as long as they were in the next kingdom over. Why? Well, the historical
reason would have been because the Andals couldn't conquer the North, and had to accept that they
weren't bringing their religion there any time soon, but this would have been seen as the will of the
gods, and as long as the Northmen ran a society much like theirs, which is something the Starks did,
then the Andals could say that they were fulfilling their duty (here a dharma-like concept) much as the
Andals were, and that forced conversion was unnecessary for the Northman's spiritual well-being.

The Faith would have much less tolerance for heresies that led to a breakdown in this structure, which
helps to explain much of the animosity between the main cultural unit of Westeros (The Reach,
Stormlands, Riverlands, Vale, etc.) and the Dornish. My take on Dornish theology, heavily influenced by
the importance of Mother Rhoyne to the Rhoynar, is that the Father is not the First Principle, but that he
and the Mother are Equals (After all, could the Father wed his daughter? Don't be ridiculous!). They
would counter that True Love must be between Equals and that as such the Mother cannot be
subordinated to the Father. This just so happens to conveniently justify Dornish inheritance law, and
also to undermine the Divinely-infused rules of societal organization that the non-Dornish faithful would
have held so sacred. It would be the perfect justification for even more bloodshed, further pitting the
Marchers and Dornish against one another. There are of course, other doctrines of the gods (for
example, the Vale leans much more heavily towards polytheism due to the ancientness and
unphilosophical nature of their religion, meanwhile the post-Conquest Oldtown might lean towards
modalism, seeing the gods not as distinct persons but as aspects of the One), but those wouldn't
undermine the gods' will for society and wouldn't be considered dangerous as a result. There would also
be a fair amount of folk beliefs mixed in (I like the idea of Lann the Clever, Garth Greenhand, et al. being
gods of the First Men rebranded as heroes, and the Lord of the Seven Hells could have his throne in the
deepest and coldest of them all, being described as a creature not unlike an Other), but again, as long as
things are stable there wouldn't be a problem. Ultimately, there has to be a political power willing to
force theological conformity, which in Westeros AFAIK there hasn't been. 

This is pretty exhaustive and hasn't even touched on the liturgy yet,which I may save for a separate post
or work out as I write my TL. So what do you think? Look ok?