25 Feminism in Egy} A Conversation with Nawal El Saadawi [Nawat Et Saas is criking example ofthe way the social and economic change in Egypt in the pas thiry yar hae altered (he preveupatins of wouen iver inthe fein enorme, andthe sca group rom which they come. She ders consider. fhly in clas and outlook from the Het generation of Egyptian Feminist the begining of the twentieth eenuy. Earl Senin vrre mony fom the urban upper las, often wives of prominent Prliticins. They concerned themedves fist and foremost withthe {ueton of personal feedoms fr women and, more generally, with the rationalist nsucs common alot male plats, Efforts ‘to help women from less privileged sectors of society emphasized charitable work, not radical change Foca on perioral bers was {nderstandable ina soci which allowed itl fedom even othe ‘most economically privileged women. Their methods of seckng change, though, were not likely to have widespread impact in society where the majority ofthe population was poor and ved not incies,butas peasants in Egyp'sovererowded agricultural eon round the Nile Dea Sada comes fom a rarl background. Through education she as become by he own desiton, idle ae o lower idle clas profesional woman living in the cy, Hers war probably the fat generation of women for whom such 2 wanston was at S14 THE RSSENTIAL NAWAL RL SAADAWE all common - and it was not made without effort and determina tion. ‘The challenge was lets achieving an education than making a career afterwards. The strains of working in «profession with tale colleagues who are often unwilling to accept you (something certainly not unknown in Europe and the USA) are considerable. "You have to he 2 genius in order tobe accepted’ she says, °T! js positive because you work very hard an! use all your potential but itis negative in that i causes severe prychological strain and frustration? "The earlier feminists seldom had paid employment, For women of Suadawis generation, ther rights ax working people, as well at the rights of women in the family and in marrage, have come tothe fore, Saadawi seems to consider the two as linked and interacting She is concerned with the continuing power men exercise over women, not just abuses of that power, and constantly links the workings of this patriarchal system to two other factors — class and imperialism. This approach is not universally accepted by feminists in Egype Heer concern over the influence of imperialiam leads her to the view that imitation of Western behaviour and lifestyles — even those associated with liberation’ in the West, expecially sexual freedoms — isnot the way to liberation for Mile Eastern women. She believes women should look for their identity within their own culture. Above ll she hat come tothe eonchsion that women will tot achieve anything without organizing poiealy, on their own Writer and doctor Sandawi's influence has spread well beyond the boundaies of her native Egypt. Asa writer, she has been a powerful force in influene ing women, particularly inthe Middle East, to think about their position in society in new ways. The Hidden Fac of Bve draws on her experience of many years as a doctor working in Egypt. The book, which highlights variety of forms of women's oppression in Egypt. is certainly not comfortable reading,reatunisa aN never 315 Saadawi rose to the positon of Director of Public Health, and frequently made herself unpopular with the authorities for her outspokenness, both in the course of her medical work and in her writings on women's questions, Stadawi now works in Beirut, responsible for the women's programme of the UN Economie Com mission for West Asia, Previously, she spent a year in Addis Ababa in charge ofthe UN women's programme in Africa. She expects to leave the UN soon. She says there is ‘too much bureaucracy and discrimination against women’, and adds, ‘they do not believe very much in creativity. They want people who just obey. ‘Although she has now worked in and has experience with a ‘wide range of Thitd Word countries, she very much identifies with Egypt, and with the Egyptian countryside in which she was brought up. She comes from the village of Kafr Tabla, in the Delta, some forty kilometres from Caico. She resins there thee of Four times year. Part of her fil til ives there, She says they put no pressure ‘on her to return; she finds they accept her different lifestyle and ‘even they are changing their customs and their value system? ‘She admits that thie sort of relat ‘woman and her family inthe countryside is not very common, ‘but ins happening, As educated women, we are aware that we should have organic links with our roots if we are going to make any changes. We are different fom the Egyptian educated woman who is Westernized, who usually ignores where she came from or hides that she came from a village or a poor family. She tries to imitate the west and to belong tothe upper class or the middleclass. But I think some women in my generation in Egypt now are even proud of| their origins? She fels this is even more the eate in her daughters? ‘generation and that ‘there isa sort of decolonization wave among ‘young people? Despite the persistence of many forms of oppression inthe rural areas, vividly described in The Hidden Face of Eve, Sadawi sees ‘many economic and social changes here since she went to live in the ‘ity, Where women are concerned, there is litle documentation or statistics on changes in their postion as workers. ‘Women working in agriculture as peanants do not receive wages, they work a piece of| ship between an educated 316 THE ESSENTIAL NAWAL EL SAADAW land forthe family They constitute the majority of women in Egypt and are employed. But, offically speaking, they are not considered part ofthe libour free. ‘They ae invisible inthe statics? Rural change ‘The changes which have occured in the countryside, affecting men and women, have come about, she thinks, not so much asa result of land reforms or legislation, but primarily because of land shortage. “Byenifland reform gave a small pee ofland tothe family the woman ‘works forthe husband and family in a patriarchal class system? "Maybe the family, instead of having nothing, has piece of land it works together. You can say the family benefited, but the role of| women did not change much. The same laws, the same customs Joontinue — they are not paid and ar still dependent on the family ‘and husband economically? (Changes among rural women were most marked among those ‘who came from landless families. Many people, men and women, are landless and are leaving the village, taking work in industry oF ‘educating themselves and their children so that they may have job opportunities, “That is what happened to-my family. My family was poor, and by education we acquired new status and became middle class, In the generation of my father only boys were educated — his sisters ‘and mother were kept inthe village because they still had a piece of land. Now my generation is educating both boys and girls to the same level — right up to university? This is now common practice in XKalirTabla, she says In upper Egypt, land searcty makes eduction ‘even mote of pressing priority, ‘Autides to family size have also changed. Unless the family has land and needs the labour ofa large number of children, the tendency is only to have three or four children, rather than eight to ten, Suadawi herself is one of nine. ‘Though education has certainly brought socal change, particu larly for women, Saadawi has litle reverence forthe value of the ‘education system itself, which she regard as very narrow and notPRMINISM IN REYPT. 917 necessarily 4 means of enlightenment. “This is because of the eur riculam itself. Whether education i ree or paid, it’s the same’ She points out that much ofthe presen system was inherited from the British and French, There is strong emphasis on memorization and ‘examinations o create civil servants — ‘not creative people who can rebel against the system. Education isa tool of oppression also.” ‘Nonetheless, education and urbanization have meant that many more women who live in towns and cities now have a university ‘education — 50 per cent of Egyptian university students are women. and far larger numbers go out to work, The eason is more often ‘economic necessity than free choice. “They need the jobs. Economi- cally speaking, many women cannot afford to stay at home. That's the big change. Those who stay at home are the upper clases only — some 5 percent of the population’ Going out to work does not necessarily change a woman's home life dramatically. Unless she has an extraordinarily enlightened Ihusband, often it means two jobs, housework and waged work, but Saadawi doce consider thatthe very fact of caring a Living gives the woman more independence, ‘At least she can escape and cdo something’ Saadawi refers in The Hidden Face of Bve to the Inelplessness of economically clependent women inthe feof divorce ‘or mistreatment, and she seems to think thatthe increase in working, ‘opportunites for women may do good deal to combat this. Working women under Sadat At the moment, on the employment front, the situation is increas ingly difficult. Saadawi confirms Judith Gran's point (in AERIP Report 58) that, Sada's economic policies have de-emphasized the importance of Egyptian technicians, professionals, and managers and have ‘encouraged instead the proliferation ofa whole spectrum of ner rmediaries and brokers between foreign capitalist, local capitalists, And the Egyptian government and public sector. The opportunites ‘pen ta both men and women of the petit hourgeasie have de- clined, while the economic pressures on them have intensified. S18 THR ESSENTIAL NAWAL RL SAADAWT Saadawi adds that these changes have affected working women very badly ‘because the public sector was diminished. his had provided a lot of work opportunities for women, and equal pay. Unemployment is increasing, and when you havea society like that with fewer jobs, who takes the jobs? ‘The men, the besdwinners? ‘She also points to the gross exploitation of child labour, with examples of gils of six and seven being employed in workshops and factories in appalling conditions, As Director of Public Health she would obviously be awate of cass like this. She maintains chat in present conditions laws prohibiting child labour are ‘no more than Ink on paper. If the spipm docs not maintain the laws on public health, who then ean?” (On social and personal relations particularly relating to marrage, divorce and funily law, she fel similarly chat legal changes alone ‘will not alr things much. ‘t's people's awareness an their political ‘power that really protects them, With regard to marrage la, there ‘was some marginal reform, but notin the essence — for instance, polygamy stil existe; a women herself cannot divorce. There is no equal treatment in marriage and divorce law between men and ‘women, But the Egyptian woman is having her equality by her power not by the law’, Among educated women, she maintains, ‘reality is in advance ofthe law? On the other hand, compelled to accept their husbands’ domination ‘She contrasts the situation in Egypt with that in Tunisia, where there isa very advanced law om marrage and divorce but the reality of the Tunisian women ie sill backward, She puts very strong emphasis on the need for women to organize themselves politically, « much stronger emphasis than was evident in The Hidden Face of Eve Women and the left ‘The difficulties are considerable — not least on the lefty where politically active men are not necessarily ‘equals. ‘Even those [men] who sty they are socialist or Marxist or of the lef, even if they are convinced mentally sila a psychologieal level they have this schizophrenia. That’ why alot of progressive ling to accept women asPEMINISM IN EevER 319 women cannot join lft parties or rade unions, They fel themselves a ponerless, coming at the back, and not having womens problems 8.4 priory I think thi everywhere, not justin Egypt, but alo think that the presence of women in large politi groups, trade unions and lft partis is very important. They have to work to organize themselves and be politely power inorder to enforce what they want. Without this I don’ think they can sueeed? ‘She admits that such a movement doesnot yet exis in Egypt “but at east women are aware ofthat. There are now small groups in rmany Arab countries convinced that they should have thir own or- taniraton, as women. These are nt soil oe charity organizations ‘They are politcal’ These groups are mostly among professional women like here: Although working-dass women somtimes get involved in trade unions, Ssadswi points out that they seldom have the time or energy for polieal work, wberess professional women tnually do have this privilege. Saadawi stresses the nee for women to ind an identity oft own —notonly separate fom men, but alo challenging the negative view of ther clare and society, which isa legaey of colonialism and imperialism. ‘Now, inthe West, everything relating to Muslim society is negative, Bat there are postive things. Studying history is important for this reason. Ie gives us some confidence in our root, cour civilization, and we build on this. The colonizers tended to alienate ws from our past and our history and co impose oly the negative part of our history. “We have discovered thatthe Arab woman many years go was very strong, We are resting our history — of people, not of kings and governors — the history of peopl’s participation in pobial power and revolaton? ‘Saadawi has had wide experience with women's situations in other parts ofthe Arab world. asked her how se fle Palestinian women were faring in Lebanon, where she snow working, She tld se tha while the fail unit among Palestinians, paticulsiyin the camps, has in some ways been strengthened a 3 protection, most ofthe women whom I mt, expecially the young women, loked on the PLO, onthe revolution, a ther family? More surprisingly she 320. THE ESSENTIAL NAWAL BL SAADAWE cited instances where ‘te fuer dest think about his daughters honour, this traditional concept. Fathers I met even approved of their daughters attending meetings until one inthe morning. Inside the ‘camps and ouside, people say we have to doi? caw is aware thatthe suecess of nationals struggle does not automatically ead to liberation for women. “The Algerian revolution tried to get id ofthe French. They needed women at that time, Aer they succeeded, they returned tothe same patriarchal class system of eppresing women, Ifthe Algerian women had been organized and powerful asa group nobody could have taken ther rights from them. ‘Nasser came in Egypt and said we will ave socialism. Then he did and the whole thing collapsed. Who guarantees the rights of people — men, women, workers, poor people? I's those people, not the government, not the leaders. This is why am convinced that ‘women should be politically powerful inside a revolution. Otherwise they may be used by the revolution as tools, as cheap labour, cheap fighters — to die first and be liberated lst” ‘On the evolution in Tran, she was cautiously optimistic, Of the leadership she said, T cant say is very reactionary. Regarding political and economic aspects, itis more or less progressive. If we come to women, [think they are having problems’ She considers the law on the wearing ofthe chador in government offices as “negative She points, however, tothe imbalance in the coverage of this and related questions in the Wester media. “There ae many powers working in he Middle East to safeguad oil and they are using Islam to veil not only women but men too. I's a matter of who benefits from the vel, who benefits from the most negative parts of Islam. ‘Who is blowing up the most reactionary parts of Islam, even in the Iranian revolution? It's dhe mass media in the West? In Iran, however, she considers thatthe progressive forces which ‘do exist will win on the women's question. ‘think thi na fant ciam which willbe conquered? 2 First published a Feminism in Baype: A Conversation with Nawal Stadawi, an interview with Sarah Grahan-Brown, MERIP Repert 5 March-April 98