NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan in Washington.

Today is part two of our look at Islam. Yesterday we talked about how Islam influenced the development of politics, economics and science in the Muslim world, and we also posed a broader question: If, as President Bush and other leaders say repeatedly, this war is not against Islam, is it about Islam to some degree? Today we talk with Muslim leaders in America about the role if Islam in American society and the role of American Muslims in the Islamic world. Islam is one of the fastest-growing religions in this country. Many Muslims here urgently tried to separate themselves from the actions of the Muslim extremists, especially after September the 11th. Most Muslims say that the brand of Islam espoused by the extremists does not define their understanding of Islam or what Islam is really about. Others, though, question their sincerity. Some American Muslims who now describe themselves as moderates have issued inflammatory statements in the past, denounced the United States, associated with terrorists and raised funds for extremist organizations. Islam is one of the fastest-growing religions, as we mentioned. Today, we're going to talk with a few American Muslim leaders to hear about how they see their religion, whether they see it as part of the American mainstream and ask what's changed since September the 11th. And we invite you to join the conversation. Our number here in Washington is (800) 989-8255. That's (800) 989-TALK. Our e-mail address is totn@npr.org. We'd particularly like to hear from American Muslims about your perceptions of your fellow Americans, and we'd like to know whether September the 11th changed your views in any way. How do you feel you're being treated by your other fellow Americans? Have you felt any discrimination since the terrorist attacks, and what do you think your responsibilities are to explain America to other Muslims around the world? And for those of you who are not Muslim, do you feel that American Muslims have acted responsibly since September the 11th? Have you seen discrimination in your community? Do you think Muslims are part of the American mainstream or are they somehow different? Give us a call. Again, the number, (800) 989-TALK. That's (800) 989-8255. Dr. Maher Hatout joins us now. He is the leader of the Islamic Center of Southern California, which is one of the oldest centers for Islam in America, and reaches out to 10,000 families. He joins us from the studios of member station KPCC in Pasadena, California. And welcome. Dr. MAHER HATOUT (Islamic Center of Southern California): Thank you. CONAN: Can you tell us, where were you on September the 11th, and how did you first react?

Dr. HATOUT: I was at Washington, DC, to have a meeting with President Bush, and so we arrived there at September 10 at night. In the morning, we were horrified by the news, and needless to say that the meeting was postponed. We have been kept in Washington because the airports were closed for about five or six days, during which we were quite active in receiving the reaction of different Islamic organizations in the nation. CONAN: Now what were those reactions? I assume that there was great horror. Dr. HATOUT: Of course, and there was great shock, and the reassuring thing is unsolicited condemnation, almost unanimously, came from everybody, that people condemned the terrorist acts. At that time, it wasn't quite clear who committed it. Of course we--everybody was hoping that, please God, we hope it is not one who will invoke the name of Islam in that. And as the day developed, we discovered the horrors and the suffering of the nation, and it kind of jolted everybody, Muslims and nonMuslims alike, into a different level of maturity. CONAN: Now how has that manifested itself? Has your message changed since September the 11th? Dr. HATOUT: Our message--I'm talking about myself and the organizations I represent-did not change. We felt the urge to make it probably more loud, more intense, but it did not change. We had on record consistent condemnation of terrorism, as a matter of fact consistent condemnation of the Taliban regime in particular because we felt that it is giving very bad name to Islam. So we did not change course. I'm talking about the organizations I represent. But we stayed at course, but more intensely. On the same day, we had press conference. We issued statements, we went to the Red Cross to donate blood and we tried from then on to intensify our activities to explain ourselves and our religion. CONAN: Now I understand that part of your effort, your work is to try to design or create, I guess, a specific American Muslim identity. Dr. HATOUT: That's right. CONAN: And what do you mean by that? Dr. HATOUT: What we meant by that--this evolved about 20 years ago, when we said we don't want to be in America as an appendage to the Middle East or to the Far East. We'd like to be here as full-fledged American citizens, part of the American pluralism, that part that happened to be Muslim and is guided by the values of Islam. And so we were very keen to say that American Muslim identity is not attached organically to any other country or any other Muslim organization. This is home, because home is not where my grandfather is buried but where my grandson is being brought up, and we deliberately chose America to be home, to join those who have been born in America as Muslims, and we felt that this is an identity of its own. Similar to an Egyptian Muslim identity or a

Pakistani Muslim identity, there is an American Muslim identity. We defended that concept very, very enthusiastically, and I think it took roots. CONAN: Now a lot of mosques in this country were founded with money sent from overseas, in particular, as I understand it, from Saudi Arabia. Does that mean that those mosques are beholden to a particular vision of Islam, in particular the Saudi Arabian version of Wahhabism? Dr. HATOUT: I can't speak for them, but I personally, we took a stand as part of our bylaws not to accept any money from any government, because we believe that once you become on the receiving end of money, whether intentionally or non-intentionally, it will have an impact. As they say, money talks, and money talks very loudly. CONAN: He who pays the piper, yes. Dr. HATOUT: And we decided long time ago not to accept this money, and I think the history is showing us that this was the right decision, difficult but right, and I believe that the American Muslim community should be able to generate its own income. I believe that the Muslim community in America is wealthier and more well-to-do than any other Muslim community in the world, so I see no reason whatsoever to accept money from overseas. CONAN: What is the perception of American Muslims from overseas? Do Muslims in Indonesia or Bangladesh or Pakistan, do they understand that Muslims in the United States are allowed to practice their religion freely? Dr. HATOUT: I think they do, otherwise we wouldn't have been here. There is a great deal of confusion, of course. For example, after September 11, there were reports in the Arab media, which I have access to, that Muslims are in a miserable condition in America and they are being attacked, etc., which was not true, and we clarified that. I personally wrote a couple of articles and, as a matter of fact, a chapter in a book that's still to be published saying that this is not the case, and we have to understand the world around us more than we do. September 11 brought a very overflowing compassion and sharing of the American public. The fellow Americans of different religions came to the support of the Muslim community, and this speaks very highly for the fabric of this nation. CONAN: Is it part of this American Muslim identity that you're talking about to explain to the rest of the Islamic world that Muslims were killed in the attack on the World Trade Center, that Muslim women were killed in the attack on the World Trade Center? Dr. HATOUT: To be honest with you, this was not our emphasis, although it is a valid point, that the attack on America is an attack on all of us, Muslims and non-Muslims. As a matter of fact, it is an attack against Islam, if the name of Islam is used. And we were so busy with the arena here, between the reception of the amount of questions and curiosity that was raised here in the United States, and also dealing with the very few hate crimes.

And I always say that there is always a small percentage of the ignorant, fanatic and wicked opportunist who will, at a time like that, try to settle accounts with Muslims, and we were trying to deal with that as much as we can. We were trying to raise the banner of civil liberties of all citizens, so we were too busy to address ourselves to the overseas arena, although it is a very valid point. CONAN: Let's go to the phones now. Our telephone number is (800) 989-8255. That's (800) 989-TALK. Our first caller is Brent, who joins us on the line from Oklahoma City. BRENT (Caller): Hi. CONAN: Hi. BRENT: Thank you very much for taking my call. CONAN: Sure. What's your question? BRENT: Hello? CONAN: Yeah. BRENT: I'm sorry. I work with several international students, and I have a question. It seems like, to a T, every one of the Muslims are against the Jewish people. The Jewish people have always been strong allies, and I love them, personally, and I think most people in the nation do. And I think this turns us against Muslims, because to a T, they're all against Israel and, you know, that's wrong. Israel's the only democracy in the country. All the Muslim countries are dictatorships, sending their children out to fight wars, brainwashing them, and here Israel is a good, strong democracy, and of course they hate them. But I think that Muslims are fundamentally different, that really they don't fit into the American culture and that they never will, and that they cause problems. That's my opinion, and it's just my opinion, but it's how I see it, that they are just trouble, and here the Jewish people come over here, they're sorry, they do things. I've had plenty of them come to me, `Oh, I'm so sorry about this.' You know what the Muslims say? `Well, America needs to quit backing Israel.' I think we need to back Israel more and be over there supporting them right in the streets. CONAN: Well, let's give Dr. Hatout a chance to reply. Dr. HATOUT: Of course, the brother is entitled to his opinion. We American Muslims express our loyalty to America, not to Israel, and we don't want to use our relationship or our feelings toward Israel to validate or disvalidate us as good patriotic Americans who are willing to contribute. And this will be a very dangerous trend, to accept a people or reject a people based on their feeling towards a foreign country.

Whether your opinion is that it is the greatest democracy, we don't think so. We think that there is a great deal of apartheid practices in Israel, and we are entitled to our opinion also. As long as we suppress this opinion within the frames of our Constitution and using democratic means to argue our cases, I think we are entitled to do that. But I will not use loyalty to Israel as equivalent to loyalty to the United States. I think us and so many other Americans from different--including some Jewish Americans, believe that the blind support of Israel is wrong and it should be more guided than that. BRENT: Can I say one more thing? CONAN: If you keep it short, please. BRENT: I'm sorry. That's always the same line. It's always the exact same line, and it's against--if you watch, you watch, they always--they won't support Israel--I want to hear you say--if you're a religious man, I want to hear you say that Jewish people have a right to a state there and to be free from terrorism, which the terrorists over there are the Muslims, and Israel has a right to be free of terrorism and to fight it, and that you love the Jewish people, because you're supposed to be a religious man, and that you support their right to exist. Let's hear that. CONAN: Brent, you've asked--I'm going to give Dr. Hatout a chance to answer that question, but only after a short break, because we're running out of time in this segment. Brent, thanks very much for your call. And we're going to be continuing to talk about American Muslims in this, our second part of our two-day discussion on Islam, when we return, we'll also be joined by an imam from a mosque in Virginia whose views have changed a bit since September the 11th, and we'll continue taking your calls at (800) 989-TALK. Or send us an e-mail, totn@npr.org. It's TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC CONAN: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. Today we're talking with American Muslim leaders about how they see their role as Muslims in a Western nation. And what do you want to know about your Muslim neighbors? If you have a question, give us a call, (800) 989-TALK. Our e-mail address is totn@npr.org. Our guest this hour is Dr. Maher Hatout, leader of the Islamic Center of Southern California, one of the oldest centers for Islam in America. He's also senior adviser to the Muslim Public Affairs Council and chairman of the American Muslim Political Coordination Council.

Also joining us here in Studio 3A is Imam Anwar Al-Awlaki, leader of the Dar Al-Hijra mosque in Falls Church, Virginia, which is one of the largest mosques on the East Coast. He's with us here in Studio 3A. Welcome to you. But first, I did want to give Dr. Hatout a chance to answer Brent's question. Dr. HATOUT: Yeah. The gentleman raised three points. Number one, he said this the line that you always hear. That doesn't make it wrong. It means that we are consistent. And about loving the Jewish people, I have no problem with the Jewish people. We have problems with some of the practices of the Zionist state of Israel, but the Jewish people and Judaism, we never, never, ever talked inevitably about those, and we will not. The third point, about the right of Israel to exist free of terrorism, of course I say that should be, but also the right of Palestinians to have a state free of terrorism and intimidation as well. CONAN: OK. All right. Now, Imam Al-Awlaki, what did you and your mosque experience after the attacks on September the 11th? Imam ANWAR AL-AWLAKI: Immediately after the attacks, the mosque was closed for a few days, until we were able to beef up security presence, because we were hearing about some backlash that was going on around the country. However, the police volunteered, and they came in on the same day, on Tuesday, and they did offer some security until we were able to hire a private security company that would help us. And then we opened on Friday. Although I need to say that really there was nothing dramatic that happened to our center. CONAN: Now do you think that your message, your rhetoric has changed over the past couple of months? Imam AL-AWLAKI: I don't think it has changed, but I can say that I think with most Muslim religious leaders--and I think around the nation, there's a feeling that we need to be more careful in how things are presented, more careful in the words that are used. In the past, there has been--Muslims have been raising concerns regarding the US foreign policy. I think now that not only should we be talking about these legitimate issues, but also how they should be acted upon. CONAN: Let's go back to the phones. Our telephone number is (800) 989-8255, (800) 989-TALK, and joining us now is Jenny, who's with us from Orangeburg, in South Carolina. JENNY (Caller): Hi. Good afternoon. CONAN: Good afternoon. JENNY: Thanks for taking my call. CONAN: Sure.

JENNY: I'm a former Christian. I'm a convert to Islam American, and just a comment on personal experiences. I'm living in South Carolina. We, as a small community, have not experienced any negative backlash. We have heard the reports around the country, but we've really received nothing but kindness from our neighbors here and fellow citizens. Regarding the responsibility of the Muslim community, I personally believe that Muslims have to bear this burden of bringing the information to the American public in terms of educating them about Islam. I can see the reasons why, perhaps, they have not done it till now. Many Muslims here are recent immigrants, and they've come here to a new culture. Many times they're in mosques with people from other nationalities and are adjusting to that, and maybe are not accustomed to, you know, educating people outside their realm about their faith, but I think Americans would respond very well to that, and they do have a responsibility to do that. CONAN: Jenny, could I ask, do you wear the Hejab, the garb that many Muslim women wear? JENNY: I actually do, starting this year. I do. I just started to wear it, and it was maybe six months before all of this happened. And I had some concerns, as a matter of fact, bringing my children to school, and I got a few quick looks for a day or two, but everyone went about their business after that, and really there was--I didn't receive one single negative comment from anyone. CONAN: Were you--I guess you must have felt some--you mentioned you were a little concerned about that. JENNY: I was. I was. And, you know, perhaps I'm a little more confident. Being an American, I feel perhaps I can hold my own. I might know how to respond to people better than something from the outside, but I still was concerned. Some of these incidences that we heard about were, you know, clearly unprovoked and very sudden, and I was a little worried. I have small children and was more concerned about them than me. But the reality was that there was nothing negative has happened and, in fact, people have come curious, wanting to know about Islam, and were finding that the churches are opening their doors and the schools are asking for us to come speak, and I'm embracing that idea. CONAN: I can hear a bunch of small children in the background of your phone. JENNY: I'm at the playground to pick up my children. I'm on my cell phone. CONAN: OK. Well, thanks very much for your call, Jenny. JENNY: OK. Thank you. CONAN: And good luck to you.

JENNY: Uh-huh. Thank you. Bye-bye. CONAN: Bye-bye. Now let me ask a question that came in by e-mail. This is from a listener named Paul. `Does the separation of church and state go against the teachings of the Koran? Because I believe the perception that it does lessens the amount of common ground available.' Imam Al-Awlaki? Imam AL-AWLAKI: Now if what is meant by the question is `Does Islam believe in a theology?' well, the answer is no. However, Islam does have some teachings regarding how the state should run. Islam, we say, is a way of life. It has some teachings in regards to the economical life, the political life, the social life and the spiritual life. CONAN: OK. Let's go back to the phones, and joining is now is Said(ph), who's on the line with us from Rochester, Minnesota. SAID (Caller): Michigan, actually. CONAN: Michigan--MI, I took a guess. SAID: No problem. Good afternoon. CONAN: Thank you. SAID: My comment is this. I am a Muslim in America, and one of the things that I've been noticing, unfortunately, is that there seems to be a trend upon many people to abrogate a Muslim's right to freely question or critically analyze government policy as though Muslims in this country must maintain a monolithic demonstration of faith in the government, that any government policy that's being implemented vis-a-vis the current crisis in order to prove loyalty. And not only is this completely antithetical to the spirit of Islam, where there is a word called `shura(ph),' that there should be consultation and that there should be some kind of widespread interpretation or analysis of things, but it really seems to be typecasting Muslims into a corner ideologically, again, in order to prove allegiance somehow, and I'd like to see what your guests have to say about that, please. CONAN: Dr. Hatout? Dr. HATOUT: Yeah. The point is extremely valid, and I think it will--it is up to us Muslims whether we will be intimidated into that or not. I think we are Americans because--particularly those who migrated here, we are Americans because this is the land of freedom. We came here to enjoy certain rights of freedom of speech that were not available, probably, in some of the countries where we came from. And it is my constitutional right, as well as my Islamic duty, to speak out my mind freely. And as long as we are doing that in a constructive way and using the Koranic teaching, wisdom and nice preaching, we should be critical about things that we don't like. Of course I agree with the brother who called with--Said, that people would like to point finger unless you support everything that's done, `Well, let us question and examine your patriotism or your

loyalty.' We should not accept that. All Americans have the right to have different opinions and to express them freely, and so should be Muslims. Now Muslims are looked at as `Show me then that you are patriotic. I don't see a flag on your car. I don't see you supporting the bombing of Afghanistan. I don't see you do--I don't even see you supporting the state of Israel. So you are not patriotic.' This is really very silly, and we should not accept it. We should rejoice in being Americans so we can be free, and we can take issues by great responsibility. We should not be sloganistic or rhetorical or emotional. We should be analytical and constructive, and it is part of our duty to the country to express our opinions. CONAN: Is there a reciprocal responsibility, though, if there are criminals within your community to help root them out, people who have committed crimes? Dr. HATOUT: Absolutely. Absolutely. This is also an Islamic duty, as well as an American duty. And we issued a statement together with the FBI calling on all citizens and on all Muslims that if you notice any criminal activity or potential criminal activity, never hesitate in exposing that and preventing any crime. And let me say, God forbid, if anything else happens with the magnitude of what happened or even with a small magnitude, the first people to be hurt are us, the name of our religion and even our physical beings will be hurt. So we have every reason to protect the country, to protect our community, to protect the name of our religion by preventing any potential criminal activity. SAID: If I may intercede? CONAN: Please. SAID: Yes. Unfortunately, Mr. Conan, I find that your question to Dr. Hatout was a bit disappointing because it presumes that Muslims would be different from any other group in the country, that we would, for some reason, want to harbor terrorists and not cooperate fully with the requisite authorities. And it's a question that doesn't really seem to be posed to, for example, people of Italian descent, that they would harbor people from the Mafia or any other criminal element. One of the issues that it also seems to presume is that Muslims tend to congregate or associate with terrorists, and I, for one, can say that I've never met any of these people. CONAN: Well, if I could--the program is really not about me, but again, growing up Irish, there was certainly a lot of discussion and a lot of concern in the community in which I grew up about people who were running guns to that part of the world. And this was a vital concern within that section of the Roman Catholic community. SAID: I see. Dr. HATOUT: Yeah, but, you know, you have the advantage that no Irish or no one claimed that because he's an Irish Catholic or Protestant did a nasty thing in the United

States. We are in a more difficult predicament because people invoked the name of the religion and killed innocent people in America. Some of them are Muslim, some of them are Christians, some of them are Jews. So the predicament here is bigger, and the sensitivity is more needed in our situation now. Nonetheless, of course, I support what Said said, that this is why our statement with the FBI was not calling only on Muslims, on all citizens. We have to protect America, because this is the best place to be. We disagree on certain things. It is not paradise on Earth. It is not a panacea, but it is the best place for people to be and to practice their religions and to express their opinions. It needs to be protected, and the citizens of America are the ones to protect it, Muslims or non-Muslims. CONAN: Said, thanks very much for your call. SAID: Thank you so much. CONAN: OK. Let's go on to Hasham(ph), who's on the line with us from Oklahoma City. HASHAM (Caller): Yes. Hi. First of all, I'd just like to say that I'm calling from Oklahoma City, like the first caller, and all of us aren't as closed-minded as he was. But my comment is I'm a Muslim that's grown up here all my life, and I think that, you know, just the media and society acts like every Muslim is so involved with everything that's going on overseas. And I think that's just a, you know, ridiculous thought because you take, you know, your normal Irish, you know, American citizen, they're not involved with what's going on in the IRA, you know, on a daily basis. You know, most Muslims are going to baseball games, going, you know, to movies, things like that. Before the 11th and, you know, when everything gets back to normal, we'll be doing just normal, everyday things. We're not going to be checking, you know, the Muslim papers every day to see what's going on in Israel; what--you know, if we can fund, you know, fanatics, things like that. It's just--I think that we've been typecast as like so involved overseas when we're just going through normal, everyday life. CONAN: OK. Thanks very much for your call. HASHAM: OK. Thanks. CONAN: You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. And, Imam Al-Awlaki, I wanted to follow up with you. And that is one of the questions that we asked at the beginning of this broadcast. President Bush says this is not a war against Islam. Does religion play an element in this conflict, do you think? Imam AL-AWLAKI: I think that to a certain extent for practical reasons there is an element of feeling among the Muslims that they are targeted, or at least they are the ones

who are paying the highest price for what's going on. Number one, there has been a rise in negative reporting on Islam in the media since the events happened. There have been 1,100 Muslims detained in the US. There's a bombing going on over a Muslim country, Afghanistan. So there are some reasons that make the Muslims feel that, well, it is true that the statement was made that this is not a war against Islam, but for all practical reasons, it is the Muslims who are being hurt. CONAN: Beyond those who, obviously, were hurt on September the 11th. Imam AL-AWLAKI: Yes. CONAN: And I know you did not mean to exclude them. Imam AL-AWLAKI: Absolutely. CONAN: And how do we address that? How should you address that to your community? And how, if there's a distinction, should you address that to the wider community? Imam AL-AWLAKI: Well, let me start first by the wider community. I would say that the media plays a very, very important role in this conflict. I think if the administration is trying to show and express as best it can that this is not a war against Islam, I think that around the country there's a responsibility to make that distinction very clear and to prevent and stop any negative reporting that is happening against Islam. With the community itself, I would say that it is the responsibility--really it's the responsibility of the community to do the education. The American Muslim community, I think, has not done a good job in the past in educating the community at large about Islam. And I think that the September 11th tragedy is really compelling us to play a more important role in that direction. CONAN: Islam--and correct me if I'm wrong--it seems, tried to keep a low profile, and now there seems to be no choice but to either enter the American mainstream or be marginalized. Imam AL-AWLAKI: Absolutely. And the reason is about, I would say, half of the American Muslim community is recent immigration. And it takes a while for immigrants to be rooted in the country and to establish themselves and integrate themselves into the rest of the society. That's one reason. So there was an element of seclusion going on. But I think that now everybody realizes that we can't afford to be hiding ourselves. We have to be out in the public fulfilling our roles. CONAN: Imam Al-Awlaki, thank you very much for joining us. Imam AL-AWLAKI: You're welcome.

CONAN: Imam Anwar Al-Awlaki, leader of the Dar Al-Hijra--I'll pronounce that correct one time--mosque in Falls Church, Virginia. You're listening to part two of our two-day discussion on Islam. We're speaking with American Muslim leaders about the role of Islam in American society, and the role of American Muslims in the Islamic world. When we return, we'll be speaking with an imam in Cleveland who says his views have changed. What do you want to know about your Muslim neighbors? Or if you're a Muslim, what do you want to tell your neighbors about Islam? More coming up after a short break. I'm Neal Conan. This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. ANNOUNCEMENTS CONAN: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. Tomorrow, join Ira Flatow on the next "Science Friday" as the talk turns to the demise of electric cars in the Northeast, the recent global warming treaty and other environmental news. Today, part two of our discussion on Islam. We're speaking with American Muslim leaders about the role of Islam in American society and the role of American Muslims in the Islamic world. Our guest this hour is Dr. Maher Hatout, leader of the Islamic Center of Southern California, one of the oldest and largest centers for Islam in America. If you have a question, give us a call: (800) 989-TALK; (800) 989-8255. Our e-mail address is totn@npr.org. And joining us now is Imam Fawaz Damra. He is the imam of the Islamic Center of Cleveland, which is considered northeast Ohio's largest mosque. He does have a past which involves association with some Islamic extremists and has made some statements for which he has since apologized and which he now regrets. Since he made those statements, he says he's experienced a turnaround in his beliefs. And, welcome, Imam. Imam FAWAZ DAMRA (Islamic Center of Cleveland): Thank you so much, Neal, for having me on the show. CONAN: You're welcome. Can you explain to us--first of all, as I understand it--why don't you explain to us the incident that happened 10 years ago and why it is you have felt the necessity to apologize? Imam DAMRA: Well, first of all, as a new arrival, like all immigrants coming to this country, I was basically carrying my cultural baggage with me. Coming from West Bank, occupied territory, I expressed myself in an unpleasant way. I was angry. I was frustrated. And I made a statement that is racial slur that does not represent my faith, nor the culture

I came from, but unfortunately those were a statement of a man who was angry, frustrated and trying to come to a country where freedom of speech is available. And since then, I regret saying what I said, and I apologize about those. CONAN: Mm-hmm. You were a member of a mosque before you went to Cleveland, a member of a mosque in Brooklyn where some of the people involved in the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center were members of that mosque. Is that accurate? Imam DAMRA: Well, that's true. I was the imam at Al-Farooq mosque, which was a place for a lot of activities, people coming from overseas and still attached to their country. And I did help in establishing an office for the refugees in Afghanistan which was at that time occupied by the Soviet Union. And that was also the tendency and the action of the US government. Unfortunately, some of those who were involved in these activities were not honest and they have used my reputation as imam to collect money, and later on I denounced them and they went against and started mobilizing the community around me and I was ousted and forced out from the same group that I had helped earlier. And I left in June 1990, and came to Cleveland. After three years, one of those people whom I did not agree with, nor I did agree with the programs they were doing with the money, turn out to be an indicted of the World Trade Center bombing. CONAN: Mm-hmm. Now I wanted to ask you where it was, do you think, that you learned the attitudes that led to the despicable statements that you made about Jews? And where did you unlearn them? Imam DAMRA: Well, like I said, this type of rhetoric is slowing in the Middle East by both parties, the Israelis and the Palestinians, since I came from that part of the world. And that was in the mind of all people, not only the Palestinians, but also the Israelis, who are using the same rhetoric to describe the Palestinians. One does not need to be a genius to find those rhetoric on both sides. CONAN: Mm-hmm. And where did you begin to change your attitude? Imam DAMRA: Well, I went through a transformation in my life when I moved to Cleveland. I found a different community, a community of second-generation Muslims who want to integrate in the society, who wants to be proud of being American while preserving their identity as a Muslim. And I was experiencing a conflicted heart and soul where I decided to pursue my education. And that's the reason why I came to this country, to pursue my education. So I went to Hartford Seminary in Connecticut, where I started studying about other faiths and I realized the humanity of different faiths and became more sensitized about human beings as a general. And I basically transformed my life intellectually, religiously and politically. And another turning point in my life, when I gave the invocation in the state of Ohio Senate where I felt I am part of this country. And later on, in 1995, I became a naturalized citizen of this country, and since then I've been coming--not only calling for interfaith understanding, but I became champion in this. In my town, I've invited Jewish rabbis and other religious leaders, you

know, Christian community and other even faith community leaders to join with me. And I have asked my community as well to reach out to people of different faiths. CONAN: Mm-hmm. Let me bring Dr. Hatout into this discussion. And, Dr. Hatout, I wanted to ask you also about the case of an Egyptian shahuz(ph) at a mosque in New York. And I'm going to mispronounce his name, I'm sure. Mohamad al-Gamei(ph). Dr. HATOUT: ...(Unintelligible). CONAN: Yeah. And this was a man who also made, you know, some very moderatesounding statements and then after the events of September the 11th issued a bizarre statement that, you know, apparently Jewish or Zionist flight controllers steered those aircraft into the World Trade Center and then left the country and returned to Egypt. There is a... Dr. HATOUT: Oh, is that what his statement was? CONAN: This is a man named Mohamad al-Gamei, G-A-M-E-I. Dr. HATOUT: Gamei. CONAN: Gamei. I'm sure I'm mispronouncing it and I apologize for that. Dr. HATOUT: No, it is a difficult name. CONAN: But there are some people who wonder sometimes whether some people in the Islamic community speak to different audiences with different voices. Dr. HATOUT: Well, definitely there is a possibility that there would be a percentage of that. In any community, you'll find people who are confused enough and who are scared enough not to speak their mind freely and straightforward. And this would be very unfortunate, particularly from a person who claims a religion, because the first teaching of religion, very emphasized in Islam, is there is nothing to fear and you have to be loyal to God and to speak your conscience without being intimidated. If there is a person who did that, he's absolutely doing a complexity of mistakes. The wrong way of thinking, the conspiracy mind and conspiracy theorists, this number one. Number two, the tendency to blame always people that you don't agree with on every evil in the world, which is wrong. Number three, to speak double mouth. I think this--I don't know the person, but hypothetically I accept that there is a person of that name who did these things. And I completely disapprove and condemn this kind of behavior. CONAN: OK. Let's get our listeners back in on the conversation. And let's go to Dina, who's on the line from Cleveland.

DINA (Caller): Hi. CONAN: Hi. DINA: I guess I just have a lot of different comments. I really was prompted to call after the first Oklahoma City man. CONAN: Mm-hmm. DINA: I'm Palestinian, Muslim, born and raised in America, terrified after September 11th, just along with everybody else. One of the things is I think people who don't know enough about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are very quick to make judgments. And what disheartened me most is he stated that he worked with international students. And I hope he's still listening. If you are a teacher or if you're working with international students, the number one thing is to learn about the culture, the history, the religion, the background; in order for you to be able to educate them, let them educate you. And, you know, what he might not know is that Palestinians and Israelis have been fighting for over 50 years, and as Imam Damra said, he was angry. There are angry people. Sometimes angry people do not act the right way. And Palestinians want peace, but it's been so long that it's been very difficult for us to come to that point. As well as, Palestinians are not just Muslims. There are Muslims and Christians in that region of the area. So to target just one religion and one race and one culture is very disheartening to me. And every day I become more and more pessimistic that anything is going to be resolved in the Middle East. I have grandparents there. I have relatives there. And as much as I've lived the American life, I've lived the Arab Muslim life. CONAN: Well, I'll let Imam Damra respond to that. But--go ahead please. Imam DAMRA: Well, like I said, that does not give me the right to defend on those statements. I was wrong by describing the Jewish people in the way I described them. But I regret and I apologize publicly and in private to the Jewish community in the Cleveland area. They know the type of work I have done here, and every citizen of Cleveland area know what types of work I have been doing. As a matter of fact, I myself have been coming in the last month or so--our mosque has been attacked. And after the attack, you know, I had declared in front of the community that we have forgiven this man and we asked the police if we can go and visit him to show our compassion and mercy, because we know what it means to be ignorant and coming out of frustration. And, therefore, I expected the community in Cleveland, which most of them, the religious leaders have supported what I have been going through, and ask God to guide us all as we're trying to learn about each other's faith, about each other's struggle, about each other's past. CONAN: OK, Dina, thanks very much for your call. DINA: Thank you.

CONAN: OK. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. Jerry's on the line from Baltimore, Maryland. JERRY (Caller): Yes. I think all of us--I'm a fifth-generation American--have an obligation to support anyone who is a guest in this country or a citizen to speak freely. But I have a serious concern. One of your panelists, Neal, had said that he and his organization do not accept money from abroad from certain, I gather he considered them proscribed organizations. CONAN: No, he said from foreign governments. JERRY: From foreign governments? CONAN: Yes. JERRY: There is a good deal of giving of Muslims in America to Hezbollah, to Hamas and other organizations that support madrases that teach hate and that, frankly, are engaging in policies of terrorism and that are inimical to the interests of the United States. And I've not heard clear statements from American leaders of the Muslim faith on this issue, and I would like to hear his. CONAN: OK. I think, Dr. Hatout, that was you. But we're running out of time, and I would like to bring in Imam Damra on this as well. Imam DAMRA: Well... Dr. HATOUT: Sorry. OK. Imam DAMRA: Go ahead. CONAN: Dr. Hatout first. Dr. HATOUT: Oh, OK. It's interesting that everyone now wants to hear specific things from us. But anyway, regardless, let me tell you, this is an issue for the FBI to investigate. If there is any American Muslim or organization or mosque or group that are spending money to support terrorism in any area of the world, they should be brought to the authority of the law... CONAN: OK. Dr. HATOUT: ...without any hesitation. CONAN: Imam Damra, you've described the people who have conducted the attacks of September the 11th as `despicable terrorists' in an article published in The Cleveland

Plain Dealer yesterday. Are Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah and Hamas--are they despicable terrorists, too? Imam DAMRA: As American Muslims, whatever our country include as a terrorist organization, we go with that. As a matter of fact, I have made that clear in all my statements, in all my teachings at the mosque, it is the beauty of all of us as American Muslims to continue condemning all type of terrorists. Unfortunately, at this time, what we hear in the media is all about these organizations. But there are other organizations of different faiths, of different region that has not been included, and that is really a shame, because just to finger-point on some organization from one region and not to focus on other region, that is also unfair. And I hope that the United States also will look at other organizations and other states that is also continuing on this path of terrorism. CONAN: Imam Damra, I wanted to thank you very much for joining us today. I know it couldn't have been easy. And thanks very much for speaking with us. Imam DAMRA: Thank you. CONAN: That is Imam Fawaz Damra, leader of northeast Ohio's largest mosque, the Islamic Center of Cleveland. He joined us by phone from Cleveland, Ohio. Also with us this hour, Dr. Maher Hatout. Thank you so much for speaking with us. Dr. HATOUT: You are very welcome. A pleasure. CONAN: He is the leader of the Islamic Center of Southern California, one of the oldest and largest centers for Islam in America. He joined us from member station KPPC, in Pasadena, California. Earlier we also spoke with Imam Anwar Al-Awlaki, the leader of Dar Al-Hijra mosque in Falls Church, Virginia.