interview: Speaking at Point Zero: "oob" Talks with Nawal El-Saadawi

Author(s): Angela Johnson and Nawal El-Saadawi

Source: Off Our Backs , march 1992, Vol. 22, No. 3, 1992: When will it end? (march
1992), pp. 1, 6-7
Published by: off our backs, inc.

Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/20833964

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off our backs
volume xxii
number 3
march 1992 Speaking at Point Zero:
oob Talks with Nawal El-Saadawi
contents At the recent National Organization for
Women (NOW) 25th Anniversary
They don't like our politics, the minister
of social affairs sent us a letter in No
She gave a very good presentation about
her life as a Palestinian woman, what's
Conference, oob collective member vember 1991, telling us "you should not happening, the curfew, the deportation
news Angela Johnson interviewed Egyptian
writer and activist Nawal El-Saadawi.
discuss politics or religion, according to
the law of association in Egypt." So we
of Palestinians, etc., etc.

sports. 8 organized a committee to change the it's politics/it's power

health ". 9 angela: What did you think of the con law of association, because we said it's So in a way I think now the National
ference? a very undemocratic law, and Egypt is Organization of Women here is really

interviews nawal: I think it's a good conference.

Nawal El-Saadawi .... 1
African Women Publishers 2
Shireen Huq, Bangladeshi
This global conception of feminism and
women's liberation that NOW as one of
the very big women's organizations
here, is now starting to think that our
enemy is global,and that we should
democratic. They say it's democratic,
so how can you have such a law? The
grassroot members of associations can
not discuss politics or religion, so what
do they speak about? So anyway, this
was really ridiculous. So NOW or
ganized a demonstration here last Oc
changing towards global feminism; to
wards also being politicized, not to sep
arate between politics and women. Be
cause there is no separation between
women and politics. I remember in
Copenhagen and in Nairobi [UN De
cade on Women conferences, 1980 and

commentary have a global struggle, and work to

gether.
I told them that in the plenary
Lesbian Psychology in
Britain: Back Into the session today. I said I came for two
Closet? . 16 reasons: because NOW organized a
demonstration in front of the Egyptian
We Will Not Endure This
embassy to protest against the closing
Progrom in Silence ... 18
of our association, the Arab Women's
Solidarity Association (AWSA). You
reviews
wrote about our group sometime in your
magazine. [1987.] This is a pan-Arab
Honor and Shame: Women international association, and we have
?0 Modern Iraq. 19 status with the United Nations. We also
Feminist Review on have an Egyptian branch.
Eastern Europe . 20 The minister of social affairs in
The Last Seven Months of the Egyptian government issued a
Anne Frank . 22 decree last June to close the Egyptian
Gender Shock . 23 association, not the international group.
We think this is political because we
were very much against the government.
tober in front of the Egyptian embassy,
protesting. So this is international soli
darity. It's a concrete example; it's not
talking, it's acting. So that's why I
came. Also because of the title of the
conference itself: Global. A Global
Conception of Feminism. We need
that, because our enemy is global. Our
struggle should be global. We dis
cussed a lot of things. We discussed
fundamentalism, we discussed religion,
we discussed sex, we discussed class. I
spoke today about the new international
order of Bush. I said we should have
our new world women's order. We
must fight against this new world order
of Bush, it's a new imperialist order.
We must have our new women's world
order, with such characteristics: no
1985] American women - some of the
prominent American women, came to
me and told me "We do not want to
politicize the conference. Please do not
speak about political issues, or the Pal
estinian issue. We want to speak about
women's issues." And I was astonished.
I told them "but women's issues are
political. Everything is political." If a
husband rapes his wife in bed, this is
politics, because it's power; and dic
tatorship in the family is related to dic
tatorship in the state, is related to dic
tatorship in religion. And you cannot
separate them. You cannot separate sex
from religion or politics from interna
tional politics. And that's how we un
derstand feminism in our region. That's
our feminism. It has all these dimen

regulars
militarism, no double standards, separa sions?international politics, national,
We had an international women's peace tion between religion and state; religion the family, family, sex, psychology, the
Chicken Lady. 24 initiative: we went to Baghdad and
Geneva. We had a tour here with
is personal, or we re-interpret religion history, even anthropology. All of this.
Dykes to Watch Out For 24 and god is not a book, god is inside us. That's how we understand it. And that's
Letters. 27 Madre and wc did a lot of work to fight Freedom, justice, and god is not the the creativity of feminism, the input of
Ads . 29 against the war, to stop it. And wc
failed, but we were very outspoken
bible or the old testament or the Koran, feminism to the world's civilization. It's
god is human, inside each of us. This a new civilization. I think feminism is

front cover
against the war, and against American
intervention, the so-called Allies, etc.
is our women's world order.
There was a group discussing fun
a new civilization. To me, it's a new
science. Even in medicine. I am a
This photo originally appeared damentalism, discussing the Palestinian medical doctor, a psychiatrist, and I
on the cover United
of Nations Speak, of America problem in the middle east. In the
a feminist think women made a revolution in biol
newsjournal published by group,
And the double standard of the South some of the Israeli women were ogy, in psychology, in religion. And
African women.
United Nations. For an
We called it the upset, but it went on well. We told
"Unitedinterview then somebody comes and tells me to
Nations of America", in fact. So this them, "we differ, and you should separate between women's issues and
with one of the editors, please
listen". Hanan Ashrawi came. The
turn to page 2.
did not please the Egyptian government, politics. To me this is ridiculous.
so they closed the Association down. Palestinian spokeswoman for the Pales

back cover
This was the main reason. There were
many other reasons, chronic reasons.
tinian delegation [at the Middle East
peace talks]. She came and she spoke.
continued on page 6

graphic from mujer/fempress

clarification
oob collective who we are come to layout!
Most of the NOW
lorraine sorrel, jennieconference
ruby, tricia What we do is important to us and we
off our backs is a newsjournal by, for value your contributions and comments.
coverage (see oobf
lootens, feb
cecile latham, cricket keating, 92)
and about women. It has been
was written by collective
angela johnson, alice henry, oob's next layout is march 14th & 15th.
published continuously since 1970 and
member amyamyhamilton.
hamilton, tarar elliott,
is run by a collective. We have one Second class postage paid at
carol anne douglas
microfilm paid member, who works full-time as Washington, DC 20009.
Back issues of off our backs is interns office co-ordinator; the rest of us have ISSN # 0030-0071
available on microfilm from State other full-time jobs. <? off our backs, ine, 1993*
elda rodor, melissa klein
If you are interested in helping out Published monthly with combined
Historical Society of Wisconsin, att. with off our backs, you can write
James Buckett, 816 State St., friends articles, news, reviews or commentary
aug/sept issue by off our backs, ine,
Madison Wl 53706 barbara krause
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for us, send us artwork, or clip articles DC 20009, (202) 234-8072.
braille and tape that contain information of interest to Subscriptions cost: $19 individuals, $30
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off our backs/march 1992/page 1

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 interview
"Feminism is a new civilization":
continued from page 1
which way is up?
angela: Do you think that there is an
upward progress for women? Do you
think that things change for the better,
or just change? The things that were
happening in the Persian Gulf?power
shifted there, and power shifted there
repeatedly. Is it getting better, or is it
just changing?
nawal: Of course, the Gulf War was a
disaster. A disaster for everybody,
especially for the Arab people. A lot of
people were killed so that George Bush
dominates and takes our oil, and puts
permanent leaders in power in Saudi
Arabia and Kuwait, the Gulf region and
the Arab world. And that's why we call
it the new colonial order. So we are
defeated in the war, as Arab peoples,
Arab countries, nations, etc. And
women are half the Arab world, so
women are defeated. Poverty is in
creased, unemployment, funda
mentalism.
In fact, the fundamentalist move
ment is universal, it's political, it's not
only Islamics, it's Christians and Jews,
etc., etc. I agree to that. But
younger people, when they see
the double standard of George Bush,
when they see that he is so dis
criminatory to the Arab people and so
supportive of Israel, that he brought
thirty armies, thirty countries fighting
because he wanted to liberate Kuwait,
and he didn't move a finger to liberate
Palestine?he was even supporting Is
rael all the time?people felt the double
standard, so many young people became
fundamentalists, Islamic funda
mentalists, just to fight against Judaism,
Jews and Americans. Islam is their
identity, they fight for Islam. Those are
the enemies of Islam?George Bush
and Israel. The failure to solve the Is
raeli, Palestinian and Arab conflict in
creases fundamentalism in our region,
like what happened in Algeria.
I was in Algeria a few weeks ago,
because we were?when our association
was called in Egypt, we wanted to or
ganize our conference in Algeria. So
what I noticed is that the majority of the
fundamentalist movement in Algeria
were pro-Saddam Hussein; they were
against the Gulf War, they were against
Bush, against Israel. So they took it?
they went to fundamentalism because it
was part of their patriotic fighting. And
this is happening in many other coun
tries in the Arab world. So the effect of
the Gulf War is really very negative,
because whenever you have fundamen
talist movements, women are the first
targets. They veil women, they oppress
women. Even Jewish fundamentalists.
They oppress women. Christian fun
damentalists?they oppress women.
Because we are oppressed in all reli
gions. We are oppressed in the three
books. We are the first target.
angela: So what you're seeing now is a
worsening of conditions. It's getting
worse.
page 6/march 1992/off our backs
nawal: Somehow, yes. I can see after
my nature. Even when I was in jail, aboutI four years, and in that time I've
the Gulf War things are becoming was very optimistic. That's my charac
seen us go through hard times that were
worse. The gap between classes ter.in very depressing, and I think that the
creases, the gap between sexes in way you can stay committed to change
creases, the gap between us?so-called
angela: I first really became aware of is what you're saying?to always think
Third World?and so-called Firstpolitics at just about the time Ronald it's going to get better, and to have a lot
World increases. After the collapse of was elected in the United
Reagan of personal belief that what you're doing
the Soviet Union, we are the newStates.
ene And so my view is very pes is right. When I look at myself, and I
my. So they replace one devil bysimistic..a
ano constant disillusionment. look at what we're doing with our jour
ther devil. So from that point of view nal, I really think it's important. That
everything's gone backwards. nawal: Maybe because I am a fiction makes me love the work.
writer and a novelist, I am dreaming. I
angela: What do you think couldlive hapin dreams. I don't separate very nawal: Yes, I think it's related to love.
pen to turn that around? very much between reality and dreams, But also we have our moments of anger
and defeat. But that's natural, because
you cannot all the time be optimistic.
You become pessimistic one day, and
very low and defeated. And suddenly
something happens to you, and you be
come optimistic. And we have to en
courage this optimistic part in us. I en
courage it. And I develop it. And it's
sometimes illogical to be optimistic.
But still it's there. And this is the
power of the human being. And also
creativity and fiction?because you
dream.
angela: And your fiction is often rather
dream-likc. I'm thinking specifically of
The Circling Song.
nawal: Yes, yes. And The Woman at
Point Zero. Ferdaus, ah, yes. I wrote it
spontaneously. It came out.
Nawal El-Saadawi angela: When you write, do you sit
down with an idea beforehand, or do
nawal: Even when our association and
wasdreams to me span reality. Because you just write what comes to you at the
I amgov
closed, you know the decree of the a fiction writer. So I very much moment?
believe in progress and in the future.
ernment said that our money and our
belongings should go to another as And this also serves to bring me a lot of nawal: Well, it depends. For instance,
sociation called Women of Islam. power. When I lose hope, I am very Woman at Point Zero. When I saw this
In fact, fundamentalism in our weak.reYes, and when I have hope, woman, I couldn't rest except when I
gion?we call it State Fundamentalism.some power comes from nowhere. I finished the novel. It's a short novel,
feel a power.
But, there are positive things. Because it's more or less a real story with some
with each negative backlash, new pow And I remember we were in jail, imagination. But I finished it in one
ers come in fighting. And I think whenthe Sadat put us in jail in '81, and the week. I just sat and wrote it as a long
women with me were depressed and
conflict is greater, but there are many short story. So when it came up I was
people now who are women and men pessimistic, because Sadat was terrible, relaxed. I was so impressed with the
and he was strong, and we thought that
and young people and the poor, because meeting [with Ferdaus]. She inspired
when you are suffering, you seek.,we will be in jail forever, he will live me. I meet people sometimes who in
you have to fight back. So for twenty or thirty years and we will spire me. And I meet them and I want
though the power that pulls back a there.
be so And I was optimistic, and I to go home and write. Sometimes you
was smuggling toilet paper, writing my
ciety is strong, also the society?its read a book, or you see a movie, and
novel on it, and I was living, trying to
interest lies in progress, and diminution you want to go home and write. I met
of the gap between classes, and diminulive, and even to dance and to do this woman and I wanted to write. So
tion of the gap between sexes. Dimi something in this small cell. And they it depends on the subject. And some
nution of the gap between the first were
andastonished, and they called me times I plan it. Like The Fall of the
so-called Third World are also increas"Nawal the Naive." Yes! They called Imam, or my last novel, The Innocence
me that. "Nawal the Optimistic Naive."
ing. So there is positive, and that's why of the Devil. (It came in Arabic only,
Andin
I am optimistic. I am very optimistic, they tell me, "We are going to die not yet in English). The Fall of the
here." I tell them "No. He will die
spite of everything. Devil?for years?an incubation peri
before us. Can you imagine? We will od. The Innocence of the DeviL I had
angela: So you think that there can survive."
be And he died before us! So, to re-read the Bible, the Old Testament,
though his death never came to my
overall progress, despite the setbacks the Koran. It's a novel based on?it's
that we're seeing right now? mind, I thought "No, I am not going to different in style. With each novel, my
be defeated. Never. I am not defeat style changes with the subject.
nawal: Yes, yes, yes. And this ised."
his
tory. Because human history goes inAnda when they closed the associa angela: It's hard to get a feel for whe
tion, I am not defeated. I am suing the
zig-zag line. Two steps forward and ther your style is progressing, because
government. I am taking the govern
one step back...two steps forward?we they haven't come out (in the States) in
mentbeto court. And thirteen lawyers
are in the step back. But there will chrononological order. But they're cer
two steps forward, and that's whyvolunteered
hu to defend us. And I am op tainly very different. When I was in
timistic. I think we will win. Even if
manity progresses. Of course. So the college I read The Hidden Face of Eve.
we lose the case, I think we will win.
future will be better than the present or 1 was very young, and I had come from
the past. I believe in the future. That's
angela: I've been with the paper for
coni, on next page
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Nawal El-Saadawi Speaks *
my own very fundamentalist back
ground. But it was exciting to read, it
made me start to see that women were
not just the women that I had grown up
with.
nawal: Though it's written by a woman
in the Arab world, how can you com
pare this with other books in English?
Feminist books? It's the same. I met a
German woman who came to Egypt
looking for me. She read The Hidden
Face in German, translated. She was
young, in college. She economized her
ticket from Germany to Cairo, and she
came and I was in Alexandria. She
went to Cairo and somebody told her I
was in Alexandria. She came to Alex
andria and I was walking by the sea,
and she told me "You are Nawal El
Saadawi? I came to meet you from
Germany. I read your book, The Hid
den Face, and it changed my life." A
German woman! I never forget that.
Because in the Arab world I usually
meet a lot of young men and women,
young women and men sometimes who
read my books and say "You know,
your book changed my life." But a
German woman, to come from Ger
many! And now when you told me that
you read The Hidden Face and it gave
you insight, I think this a big reward for
a writer. And I have no rewards in my
country, no rewards! I'm always pun
ished.
I am not allowed to speak to the me
dia. So a lot of people there know me,
but some younger generations...some
people don't know me at all. In some
Arab countries, there is no restriction.
For instance, in Algeria, I am much
known. I am more well known in
Europe than in America. Whenever I
go to London I am interviewed by the
BBC, by television, by radio, by the
newspapers. In Germany also I am
known; in France; in Sweden; in all
European countries. But in the States,
because my books are not here?
angela: How does it feel to be so well
known?
nawal: Sometimes I don't feel I am so
well known. You know, the human
personality is very strange. As if I am
two persons. Nawal El Saadawi the
genuine one and Nawal El Saadawi the
writer. They are mixed. So the two
together, the one who feels she is op
pressed and a failure and not known,
etc., etc., and the other one who feels
she's known and achieved, and they go
together all the time. But of course, to
be known is very gratifying. I think
people like to be known. I cannot lie
and say "Well, I don't want to be
known, I hate it." Some people say
"Oh, I am fed up, I don't want to be
known, it's annoying me". I cannot lie.
It's very good to be known and people
to recognize you. It's very rewarding.
It proves that you did something. And
especially if you are known not through
the traditional power structure. I am
known in spite of my government. I
am not an establishment writer. There
are many writers in Egypt and in the
Arab world who are really helped by
their government to be known. They
are in the media, the govermnent trans
lates their work, etc., etc. But I was
known in spite of my opposition to my
government. My books were translated
without the help of the government. So
this gives me a lot of satisfaction, that I
made my own self. Nobody made me.
I have no family, because I came
from a very poor family in the village.
In Egypt, and in many Arab countries,
you must have a feudal big family to
support you, to help you; a family with
a name, because we have a class sys
tem. So if you are from a big family,
that helps you. So, I didn't have a fam
ily, really, in that sense, to help. I didn't
have a government to help me, because
I was against the government. The
government dismissed me from my
work, put me in jail, banned my books,
distorted my reputation, silenced me,
closed the Association. So I am build
ing my own self in spite of all the fac
tors in my country that can help any
body: family, class, state, anything.
This gives me some satisfaction, that I
made it myself.
writing outside the shell
I think writing is a beautiful
weapon. The pen is a beautiful weapon.
I love writing, and especially fiction. I
put myself in people, and that's why I
touch the heart of people. And also
when I was talking this morning, I felt
that there was a sort of love between
me and the people. I never prepared
the talk, I just talked.
I think writing, also, when you
write spontaneously?when you give
yourself, people feel it. Writing
sometimes is very, very difficult. When
I tried to pre-plan something, it doesn't
come out as when I really just be myself.
But we have?everybody has some
mask. I really try not to have a mask at
all, and to fight against this mask, try to
be myself. But it makes you also very
vulnerable. There is no shell. I learn
from my life. When I risk, I gain.
Even when I risk myself. So I put my
self out here, that's it, and let's see
what's going to happen.
angela: I'm a lesbian. People say it's
very hard to be out, because you're open
to attack, which is true. But it's so much
easier?so much easier than holding
yourself in.
nawal: It's liberating. When you lie,
when you hide something, it needs en
ergy. It needs a lot of memory to hide.
You have all the time to remember that
you have to hide. But if you leave
yourself out, nothing will happen. And
people should accept people as they are.
This happened to me several times. For
instance, when I wrote my first chapter,
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interview
about clitorodectomy, which happened school, he w
to me. The opening chapter for The scholarships
Hidden Face of Eve. I was very very versity and h
frightened. But like you, I said "I'm Education. S
writing this." Because writing is en marry a wom
riching. You create yourself. Writing So he went an
is powerful, very powerful. who came fr
I remember in our jail, the jailor class or uppe
comes and inspects the cell, and says "If So I was bro
I find a paper and pen in your cell, it's ses: the very
more dangerous than if I find a gun." father, and t
You are not allowed to have a piece of mother. And
paper, or even toilet paper, to write on. class-conscio
Can you imagine? maternal rel
much. They
And I hated
loved much
"I was smuggling toilet ther, though
paper, writing my novel on sants. The ot
So in fact, w
it, and I was living."
- nu il r I-1 I <~ 1
mother was
cause she mar
was sixteen.
angela: And how did you write then? got her out
ther, and she
nawal: Well, the prostitutes' cell was she died whe
near us. They allowed the prostitutes Miserable wo
radio, television and paper, everything; mother. But
but not the political cell, our cell. They a post in Ed
prevented newspaper or radio or televi sion. He bel
sion or paper?anything?or letters. because educ
And they didn't want us to write any dying prema
small letter and send it outside. So
also from p
that's why they prevented us from [hav became a dir
ing] a piece of paper or pen. But I the province
[made] friendship with a prostitute of us in Uni
through the bars, and she smuggled us.
some of the toilet paper from her cell to
us?to me. And I had to hide it in a [oob note: at this point, the tape ran
out, and a few minutes of the interview
tin, under the ground, so when the jailer were lost to posterity.]
comes to inspect, they didn't find it.
And I wrote with a small pen?it was nawal: On one of the days of the con
an eyebrow pen. So I used to sit at ference, I saw a group of people pro
night, when everybody is sleeping, and testing abortion across from the hotel
write under a very dim light with this where the conference was held, and
small pen like that on toilet paper. For began to speak with them. They were
me, this was paradise?to have such against abortion. And they are women.
toilet paper, it was paradise. You have I asked why; they said, because they are
to read my Memoirs from Prison. I doing that demonstration against NOW.
described all that.
the price of freedom
angela: When did you learn to speak
English? They intended to stand there, to meet
those women, the feminist women of
nawal: Well, it's draining. I studied in NOW. So why those women are doing
Egypt. I studied medicine in Egypt. that? You see? Like why women are
The faculty of medicine in Egypt, in raped, why women are beaten by their
Cairo, they taught us medicine in Eng husbands and still stay, etc., etc.
lish. Also, I was in an English school I think this is related to the whole
in my small town. I spoke when I was mechanism of conditioning and social
a little girl, in the school. And then in izing, and that women prefer to be safe
the high school, I lost my English, and
and secure in marriage, because it's very
then I gained it in the college. dangerous to be free. Though a lot of
young women today love my books,
angela: How did you get in to college? and tell me "you've changed my life",
You came from the village, from a poor etc., sometimes they tell me "I prefer to
family? go and marry some husband who'll pro
vide for me and live under a roof with
nawal: My father came from a very nobody to attack me"?they are afraid,
poor family. He had six sisters and his they are afraid of my life. They say I
mother, and his father died very early of can't go to jail, I can't be dismissed
some endemic disease among the pea from my work, I can't be divorced like
sants. So my grandmother decided that you, I cannot, I cannot, I cannot. So
her son would never be a peasant, and they are afraid, because the price of
would not die young. She was a very freedom is very, very high, especially at
strong-willed woman, and she educated our age, and that's why they go back.
her son. She used to tell me "I starved They are not ready to pay the price of
to educate your father." And he went to freedom. Even in the United States.
off our backs/march 1992/page 7