1ISVAN S3ILAININ JHL NI WINANID 00°S$ 2°0N XX 10A eurauro aya jo sainiod pue ye ay} uo aujzeBew Buipes} seouewyWhen the Personal Becomes Political An Interview With Ross McElwee by Cynthia Lucia cinéma vite filvumakers, Ross McElwee, like many of his contemporaries, modifies are fuses the tenets of divect ‘nema with those of cinéma vérité. He allows everyday events to tunfld in all shir unpredictable ambiguity, yet rejects the posibilty of invisibility, believing, instead, that ‘versions of reality or truth surface as people react tothe artifical presence of a camera in their lives, Unlike any other filmmaker, however, McElwee extends this approach by foregrouading his presence. He develops a richly textured subjectivity through eloquent voice-over narration ‘anid impromptu on-camera monologs, in which he meditates upon the complications of flering life through lens, of trying to live life while filing it his highly acclaimed Sherman's Match: A ‘Meditation of the Possibility of Romantic Love in the South during an Era of Nuclear Weapons Proliferation (1985), he somershat ruefully mses, “My real life as fallen into the crack between myself and my film.” Mintdane moments are infused with humor aud quirky self reflexive shadings as McElwee's camera gets in the way—hugging old friends becomes an avwkward exercise and intimate relationships ‘wear thin with this metal-clad thied party ever present. In Sher: man's March, when McElwee walks through the door to meet a blind date, camera mounted on his shoulder, his longtime friend, Ierself the subject of his first fle, Charleen (1978), can’t help but intervene. “This is not art, this is lie,” she proclaims, thrusting her hand against the lens. And sometimes when McElwee attempts to {film his father in Backyard (1982) and Time Indefinite (1993), the battery dies or film jams, suggesting to McElwee that his father emits a “Freudian force fied” activated by his equipment. ‘McElwee responds to the people he's filming, even when he adopts the more ‘invisible’ direct cinema approach as he does with his collaborators in Space Coast (1978), film observing three peo- ple living in a barren Cape Canaveral, and Resident Exile (1981), ‘about art Iranian student living in Texas after enduring brutal car~ ture under the Shak. A small but poignant moment unfolds in Space Coast (1978), when MeBlwee reaches out for a phone hand- ced 10 him by a young mother asking if the welfare office has hung pon her. Political content in much of McElwee's work is subtly ad intr cately woven within the complex patterns of human interaction. When McElwee returns to his native North Carolina fo make Back yard, a film about the South, which, “for me, isa film about my family," he explains, the complicated neiwork of interracial rela- tions reveals itself as we follow the daily routine of Lucille and ‘Melvin, the black couple who work for the jamily. McElwee admits that while growing up, he never questioned the fact that men like -Melvie took care of the garden while their wives took care of him. Altiough McElwee’s romantic misadventures spark hilarious yet introspective commentary, Sherman’s March explores the implica tions of placing people particularly women, infront of the camera, Following General Sherman's path of destruction through the South ‘and searching for love along the way, McElwee begins relationships with somie wounen and ends relationships with others, enforcing his A central figure anrong America’s ‘second generation’ of 32 CINEASTE playfully ironic affinity with Sherman, who waged war against Civilians, in a portion of the country he claims to have loved. ‘As he begins filming Time Indefinite, McElwee indeed has {found romantie love. He marries filmmaker Marilyn Levine, with ‘wltom he collaborated on Something to Do with the Wall (1990), fa documentary about the culture and polities surrounding Check- ‘point Charlie in Berlin, both before and after the wall fll. During the course of filming Time Indefinite, Ross and Marilyn suffer a ‘miscarriage, celebrate the birth of their son, and mourn the unex pected death of McElwee's father. While sometimes witty and iron- fc. as in his other films, McElwee's tone is largely one of somber reflection —on the fleeting quality of time, of family relationships ‘and of the cinematic image, which attempts to capture and hold ‘omc i all | ‘Attempting to occupy his four-year-old son Adrian with paper and magic markers, MeElvee met with Cineaste in his office and ‘editing room at Harvard, where he currently teaches. McElwee fanswers questions about his films and articulates his thoughts about ipetsonal documentary as a form of politcal intervention. —Cynthia Lucia Gineaste: While your fils fall within the cinéma vit tradition, you depart radially from the cinéma vésité style of filmmakers ike your acknowledged mentor, Richard Leacock. How do you ‘Hharactrize your brand of cinéma verte? Foss MeEiwee: My use of cinema vr is definitely present—i's Undeniable, and I cerfainly owe a great allegiance to that whole tradition, Fred Witeman has done such a terrific job of perfecting i, even thgugh i's imperfctible, in a sense. In effect, The message tothe ret of us has been, find something else to do. Not literally-there afe an infinite number of fine cinéma verité films to be made, bug I've felt that there's got to be some very different way to use the style. Perhaps that’ a negative impetus sway of describing why T took the form and started to play with i, Peet Ther has always been someting that baer ie « ite bit about the invisible camera of classic cinéma vérit#—not cnactly a pretense at objectivity, but an attempt at some pure form of objectivity always seemed impossible and, atleast in my attempts, dishonest in some ways. Invall of the Godagdian hue and cry about objectivity and truth being captured by'a camera at twenty-four frames per sec- ond, I've missed the idea of subjectivity. Somehow melding the two-the objective data ofthe world with a very subjective, very interior consciousness, as expressed through voice-over and on- camera appearances seemed to give me the clay from two dif- ferent pits to work with in sculpting something that suited me better than pure cinéma vérité But there's something undeniably magnetic and enthralling about cinéma vrié for all the best rea Sons and all the voyeuristic wrong reasons that continues to pull tus in to it asa gente. Gineaste: Flow do cinéma vérité purists, like Ricky Leacock, feel about your work? ‘McElwee: | think if Ricky had a qualm about the filmmaking, i twould be the massive dose of subjectivity and angst as perceivedthrough the narration of the filmmaker. He professes ta like my films 2 lot, but I can’t help but think that he's a little suspect of the whole endeavor. | mean, t 25. tad indulgent to make films like this and certainly antithetical to the tenets of cinéma vérite But he keeps appearing in my films, which is, I suppose, some sort of tacit approval of them. And they are, in some offhand sense, a sort of affectionate homage to him. Gineaste: [1 seems that you're as much a writer as you are a filmmaker. ‘McElwee: | think so, for better or worse, L wanted to be a writer before wanting to be a filmmaker. What partly motivated my break from cinéma vérité is that the writer attempted to quash when going into film just wouldn't die. He keeps inserting himself into my films. 1 lebor for hundreds of hours over the narration, revising endlessly. Cineaste: Altiougi: your narration contains a strong sense of irony and wit, you respect the people you're filming, for the mast part. Moments must thraw themselves in front af you, making it emptng to lapse into a judgmental stance, as Michael Moore seems todo in Roger and Me, Ist hard to keep yourself from doing that? McElwee: Well, certainly. 1s very difficult. The single biggest problem I still have, even with the tempered form of cinema vérité that I've ended up employing, is the necessity to avoid exploiting people and setting people up to be laughed at by an audience. Let's face it, some people deserve it, like the survivalist in Sherman's March who were saying you can't trust the communists | feel no qualms at all about presenting them for ‘what they are, They told their own story—I didn’t narrate during that section of the film. But there are other situations where | ‘ued the ethical line pretty thinly Cineaste: You do in Sherman's March when Karen’s boyfriend ‘moves huge plastic ansinnals frau place ta place. The whole endeavor Tooks pretty silly, and the angles at which you photograph hint emphasize its silliness ‘McElwee: That's not the example { would choose. | think he comes off as a big, macho guy, but a fellow with a strange, artsy twist of some kind—what the hell are these animals they're moving around? It's also very southern—a moment of southern surrealness. Perhaps it seems more normal to me and other southerners than it does to northerners. The example I would cite would be Claudia. I have footage of some of her friends who were simply out in another arbit—one person who was marketing space food for use in case of nuclear disasters. Tended up cutting out the most bizarre, absurd material because, ater @ number of screenings, I realized it was so far off the edge that it was, in fact, detrimental to the film as a whole. I's very hard to make those decisions, You have these moments that you could never script—they're so surreal, so humorous—but | ad to take them out. And it’s not because I think I'm such a virtuous person. It's more because it was working against the script. The problem of exploitation is one that won't go away. Gineaste: When Pat, the aspiring actress, does her cellulite exercises in Sherman’s March, and you accidentally turn off your tape recorder, itdoes elicit lauglter. ‘McElwee: But Pat is on top of the situation, She knows she's hhaving an eifect upon whomever is watching her performance in real life or in this movie. She clears the hurdle. She is in control ‘of the image, It's also a meditation on what it means to be an actress, even in this twisted way. Pat had a strange, surrealist ]ook at life and a cockiness, but she wasn’t pathetic. That's why 1 could film her as I did. I step over the linea few times. In Space Coast we stepped aver it a lot, especially in scenes where the "space reporter,” Mary, covers rocket launch after launch, trying, to make ‘nevis’ where none exists Cineaste: Does refracting experience through a camera lens politicize moments thar might have been relatively apolitical ‘otherwise? ‘McElwee: think it does. Going back to Goslard, who said every edit isa political statement, by extension [ think every camera movement i a political statement. You opt to 200m in because you're after something. You've got to be aware of the political Implications of every camera movement, every edit, every decision to shoot as opposed to not shoot when its real life that Pat, an aspiring actress, speaks on the phone with fimmaker Ross McElwee in Sherman's March 1985} CINEASTE 33you're flming. I was aware of it in Sherman's March, especially ‘shen | filmed material having to do with nuclear weapons proliferation, whichis of course, an overtly politi sve Gineaste: In Sherman's March, it sems that having a camera in {front of you becomes a means of forcing situations while not having to take ful responsibility for doing so. For instance, when you speak to Jackie, the antinuclear activist and former girlfriend to whom you felt unable to make @ commitment, you ask, “Do you want to set married?” in what sounds like a serious tone. Had You not had the camera, I doubt you would have said that. {McEwoe: | think its teve. The camera isa catalyst, and it does imensfy and force things. You'te after something with the camera. You're often not even sure what it is moment to moment, but it does motivate you Gineaste: think twas a dificult moment for her McElwee] do too. An edgy moment. Cineaste: Just afer shat, you tare her about becoming cynical it Ihr dale age aed she asks you if you aren't also becoming eynical ‘A that point the scene ends. Ts that away of maintaining a certain, privacy that you don't wat violated? ‘McElwee: i was more meant to suggest that the question is open because I'm in the middle of trying to answer it for myself. I's hard to remember, though. [ may have just, frankly, run out of film, which does have a certain amount to do with how you end tap editing scenes. Maybe 1 iked the cadence of breaking it off without an answer or the fact that it was asking ane of the {questions the film asks-is there any other way tobe but cynical, given the fact that we were perched on the nuclear sword blade, sivn the fol that Seemed imposible to work oot a close Felationship in this later half ofthe twentieth century at ast {roan the persfective ofthe flint Cineaste: Another paradoxical situation in Sherman's March ‘ccurs with Karen, the lawyer and your longtime fiend, It seems that you're using the camera as @ way of ending the relationship, sven though i voice-over you say that you'te trying to convince her to fall ilove with you. Do yo fee thatthe camera plays a rale in th rage going on berwen our ow conscious thoughts and subconscious desires? McElwee: Yes, of course. IF were really serious, would 1 be filming her? IF really wanted her to love me, would T not have ppt the camera dawn, and convinced her of my seriousness i doing that? Part aft i knowing that i's alost cause, so { may 25, well make a god film out of it. And I think the viewer i aware fof this. But by that point in the film, the audience has either decided to play this gare with you or not, They're factoring into their subconstious, somehow, the element of this all being a kind ‘of fiction because this guy i trying to film it all. How can he really be since, how cat he really be serious? Cineaste: ui what about the women involved? ‘McElwee: "To some degree, theyte playing along, with the game, Cineaste: Partly. But here 1 wonder if there isn'ta kind of exploitation. There's a vulnerability. ‘McElwee: Of course, with Karen. Vulnerability with the camera is a major theme of Sherman's March. And the scenes where Karen tells me to put the camera down were kept in the film bbeeause I wanted people to think about that issue. 1 could have just dropped the whole scene, and the film would have rolled Along toa more graceful conclusion. But {agre. I's obnoxious ‘shat 'm doing inthe film, and i’s meant to beg the question of, "What do I think I'm geting away with here?” To some degre, ane taking advantage of people, exploiting their goodwill, their vulnerability, their friendship and their trust, in a sense. But there's also something genuine behind this expoitation in some kind of twisted way. There's something real at stake emotionally. If there weren't, the fm would not work because people would have been so turned off by it Gineaste: To what extent do you belive you objecify the wore you film in Sherman's March? I sense a difference inthe way you fil somne of them and the way you fin your wife Marilyn bn Time 34 CINEASTE Indefinite, for instance. You seem more obsessed with the quotidian details oftheir lives—their putting on makeup, fixing their hair, ‘tc —than when you filet Marilyn. ‘McElwee: I think what you're describing is more circumstantial than me distinguishing or changing my approach because it's Marilyn. There are some things that | film differently with Marilya, but remember that was free to film pretty much anything | wanted in Sherman's March. # didn’t have any ‘domestic obligations. I was younger, and I was a single man. The ‘women I’m encountering are somewhat distant from my life— Fm getting to know them or P'm exhuming 2 relationship that died. So there isa kind of objectification going on. I expected to bbe asked this alot more than Twas. I was waiting for the feminist onslaught that never came, and I think there's @ reason for that, to be honest. There is, | hope, a sort of humanness in how I'm responding to the people in front of me, a kind of jttery, what- do-I-do-now? that we all feel when we're getting to know somebody of dealing with a complicated emotion. That's what the filming represents—not that I'm making women into objects. And audiences sccm to read the film inthis way. At the same time, the film is very aware ofthe (raditional rela tionship between director and actress that has always existed and is epitomized in films like Dreyer’s The Passion of Joan of Arc itn which Falconetti is brutally assaulted by the camera—all the ‘unbearably painful close-ups—in a way that brings her to tears (on film. You can (eel this going on behind the scenes of the film: ‘making—it’s the history bebind the making of the film. And in documentary film, Ed Pincus’s Diaries pushed this notion to the limit, Diaries had a big influence on my work. ‘One theme of Sherman's March is to explore documentary as an alternative 1o fiction filmmaking, but again, as Godard liked to say, the poles of fiction and nonfiction are constantly boune: ing their force fields back and forth between each other. To ‘examine fiction and documentary isto beg that whole question cof what it means to set another person before the camera, trying to exact something of their soul. It addresses directly questions such as-—When are we exploiting? When are we caressing? Are they, maybe, the same? Maybe it’s impossible’ not to do both, Maybe thats the truth of human relationships. All of those ques: tions are brought up intentionally in Sherman's March and in the ‘way it's filmed. The audience is meant to think about those ques: tions on some level. Cineaste; Your work has become increasingly self-reflexive. In ‘Time Indefinite, nor only do you narrate in voice-over and on- camera monologs, asin some of your earlier films, but you're now doing a monolog and simultancously commenting upon that monolog in voice-over. It's very layered. While it establishes subjectivity, doesn’t it also attempt to position the audience more critically in relation 0 the ‘constructed’ quality of your films? McElwee: Um definitely playing that game, which is an old one. Brecht was playing it sixty years ago. I'm making the audience aware that it's only a movie, but in doing that, of course it’s a way of drawing people into the movie. That's certainly a subversion of cinémg_yérité, Suddenly you see the filmmsker addressing the camera, and you're forced, if it’s working correctly, ( question not only what he’s doing but what you're doing as an audience member, and I like that, That calculation is very much intentional ‘The monolag in Time Indefinite is layered, and maybe there is an attempt to take it one layer beyond where [took it last time. ‘The truth of the matter is, also, {hated the original, synchronized. rionolog I filmed, and in fact decided 1 wasn’t going to use it. At the time of the filming, I was too depressed by the events in the Latter half of the film ta have done the monolog as I would have six months later. I edited it into the film and then felt I coulda’t possibly put it in the film. It’s too morbidly, fatalistically depressed, And God knows, the audience has to sit through ‘enough in this flay as itis, without dumping this on them, as‘well. But later on {realized that the audience does need to see me at some point—they've seen my brother, my sister and CCharleen—maybe there's a way in which I can use the monolog by subverting it. Itwas an attempt to turn a loss into again, to be honest. In some ways, the scene now represents the ego and the superego at work, at battle there. Gineaste: In Time Indefinite, when Charleen rakes you to the site of the fire her husband Jim set, destroying their house and ending This own life, then 10 the fire station 10 show you pliotos of the fire, ‘and finally on a failed journey to scatter his ashes, there seems 0 be fa strong element of performance, Were you aware of this as you were fling? MoElwee: Of course. And I was aware of it with Pat in Sherman's ‘March. It goes back to the initial inquiry of what cinéma véritéis, Ginéma vérité looks for performers in everyday life; without them you really haven’t got footage. Some people have whatever that quality is that makes them interesting on film—a kind of self-confidence, sef-assuredness, mixed, perhaps with a degree fof vulnerabilityand other people don’t have i, but you know it aca filmmaker when you see it. I's not all that’s necessary, but it’s part of what's necessary for a film of this sort to work properly. And it can also be a kind of performance that’s not as extravagant as Pat's or Charleen’s. Most importantly, you have to sense that there's something real behind the so-called performance, Cineaste: Your sife Marilyn has a strong sere presence in Time Indefinite, She seems to look througl the camera to you and then 10 us, providing a subil layer of commentary upon you. ‘McEtwee: Yes. ‘Presence’ is more the word | would use. The mechanic in Sherman's March who's working on the car also has that presence. There's something in his face, a kind of luminosity and some way in which he moves me as I film him, which [hope is passed on to the viewer. Cineaste: Time Indefinite has very tile of tke political undercurrent present int your earlcr films. There's almost a sense that family sort of forces you out of the political, although it's certainly nota retreat to “fail values ‘Sherman's htarch ‘McEtwee: Which was my single biggest fear about how the film ‘would be construed or interpreted or used by people I didn't particularly want using i. As | was editing it, Vice President Dan ‘Quayle was all over the place talking about family values, and I kept shuddering, thinking, “God, that beter nat be what I'm doing—making 4 feature length commercial for the Republican Party.” [certainly don't want to suggest that a person must have a conventional family to live rich, fulfilled life. My friends, both gay and straight, who chose not to have families, lead wonderfully fulfilled lives. Cineaste: Your concern surface bitin the fl. ‘McElwee: It does. But I think 'm looking, I don’t want to say beyond politics, but into the politics of my own life. Family is a kind of ultimate political statement because i's about deciding to give up some of your life for someone who's helpless and in need of tremendous support and love. If politics is working correctly, that’s how it should be operating on a social evel, so maybe by some stretching of the definition, you can think about family as a kind of political statement. Politicswhether it be communism or democracy—demands that you recognize the ‘humanness shared by all people; it's about how to allovr people their humanity. Both communism and democracy have obviously failed abysmaily at it. But in a family you have to reconstruct the politics of humanity, with three, five, seven people. It becomes a hothouse experiment that’s being conducted constantly. But for the most part, | can't really claim to be making a political film in Time Indefinite ‘The inclusion of Lucille and Melvin is meant to represent the filmmaker shifting away from his own self-absorption and towards a contemplation of our common humanity. They’e blacks, and this may be a subtle political inference of some kind, although [ don’t particularly try to articulate it. At one point [ ‘wrote a narration that was very explicit in saying these people Inad suffered all their lives. Lucille has had no education, nor has Melvin, They've never had enough money of proper medical care. [also wrote about how awkward I felt abauit being in their CINEASTE. 35lives tothe extent that Iwas and how my image exploitation was something | always had thought about and didn’t fel eniely Sommtortabte sath But tiny {yas ace the whole narration Backyard wacny attempt to give expression to those complex matters In Time indefinite, te best {can do i simply include this event™the confirmation of wedding vows on ther fiftieth anniversary—which represents something important in thee tives and aso reflect Back to my own life et people draw their own concusions Cineaste: Tat was a wise choice, because otherwise you would frave ‘ghettoized’ the whole situation-~as though saying, these are te black people in tu fi, predominantly about my whitefly dnd privilege ad everything eee Mediwoe: Right, But is difficat, When you asked whether picking up the camera and aiming it st someone is. Politczation of not that's certainly intensified when is a white Pesson filming black person, Ithas tobe by definition Gineuste: Resident Exile is your most overtly polite fim, yt ot times it becomes distracted by Title hoppenvance events that are not especially politica. For instance. you seem drawn ta the Ghereaders as Kazam was on campus nd there's hat wonderful irony of the dentist working on Kacam's teeth with agressive inns, while asking Kazan abou the torture he endured Iran tinder the Shah Did yon fel the ned t keep yourself from getting to dave ita these monent? IMeEiwee: No.1 collaborated on that flim with other people, and sve certainly felt that there was an obvious political tnrexd— tore ofariver—running through the in. But we werent going {allow this facto preclude she litle unpredicable moments of everyday life that cinéma vérit isso good at capturing, We were never seriously tempted to cut what sorte people might have thought of asthe trivial or bansl parts of every il, in evar of having nothing but overt political observations, staiements, or iumtapositons. Never | think the most political thing Ten do, Inyway, isto try to render people's lives including my own, in Some sort of context that makes other people interested, empathetic, questioning, or even anipathetc 40 what they'ro Sceing--but that somehow engages them to look a hfe a8 it's realy ved and react oi ‘Overly politcal documentaries playa valuable role in geting facts across to people about things that they're not aware of Panama Deception ian example. from the very beginning of the Panama invasion { wondered, "Whats happening to these hun dreds maybe thousands of civilians who are being shelled and strafed? Why aren't media people talking about this?” But f didn't go down thete and make'a fm about i I's obviously omething that somebody needed to do. But then the question becomes, do people who are not leaning leftward anyway sit through more than two mites of these ims to find out about them! | hope the answer i yes | think sometimes iis, but’ a dilemma for people making overly politica films | don't make those films, not because I have an aversion to them, but] just com to take a whole diferent tact or approach. f anything, pol- tics lnk into my fms. Gineaste: Space Coss is an example, The political material there but itsortof gets lest along the way. ‘Meteo: don" fel it gets lost: fel that it's there consistently but subtly, We weren't interested in making our observations about Cape Canaveral in 2 more overt way because the omplerity of day to day life sid i 9 much more cloquen than we could with informational narration. You've got this juxtaposition of massive amounts of money being spent on the Space program andthe fat that back on earth-in Canaveral’ inackyare~ people's lives were stil a muddle, I's not ae if federal money could have definitely changed ths, though it could have helped. It's more the values that in some ways were archetypicilly American that we found reflected inthe varios lies we med just fel an overwhelming sadness about thoce walucs andthe effect they were having on people's lives. I's 3 36 CINEASTE kind of political sadness but something more than thi There's even a meraplaysieal saint floating through the lives in Space Coast. 1 don't like speaking in ‘coarse generalizations, but these people are reaching out to something, something that would give their lives some kind of meaning—and it is often hreavenward, in a way. The space program, in the meantime, keeps Taunching rockets and people go ‘out on their porches to watch, Cineaste: In Something to Do with the Wall you and your wife Marilyn, with whom you ao collaborated, found a greater cross section of the culture around Checkpoint Charlie in Berlin than perhaps you were & able to find in Space Coast. e McElwee: | agree. In Space Coast we were attracted 10 the surreal. In Something to Do swith the Wall, we were looking, for something beyond that— j ‘Top to bottom: McElwee, wite Marlyn Levine, and their son Adrian today; McElwee “and Charleen Swansea in Time indefinite. Lucile and Molvin Stafford celbrate their ‘oth anniversary in Time Indefinite: MeEWwree, ‘Marilyn, and baby Adrian during producti ‘of Something To Do withthe Wall. iaybe it seflects @ kind of maturation on our parts that we didn’t merely want to display the freak show aspect of life, which was surely there to he filmed. We tried to go beyond that, to show some of the more normal, the more poignant, even humane aspects of day to day life next to the wall Ginesste: Hud she Berlin Wall not come down and had you not hhad to return three years later to fm that event, what would have laoen your plan forte film? ‘McElwee: Back in 1986, we thought we were making a nicely ‘obscure film about an interesting icon of the Cold War that people hadn't been thinking about for a long time. We thought it ‘might also be our little contribution to saying, “Look, the Cold War is ridiculous, End it, politicians! Here's the way it has affected people's lives.” And the wall was the physical, tangible ‘manifestation of what the Cold War had done to our entire hives. People in their forties had lived with this damned thing all of their lives, and for the younger generations coming into it, nothing had changed. Why was this? Why were we living under nuclear threat? To render this verbally, of course, was to present a very tired monolog we'd all heard before. But we thought maybe by filming it the way that we did might call attention to the absurdity of the situation once again and might be of intezest to people, It was also the twenty ffih anniversary of the wall. [\ So mesa Nora “thought maybe people would shake their heads and say, “Oh, the Berlin Wall, it’s still there—here's 2 film about it” Current ‘events certainly forced us to change that expeetatian’ When the wall fell, we immediately flew to Berlin to film how it had changed our subject’ lives. Gineaste: Images of your son, Adrian, a baby a the time, frame the film, providing the window of history, of a new generation now not Knowing about the Cold War. Yer, it feels bit forced, ‘McElwee: To be honest, there was a kind of schizophrenia about what kind of film we ‘were making, The first version that dealt with the events of 1986 didn’t include Adrian. Adding it seemed to be a way to frame it in a slightly personal context, What's problematical is that it sets up an expectation of an autobio iraphical film on the part of the filmmakers and then it doesn't deliver, of it only sporadically delivers. We were o.._ Htankly distracted and fatigued Ym by. the political events surrounding the wall, haw it Forced us to recast the file completely, ta go back and shoot 2 second part, when we thought we were just making a fifty minute film. And the bigth of our son made it very difficult to edit as a team on the film. The film got very good reviews, but you're not the first person to suggest that there's something that doesn’t quite work about the insistence upon personalizing the ending. We may have been to0 close to it to tell whether it was a good decision ar not, [ like Something t@ Do with she Wall bat i's a film that never quite fll together for me, {in these cinéma veri films which are unscripted by nature, i's always risk that you ru, Cineaste: [Does documentary ever become a barrier to reaching certain truths? Do you ever flirt with the possibility of making {fiction ils? ‘McElwee: t's not so much that documentary can't achieve truth as fully as fiction, it's more this old problem of barging into people's lives with » camera and not finally falling apart trom the stress of doing that, both the stress to them and to you, the exploitation issue—it’s these things that make me think I've got to try fiction at some point. But imperently documentary i stil going fo have some kind of an edge in getting at a teuth that fiction doesn’t have. And, of course if you re intelligent about it you have to admit that there's no single truth, no single reality anyway. Gineaste: A central thematic strand running throughs almost all of {your films is the tension between art and life. At one point in the rarration in Sherman's March you say. “It seems I'm filming my life in order to have a life to film.” Doesn't capturing the moment (on film paradoxically create a more intense sense of living yet simtltancousty distance yo from living? ‘McElwee: Filming real life does intensify it. It definitely has the dual effect of both propelling you right into the center of things and also making it impossible for you to participate tly. [try to ‘capitalize upon this paradoxical dilemma in my films. lalso use it metaphorically as a meditation on narcissism and self absorption, For me, putting a camera on my shoulder is a ‘wonderful way of intersecting with life. It sparks a response from people I'm filming, It takes me places I wouldn't ordinarily go, ot just geogeaphically but emotionally and psychologically with the people i'm filming and with myself. But espectally when you'te filming family, it creates tis terrific dilemma of feeling, “1 a MeEhvoe with his father, Br Ross ‘cetwee. don't really want to be filming right now, Pd rather just be with these people 1 love.” ‘this kind of filmmaking, unlike any other 211 form, realy doce bog that question of whether Tam | epost from life observing it or a part of life, participating in it. You have to be both of those things to make these kinds of films work Gineaste: Do you find that the people you've filmed over the years, like Charleen, your sister, your brother, people who have been in @ number of your films, change in theit relationship to the eamera? Do they gain more control ofthe image, of their self presentation? ‘McElwee: Well, they're more aware of the fact that there is « ppublic who may see them on film or television, Before I released Sherman's March, | thought pethaps it would play in places like the Whitney Museum but never really imagined it would get the theatrical release it did. As a result ofits relatively wide release, there's certainly now more of a selfconsciousness amongst the people who've been in my earlier films, as well as a kind of practiced quality of knowing how you look on filyn. My sister, for instance, isa litle less casual in Time Indefinite than she ws Sherman's March. But Pm interested in examining thet tion of how much we change, how we remain the same Filming over a long period of time enables you to discover the \way patterns repeat themselves, in the sense that, despite great changes that occur in us— including a self-consciousness that might have evolved from having been ‘in the movies'— things don’t change in some primary way. This discovery is both alarming and fascinating, at least for me. The brother who ‘appears in Backyard in 1976, is still the same brother who appears in Time Indefinite in 1993, Cineaste: Time Indefinite hes been marketed as a sequel 10 Sherman's March, but it seems to fllow up more directly om everts ‘and people in Backyard and Charleen, McElwee: It’s certainly 3 continuation of what Backyard and Charleen explored, but it does seen wedded, 50 t0 speak, t0 Sherman's Marchi | think that’s undeniable, Part of the ‘marketing has been the distributor's desire to capitalize upon the success of Sherman's March. My fear is that people may expect Time Indefinite to be @ laugh a moment all the way through, and it’s not. There are certainly some very sad passages in Time Indefinite. But I think that’s also reflective of what happens as you grow older, that one can still maintain a humorous perspective on life, but life, by necessity, becomes more tinged With these packets of sadness Gineaste: What are you working on now? ‘McElwee: Tinve Indefinite was originally to have been the prolog for a longer film called Six O'Clock News, but broke off and became a separate film. !'m now resucrecting the original film which was a personal look at local news pragraniming across the country. [ take local news shows in segments of eight oF ten seconds and then with the movie camera film some sort of tion with them over a period of a couple of weeks, with ult alternating between the video clips and longer film portions. The overall film will be a sort of meditation om media and mortality, American-style. Cineaste: Ar the end of Time Indefinite, you suggest that you'll make a fil about your son Adrian as he grows up. How is that progressing? ‘McEiwwee: Pretty wel. Adrian likes to be filmed. Cineaste: Do you like being im movies, Adrian? Adrian MeEtwee: Yes. {like to talk to my mama in the film. Cineaste: Why? Adrian: ‘Cause she's good and my dad is good, so I talk to both of them. Gineaste: Is it better to talk to them in the film than it i to tlk to them when you're eating at the dinner table? Adrian: Yes. Because people throw rocks at you with yogurt on top of them. That's why it’s better to talk to Mama and Dada when you're not eating them, ‘McElwee: | guess when be says Dada, he means Dada, That's « very surieal answer, Adrian, . cINEASTE 37