PLAYBOY INTERVIEW: AREED ZAKARIA A candid conversation with one of the smartest foreign-policy minds in the U.S. about the cost of Iraq, the upcoming election and the future of America Freed Zaria hasbeen calle he Malin Cary Grant and mentioned as candidate for secre tary of state—net the wsual pase Reape on 4 jouralis. One thing i cotain: mein increasingly lyon he ataate eal nd (den rw wer es, wether hey be the Seplenber 11 terra, the essasnaton of Bonar Blom Paki othe latest inflammatory ravings of Frans Mato Alona tte ln ole cal dsoure soften miele sensational soured bie zhang and Woetating, Zahara arabs and opinions ape atone, complex, bipartisan ‘and coherent. No wonder his fons range from fon Steuart, ake rapt has “nan us” ‘przahona nC s iae Zakasia ts “intelligent abou just about every ‘ava of te wor.” Esquire need hin on ofthe 2 ma imgurtare people ofthe 2 coy. Before September 11 Zaharia was a rising stor nthe rarefied world of foreign policy, The Nation calla him the “dor Kissinger Then came the trons atcks end Zakaria’ response, a seminal Newsweek cover story called “Phe Politics of Rage: Why Do They Hate Us," a bold ertigue ofthe “dysfunc: tions" of Arab society In the piece Zakaria argued for an Ameria ard international effrt to help Islam enter the medern worl; he as rewarded with a fatwe. Since then Zakaria has become the go-to commentator om terrorism and the Middle Eas, aswell as “The shtorc of Washington i abeclutelyperni- ious—rhetrie that views the ents world as cul. Our foreign policy s tying o convert peo- le to nirvana that %, our waar beating ‘hem wp, huniticting and punishing the.” India, Pakistan, China, Russia—in fact, just ‘about every one ofthe world’s hot spat. In addition 0 his columns for Newsweek ‘and The Washington Post Zakaria will soon Inst hi own weldy hour-long show on CNN. He's also the author of books about terror, international polities, economies and global. ization, including The Future of Freedom, 2 New York Times bestseller translated into 20 languages. His latest is The Past-American World, exential reading for anyone who hopes to understand the future ofthe United States, America has a choice, Zakaria contends: ‘accept and adapt to the new paradigm —the inexorable vse of the rest of the world—or suf for economically and poiscaly, Zakaria, 44, whe lives in New York City ‘with his wife, Paula Throckmorton Zahorio, ‘and their two children, was bern in Mumbai, Tria, her his father was a scholar and pol: tician and his mother a newspaper editor. He ‘was educated in Indio before coming to the US. to attend collage at Yale, where he became ‘president of the Yale Political Union. After (graduating he earned a Ph.D. at Harvard, followed by his eppointment asthe youngest ‘managing editor in the history of Foreign Affairs magazine. Then Newsweek calle. ‘Along with his colunn ond occasional fea- ‘tures, he oversee the magazine's international ‘editions. H's a frequent guest on talk shows, including The Daily Show, and an analyst “We in the media have eulpabily, Bad news soll, We should realy think about it. We have ‘an obligation to place things in contest. The ‘ruth is we are safer than at amy other time in Jastory. Where's the nen in that?” {for ABC News, He aio hosted the Forign “Echange show on PBS TATaOYlaped Conribling Edipr Cov Sof i ttrvewed Rasen disidentand {former has chaon Cary Kaspar for ‘he nasa h Zehr Mena “Tne Zaria wl be sar" hf ports, “hut Tes seh by is racnaes. Een she tala nw or he as l-rl mane te and ls. Tha’ to sy hep ne 99s Nanay ond ot ny tes alae hws rng contenorary tues bute pus en te Aral nt all Sei rataeZlaraett § evoyohere—aih i donc tone an, asassain cn ry erly ving tng. Whar aout ray rn, Ru. $i, China or he US, he challenged we she ‘mga dosh ade ond sr, fo thin reply abd yan Fav@0% For many ofvs the ie ofa pose ‘American world is unthinkable. We're too big, oo significant the world’s only superpower Are we wrong? ‘akin I began with eae confidence Tehought America was unstoppable too, that out potion nthe work as assures But then T began noticing tings that a short time age were unimaginable. The Fichest man in the world Ives in Meso iy The ale budding ia the world in “Wed lve in a troubled word, but this isnot Armageddon. Just because a tur-bit dictator in Iran has Zome strange musings about religion doesn't mean he's going to end the ‘world as we hnoas it, Nor can he.”Sa eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee “hip and Dubalisbuding a ler build ing. The nexealle building inthe word willbe bitin Dubala yer ands baler ‘The largest fetoryin the world isin China, “The largest refinery isin nla, Iwas in Las Vegasome day and thought, At est we ave hs, Irons out we doa he largest. casino hoe inthe word now isthe Vene- tian in Macao, end Maco just overtook Las Vegas with the largest gambling revenues in the world. Shopping, America's great leisuretime seg? The las tie I asin Beiing they showed me te fargese malin the world, which has ince been clipsed by another Chinese mall. tums out the top 10 malls inthe world are al outside the United States. jus three years ago almost every ealegry I gave you would ive been topped by Aer “The change i st at has only just begun. Ie sill ue there's nly one superpower, but things are changing in every dimension Suher than the wiry. fuarao¥. Some people would srgue tat our nltary tumps cverything ee ‘zaxaua: From history we know thatifa superpower rues sol on its mlilary might it wil fal Behind: Atte end ther empire ‘heBrth were ceed by mor polial disturbances tsonghout the empire, where they could go in and sabile a station with their military strength. I's the trap of hegemony You begin to believe the ony thing that mat ters the thing you xn do beer than others and without others support I's the quick and easy puto dedine. Pavooy But the United States also sil has the world's mumber fone economy. ZAKARIA: Which isin jeopardy ifwe dont adapt to the chang. ing world, ifwe don't embrace ip instead we digin our bees tlose our borders, close ou? rinds and try to stop change PuavBox. How ate we trying to Stop changer ZAKARIA: Fir, were in denial And tere are two or tee streams feeding the denial. Weve always thought of outs selves as exceptional. We ae exceptional Bur this country wat created in rjction of the Old World. Wevere the New Hsia. We think wesillare, Buta nener works being formed, never than ours. We're aso in de> nial about goballztion, We aik about i bhucmore dan 80 percent of the US econ omy is domestic, Meanwhile, we reac. vith bsolute horror atthe prospec hat there might be Americans who speak a second language—Spanish, God forbid—as if our big problem as Ameria et ve know too many foreign languages. Also, there's very lie orig travel by Americans. Our Darochaim means we really haven't no 48 Sed things have changed. US. busines PLAYBOY i, though. f+ avery compedve world, End they ve had to hase mesa une Sites get it to. Students are coming fra everywhere, and research is being done everywhere: The place they dont gett ‘Wthingion, DG Whe hecrict Washing tons abeotly pernicious rhetoric tha ‘ews the ouside world as erin Washing- tan ts al chestpunpig machistoo. Our foreign policy is ying ro conver: people srvans™hat sour way ~orbeang therm ‘up, hunting snd pursing them. The idea oftalking to them idole, There’ noothercounty inthe wrld where tly topeople—j dking oder sega astreasnous, Asa rel we know nothing about these places in che word hat are ie ing and becoming vibrant and powerful ely wancnoevel, you oe) Bech chet tent offen We lk incesanly about iran, and Bush demonize countcy But we now noth ing about Tren, and the ad doesn even want ota ofan PayBO%. So you evar talking ta rogue ration like Tran? Zavata: OF course. Iran i a very com plex country with a very complex cule fre. Unless we tlk to them, how wll we -now who they are? We don't even kaon anything about Cuba, though ts only 80 miles from Florida. For four decadet we've had a fantay chat we were achiey lng regime change in Cuba, meanwhile Fidel Casto, unt very recent was the longest-serving polities! leader in the worl. You'd thnk those fs woul be prima facie evidence cur policy hasn't worked, but we don't go back and look Ws uninkable we would learn fom any: ane elie Instead they ar alba and we are good. Everyone out to gts FuavB0W Do you deny there are dangers that justify eaudon? Zaxanin: OF courte aot, but they're blown way out of proportion, and we inthe media have culpability here: Bad ‘ews sells. We sy this bthely. We say ft tnd kind of titer, ut we should realy think about it We have an ebigation to place things in coatext. The tthe fre safer than at any other ime in his tory Where’ the evs in that ptavaow Safer? With Al Qaeda and simi lar terrors group sill Urestening us? ziwaaia: Al Qneia has been very suc- cessfully defanged. Every gov. ernment in the world reac itvasa problem, and now is onthe run. Puaynoy You charge that, ince Septeraber 11, 2001, Al Queds has basically been s producer of bad videos. But what about the bombings in Madrid and London? What about suicide bombings throughout the Middle East? ZMARIA: Every motley crew tall self Al Qaeda bu has no operational or nancial links {0 the out that directed 91 and the embassy bombings. Since 0/11 Osan bia Laden has done nothing except ue Atreats in videoe Puawaow Are you denying the thea of terrorism? Zaeain: 1 fundamentally important that we recogni ter rortim and Islamic exemisn as Feal problems, but we must put them in context We've told the ‘Arab world iy outta get us, but its small fnge, Pols in crery Musi ocey show est people reel the menage of exten ad fundamenism, Do they reject it lou enough? Maybe insome cles they don't and ve should push them to. The Ta ban is npopula. Al Qaeda is unpopul The ies of jad unpopular Yer were consandy gen the messoge that they'e all out get ue, which of ours in some weed way doing rama in Lad’ bidding, eding the mesage of Al Qneda and giving t more power than deere Puaybow low about Iran? Do you agree that Ahmadinejad ands nudear fran area {ZaAHA: On one ocision Ahmadinejad Said he wanted to wpe Isl of he a ‘There'ssome debitesboutwhatheattaly said butleteatume hes it Isa horn Bie thing to say and absolutly deserves o becondemned, bust it worth our pent ing out thatin the 197Ds every Arab ender Toul sud hs? Thebigsiina 50-or 40-year perspective i that he's the onlya guy in the Middle Bast saying it now. The ‘Arabs—the Egyptians, dhe Syrians —have all moved to arelucrant acceptance of the realty of rae. Now it the big story but ot what we ofien report. The poll I've Seen sugges there i dotrbiagly large numberof people who thin Iran core Security threat that should be deat with by military force Why? The press keeps tying Word Wir II wil take place f the Tanne get the epaciy to make nuclear vweapons, Bush does Americans are bas tally optimistic open minded peopl, but the pres and poldcians have this amazing 28g comin people wee ing in a dangerous world and there ae people out there uying tl us It used tobe the crazies—the Joe McCarthys of the world— who were wing to convince you nuclear [Armageddon was approaching, Now the people doingit are im high office Puataot Tet because they believe it, or tre they manipulating the public? Zacamia Tve never meta politcan who isunaware of the elec of his thetorc on his poll ratings. Politicians are aware that when they tak up this rhetorie ft makes cope think i berter to have tongh, Frawkish people in charge, We do live 2 troubled world, but this is not Arma. geddon, ust because a two-bit dictator iran fas some srange musings sbow religion doesn't mean he's ging to end the world as we know it. Nor ca he. pavaoy: Buti scems dangerous to mini- toi the threat af terrariam, ~zacanis: There'salvays going tobe what I {all mom-and-pop terrors: I's unforts nate, What could derallus however isthe Inrge-scale weapons of mats destruction (ype of terrorism nuclear terrorism, Is 2 eal problem, and we should be adres ingit more energctialy than we are. The administration has pute nuclear pro- Heaton sae in front tarot What woutd be a more rational Srategy on terrorism? Zakaihs We should certainly be tracing these groups, racking their funds, doing everything we canto obstruct and intere Cept then We should also make a much more active effort to engage this struggle cultural, politcal and economic levels to make dee sodedes understand that ‘we share their aspirations for modernity. We want to partner with them. We sce cour future sebeing inked with thers, We ‘Shouldn't convey that we think Islam ieche enemy. Look 13 blion Muslims were realy ying to revoltagsinst the West you ‘would hear about ita ft more ofen then the occasional cafe bomb in tan. uavaox: What about iran? What would bea rational approach there? Zaki We have to come to terms with the fr that ram i en county and at legiimate security concerns. Look athe naghborhood: You have a nuckar India, 3 ‘nudearPakisan nudear China nuclear Rusia and a nvclear Israel. The United States has 150,000 troops on one Iranian border and 80000 U.S and NATO troops Cie Copiers ts icone Ceo Ee CoraAe Cine ths We’re Number..Huh? Fareed Zakaria’s book The Post-American World predicts @ future in which ihe United States fs no longer the wrla’s sole superpower. And weve lost some lop spots already. Hore are 10 creas where we used fo be number ‘one and who's there now.--Bon Conn at ean os Day eon) eet as Cer) oud one coi ocr Cire c meter) (eoieceoe ko Geena areon the other border: You have an Amer- ican president who keeps saying this is an cevil regime that has to be changed. fran is ‘ot just being paranoid. If you were in that siwation, you would buy some insurance, and in the world of international relations ‘nudear weapons are insurance PLaysoy: But doesn't a nuclear Iran concern you? ‘zaxawin: If you want Tran to denuclear- ize, you must recognize that it wll need ‘some assurances relating to security. The first step would be having a dialogue Barack Obama said he would talk to them, and he was vilified, called naive, bbut you want to talk to these people. PLEO The counterargument is that they want to kill us and that talking to people like Ahmadinejad is irresponsible as well as useless, ZAKARIA: And it would be rewarding them. To which I say, “Look, we don't actually know much about them.” Some people around the world have heard alot ‘of things George Bush has said and think he's crazy to. I would say to them, "Meet him, Find owt.” The reality is that Iran is ‘2 serious country, No matter who goveras it, ran has security concerns. The nuclear program was started by the shah of Iran, not the mullahs. Negodating with them does not mean they won't be very tough. Remember that the best thing for Cas tuo, the Tranian hard-liners and so many others has been to have the United States 2 their enemy. We ply into their hands Ifwe were eo take a more sensible view of Iran and North Korea, to name to, we ‘would recognize that time ison our side, tot theirs We in the moder word have the answers: they don ran has totaly ‘yafuncional economy The government is particularly popular Isnt areipe for longierm success Paveot You aigue for engagement, bt doesn't China daprove that engagement leads to regime change and democracy? aie We sate aking o Chia st che iight ofthe Cultural RevoluGon, when Mao, probably certified lunatic, was run: ing the county int the ground! es i fcuk to deseribe how cataysmscally bad and antimedern revoluonary China was From tere we've ended up witha China that is peaceful cresingly prosperous Snd modernising. There’ 4 ule of law Band the county & deling with environ ‘ental incding global warming. Pavoor But China has no religious free. ome and xs ofthe government re routinely locked up. ZEARARIA: The Chinese haven't moved “ilthe way, but compared with 1978? In 1973 anyone who wid you China would be where is today would have been accused of smoking dope. We move the foalpote when we ay “But theyre nots fulliberal democracy yet" Yes, but here iemore opennest than fou would believe Ifyou want tobe an entrepreneur and‘own things, you can, Ifyou want to sue the government in court, you can. PLavBov: What about Russia? Do you agree i's actually backsliding in its prog ress toward democracy? ZaKamia: Putin has struggled with consti- tutional isues relating to whether oF not he can keep his position, In the old days it would have been easy. "What consti- tution? Z am the constitution." I regard that as progress. PLayBor: But isn'ta false sense of prog- ress? Ina recent Playboy Interviews oppo- sition leader Garry Kasparov charged that Putin has acted as unilaterally as the Communist leaders. ‘Zakaa: I's 2 fair point, but Russa isn't Just richer, its feger ina hundred dif. ferent ways. But jes, in five years there thas been regression. Pakistanis similar. “Twenty years ago it was basically a failed state going toward jihadist status, PLaysor: In Pakistan what will be the long-term impact of Benazir Bhutto's PLAYBOY Zayaia Tn old way ic doesn't change things as muchas if she fad lived. She had the potensal t change the politcal diynamiclin Pakistan beesse she was the nly rly national gure who was popu lar modern and antifunéamentais: She vasa plausble erative co mitary rule Palisa will probably muddle through, but noding wil fundamentally change payaox: How about next door in leag? Initaly you supported the war. At what point did you change your postions Zaynins One week afer the invasion | ‘wrote a column saying the occupation vas going badly. {called for a much Terger trop level and UN occupation rawuow Like Hliry Cinton and others do You rogre our ina suppor ofthe wate Zacasi: Tail believe te Hea of erest- ing a moder and democratic Iraq was 8 00d one, and Saddam Push’ incred- ibly brutal and tyrannical regime pro- Yided annul opportunity fo dos. Believe we went sbout tin a caastrophic ‘vay diatincured enormous costs, So put tne down as somebody who sil betres it was a good idea but was very badly implemented. The roa! to hel fered With good intentions: Perhaps ny mistake vas noe realising the Bash administration would be as arrogant and stupid ae they Were. I thought they would want vo suc. eed. There was legal framework to go in. Tnever bought the WMD rationale, Duc dere were the 16 UN resolutions. Ic wat arare opportunity oget i of an ev Gictator, modetae the region and doit ins completely legate sanctioned nay thac the international community would sign on vo. What would is have required? ‘Wang three months so te French were onboard? Athe dae, Indian ofl tld te the US. fad waited and not gon in Unloterally] they would have sent oops India had sent thera, Pakistan would have cent them, probebly Bangladesh 4 well. But the succest of Alghanistan turned the Bush administration's head and made them power crazy. It made them want co do ical by themselves, and it completely ruined us nationally. PuxvBor: Is Iraq hopeless? zawanan: If 10 years from now Iraq turns out to be a modern and democratic state, it will make a big difference in the Middle East. Will the price have heen worth it? 1 don't know. The cost has been unconscio- nable for the United States. But I peri in believing that opening up the Middle East to be more modern and moderate—more democratic—is a crucial part ofthe answer, PLAYBOW Some critics ofthe Iraq war say ‘America is creating a new generation of suicide bombers and terrorists through: (out the region. Are we? ‘Zawawia: [think that's exaggerated. I don't think we're creating a new generation of them, but neither are we doing enough to sop the existing trends of radicalization. PLAYDOK How could wer zaxanin; It’s. very powerful thing to want togive up your own fe, to kill yourself for a cause. We need to be a litle bit humble about understanding that we're not the ‘cause of all the things that go on in the I still believe the idea of creating a modern and democratic Iraq was a good one. I believe we went about it in a catastrophic way that incurred enormous costs. world. This is an internally generated dysfunction, but we could be part of the solution. They all think the United States is out to get them, They all think we're try- ing to wage war on them, on Islam. Atthe very least we shoukd ask, Why do people think this way, and what can be dante? The vast majority of people in these societies want modernity. OF course they want it with a certain kind of eulearal digniey, but that's true everywhere, and i's particularly true in the broken cultures of the Arab world. That means there is going to be a certain anger and rage about the West- cemization of the world. At the end of the day, though, they don’t want the Taliban, ‘They don't want Islamic fundamentalism, ‘They're searching for some in-between path. Meanwhile, Islamic terrorism is a lethal problem being perpetrated by a small virulent minority. The majority is not in any way supporting it. They are victims of i; they are the ones who die in the cafes, Al Qaeda in Iraq has killed many ‘more Iragis than Americans PuayBot Is much ofthe anti-American senti- ‘ment throughout the world based on a fear that oor culture will overwhelm thers? aan: Bus Sed thi, utes going to bea cultural coca, a nrange mine ture of West Est, old and new lot of ‘se people describe as Ameranizaton Bacay thereof masseltare Becse ‘Ameres por there fstour compan ‘ur product, our ways oflvng--Amenea fas ecome partof wha people think cst sass culture, butte move Compl than thac The Chinese are now going o Vegas Sle casinos but these poole hast Seen ‘Stung at home in their Courtyard, reading Conicins. They were poor rllagers whe were bercly surviving. Now they have ate Usbitofmoney, so they goto McDonal’s Mass culture and Atmeiea clare ve been fined, ut what seal ngs mass Culture Some oft has overones fA Salam, bt in lo of places has oc ‘aviatioas and lorl cena, The future all sbone fusion, evn in Ameren New ork already lof shi resturant 7 enone the largest casino i the word {Gran Amescan caine but in Macao that Tooks like St Mark's Squate in Venice, which is deeply inflaeneed by Tan nd Moorh car. Tats the lea ok tao the new wor Fuavaor: Voor ne book about Ameri Gisplacein tienew world, Bottom fines ‘Aree in trouble? Bo you pred the falofAmerea? zxcasins No, We wil ill be a powerful Country, but evil be a diferent word Other counties are rowing fstr an veesr, 0 3¢afendanenal evel here wll bearelatve decime Were sll brant Weve sll wa. We al vetain 2 cents role in every game we're plying. But China growing a 10 perce an were rowing thre, Ia 10 years Chine vill Fave a sight Inger share of the gldal GDP than we do, We haves grest hand, burt we Bae to nv how to pay muaroor Esa whats ou great han? Zavaain We have this raring quay of Sill being hungry and energy which comes from our openness Dut ifwe ge oursehes ovr to ean ne move in exely the opposite drecon, We close the very doort that have kept us vibrant What has worked for Americ that we tke in the bow ideas andthe best people, mic them all up and iavent the ftwre Ths Fs threatened by fermongering on both tides ofthe poi spectum, Se ses, them mentality, protectionism and those ‘eho would soleus rather dun have us eaibrace snd collsborate with and Tearn fom one anther ruaveor Ar we spea there seem to be Uhree serous contenders for president John Mecain, Barack Obama ana Hilary Clinton Who would make thetbes pres dentin the em worle you describe zatains | think he Republics have sone ery fankly though John McCain the one 1 admire mest He's quite Old, though, and seems heavily Su. tnced by neoconservative writings oo foreign policy, which gives me pave ‘The Republicans im geval do ie butj scaremongering on almost every iene from terrorism to innigraton, Funvoor How about the Democrats? avaaik ily Clinton ian pressive person, but ifs tough fo fee! as though She's speaking fom the bear. es pu ding to ty to determine what she realy betieves in? admice er but cat say 7 amin love with her polticaly muavaor she ges tne nomination, wl you support hers actA suppose o, bocaute the Repub- ean Party gone insane on national Security nse tn general and needs to Fave a kind of netvous breskdowa lke the one the Democratic Fay had-and ‘maybeneeded-13 earsago, The Repub leans have fom thelr exenial moornge and morphed into a pary whose heart seems focused eaiely on rigion. hyper tational anda Kind of enophob hat whacit elves in so ello cone dered tobe amino party forthe next gencration. So would suppor Clinton, Sct am hoping Barack Otasa wins ‘ravbor What do you like sbout Obama? Zanana: We need wo rakebrond changes, and Obama represents this We nee! 2 Break from the pass Has boon a breath offic air because he has ben willing to Took atthe world sn sy in elf, "Why does every problem have to bea ail just because we nave a big mitary hammer? Why shoulda webe ting o these po ple? T think he's right about every eve he's been erkcned on, We ould eae ing tothe Iranians and North Koreans justas we did withthe Libyans, Chinese Viecnamese and Soviet, He proposed something that didn't get much tacion, Bathe sid we shoul ook st relacng the embargo on Cuba. Clinton comes ott in ‘ppeiion to She does want to lose ihe Miami and New Jersey Cubans, bu stat nthe point of tering somebody ‘showon' change cven an cowl fed policy ike that for fear that more tan an Incremental shifts polly sky? uavooy Tn the pase tere has been tlk that you could be secretary of ate, Well Ifthe nest president call _n¥aas He or she ist going o cll Paveom [fic did happent Zaxania: People who have speculated dont understal he process. Poy dont nderstand the enonmovs weight foyalty has in these sitions, 1 cant be on & team; is the nature of ny profession Thave t be independent. | pis people off onal des. Part of my job ie otto be pardsan. [eal things i ace ther, which dlsqualies me for pots Maybe Thm Kidding myself, butT think T ean da more onthe outsice, a est when comes to shaping the agenda btaveow You stared out in journalism at Fireign Aes magazine. Would you have apply stayed in that elite nord of ntl Jectal journalism, or were you destined forthe mainstream? ava When Tnene 1 Regn Afr 1 50 sil ee was beng ruc to my acer PLAYBOY roots. Something like Newsweek would have been unimaginable. punrBor: What changed? zaKazin: Once I got o New York I started ‘writing a lot for The Now York Times and The New Republic, When Newsweek called and asked me to wri a monthly column, T thought, What the hell? I discovered I enjoy writing fora much broader audience, never enjoyed the parlor game ofintllec: tual mame-dropping and long, meandering [New Ynk Review of Books pieces in which you try to impress everybody with your erudi- tion. I simply wanted to communicate about issues because they were important. ‘Then Neasweek asked if wanted to turn it into a weekly column and edit an imernae tional edition. It was a big shift. Teas giv- Uup any pretense of the world of elite ‘brow journalist. I enjoy doing what isn't supposed to be possible. In Newsorek for on the new CNN show talk about inter- national isues Americans supposedly have no interest in. The CNN show, for exam- ple, will be about the other 95 percent of humanity, Think about the last time you saw something on Indi or Braail or Sou Africa. But since §/11 Americans have I’m Muslim and my wife is Episcopalian, but neither of us is particularly religious or observant. I can’t fake it. I can’t make my children do things I'm not doing. cared. They understand that what hap- ‘pens in other places in the world affects us. If Pakistan is filing and eareering out of contro, we no longer have to explain why Americans should be interested. Not long ‘ago most Americans couldn't have found Afghanistan on a map. But you could start atthe top. Remember when Bush was cam- paigning for office? He was given a quizon the radio. He coulda't answer "Who isthe president of Pakistan?" and “What is the Taliban?” Two years later he knew a hell of a lotabout both of those. Piareor: You once described yourself asa Reagan conservative, What changed? ‘zawanin: T came to America in the early 1980s from a socialistic country. T knew central planning didn’t work. Reagan's spirited defense of the free world and spirited anti-Communism attracted me. But then Clinton was exactly the kind of responsible pro-market politcan who appealed to me ecause he was also com passionate, wanting to make sure issues of distribution and access for poor people ‘were not neglected. He was pro trade, but Ihe was also for a safery net. Ie was a com- bination I liked. Meanwhile, the Repul cans went mad during the Clinton years ‘het atals oni were insane. vas thought part of their rage was tha he sto their best issues from them and left thera with all the ugly stuf It was around that point that Ino longer considered myself Conservative. In many ways the postions 1 held were and are pretty much the same, ‘but the political spectrum has shifted. The Republicans moved tight; on the crucial issues of economics the Democratic Party ‘moved to the center. PLayBo¥: Were your politics formed when you were a child in India? ‘zavastn: The India I greve up in was almost a different country from the India of today {twas very much an overwhelmingly poor country. My father was.a politician and his constituency was outside Bombay, so we spent a fair amount of tine in rural Indi, T saw the poverty up close, The other informative aspect ofthe India I grew up in was the fact that twas only a generation away from independence. My father had been involved in that struggle, and it was very much a part of his life, As a result ‘was part of the family’s life. His cause his whole life in polities was amicable relations between Hindusand Muslims. He was one of the best-known proponents ofa kind af liberal interpretation of Islam—a toler- ant attitude on both sides. Meanwhile, my mother was. journalist and became editor ‘of the Sunday Timer of India plavaoy: Was your family religious? zawaRia: My parents were observant Muslims buc secular. They believed strongly in a multicultural and multi- religious society. I grev up fasting during the month of Ramadan, but we also cel- ebrated Hindu holidays and Christmas My uncle would play Santa Claus, pu on a beard and ho ho ha. India was trying to be this pluralistic model, so you had to embrace every religion, every culture, PLaYBo¥: How are you and your wife rais- ing your children? ‘zach: They're aware oftheir heritage, and we talk about it. They ask questions T'm Muslim and my wife is Episcopalian, but neither of us is parsicularly religious ‘or observant. I can't fake it. I can't make my children do things I'm not doing. I'm laying to give them enough ofa sense oft, an awareness, so when they're old enough they can make their own decisions, PLAYBOY. Were politics discussed at the din- ner table when you were groving up? ‘zaxasaa: Our house was very rach alive ‘with politics and history. Also, my parents hhad lots of friends who were poets, archi- tects, writers. That all infuenced me, plus iy futher believed every common prob- lem could be solved by the government. He spent a lot of his life founding and building educational establishments —col- leges, schools and training centers—that are sill in existence. Long before it was fashionable my father saw that India’s sgreat advantage was its human capital, and the key was geting poor kids into schools and colleges. There was always‘an emphasis on doing something about a problem. My father passed sway, but my ‘mother now runs the schools PLaYBO¥: Your current jobs area blend of your father’s polities and your mother's Journalism. Di their example? ZAKARIA: I had no sense of that kind of purpose, but I was fascinated by history ‘and politics rom the start because I had this amazing front seat at Indian politics alts finest and somesimes its worst. Taw the idealism but also the duplicity, decep- tion and corruption up dose. My father hhad to deal with ital PlavBo¥: What did you think of America ‘zawawia: India was technically pro-So\ during the ping-pong of the Cold War, Dut every Indian T knew was fascinated by ‘America. Iwas, There was 2 government engineered anti-Americanism, but it never worked. The government used to have these Indo-Sovier friendship fes- tivals where it would show Sovier films, and nobody would go. Meanwhile, the American cultural center was flooded with people. American universities were flooded with applications. Indians wanted ‘modernity, and they wanted the American dream. I's sill true today. puayaoy: Whereas in many parts of the world there is an anti-American preju- dice, particularly since the invasion of Trag, Is it diferent in India? you set out to follow _zacasta: Yes. The polls show it- India is probably the most pro-American country in the world, with the exception of Israel Jina 2005 Pew survey 71 percent of Indi- ‘ans had a favorable impression of Amer- ica; the only country with beter numbers ‘was the United States. Americans have ‘2 more favorable impression of America than Indians do, but not by much. PLAYBoX When you arrived at Yale, what ‘was your inital impression of America? Zaania: I felt it was a strange Kind of homecoming. [felt so comfortable, Partly it was Yale itself. At home 1 was an odd- ball. I'd read Dickens for pleasure. At Yale there were actually other people like me. Plus I just found America so inviting. PLaysor Did you plan to return to India after college? ‘avant Yes, but I fell in love with Amer- ica. I got involved in its foreign policy and politics and American society. T made fiends. Toward the end of Yale 1 thought, T wonder if Tl ever go back uarao¥ Did you meet your wife at Yale? ZAKARIA: I met her on a blind double date. It was 14 years ago this past Val fentine’s Day. uavsor: Did you ever imagine you would Ihave an arranged marriage? ‘ZaKagIA: My parents didn't have one, so it would have been very odd to suggest PLAYBOY: You have two children. ‘ZAKARIA: And my wife is pregnant. PLAYBOW. How has being a father influ enced you? zaKagit: Being 2 father has been the most pleasurable aspect of my life. Weirdly, ‘was psychologically prepared fort T think being married is a bigger challenge. Its that ability to create an equal partnership and an honest partnership. Ir rewarding. work, but i's work. Parenthood, though, comes easily to me. I find ic physically ‘exhausting sometimes, but P'm thrid. PLaveoy: What led to your job at For sign Affairs? zawamia: After Vale I went to Harvard 10 get Ph.D. in political science without a real sense of what I was going todo, [For- mer editor of Tine and ex-CEO of CNN] Walter Isaacson, whom I'd metat Harvard, called me up one day and said there was a job—the managing editorship—at For- ign Affairs. 1 wasn't interested. I chought Tmight be in line for a job at Harvard, Bur then I went home and thought, Why am I doing this? I never really wanted to bea profesor. The Foreign Affairs thing sounded much more interesting, so 1 tossed my hat inthe ring, ptavBox Few journalists are discussed the ‘way you are: handsome, with references to Cary Grant. Is it fatvering, embarrass- ing or appalling? ZAKARIA: I don't quite understand it. I've certainly never thought of myself LN iM Lea Te ey on iD) MOVIE MONEY * TO SEE IT IN THEATERS oe een LD & KUMAR ESCAPE FROM GUARTANARO BAY IN THEATERS 4/25in those term. 1 grew up a8 a prety dveecby-looking Mid. But Took, while Tim not trying to become a celebrity, 1 realize that soletites some element of that comes with the territory, especially when you're on television. Sometimes there'¢an invasion of privacy haven't Signed up for dhs. I'm aot ying to be 2 movie sta, but I suppose that isthe world we live in Puarnon Di you make a conscious deci Sion to become an analyst and commmen- tator rather than a reporter? Zaxasins That wae choice. new where tny strenght ay. Twas wot a reporter 1 ‘ane ou ofan aac arkgrvin and tay strengths were more analyte, hisor- fea Teould place things in contexa: Punvaon At Newrk, after 9/11, you ‘roe the famous "Polis of Rage: Why Do They Hate Us pice: Were you a prised by the intense reaction? Zavaia’ I wat a highly vlan, so Sot really. There was one reacion from the Pat Robertson swing of the debate, people who wanted see the situation as Biack-and.hite, nim evi 1 got some nasty staff. T also got some nasty sai? from fundamentalist Muslims becaute I Duta loof emphasis on the dysnctions Bf the Muslim world and te use there ‘ot religion for politcal reasone—shat i, Using religion to mask politcal lure. A preacher in one ofthe London inosques ‘sued a fata agains me. uarno%: Were you fear fl? ZAKARIA Til Tyas ile seared but also Kind of proud until a friend of mine inthe ClAszd,Donttbe happy: They issue these every day" Nonetheles twas taken seriounly enough that we had to have some consultation withthe FBI For 2 while my mail was pue in Tuppervare Containers so people wouldn't have to Hane fe—chings like that In ahe Arab World I sil thiak a certain eginent of the intelligentsia fels I betrayed thes. Puavaor: How much of tat reaction is related to your Indian heritage? Zanes Whenever I write something an Indian ora Muslin docan ike, on some blog somewhere I'l be described asm Undle om. There's a weird standard by which your views have tobe ential t0 What is perceived as the proper ethnic ew on any given subject Puaraor Tent there pride among Indi- Zawaias Thats probably the dominant view. Tn Talia, sieceeding in America is Celebrated in an womiigated fashion. 1 think the fac that T have some promi- rence in the world of journalisin is a souree of pride for Indi, there's reo prociy beesuse Tam proud of my her tage, and I think ie ves me a unique perspective on the changing worl Pawson this changing world, you Ihave deseribed two possible paths for America: increased navonalism and is 52 Iaonism, or openness and an embrace PLaypoy of change. Obviously you are pushing for the latter, but which is more likety? zaxania: I'm not sure. None of the big issues, like global warming, interna: tional trade or terrorism, can be solved by one country. I's difficult ro get every- body onboard because there are more and more players, and they're more and more powerful, but the need for coop: cration is the need of our time. The United States could play a historic role as the coordinator of and catalyst for cooperative endeavors. The fundamen. tal issue is whether the United States hhas the desire to create common ground and can place common interests above the desire to be in control. We can't say, “We want to make all these rules, and of course they won't apply co us because we're special.” That no longer works in 1a world where everyone feels special So it's an enormous challenge. In some ways it requires a dramatic reversal of ‘our worldview, but Tam optimistic. I'm an optimist by nature. PLAYBOY: Given human nature and his tory, including the history of other superpowers like the British empire In the Arab world a certain segment of the intelligentsia ‘feels I betrayed them. When- ever I write something a Muslim doesn’t like, IU be described as an Uncle Tom. and the Soviet Union, how do you justly your optimism? Zakaria: For the past 20 or 30 years, while everybody's been gloomy, pessi- mistic and expecting the world to end— whether through nuclear Armageddon ‘oF terrorisin or the collapse ofthe world trading system—what has actually hap- pened? The opposite. We're doing all right. There are enormous problems, of course, but we're doing all right. IF wwe recognize that, everywhere, human beings are trying to raise their standard of living and live in peace and prosper- ity, there’s a powerful wave to ride. If governments align themselves wih that common human aspiration, there's a hopeful place to begin PLAYBOY: But are you optimistic that governments can align like that in an environment of competition, limited resources and excremists? zakaria: Governments have a capac: ity to make corrections and to change. We've seen governments like the Soviet Union collapse. We've seen governments like India’s move 180 degrees. Can the United States engage in a similar kind of change? I's very dificult because i's the most succes country in the his tory of the world In busines successful companies often die beemuse they cat't change—they have too much invested it the way things have been, But there are taany other examples of companies that change. Americ can change. uxraor Wil it take aerisit ZAKARIA: That's the million-dollar ques- fon. Can the United States_-cay the \world-—make the adjustments tat need to be made because we know war's coming, or wil tke a eri? It ahes A criss it may be too Inte. Buta famous cconomist once said, "Unsustainable trends tend not to be sustained." If we un ott of wheat, ifwe un out of pot ble wate, it we run out of oil—it these things happen, well have to adjust. The danger for the United States is that those shocks will probably take place outside the United States rst We're too powerful oo strong. We may keep pretending we don't have to adjut, tht tere too powerful and too strong tobe Mleced. So whats more ely a much slower version of the British empire: a Kind ot slow and gradual shift in post sion that isn't ax noticable tous. I don't {hank that's where we're going to end up, though. T think America fs differ- ent. have to believe that. 1 have to Believe this country has a kind of ex. Silty and adaptabiy. America wants to invent the fatare. It doesn't want to be trapped inthe pase Ameria wants move forward, America does noc want to occupy Trag where we've suck. Tve talked vo many ofthe kids on the ground there. This isnot the old Brish soldiers lording it over and loving This isa country that doesnt take pleasure in those satisfations. It takes pleasure in the two-car gorage and the iPod. These Lids want to get bac to their erat home in Kansas. think there isa fundamen tal healthiness to that perspective, and it has the potential to Keep the country sane and hot lett fl ingo the Lind of historical trap every other great power as fallen int. fee taraoye How do you see your ongo- ing role? Zann: [ feel I'm the immigrant who grew up outside this country but tell ‘Americans tobe ue to themselves: Be open, dont be scared. Remember what made you great the fact chat America i an open, big. generous place where the firare could be invented. Arnenies needs only o continue to be wiling to be bold land brave. When you hear candidates Say they're going to double the size of Guantdnamo, you think to yoursell They don't get ke This is not just about a prion: it about who we are ia the jet ofthe world and in our own eyes Remember who we are: We are about epenness, hope and the future