Professional Documents
Culture Documents
GHENT
COSMOPOLITAN, Alfred
on
§§º
the interesting argument the question
of
Henry Lewis, W. J. Ghent our social discontent, its cause and its
\ and David Graham Phillips Cure.
* met at luncheon
At
the three-cornered
ºff
the Hotel Astor, New York, interview, Mr. Ghent was asked his
in
if
º,
the
º%)
the restive state of the masses.
in
“I
he
most optimistic
of
day philosophers. The gentlemen represent Alfred Russell Wallace. He says that
ed
the author of “Benevolent Feudalism” and by the fact that while fifty years there
in
to
to
the workers
is
a
a
of
reform
as a
nature and Mr. Lewis not only an au ever. According Frederic Harrison,
thor but as strenuous individualist. ninety per cent.
of
Each these gentlemen was prepared call their own beyond the end
to
in of
home
urge radical manner the principles the week. They are doomed con
to
to
of
a
603
6O4 Cosmopolitan Magazine
of
Do you think the rich
clothing are simply not obtainable. This are contented
P
condition has been particularly evidenced GHENT: know all. But
at
don’t
I
during the last ten years in Germany,
of of be
of
their kind discontent would not the
France and England, and to a certain extent sort we mean when we are speaking the
in America. It is due in great part to the the poor.
It
of
discontent that the
is
expansion of factory production, poor man living the margin
at
of
the existence.
dislodging of the country people and the LEWIS: Don't you know that there are
forcing The rich men living the margin
at
of them into the towns.
of
thousands
newcomers gravitate to the meanest, the walking
of
existence? Because man
is
a
most squalid quarters, like our East Side down Fifth Avenue, well dressed, and well
here, and there have to battle for jobs with fed, does that mean that
he
contented
is
a
those already on the ground. It is shown man? Also, you speak
of
the starvation
that in London, year after year, one person the East Side;
on
and the sickness have
I
out of every four dies in an almshouse or gone through the East Side many times,
hospital, or on some form of public charity.” the children.
of
and looked into the faces
“How about this country?” asked Mr. They were healthy, happy-looking chil
Phillips. dren; they didn’t seem dis
be
or
to
sick
“Well,” said Mr. Ghent, “Mr. Hunter contented or starved.
GHENT: Your observation the street
in
and others. have attempted to show the
extent of poverty among us. Out of the would not be worth as much as that of
little statistical material available Mr. hospital doctor who has seen them when
a
no
shows that there are ten million persons LEWIS: I've doc
in
in America who are constantly living at tors or their observations. have seen
by I
or below the bare margin of normal exist perfectly healthy men killed doctors.
ence. Shortly after the appearance personal im
of
of GHENT: No number
up
Mr. Hunter's work there came up a ques pressions can stand against the figures
hospital
an
of
the records
a
children in New York city. Mr. Hunter which receives poor patients. go
LEwis:
us
D. to
back
of these. The statement was denied up tented man. Take John Rockefeller.
and down by hundreds of persons. He discontented man. He hasn’t
he is
Since
a
shown that Mr. Hunter probably spoke The fact can’t find contented man
a
I
you think
of
I
by
they are going to beat the game.” cialism hampered the term. You
is
PHILLIPs: You really think then that try cover too many eggs
to
at
once.
is
It
GHENT: Not only among the workers, for the individual do some things.
to
be
but among the middle class as well. The Speaking socialism, axio
to
of
take
it
I
point, but
its
is is
it it
an
such trinkets
on
to
of
The Day of Discontent 605
of
mulators the demands.
ment does ever pays. That, however,
so
The revolt against existing conditions,
in
far as cer
at
is not a proper argument. conscious and directed
is
it
a
GHENT: To what do you attribute the tain goal, remains working-class move
a
different political uprisings of late years? for
its
ment, even though philosophy
is
LEwis: To the wolf in the man. A
by
mulated and expressed men from
man is selfish. Also he is destructive as another class. These men come into the
a matter of instinct. working class and accept
its
instinctive
GHENT: nearly every year,
We have attitude as that of their own.
whether or not there is any unusual suf
as
PHILLIPs: But think programme
a
I
fering on the part of a section of the public, at
an
to as
precise the socialist programme
no is
a political uprising. We had a People's tempt prophesy. And I've great
party in 1892 which polled over a million faith prophecy, especially politics.
in
in
votes, and in 1894 nearly two million
so
GHENT: Not more predict
to
than
In 1896 we had something like general terms the overthrow the capi
of
votes.
in
six and a half million persons who voted production and the installa
of
talist mode
for a radical candidate for President. coöperative production. There
of
tion
Last year the Socialistic candidate, Debs, no scientific socialist the world who
in
...
is
polled more than four hundred thousand will attempt give you more than guesses
to
votes. What could these instances mean
no
He can tell you
of
at
the details. more
follow than Wash
to
of
other than a vote of discontent against the details what
is
existing conditions? ington Franklin could have told
or
at
the
PHILLIPs: The reason the farmers raised the American Revolution.
of
outbreak
the uproar in 1892—when they elected LEWIS: Our Revolution worked no tre
Cleveland, and again in 1896—when, in mendous change, beyond providing for
my opinion, Bryan was elected—the reason self-government. We have got Senate and
a
for the farmer revolt appeared in the enor they England House Lords, and they
a of
in
a
mous number of farm mortgages. It is have king, we have president. Our
a
not among the very poor that you now president has forty times
as
much power
find, or will find in history, the discontent don't see anything
as
their king. I
that makes itself effective. The French very democratic this government.
in
Revolution was started, was directed, was there were, the workingman could not
be If
to
as
carried classes. one whom we
About being cheerful—a tramp is more “always respect and avoid.”
or less cheerful; he is sinking down into PHILLIPs: don’t think that whether
I
the mire comfortably and cheerfully. I man will or will not associate with me
a
ever stronger
of
standards
sense that the division property isn't ditions would we have the socialists were
of
if
refuses believe
in
It
in
the masses having work for what they staggers the imagination
of
GHENT:
to
It
The sense
to
the difference.
a
enough without work. For, you can't security every person from haunting
of
of
fear
lawyers Swindling—no better human character. There would
of
work. kind
swindling the frightful
be
work.
of
literal starvation
If
definite elimination
is
In on
massacre
plutocracy might Our discon peace.
of
tent the
is
died
between mankind and anarchy. ness; and we look upon this slaying with
GHENT: The intellectual leaders you horror. But we have fatal-accident
a
of,
speak Mr. Phillips, are simply the for American industries every year
of
list
in
Joff Cosmopolitan Magazine
somewhere between sixty-five and eighty personal dignity, the rights man,
of
of
is
thousand. The railroads and trolleys alone the force that will prevent the coming
kill about 12,500 and injure about 150,000 again
of
the conditions into which the
yearly. There is furthermore, under pres happy serfs the feudal age fell soon after
of
ent conditions, a terrible mortality from Mr. Rogers’s “golden age.”
unhealthful occupations at which men, LEwis: The most unhappy man have
I
women and children are forced to work, ever seen was and one of the ten richest
is
and from adulterated foods, drinks and men the world. And yet his trouble
in
medicines. Socialism, by organizing in really his ignorance—the natural ignor
is
dustry coöperatively, and producing for long time.
of
ance one who has been rich
a
social use instead of for profit-making, to-day lies not
of
Most
in
of
the trouble
would simply revolutionize the methods the poor, but
of
the discontent the
in
of production. ignorance the rich.
of
LEWIS: One trouble with socialism is great mass
of
PHILLIPs: We have
a
that it goes on the theory that men are all intelligent people getting more intelligent
alike, and as a matter of fact, the differ all the time. They will correct the ignor
ence between men and men is a vast one. But, go back so
to
to
of
ance the rich.
your socialism
to.
Unless is prepared cialism, Mr. Ghent. Its grave scientific
play the modern Procrustes, it would assur defect that can not suggest how men
is
it
edly fail with man as he Nor do find kept the healthful, necessary
of be
is.
to
at
are
I
fault with that discontent against which routine work, they appoint their own
if
you preach. The way get men work bosses. Take any our government
to
to
of
make them discontented, and even services, for example. And where there
to
is
make one fellow try get more than the them, done by
to
in
is
is
it
fear that socialism would pro the poorest paid. The postman has
to
other.
I
an
conditions produce steamers. em
as
GHENT: the government
If
GHENT: Admitting, for the moment, lax, the private employer,
on
ployer the
is
of
There
is
it
a to a
to
the
PHILLIPs: Mr. Ghent, what limit child's capacity
or
to
this
of
man's
is
I
investigation London and Mr. Rown don't think hard work killing any class.
in
is
York,
shown that about one LEwis:
in as
in
tree's
of in
is
see
it
Shifting dis
as
constantly below the bare margin trifle, should say that one
or
at
cussion
a
The most recent figures great evil the final influence this tip
in
normal existence.
is
of
of
cul
At
state
the same time shown that the state of minates finally our McCurdys and
is
it
in
unemployment London worse than Depews. They are only big tip-takers.
in
is
it
has been before since 1882. We can thus And yet, suppose tip-taking and tip
I
pillage natural
of
day the English peasant and laborer most plastic thing we know of, and under
of
it
was that part the feudal age between goes marked changes along
he of
with the
production and the
so
form
to be
PHILLIPs: But how about his self where private interest will abolished,
fly
no
respect? He had none. He was well one will feel the impulse
at
the
a
throat Instead
a
his nature—
of
of so
have field
is
it
The Day of Discontent 607
at
who works will be secure. He will not PHILLIPS: An occasional bath for the
have that haunting fear for himself or his East Side would be an advancement.
dependents. He will then, instead of GHENT: They take baths there now;
and the death rate for certain
all
seeking at beat out his neighbor, diseases
to
times
aid his neighbor. He will seek has been greatly reduced since the munici
to
to
seek
all,
he
pality opened
as
its
do for the welfare cheap bath-houses. Dirt
of
now seeks
to do for himself
to
of
the detriment others. and the death rate go hand hand.
in
This attitude toward life means
all
different PHILLIPs: But after the principal
change
almost revolutionary human degradation the spiritual degradation
in
is
a
of
human conduct.
in
Thus socialism would abolish fear. That
to
other man for chance work.
a
LEwis: Fear inborn, and not from has always existed the world, and what
in
is
the end of
to
the outside. we should most want
is
see
GHENT: The nature of one’s fears that.
depends upon one's environment. Ari LEWIS: Isn’t fact that our Choates
In
it
a
likely cringing?
be
as
zona one would fear Apaches; and Roots are quite
to
lot
community parasites,
in
PHILLIPs:
of
a
a
public
on
of
of
the
most likely
he
be
would fear
in
starvation. not yet cringe and must not learn
to
do so.
LEwis: And yet Shakespeare wrote, LEWIS: have seen but one uncring
I
“He that down need never fear to fall.” ing independent man New York; that
is
in
Now have talked with poor people; was Richard Croker.
I
to
tell
the truth, don’t see why they should be. tip;
he he
to
a to
doesn’t like take forced
is
a
I
by
to
If
is
it
a
in it
a
afraid lose that? Now man drawing place larger sum tips. He
to
of
in
to a
a
cringing and
be
one-hundred-thousand-dollar salary, like doesn't like
to
submit
a
GHENT:
it
get another. But why fellow who letter written some years ago, criti
in
is
a
getting one dollar and thirty cents day this city for taking
of
afraid,
he
can’t understand;
it be
should
a
I
ployment decrease all the time. was degrading and asserted that they
if
is
your only remedy. And why not? What They could not get better wages, and there
do
to
grow too thick? You thin them out. PHILLIPs: Do the socialists advocate
PHILLIPs (Laughing): This terri or tolerate violence?
is
a
LEwis: Mr. Ghent, I'll tell you how the sure means,
as
Of late the
lie
to
the overthrow
They picture themselves general industrial and political strike has
as
you. want,
in
hoping thus make you give them some won favor as another means. The social
to
it,
it a
thinking you will put your hand your last desperate resort, out
of
fear that
in
a
do
pocket. And yet these people are living might more harm than good. But
Bebel, the leader
of
in as
the
in
live
in
of
of
New
better way. ..The
ork.
-/ Cosmopolitan Magazine
Jena Congress, has frankly accepted the the Post-Office Department with the graft
in or
general strike as a weapon and has served the three life insurance companies,
in
warning on the German government that take the graft
of
of
hundreds millions
it will be resorted to if the government merely the making and floating
of
the
attempts to withdraw the franchise from United States Steel Corporation. Where
is
Just now we are witnessing there anything equal public
to
the workers. the latter
in
the effects of the general strike in Russia. affairs -
2
Armed violence the socialists have almost LEWIS: What the government appro
is
invariably discountenanced, not out of priation for this year?
it,
any innate scruples against PHILLIPs: About six hundred and eighty
of
but out
a
sense of its uselessness. million dollars, believe.
I
LEwis: they steal the vote they LEWIS: cost only about fifty
In
as
If
1860
to it
did the other day this city, could not five million dollars run this government.
as in
I
regard the ballot much remedy. of Andrew Jackson ran for thirteen million.
it
Moreover voting often accompanied by a Doesn't the difference between now and
is
of
violence then smell
GHENT: There were about six hundred PHILLIPs: make one point
to
want
I
thousand votes polled New York, and about the public utilities. Under the present
in
grafters, private
no
so
as
of
far
I
killed and but few injured election and government—for our political parties
in
of
rows. But this this Under
is
in
of
of
the one.
It
is
a
tem may come about like the overthrow directly the grafters.
at
At present, with
private ownership, we have the public utili
be
slavery. by
of
would attended
It
ours. We would be
popular majority for the Socialist party better off the government owned the pub
A
if
by
the capital
be
may
of
as
power, just Lincoln's election was power, we would dismiss all the grafters.
by
of
followed the slaveholders’ revolt. The
at
Socialists, who will then represent the and are once saddled with new set.
a
be
forced
is
a
occasional embezzlements
I
believe that the government should do for What considered public graft simply
is
is
the invasion
it
to all
believe the country should own the rail corruption public servants pri
of
due
is
roads. Even were then robbed as vate interests attempting prey upon the
if
to
I
the Goulds, the Hills, and the making. Take our Treasury.
to
than Martin
Van Buren's time the amount
be
for thousand men than for one, paid that building was under five hundred
to
am
in
if
a
utilities being run better private enter can run this government with twenty per
prise; where has there been with any the people present employed
it.
in
at
of
cent.
public enterprise any such scandal
as
LEwis: graft that goes ments. But the truth that there more
is
is
Still there
is
a
with
is
it
it
LEWIS:
The Day of Discontent 609
is
A
its it
because we won't take the time and trouble legisla
of
If
architect own troubles.
a
to collar the thief. We're too busy getting ture takes bribes, you should not forget that
rich. We see a man stealing, but we won't the public elects the legislature. had
If
I
leave our business to go after him. been McCall the New York Life,
of
I
PHILLIPs: It seems to me that in no would have stood pat. would have said,
by
“I
country in the world is the discontent so have been blackmailed the legisla
keen as it is in this. It is intelligent discon ture, because the public elected black
tent here. It is a very healthy discontent, mailers.” But beyond that, given great
a
and I think it will continue and grow criminal, the public condones the offense.
greater. Our politicians are most amusing that condonation which the great
It
is
is
just now. They are all trying to dodge or both public and private wrong
of
reason
shift the issue. The Socialist party, it must doing. Take the McCalls, McCurdys and
be admitted, is the only one that squarely Depews. What happens these people?
to
faces the issue—which is the distribution of Nothing. Everyone glad
to
see them.
is
wealth, the division of the products of labor. The preacher still calls them “pillars
of
But, eager though the politicians are to They are well off so
as
righteousness.”
keep political discussion to the old, stupid, cially, religiously and professionally,
in
silly lines, they are being forced by the
as
spite their testimony, they ever were.
of
people toward the real issue. That is why GHENT: am disappointed this:
in
I
we are beginning to hear our statesmen dis While you, Mr. Lewis, and you, Mr. Phil
cuss timidly but nervously the taking over
as
lips, admit about all we socialists charge,
of the great public utilities, the railways, the prevalence graft, swindling, op
to
of
is,
no
the telegraphs, insurance. All this
of
a
on
everything that
be
to
it
do
in
Is
for the public think For the “oppression” you speak of, offer
to
own railroad
a it
2
a
I
good thing for the public the remedy
of
is.
own
it
a
I
I
not call these things socialism. the “graft and swindling,” Sing Sing.
PHILLIPs: The socialists were the first any way you will, an
to
of
enforcement
go
not enforced,
be
too far and grasp too much. Like the wouldn’t cure. the law
If
at
fabled monkey who reached the jar they the public's fault, and
in
I
up
its
grab fifty propositions once, and then nights protect public from
to
at
not
a
they can't get their hand out. They should own criminal indifference. am aware
I
at as
call themselves socialists; and, that my pose seems one cynicism and
to
of
cease
So
it:
of
as
ignorant
is
as
that anybody can devise for government poor. I've found the poor thievish,
privately tyrannical within their nar
as as
of
control
owned railroads. One little railroad will rower power are the rich. Everywhere,
all
on
at
or
talk about government con ness and misery, love and hate, laughter and
to
It
foolish
is
so
as
things intricate,
of
of
the direction
in
of
the roads. And no one knows this better “popular discontent”; and when ques
than the crowd that swindling itself into tioned, “popular discontent” would
is
that
by
an
to
wealth
LEwis: Every public gets the kind money and better the individual’s
of
make
6 IO Cosmopolitan Magazine
financial condition. You say that socialism stagnation, and stagnation the synonym
to of
would do away with that “discontent”—a humanity putridity—humanity gone
in
its
analysis turns out moral, mental and physical decay.
to
discontent which in As for
more than just fierce spirit Mass versus Class—the so-called laborer
be
no
com
of
a
petition. To my thought, this competition, against the so-called capitalist—I’m free
to
so
is as
this discontent, far from being disaster, say, my observation, that
of
the result
a
health and strength and final but one greater fool than the work
of
the seed there
is
he
of
*
stream. the fool works for.
is
a
You would eradicate the discontent, para Fools? Yes; fools because neither honest,
is
lyze the current with socialism. What neither upholds the law, while both are
Stagnation, and wolves rending each other
be
to
would the outcome the widest
2
the rottenness and falling limits their jaws, their ignorance and
to
of
destruction
which attend as inevitable corollaries. their opportunities. And now [rising go
to
it
to
the waiter] where
is
is
your argu I
by
of
the torch member
the synonym overcoat and hat?
of
be
to
ment. Socialism
is
Cupid’s Binocular
BY JULIAN DURAND
by