Togishi Shigekazu Jimmy Hayashi: A Report and Interview by Arnold Frenzel On Sept. 25-26, 1999, the Rochester Study Group, an informal sword study group founded by the late Alan Pressley, and dedicated to his memory, had the pleasure of a visit by Jimmy Hayashi, to our knowledge the only fully qualified Japanese sword polisher working in the United States. By prior arrangement about twenty people were able to obtain Mr. Hayashi’s opinion about the identity of their swords and, more pointedly, his views on their “polishability.” After that session, conducted confidentially with individuals in a separate room, Mr. Hayashi held the audience transfixed with an hour and one-half of very insightful replies to questions from the group as a whole. With the frequent use of careful drawings on the board we were all fascinated at his in depth and nimble handling of numerous questions, which could have gone on much longer except for the scheduled banquet, that followed. The collecting experience of the audience varied from a short time to decades, but I am certain that everyone left with very useful information and many insights. Prior to going to Rochester, Mr. Hayashi had visited two days in Canada and was able to see swords there in an unhurried setting. Doug Blue, Chris Sly and Jeffrey Wang ably carried out arrangements for the Rochester Study Group. Everyone was much impressed by the depth of Mr. Hayashi’s knowledge, his patience, his modesty and his thorough professionalism, It is hoped that his visit can become a biennial fixture of the Rochester Study Group. The following interview represents Mr. Hayashi’s written response to previously submitted questions from me, with input from some participants in the Rochester Study Group. Q: Please tell me something of your personal background. When and where were you bom; of all the things that could have interested you — under what circumstances did you develop and sustain, presumably from a young age, an interest in Japanese swords? ‘A: Iwas born on July 27, 1958 in the city of Wakayama, Wakayama Prefecture, Japan. At the age of 1 4 my parents moved to the U.S. and settled in San Francisco where my grandparents lived. I was raised there all the way up until I left for Japan to study Japanese Art Sword Polishing after graduating from high school. As long as I can remember I was always surrounded by Japanese swords. My grandfather owned an antique shop, where at first he conducted business from his residence. Looking back, I think it is pretty safe to say he was one of the first persons to specialize in Japanese Swords as an antique in the U.S. Very often at the sword shows, I have the privilege to meet people who knew my grandfather and have bought swords from him. I was very close to my grandparents so I would always visit them on weekends. I still remember seeing the walls of his store full of swords and many suits of armor.My grandfather was a firm believer in preserving one’s cultural heritage. From the time I was very young, | was taught Japanese customs, After school, I went to Japanese School to leam how to read and write Japanese. My grandfather would always say “It is a big disgrace being Japanese American and not able to speak Japanese.” I grew up in a part of San Francisco called “Nihon Machi” or Japan town. It was a great neighborhood to grow up in. There were a lot of things to do but the best part of the neighborhood was that we had 5 movie theaters, My parents liked going to the movies so they would take me along especially when samurai movies were playing. When my grandfather took a business trip to Japan, he would always bring back a toy samurai sword as my present. The toy swords were great back then. They were made of metal with a white hamon finish — not like the plastic ones we see today. I remember pretending to be Miyamoto Musashi. When I was in junior high school my grandfather became ill, so over the summer I helped my grandmother run the antique shop. This was the first time I came face to face with a real samurai sword. It was also at this time that my grandparents sat me down and explained that they are not toys, they are to be treated with respect but most importantly they were works of Art. Holding my first real samurai sword I was fascinated by its beauty, and 1 made a promise to myself that I would never consider using them. When my grandfather passed away I was given a wakizashi he treasured, to remember him by. Since my grandmother could not continue the antique shop by herself, my parents bought the business from her. I guess this was the time when I really got serious about the “Nihon-To”. I became a member of the Northern California Japanese Sword Club. I was very lucky because Yumoto Sensei and many of the senior members knew my grandfather. Everyone was so generous; they all let me enjoy and study many prize blades in their collections. Among all the people I knew there were three people to whom I am forever in their debt. The first person is John Yumoto Sensei. I will never forget that anytime a fine or interesting sword would be presented to him for examination he would make sure I got a chance to study it also, Mr. Suto and Mr. Jim Hitchcock were the members of the club that always took me to all the club meetings. They were close friends of my grandfather. In my eyes, they exemplified what an “Aito-ka” (sword lover) should be. A true gentlemen quiet and reserved but always willing to share their deep knowledge of swords. Under what circumstances and when did you decide to become a polisher; was it something that evolved out of a more general interest in Japanese swords, or did it come to you, as it were, ina flash?A: Before | became an Art Sword Polisher, I was a collector — Aito-ka. As I collected and studied many swords a great majority of swords were out of polish, Many were rusted or stained from neglect and handling by individuals who did not know how to care for swords. I had seen other swords that were polished by amateurs and the swords were severely damaged, I thought it would be great if I could learn how to polish swords as a hobby. In the U.S. the summer vacations are three months long. So, if I could spend the summer in Japan learning how to polish, would return every summer until I mastered and that would be super. As my study of swords progressed, | learned that Dr. Sato Kanzan and Dr. Honma Junji were the foremost experts in the study of swords (Kantei). The more books I read written by them, the more my admiration grew. They became the people I deeply respected. With the help of my parents, I wrote a letter to Dr. Sato. In my letter I told Dr. Sato how I loved swords and also my deep desire to study the Art of Polishing Swords, To my utter surprise, I received a reply from Dr. Sato, I really was not expecting him, a person as important as he was, to reply to a letter written by a green novice like me, But I guess his letter proved why he was a great man. Sato wrote that he was impressed by my enthusiasm. He also invited me to visit him next time I was in Japan. During the fall of 1973, my mother had to take a business trip to Japan so she took me with her. I wrote to Dr. Sato telling him about my upcoming trip. Dr. Sato was so gracious he invited my mother and myself to visit him at his residence. I still remember the evening when I met Dr. Sato for the first time. When we arrived at his residence, we were greeted by Mrs. Sato and were escorted to the Oosetsuma (parlor). It was like a dream, I was meeting the foremost leader in sword studies, the person who was an idol to me. I was so nervous at first, but when the conversation of swords came up everything was just fine. I told Dr. Sato about my desire to study sword polishing. I would like to spend my summer vacations in Japan studying and I would return every summer until | mastered everything, Dr. Sato listened to what I had to say very quietly. Then his expression got stricter and he said: “Learning to polish Japanese Art Swords is no easy task. One spends many years in apprenticeship and after that his whole lifetime perfecting and refining his skill.” When Dr. Sato said “A whole lifetime of perfecting one’s skill” I decided that I wanted to become a Japanese Art Sword Polisher. Dr. Sato was concerned that maybe my desire was just a whim so he said that I should finish high school first. After graduating, if my heart has not changed, come to Japan and he will introduce me to a Master Polisher for apprenticeship. Returning home I had already, in my heart, decided to become an Art Sword Polisher. I also did not want to neglect my schoolwork because of my decision. I hit the books and I even made the Honour Roll. Dr. Sato wrote me many letters explaining the hardship one goes through during apprenticeship. Many enter apprenticeship but alorig the way they quit because they could not handle the hardship. Dr. Sato also wrote me letters ofencouragement, When Ono Kokei Sensei and Hon’ami Nisshu Sensei were elevated to the level of “Living National Treasure”, I received a letter from Dr. Sato saying if one applies himself, the sky is the limit As I graduated high school I received a scholarship to the University of California at Berkeley. The thought of going to college was interesting but my passion was to become an Art Sword Polisher. In fact, my desire grew stronger, In the fall of 1976, I returned to Japan and met Dr. Sato. Dr. Sato introduced me to Miyakata Sensei. On November 3, 1976, | entered apprenticeship under him. Most of us know you studied polishing in Japan, but I heard the story that as a young man coming from America, you had to literally beg your Sensei to take you —is that true? No. That is not quite accurate. Dr. Sato was very concerned that because I was raised in the U.S., the rigors of apprenticeship would be too much for me, The process of training to become an Art Sword Polisher is so rigorous that most individuals, even native Japanese, quit part way through. Dr. Sato believed that a traditional apprenticeship “Uchi Deshi” (an “inside student”) is the only way to train. Once I entered apprenticeship, there would be no special treatment because I was raised abroad. I would be expected to follow every rule and tradition that was followed by all my predecessors. [told Dr. Sato that even though I was raised in America, in my heart the “Japanese Spirit” still burns. That I take no back seat to my Japanese counterpart. I agreed to accept and follow all the rules and traditions expected by an “Uchi Deshi.” : Tell me something about your training, How long did it last, who was your teacher, in what tradition were you trained, and what did your training consist of? : I served apprenticeship under Mr. Miyakata Norioki. Sato Sensei was very adamant that I train under the Hon’ami tradition, Sato Sensei was a big proponent of Mr, Nagayama Kokan, Nagayama Sensei was the student of the great Hon’ami Koson Sensei. I am proud to say Nagayama Sensei received the title of “Living National Treasure” in the Fall of 1998. Sato Sensei hoped that I could be apprenticed to Nagayama Sensei, Sato Sensei asked Nagayama Sensei about my possible apprenticeship. Nagayama Sensei had already trained nine “Uchi Deshi” and he did not want to take any more apprentices. Training apprentice not only is very demanding to the student but also very difficult for the master’s family. Nagayama Sensei suggested that I be enrolled in his polishing school. (During the late 60’s when the sword boom was at its height, there was a shortage of polishers to handle the amount of work generated, Nagayama Sensei was considered a pioneer, so he created a school to train mid- level polishers. The curriculum was for four years in which students were taught in a classroom atmosphere.) However Dr. Sato was dead set against training me in wnthis system. Dr. Sato wanted me trained as an “Uchi Deshi”. Nagayama Sensei recommended Mr. Miyakata, one of his prize pupils. Miyakata Sensei was given “Mukansa” title one year before I entered apprenticeship. Sato Sensei arranged for my mother and myself to meet with Miyakata Sensei and his family at the Sword Museum. The meeting was cordial. Miyakata Sensei asked me many questions about myself, my background, how I got interested in swords and why I wanted to become an Art Sword Polisher. Miyakata Sensei later invited us to visit at his home in Shizuoka Prefecture. At the end of my visit, Miyakata Sensei consented to take me as his apprentice. My apprenticeship was for 8 years. Traditionally it is 10 years, but Miyakata Sensei said that if one can’t master polishing in 8 years, that person was.not meant to be a polisher. A few days before I entered apprenticeship, I met Sato Sensei to thank him for all his help and that my “Deshi Iri” date was November 3, 1976. Sato Sensei sat me down and told me that during an apprenticeship, you are not taught anything. Your Sensei is not obligated to teach you anything. In a way you are to “steal” your Sensei’s skill and make it your own. It is up to you to observe what he does and. emulate him, Uchi Deshi lives with his Sensei and his family. A typical day would start around 7 am. I would wake up, clean the workshop, the house and the entrance to the house. After breakfast, I would enter the workshop and set up all the stones or other work equipment to be used that day so that when my Sensei entered the workshop and sat down, everything is all set for work to begin. We would work until noon, have lunch and have a break until 1 pm. From then, we will work until dinner with a short 15 min, snack break around 3 pm, After dinner work starts up again at 7 pm and goes all the way until my Sensei calls it a day, usually around 10 pm. At times when we had an important deadline such as the Juyo Shinsa, then the day might last all the way until 2 am. During the first year of apprenticeship you are not allowed to even touch a sword let alone apply stones to the sword. Your main chore is to clean the workshop, the house, run errands for Sensei and prepare the stones for Sensei to use. Usually if the Master had more than one apprentice the chores would be divided up. Since I was Miyakata Sensei’s only apprentice I was responsible for everything. As you gain more experience you are given more responsibility and are allowed to do more important work. My apprenticeship was divided up into three parts. The first four years were devoted to mastering the ground work (Shitaji). The next two years were devoted to the finishing (Shiage). And the last two were devoted to incorporating the first two and refining everything.(Comment: Mr. Hayashi was too modest to mention that upon the completion of his training in December, 1984, that he won the NBTHK Excellence Award for polishing.) : Most collectors know that the English word “polish” is an inaccurate and very incomplete description of your craft: please give us a brief summary of what constitutes a polish. : My formal title is “Bijutsu Token Kenma Shi”. “Bijutsu Token” means Art Sword. “Kenma” means Polish and “Shi” means Master of Teacher. So in English my title is Art Sword Polisher. Outside Japan, when you say “polish” it pretty much means to remove the rust and shine up the blade as you would with a western sword. When a “Kenma-Shi” polishes a sword, his main job is to first correct any imperfections in the shape, remove the rust, and bring the temperline and grain out on the sword. Most importantly to incorporate the two elements so that the maximum beauty of that blade is brought out. : We realize that assessment of a sword, particularly an o-suriage sword, a process somewhat captured by the term “kantei,” is essential in guiding the polisher to do a proper polish. Please explain how kantei, even when carried to the point of determining the style that a signed blade is done in, is critical in guiding your polishing approach to a sword, : Kantei is so important to polishing that without it a correct polish on a sword will be nearly impossible. Kantei provides the blue print of how a sword should be polished. Through Kantei we understand that a school of smiths has a certain characteristic. To a polisher that characteristic translates into an image of a sword that is unique to that smith. The polisher polishes that sword to fit that image. Take for example we have a sword made and signed by Hizen Kuni Mutsu no Kami ‘Tadayoshi. In my mind there is an image of what a Mutsu Tadayoshi should look like. The sugata, niku oki (meat distribution), and kissaki should look a certain way. The grain has to be brought out a certain way to reflect Mutsu no Kami Tadayoshi, not Shodai, Nidai, Hachi Dai or other Hizen Smith but San Dai Tadayoshi. ‘Then we have the intensity of the hamon, the brightness of the nie and the hataraki in the hamon has to reflect the 3 generation Tadayoshi. A successful polish can be done only when all the elements are addressed. When a knowledgeable person examines that sword, he should quickly recongnize that it was made by Mutsu no Kami Tadayoshi, and no one else. : How does a polisher, when he is starting out, acquire those kantei skills? To polish a sword correctly one must know kantei, yet kantei skills develop after long experience: which is chicken and which is egg?A: If you look back through history most of the Kantei experts were Art Sword Polishers. Probably the most famous experts would be the Hon’ami Family. They were employed by many Daimyo as the caretaker, polisher advisor to the clan’s treasured swords, With such an important position the Hon’ami family had the freedom to accumulate a vast knowledge of swords. Also, the position brought the security to devote all of their energy into perfecting the best technique in bringing out the best quality in each sword. As one generation perfected one aspect of polish, that knowledge was passed onto the next worthy generation. The next generation then added on to that knowledge and this cycle was repeated over and over again. A polisher is trained simultaneously both polishing technique and Kantei, About a week after I entered apprenticeship, Miyakata Sensei gave me a set of Kantei textbooks written personally by Nagayama Sensei. I was required to read and fully understand its contents on my own. As I said before you are not taught, you have to take the initiative to learn. You lear one sword one smith, one school at a time. Understanding the technical aspect of polish is not difficult. Today there are many books written on Kantei. But incorporating the two is what takes so long. There are no books or text on this subject. The only way to acquire the knowledge is to become an apprentice, under a great master, watch and learn how he polishes. There are no short cuts. Q: You are trained in the Hon’ami tradition, but of course there are other traditions; how do different traditions lead to different polishing outcomes? Is it related to the kantei tradition that a polishing tradition might follow? A: Today there is two dominant traditions of polishing, the Hon’ami Tradition and Fujishiro Tradition. From the technical aspect such as determining the proper shape, both traditions are the same. It is when we get into the finishing process (shiage) that we observe the difference. Even the Hon’ami tradition, in which I am trained, there is a great difference im the finishes. From the very flamboyant to the very subtle finishes, it depends on whom that polisher trained under. Also the aesthetic sense of the polisher comes into play. It does not mean that a polisher has free reign on how to finish a sword. There is a constant basic Kantei image, criteria each sword has to meet. Taking my previous example of the Mutsu no Kami Tadayoshi, Let’s say we had 10 identical Tadayoshi blade and we had the swords polished by 10 different master polishers. The outcome will be that we will have 10 swords beautifully polished. Maybe one was polished with a little more emphasis on the grain, maybe another the grain is not emphasized as much but they all will exhibit the characteristic a Mutsu no Kami Tadayhoshi should have. Polishers are not robots, we are flesh and blood as you and L. As long as the basic characteristic of the particular sword is met the polisher has the artistic freedom to express his interpretation of how a particular sword should look. The rest is up to the taste of the public and the in vogue styles of the time.Qa A My Sensei was an “Uchi Deshi” under Nagayama Kokan Sensei. I am member of the Nagayama family. Among all the polishers following the Hon’ami tradition, probably the Nagayama Sensei interpretation of polish is the most distinctive. So much so that in some circles they refer to his polishing as Hon’ami Kei Nagayama Ryu. (Hon’ami tradition/family Nagayama style). Nagayama Sensei and Miyakata Sensei believe that 50% of the beauty of the sword lies in the grain and that it should be emphasized. Also the hatori (white glossy accent finish) should be done in such a way as to exhibit elegance and refinement in the sword. Please distinguish between sashikomi and kessho polishes. Under which circumstances would a blade be better polished one way or the other? Basically the big difference between Sashikomi and Kessho polish is in the hatori. Kessho has the hatori done to the temperline while Sashikomi polish does not. Also the emphasis given to each polish is also different. In Sashikomi polish the main emphasis is the hamon. A special Nugui is applied to the sword to bring out the hamon to a grayish white finish. Unfortunately, in order to do that a different kind of stone are used which tones down the grain. In Kessho polish emphasis is given both to grain and hamon. The grain jihada is brought out more and the hamon is accented with hatori. Kessho polish looks good on any sword while only a few swords will get great results in Sashikomi polish. Sashikomi polish is in a way a naked or “as is” polish. The most ideal sword for a Sashikomi polish is a sword that is very healthy with little or no flaws; also the temper should be nioi deki. Sword with flaws or rough hada should never receive a Sashikomi polish because all of the flaw will be accentuated. In Kessho polish the polisher has more options in compensating for flaws on a sword, He can tone down its flaws and highlight its attributes. ; Some collectors prefer a sashi-komi polish because they believe it is best at bringing out the activity within the hamon, but at the same time they are told such a polish would condemn a blade in the Juyo Token process. Can you help me understand this issue? : Since returning from Japan and polishing 'in the U.S. for 15 years, I have noticed that some collectors preferred Sashikomi polish. I especially noticed that beginners like Sashikomi. I attribute that to the beginners not having acquired the knowledge to properly examining the sword, I usually ask them to show me how they examined or studied a sword. When I show them the proper technique in studying swords they finally understand the merits of Kessho polish. I am sure you have noticed that most of the amateur polish is in a Sashikomi-like finish. Sashikomi in its lowest form is simple enough that an individual can get some result while involving little skill, unlike Kessho, which require a lot moretraining, and a higher level of skill to get the minimal results. But don’t get me wrong, in order to produce the highest quality Sashikomi polish it involves just as much skill as Kessho polish. As for the Juyo shinsa — Kessho polish question, yes I feel a sword has a better chance becoming Juyo Token in a Kessho polish than Sashikomi. You have to realize that in a Juyo Token Shinsa only the best example of a swordsmith’s work is elevated to Juyo status. A Japanese Art Sword Polisher can be thought of as a sword beautician. His job is to polish a sword so that all of its attributes are brought forth and displayed to the highest level possible, while at the same time its flaws and shortcomings are toned down or compensated for. In Kessho polish the polisher has a vast array of options to compensate for a sword’s flaws. Except for the very rare and lucky individual that owns an almost flawless blade, a great majority of the swords we come across have some kind of flaw. Especially when it comes to a Koto sword this is true. Because it has survived such a long time there is bound to be tired areas on the blade, possibly in the jigane or hamon. It is in these situations that Kessho polish is best suited for. In a Juyo Token Shinsa you want to present your sword in the best condition possible. With a Sashikomi polish one is very limited to the kind of sword to be submitted. For a sword to really stand out in a Sahikomi polish 1) it has to be very healthy; 2) it should be nioi deki; and 3) the blade should have no or very little flaw in the hamon and jigane. Any flaws on a sword with a Sashikomi polish will stand out like a sore thumb. For a sword to be judged for its quality something like that will be a big minus. ; _L understand that the polishing process, and all our accumulated knowledge about it, has changed over the years. When did today’s techniques develop and how different might a newly polished sword have looked at the start of the Shinto or early Muromachi times? : Professional Sword Polisher has existed ever since the development of the Japanese Sword. In one of the oldest sword related text, “Kan Schi in Hon Mei in” dated Oei Sanju Nen Juni Gatsu Niju Ichi Nichi (December 21, 1423) Emperor Gotoba had employed two sword polishers named Kunihiro and Tamesada, however it is not known what kind of polish was done by the two or their skill level because as sword tusts it is polished, thus erasing the previous work. The refinement of technology of polishing to bring out the sword’s beauty progressed during the time when the sword was being recognized as art. Also the recognition that the sword had monetary value greatly contributed to its progress. At the same time around the beginning of the Muromachi period implements used in the tea ceremony became highly valuable. The sword was viewed as a weapon but also a symbol of wealth and status. So demand for the sword to be polished tobring out its beauty was even more increased, thus the artistic technique developed further. If the main idea of polishing was merely to sharpen the blade and remove rust then everything would have been a simple process. If that was the only goal we would not have seen the great advances in polishing skill. The first historically important person to recognize both the sword’s artistic possibilities and symbol of wealth status was Toyotomi Hideyoshi. It is believed that Hon’ami Kotoku had a great influence on Hideyoshi, Because of Hon’ami Kotoku effort the technique of polishing the sword to bring out its beauty was forever legitimized. During the Edo period the art or technology of polishing was further advanced. The Hon’ami family was the dominant figure at the time but along with the other polishing groups such as Kiya, Takeya, and Kakuya or Kakuno, appeared and prospered. Observing some of the ghigata scrolls left by the group they polished many fine swords of the Bakufu. The new group was called “Machi Togi” and prospered during the Mid Edo period, It is thought that they were originally subcontractors to the Hon’ami family who later formed and developed their own group. The prosperity that was enjoyed by polishing groups throughout the Edo period did not suffer even after the “Baku Matsu” and when western culture became popular. It was around 1871, with the social changes, that the prosperity started to dwindle. In April, 1876 the “Haito Kinshi Rei” (The Order Outlawing the Wearing of Sword) proved devastating to the polishing community. No one wanted to have their swords polished. It was darkest moment in history for polishers. It was during that time around 1887 that there was a big advancement in polishing technology. It was polishing technique using the “Kanahada Nugui” perfected by Hon’ami Heijuro Narishige. During the Edo period a polished sword will have a dark finish to the Ji with the hamon appearing in a grayish appearance, basically as Sashikomi Nugui polish. In contrast a sword polished using the Kanahada Nugi had a more dynamic finish. The Jitetsu has a bluish black finish with the Jihada beautifully brought gut. The hamon is accented in a snow soft finish carefully following the pattern of the hamon. The shinogi ji is burnished to a deep strong luster. When all three elements are combined the resulting polish gives the sword a lively finish. The new style perfected by Hon’ami Heijuro Narishige is presently called “Kessho Polish”. But the biggest advancement was the Japanese Sword. The Nihon to has departed from category of practical tool and elevated to the status of art objects, ; Please discuss a few of the “nasty” problems a polisher is likely to encounter and how you cope with them. Should nakago rust be cleaned? : Working in the U.S. I have polished swords that been damaged in many different ways. There was one sword that was previously owned by a person who watched too many samurai or martial arts movies. The blade was chipped from the hamachi all the way up to the kissaki; the sword looked like a Japanese saw. There wasanother sword where the previous owner used the sword to trim his hedges. The rust was so bad from the sap that it looked like the Nakago. To compound the situation it was heavily chipped. Both of the swords required a lot of work but they polished out just fine. A professional Art Sword Polisher is trained to handle chips, bends, and rust. The nastiest problems I have faced polishing in America are swords previously polished by amateur polishers. When such a sword comes in for polish I pretty much have to reshape the whole sword, redefining every aspect of the sword: mune, shinogi ji, and the ji. In most cases the niku (meat) of the sword is severely polished away making my work more difficult. All in all, the sword is the one that suffers unnecessary wear and tear. As for the rusty nakago, it is best left to the experts. Who knows maybe that one act of impatience or foolishness may prevent your sword from becoming a Juyo Token. : Is the quality of a sword reflected in the way it responds to the stones and to your touch? In general the overall appearance of any sword will improve with a good polish. Swords made by the great master are very different. When those swords are polished by highly skilled polishers the sword will respond to his skill. If a master polisher works on an average sword and he puts in an effort of 100 the outcome will be 100. If that same polisher polishes a great sword, the outcome of the same 100 will come back as 500 or even 1000. What I am trying to say is, the better the sword it must be polished by a well-trained polisher who can bring out all the potential in that sword, ; Can you tell me about some of the really nice swords you have worked on in Japan or the U.S.?. Which type of swords do you most enjoy polishing? : I think I was very fortunate to have been able to train under my teacher Miyakata Sensei. My Sensei being a “Mukansa” polisher, I got to assist in polishing many great swords, In returning to the U.S. I was fortunate to have been able to polish quite a few great swords, also. It is very difficult to name them all. I have 10 swords that really stand out in my memory. 1) O Suriage Katana attributed to Norishige. It is a Tokubetsu Juyo Token. 2) O Suriage Wakizashi attributed to Sukezane. It was a Juyo Bunkazai. 3) Tachi with Ubu Nakago signed Masatsune. Ko Bizen. 4) O Suriage Katana with Kinzogan Mei attributed to Masamune. 5) Ubu Naginata signed Unji, it was a Juyo Token. 6) Katana Ubu signed by Nanki Shigekuni, Juyo. 7) Daisho Ubu signed by Horikawa Kunihiro. 8) Tachi signed, Mitsutada - Tokubetsu Juyo Token.9) O Suriage Katana attributed to Sa. 10) Tachi signed by Ko Bizen Nobufusa. As long as the sword is sound and has good grain, I am not picky. (Comment: During the discussion in Rochester, Mr. Hayashi discussed the problem that no. 2 above had, a rust patch in the monouchi jigane near the yokote line. We were all fascinated by his discussion of the analysis of the problem and how he corrected that fair sized patch when he was still an Uchi Deshi. It spoke volumes of the trust Miyakata Sensei vested in Mr. Hayashi. Working on such a sword must have been challenge enough under the best of circumstances, namely an entire repolish, however the problem presented was not just the repair, but making it seamlessly blend in with the existing old polish!) Q: We often hear that your waiting list is years long. Can you tell me something about how one gets a place in that order, what are your fees, how do you co-ordinate polishing, habaki and shirasaya? Do you have “grades” of polish quality? A: In order to get on the list just write me with your request and your name will be entered. The cost of polish depends on the condition of the sword. As for the coordination of having habaki and shirasaya made I would like to handle everything. In Japan, the polisher is the person that coordinates everything. Unfortunately, I do not handle swords to be sent to Japan for Shinsa. I have only one grade of polish, which is the best polish I can give you at the present time. Q: Finally, Mr. Hayashi, would you care to venture an opinion, based on the material submitted to you for polish, whether we in the West, in comparison with Japanese tastes, are collecting the right things? A: I think there is no such thing as “the right thing to collect”. Collectors in Japan and in the West are the same. They should collect what appeals to them. Collect swords that bring out the passion in you. The rest will take care of itself. (Comment: Other interesting interviews with Mr. Hayashi are found in Token Bijutsu (NBTHK), No. 23 (Winter, 1985), and, Newsletter (JSS/US), Vol. 22, No’s 1-2 (January- February, and March-April, 1990); the former is a dialogue between Suzuki Takuo, Miyagata Norioki and Jimmy Hayashi, the latter, an interview with Cary Condell.)