Cultivating basic trust and supporting deep healing

Session 4 Part 4 - Discussion

Guests: Gabor Mate and Hameed Ali

Disclaimer: The contents of this interview are for informational purposes only and are not intended to be a substitute for
professional psychological advice, diagnosis, or treatment. This interview does not provide psychological advice, diagnosis, or
treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a
medical or psychological condition.

[00:00:06] Gabor Mate

You have these very precise descriptions of essential qualities, and they have different colors and
tastes. And you talk about the viscosity and feeling. And it might be that kind of stuff, it drives me
crazy, because it seems so inaccessible, and it leaves me with a sense of, okay, if I don't experience
this golden nectar, then I'm missing out on something. So sometimes the impact of your words, as
much as I've learned from them, also leaves me like somebody with a little kid looking at a pastry
shop with his nose pressed against the glass, but he can't get any of it. Do you get that response from
anybody else, or am I just a particularly embittered young fellow?

Hameed Ali
I'm sorry you feel that way. That's not my intention.

Gabor Mate
I'm sure it's not.

Hameed Ali
It's not exactly that. When I get people's push back about those things, they say, "Why are you telling
us this? We want to experience it ourselves. We don't want you to put words in our minds." That's the
usual. The ancient spiritual way, you don't talk about spiritual experiences, like them people, they
never say what they experience. What I found, although that is a good principle, is that most people
are so ignorant, their mind is not open to the possibilities.

So I mention these things as possibilities for people to open their minds to. It doesn't mean it's going
to happen. But I'm showing all the possibilities that humanity can have. And that way it will open up
our minds. Not so that we try to have that experience, but to know it's possible so that our mind
doesn't build up belief systems, that such things don't exist.

Gabor Mate
I have another question about that, which is, I know that you've had those experiences and you
describe them in great detail and very eloquently. The question is, are those your particular
experiences filtered through your particular temperament and makeup, or are they general
experiences that accompany the spiritual awakening for anybody? And if it's the former, there's a kind
of sense I get from you, reading it, you seem to say that this is just a standard. If you get to a certain

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level of spiritual depth, you're going to have those experiences. Are you generalizing your own
experience or are you really talking about something universal? That's what my question is.

[00:02:50] Hameed Ali

Well, one principle you need to know about that I follow when I write books, I will not write something
unless I have confirmed it with other people. In fact, when I first started discovering things, I had
friends and colleagues who were discussing and having similar experiences. And then we
experimented with our students, and them coming up with the experience before we even said it. By
working with a particular issue, particular pattern, they end up experiencing like this, as you said, this
nectar, whatever. And I didn't say it yet, and they come up with it, and they give it the same name as I
give it.

Gabor Mate
I see.

Hameed Ali
So for me, there are universal experiences. But that doesn't mean everybody will experience them.
Many spiritual teachings don't focus on the textures. Like if you follow, for instance, mindfulness or
you follow nondual Advaita Vedanta, they don't get into that. If you follow mindfulness, you might get
to witness pure awareness of things. If you are in Vedanta, you get into the vastness of consciousness.
You don't get into the particulars of the heart, like the viscous fluid, pomegranate love, or the
experience of the will as solid platinum in your legs.

If you are just transcendent experience like Vedanta, you might not encounter those things. And if you
don't include the heart in a spiritual teaching, you might not get into the nectars, and all of that. But
some spiritual teachings do have those things. The Sufis do mention them. The Kabbalah do mention
many of these things, and some of the Vajrayana Buddhism do mention something similar to them, if
not exactly the same.

So these are the potentials of the spiritual universe. You know, Gabor, one thing that I always marvel
about is that many human beings, they're aware of the world and the universe, and our cosmology
has expanded it to such a great extent. It's an amazing universe, right? I don't know, 13 billion light
years old and big, and there are more stars in the galaxies than there are human beings on Earth. And
there are actually more galaxies than human beings. And there are parallel universes. It's wide and
immense.

The spiritual world is much bigger. That's my experience, the experience of the great masters. When
we go into the spiritual world. It's not just a spiritual experience, it's not just consciousness of spirit. It's
a whole universe of experiences, of dimensions, of ways of experiencing. And that's what I'm trying to
educate people, open, at least put the idea in people's minds. And that really, this physical world is
just the outer shell of something deeper, bigger, larger. And that also is the source of fulfillment and
happiness and healing. You bring in the healing part of it, but it's also the place of true happiness and
peace.

Gabor Mate
Well, let me ask you one... I have two more questions I'd like to ask you. One is personal, the other
more general. The one is related to what you just said. Take somebody like myself. I'm active in the
world. I do a lot of good work. Justice, peace, truth, these are values, they're essential for me. They're
essential not just in the sense that I know them to be my essence, according to your teachings, but
also because they're essential for me that I pursue them, that I work towards them, that I try to
manifest them in the world. Not that I do that well or consistently or anything all the time, but they are
essential to me. I know that I've experienced love. It's not that... I sell myself short if I say I've never had
spiritual qualities that I've realized because I have, here and there.
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[00:07:35] Hameed Ali
You're saying that you were selling yourself short. I was wondering about that. I said, you can't be not
having...

Gabor Mate
Look, I have a certain mind that does that. When I look into my wife's eyes, it's just pure love, and it's
the universe shining back love at me. I know that. So I've had these, they're specific, but they're also
something general. So my question is, all right, so what if I never have this big awakening? Like if I go
to my death without ever having had this conscious... By the way, let me stop for a moment to say
something. Talking with you and just being in your presence, just interacting with you, does bring a
certain kind of aliveness for me, or I become aware of it. And I think you understand that, but I just
want to acknowledge it, that it's here. It's not like I'm just talking about it in the abstract. But to
complete the question, if I lived the rest of my life like this, so what? What have I lost? Is there a
problem?

Hameed Ali
Well, the more in touch we are with our spiritual nature, the easier the process of death. First of all,
the more fulfilled life is. The process of death is easier, there is less fear, and the after death
experience has more possibilities, more capacity, than for the person who hasn't...somebody who
hasn't done any spiritual work, they're lost afterwards because they'll find themselves as a soul with
no direction, with no sense of what's going on, and so they're really so lost.

But everybody, most of the human race are not awakened. And some people have missions in their
life that are useful services like you do. And that is good. I think that by itself is a spiritual development
of sorts. And I really appreciate the work you're doing and many of the other people who work on
trauma, making it known that trauma is important, and that's a service, and I think that naturally will
have, what I say is, fruitions to it. And you're still alive. We don't know what's going to happen. And you
have some spiritual experiences.

One thing I wanted to say is that many of my students don't have the great awakening, the full
liberation. They just have spiritual access. Their life is punctuated by spiritual experiences, presence,
qualities of love or compassion, strength or clarity. That's what usually happens if people do spiritual
work. Some people get to the state of awakening and liberation. Those are few, even in my school,
they are not that many. There are few people who are really awakened. That's a rare thing, always
been rare in humanity.

But having spiritual access, having openness, can happen to many more people, and that is important
on its own, because that brings in more meaning in life. It brings in more sense of purpose. We know
the possibilities, we know other dimensions of ourselves than just the usual self and the physical
body. And that's of great value, and that, I think, will help old age and dying and all that.

Gabor Mate
Thank you. I'd just say, for the record, but in my mind, when somebody like yourself or anybody else
speaks about what happens just after death, my mind just doesn't go there. In my own...

Hameed Ali
Yeah, I understand.

Gabor Mate
I can't prove it. But as far as...

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[00:12:15] Hameed Ali
Neither do I.

Gabor Mate
Yeah. Okay. Good.

Hameed Ali
Neither can I prove it.

Gabor Mate
But for me, once they lower me into the ground, that's the end of Gabor. Anyway, I just don't go there.
But...

Hameed Ali
When you think that, I know, many people think that way, is that good news or bad news?

Gabor Mate
It's just news. It's not even news. It's just a reality. I don't judge it one way or the other, I'm okay with it.

Hameed Ali
For some people, they say, oh great. Finally I'll be done.

Gabor Mate
I'll be at peace finally. No, you won't be at peace.

Hameed Ali
Finally at peace without even knowing they're at peace. But some people are scared because they
want to live. One question I have for you, for everybody. Why do people feel they don't want to die?
They love life so much, they don't want to die. Why is that?

Gabor Mate
I don't think it's because they love life so much. I think because they identify with an early loss that
they're afraid to repeat. That's what I think is happening.

Hameed Ali
Yeah, I think that's true. Part of it is that something is not completed, needs to be completed. But I
think part of it is, my understanding from my research into my students or whatever, is that people
don't want to die because they know at some deep level when they recognize the aliveness of their
consciousness, that that aliveness is not physical, that the aliveness is coming from somewhere else,
giving the body aliveness. So that life is not the life of the body. Life is given to the body by pure life. If
you're pure of life, you wonder, what does it mean? If I'm pure life beyond the body, what will happen
when the body is gone? That would be a good question, just an open question.

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[00:14:25] Gabor Mate
Let me ask you a different question, and it's the last one I have this morning. It's a big one. There are
some major failures in human history, Buddha and Jesus being amongst them. In other words, they
taught these wonderful realities. They not only taught them, they realized them within themselves,
they manifested them. They taught their followers, many others. And the world is just going to hell in
a basket and has been ever since. And right now, we're facing this climate change catastrophe, which
only the most traumatized or the most venal can possibly deny.

What I'm saying is that for all the spiritual teachings and all the spiritual work that people have done,
the world, humanity continues and in fact accelerates on a self-destructive course. At what point... So
I'm talking now about the need for social awareness, for political work, for broader societal
engagement. So for me, my life would not be complete if I didn't pay attention to those issues. And if I
didn't do what I can with whatever platform I have to make a difference. Where do you stand with
that?

Hameed Ali
I agree with you, Gabor. I think it's true. All the religions that came, Buddha, Jesus, they didn't change
the world. And they did not necessarily improve humanity as a whole. I agree with you. There are a
few individuals who benefited, who learned to leave the cycle of Samsara as Buddha said it. There
are many people who had that possibility, but changing all humanity, nobody was able to do it. And
humanity in some sense is still primitive, was primitive, is still primitive. Even with our advances,
enlightenment, scientific revolution and all the civil that we have, we're still as human beings, we are
primitive. Not many people are compassionate or loving, and many people are still selfish and all of
that. That is true.

And I think it is important to be engaged in social action, political action, all of that. The thing about it,
about social action, although I think we should do it, because what else are we going to do? People
have been doing that for thousands of years, it usually doesn't really work or it doesn't last that long.
As you know, for instance, the Greeks had democracy, it didn't last, it died off. Even the Romans
started with democracy, and Caesar came and changed it to a Caesar. So even our American
democracy might not last. It's an experiment. Because human beings, as we know, are self-centered.
Their drive for survival is so powerful that it makes the person want to survive at all costs, at some
point even at the cost of others. And that's general in the human race, although I'm not saying
everybody. There are many people who are kinder and more generous.

So our present situation... I remember somebody at the beginning of COVID happening. I had an
interview with the newspaper, and they said, don't you think this can bring up a new enlightenment? I
said, Why do you think that? He said, well before the new enlightenment, there was the plague and
all of that, and then happened the enlightenment. I said, I don't think the enlightenment happened
because there was a plague. And I don't think that this pandemic is going to bring enlightenment. In
fact, what we see is it brought more divisions. Right? Or allowed them to surface. They were already
there, I think, and showing the human capacity for cruelty, ignorance. And many people refusing
science, refusing reason, refusing intelligence. It's amazing to see that. And it's disheartening.

But also, I also see that people who are working with themselves spiritually in a dedicated way are
continuing to do that. And I think they need to continue, especially because of the difficulty the world
has going on, because the human race is going to survive. I want it to survive with some people who
have some modicum of spirituality because that's what makes humans human. Otherwise we just
survive as animals and some kind of being.

So I think spirituality in general, in the past, a few people basically benefited from it, not the general
human race. And for most part, it's still that way, maybe more than before, but it's still like that. And I
think it's good to know for everybody that bringing in a spiritual element in your life can enrich it, and
all of that. But don't expect that spirituality is going to transform the world. Most of the world is too
asleep, too selfish to even entertain the possibilities of kindness and generosity or something like that.

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[00:20:48] Gabor Mate
I wonder... I keep saying it's my last question, and another one keeps coming up. But what comes up
for me now is just to ask you about... Noam Chomsky once said that he was asked if he was a
pessimist or an optimist, and he said, "Strategically, I'm an optimist. And technically, I'm a pessimist." In
other words, in the short term, it's going to get worse, in the long term... And I'm the same way. And
even despite this looming climate, it's not even looming, it's happening. Climate catastrophe.

Hameed Ali
I agree. We're seeing it happening.

Gabor Mate
There's something in me that says, you know what? I don't know how, but I think we're going to
muddle through somehow. In other words, I think humanity will somehow solve this problem. Not that
I have much evidence that that's what's going to happen. But something in me still says that. Now that
could be just sheer denial or dogged optimism. But it seems real to me. What is your stance there?
Do you even concern yourself with questions of optimism or pessimism?

Hameed Ali
I do. Yes, of course, I'm a human being. So I would say that climate change is going to get worse, and
the world is not going to do much about it. And by the time the world does something about it, a lot
of damage would have happened.

Gabor Mate
Yes.

Hameed Ali
At some point, I think humanity will, because it will touch everybody directly, and then they'll do it.
Most people, especially politicians, don't think in the long term.

Gabor Mate
No.

Hameed Ali
They think about, am I surviving tomorrow? Am I going to pay more or less taxes? Things like that.
They're not thinking about what's going to happen in 10, 20 years. They can't. Most human beings
don't have that capacity. And politicians are the worst of humanity, most politicians, not all of them,
but most of them. They just want to be reelected. They don't care if the world goes to pots as long as
they get reelected. So I agree with you that way, but I don't think the human race is going to become
extinct because of climate change, but I think we're heading to a lot of trouble. That's my sense.

Gabor Mate
In my new book, I actually have a chapter on the trauma of politics. And when I look at political
leaders, they're often very traumatized people.

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[00:23:21] Hameed Ali
I think they need a course in trauma. I wish you will... I know some trauma people are invited to the
United Nations. I wish they'd get invited by the Congress. Our congressmen need a lot of trauma
work.

Gabor Mate
Well, as soon as Joe Biden or Donald Trump phones me for a session, I'll be happy to offer them one,
but so far they haven't called me. I don't know why, but they just haven't.TT

This rich conversation, these were the questions I wanted to put to you. Alex...

Hameed Ali
So let's see if other people have questions for us.

Alex Howard
Yeah, I'm mindful we should probably take a little break. I just want to say that that's the conversation I
wanted to happen right through this program. I've really enjoyed just letting that kind of unfold with
the two of you. So thank you.

I have a few clarifying questions that I'm going to come back with after the break. And then I'm going
to open the chat function in a minute. If people want to, during the break, they're welcome to share
reflections, thoughts, things they wanted feedback on from the aspiration that we just had.

I'll also then as we go into the second half, I'll pick some of those questions and if they're shorter
questions, but also, I can see if you post in the Q & A, I may also bring you on to the call to interact as
well.

So we'll take a ten minute break now. We'll come back at around 33 minutes past, and we'll continue
from there.

And, Gabor and Hameed, thank you so much. That was such a rich discussion.

Gabor Mate
Thank you.

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