The 1984 Movie Revue: I Jim Jarmusch interviewed by Harlan Jacobson “Akron's most famous son, other chan the Goodyear Blimp, is Jim Jatmusch, whose Stranger Than Paradise refashions the image of the American landscape Ie’s Cleveland where God sat when he made Lake Erie. Its Guernica without the tertor, @ nusting industrial cheme- park, where we are the mice left after the giants have died, and existence is hipster’ hustle “More than a story of aliens and aliena- tion, Stranger Than Paradise is about the decline of standards. Jarmusch’s three characters—Eva, Willie, and Eddie— are doing a hodge-podge Wizard of Oz return to the American dream. The road is endless, and the same, everywhere the same. No yellow bricks, nobody home at the controls, just Dumb Luck ‘armed with a wicked humor This is life as lived by Ralph Kramden, Ed Norton, and Alice transplanted to the Eighties, ‘where TV is still the eye that binds, Three Guys in! ‘Stranger Than Paradise’ : $120,000 Jarmusch’s second film (the first, Per~ ‘manent Vacation, isan 80-minute pream- ble about drifting), Stranger Than Para- dise is a black-and-white three-parter that begins with Eva (Eszter Balint) deopping down from Budapest into the New York lives of Willie (Richard Lurie) and Eddie (Richard Edson), a couple of Damon Runyon updates in shades and squashed fedoras This is the New World, and the joke is on her. The streets are beat, the place is shot, and the culture satrizes itself: “Quality You Can Trust” reads the sign on the bombed-out gas station; “U:S. Out of Everywhere” (something only popped bubbles can accomplish) screams the Braff. In the backstory, Budapest was probably in color Eva's introduction to Willie was all there was of Stranger originally—30 minutes of footage squeezed from 40 ‘minutes of leftover stock donated by Wim Wenders after State of Things. Like Eva, Jarmusch came into cash—the pal- try $120,000 needed for parts two and (continued on page 60) Fert Gongs Q\.1 Cameo 1195) The Terminator, was one ofthe last cum laude graduates of The Roger Cor ‘School of Survival Filmmaking —New! ‘World Pictures as it existed before ‘man sold the company and moved on, Cameron's stripped-down ‘winner looks like something a Cormas protegée might devise: It’s almost na stop, flamboyant action, kicked when a killer android from the fu (Amold Schwarzenegger) pops up sta naked in contemporary downtown L.A and begins implacably stalking his signed victim, Sarah Conner (Lit Hamilton) Her unborn child will lead revolution against the coming dict ship of inceligent machines. Miel Beihn plays Reese, the funute re tionary sent back to prevent the kil ‘The pieture may look New World bbut Cameron doesn't. With his neat cof fure, distressed-leather bomber jdirector. 1 gather it was screenvriting that gor ‘your career going Well, there was hiatus in the produc- sion of Terminator where I had the op- ortuniry to write two otherscripts, basi- cally on the strength of that one’ The first onc was The Mission a.k.a. Rambo, the sequel to FirstBlood They switched the name after the fact, and Sylvester Saallone changed a few other things after the fact—although that was a given. I was a hired gun and took it for that feason, to see what ic felt like to write without hoping you might direct. Then 1 got involved wich Walter Hill and David Giles, who are producing Alien [1 11 rust be a validation for someone who works in action pictures to get hired by Wolter Hill Ie's an absolute validation, because I had The Driver in mind when I was write ingeereain scenes in The Terminazor Not that I was cribbing; I had only seen the picture once and just hada dim memory of the kinetic forward energy he had in it And thea while I was writing Termi- nator, The Road Warrior came out and 1 said, “This is the nexe step.” Nobody in between had come close My interpreca- tion of Walte’s supporting me is that he ‘wants to sce me succeed—so that it can g00n to the next s People said of Alien when itfirst came out—and it's also true of Outland and Blade Runner and Terminator—that it resented the future in a very grim light because that's what people find plausible now The future won't be better than the resent, i's going to be all the worst as. ects of the present intensified The cur. ‘ent audience seems to take that notion for granted. I's depressing when you watch the interviews with high school kids the day after The Day After and see that they've ‘come to accept the inevitability of nu- clear war. In The Terminator the fact of nuclear war is thiown away, with the complete understanding that people will buy ic, I's just pare of che fabric of the story On the other hand, it tried to say that you take responsibilty for your own life, and forthe life of society. The terminator looks like death, and if you 's a death image Linds Hamilton's character faces that image of death or fate, and survives All that has resonance, I hope, with the dark, premonitory character of Reese's future-flashbacks, as I call them, and with the final image of driv- ing off into a storm. I's fate vs. will e 60 JARMUSCH (from page 54) three. But this 1s off news Sul how Strangers unfolds Jarmusch’s new talent in a series of sableaux vivant into which his three seives shatter and sette. Ohio, You see, is not a state of mind, afterall Ie’ a sare of being—Just like the other 49 -HJ. . You're the hottest name in town now Are you geting calls rom the executives? Yea, I am actually, but uh I'm not really interested in doing that right now Why? Because I want to have complete con- «rol over my work and I want to make small steps. I don't wane to jump into something over my head. I don’t want to work witha union crew orhave someone telling me how to cut my film or who's going wo be castin it. And also because | have the opportunity to make my next fone o¢ two projects with European co- productions which give me part or, hopefully, half ownership in my own film So i just makes 2 or more sense to ime to keep it under control and make steps as I'go, instead of jumping into some kind of studio production which is ‘not interesting to me now Can you idenify what influenced the ‘making of Stanger Than Paradise? T have a lot of influences Anything that moves me influences me somehow. 1 take from European and Japanese films and also from America: The char acters are really American. There's something very American about the film and yet formally, it’s not traditional at all, i's very untraditional, ‘That comes from the way I write, which is back- wards: Rather than finding a story that | Want 10 tell and then adding the details, Teollece the details and then try to con. struct a puzzle of story-I have a theme and a kind of mood and the characters but not a plotline that runs straight through. I think that’s partly why the narrative takes the form that it does. My first film (A Permanent Vacation) was similar—and the two things chat 1 am writing now I'm writingin che same way ‘The idea of first having the plot scares me. Thisis more exciting for me, there's something in the process. The story Seats to ell itself to me, rather than me formulating it. When I looked at the film, I thought, That's what this country really looks like Snot like Bucks County, Pennsylvania— but like Akron (where Jarmusch grew up) Yeah, I have a real fondness for those Post-industrial landscapes. There's something realy sad but really beautiful about them I don't know if it's just nostalgia for growing up in Akron, butit is America to me much more than bi cities, or clean forests, or anything like that. Iesextremely ugly, but also find it very beautiful somehow. The joke in the film is that in coming there, Eva (Eszter Balint) experienced thie ‘incredible decline in standards and val. es, life in Budapest was a lot nicer. Yeah. I mean it as a reverse on what | wwe'te told about the quality of life in Bastern Europe: gray, depressing, dustrial. Eva's coming to the new world to start a new life. She has a sense of adventure, but when she gets here she finds this even tone to every place she ‘goesin the country. Very bleak and very depressing. I think that works a lot in favor of her sense of humor in the film, The contrast makes the humor work, T think. Even chough the film wasn’t in- tended to be funny. Both Willie and Eddie were very differ. cent male characters than we're used 10 seeing. Where did you get them? Well, John Lurie and I were discuss- ing a story (that the firs part ofthe film eventually evolved into) and our first | criterion was not to be like other New York films that are being shown in Eu- 4 rope and being called New Wave— whatever that means. We wanted chap acters not associated with any kind of ‘music of fashion scene, And although they're working clas, they're not really | involved in a working class milieu ‘Their values are not the same, They're more like gamblers and drinkers | ‘They're not really workers. Buc they're | in that milieu, They're the kind of char- acters who might meet a the racetrack } somewhere rather than any place fash- ionable. Yeah, they go out to Cleveland with ste hundred and they spend Fifty ‘That's a minor theme—the way money works for them. I's some that you get by stealing, cheating, lying, crime, or by chance. It's not something shat you invest your daily schedule of create the seruceure of your whole life around. Something that you get as you need it. That will probably be a theme in every film T make, Because Pm not: sally in in ch with some kind of ambition. That kind ‘of American dream thing is just not re= ally interesting People in Akron believe in it. When you lived there, did you fit in? No. I was sort of umm, I don't know, withdrawn, Especially in high school, 1:| a forint Pat. that’s when everyone no tension, because people weren't Haoming secial groups and none of aware of any kind of che divaions “them seemed to have anything to do really You kn with me, Ididn'cfecl that had anything have certain in common with them really So, I was own house, 2 pretty much outside of things it You used Eva, as an alien, to parade your vision ofthis country. Did either your leaving Akron or renurning 10 it find its me into this picture? eth, but che fm is about all of the characters, not justher. All three of them are really outsiders. The view we getof ‘America from all of them is very much outside of the expected one. It's about people who are outside. And I guess that soncern must come from my own expe- Ficnces of feeling that way. But it’s also 'mapproach to doing stories that are not 'bout ambition What about ambition don't you like? Well, I don’ like the idea of fashion. gy life around money, or lifestyle Seems just too predictable. ‘There are 80 many other ways of living. There are eople who aren't aspiring to be fashion ‘hotographers «_ I've been getting scripts from Holly: ood that I've been reading just out of uriosity. Some I've refused by theirde- zriptions on thephone But I've read naybe ten of them and every single enipt is concerned with ambition and se. Ifthere isany class consciousness in Xe stories, i's always someone rising he top. Were you a working class kid? No, I'm middle class. My father origi- ally worked, when I lived in Akron, for © ‘oodrich. And then he worked for vari- 25 small businesses and stuff. He has a w degree but he’s never really used tat, He” just been a small business- an Why didn’t you busy in? time being limited ing Class Goes to Heaven whi Sowhen he was at Goodrich he was He was in personne! ‘And it was a working class town tory worker who flips out and goes Yeah, pretty much hhome and starts smashing everything in Estat one reason you were an outsider, his house And while hes dove i ee tase kids denied you as being bener elking about how many hours cris ie "than they were? ic took to buy this TV, oF that stereo I don't really think so, I don't think 10W, everyone aspired to things—two cars, their color TV,—but chat was Well, first of all T hate the idea, 1 'ean, I worked in factories too to pay for ‘my education and stuff, buc uh, I don't ‘know, Ijust can't stand the idea of works ing for other people or having a boss. 1 never gor along, or I was never able to hold jobs for very long because I just didn't like the setup. You know, your ‘There'sa film by Elio Petr, The Work: (1971), in the guy, Gian Maria Volonté, is a s tha, I think i's more of what was ‘eresting of important to me didn’t 0 be what was cool to be inter 2ed in or what was supposed to be Portant. I think it’s more that than 58. I lived a loc in Cuyahoga Falls, a >urb of Akron, where I went co high tool. It’s homogeneous middle, vermiddle, and ‘working class— }.000 people and there's no blacks $no Jews inthe whole city, you know kind ofa ridiculous place. There was amplifier, or this vase.” “Twenty «wo hours.” Smash. It's really beautiful ‘That's sore of how I feel. I'd rather have ‘no money a all than co schedule my whole life around acquiring it ‘That's why I don'c really have a desire to work in Hollywood, even though now Thave the opporcunity—which a loc of people spend their whole lives waiting for and don't get. It feels a little strange to have people offering me a lot of things thac are like, money, but to you know, Porky's cemakes. My only aspiration isto be able to keep working, to be able to pay my rent, and not have to worry about money ‘Thats really my biggest ambition. Ie’s sore of a contradic. tion, in a way. Does tha bother Your family? What? The their ambitions? Yeah. Certainly my fax ther it bothered a lot. Because he wanted me to goo law school, or enter business, or something like that. And it caused a loc of problems, a real separa- tion between my fatherand me. But for some reason now, I think because my father is older, he accepts things much more easily than he used to. And he’s proud that the film is doing well, So he’s not that unhappy. Bur think he would be a loc happier if 1 was a lawyer and “_Jebn Lave in Stanger Than Prndie fae didn't live in this way, Has he been to visit? He's never been in my apartment, but he did come to New York for the film festival to sce the film ‘And how did he react? Well, [haven't really spoken ro them about the film, specifically. My father saw my first film, Permanent Vacation, and said he thought that there wasa eel ‘missing somchow, that there wasn't a story there. He said, “I don't chink I saw the whole thing, did I?" And I said, “Yeah, that’s it!” And he said, ‘Well, f think something's missing from the story.” They seemed to like this film Paradise). They seem to understand it ‘more. Iwas more precise and more of 2 a lea that I didn’t havestory for them How did they react both 10 New York «and your image of ion fm? My father haces New York He doesn’t even like t0 come here It just drives him nuts. He's born and raised in Cleveland He was really happy that we Were going to shoot there, Because of the limitations in time and budget we were considering shooting in Long Is- land City, which could have read Cleve- land. Buc I fele really strongly for some reason in letting the actual place infil trate the actors and the whole crew Somehow. And my father liked that a— lotthaewe shot in Cleveland. Infact, my Parents let us use their house—we had the crew in sleeping bags on the floor, and in the living room, and everything ‘They really liked it, My father helped us alot. My mother did toa. They were real proud while we were making the film, even though they had no idea what i¢ was going to be or what would ever hap- en with ig they were really supportive and excited by the activity. While Iwas watching the film it hit me that its a lot like The Honeymooners Willie and Eddie reminded me of Ed Nor- ton and Ralph Kramden. Was that acei- dental? Yeah. Its. Really, itis. They live in the same kind of conditions, but it was not really conscious on my part. I never ‘even thought about The Honeymooners until aftes T was done shooting and Sara (Driver, whom Jarmusch lives with) was cutting the film and kept making jokes about it. And then I started finding all the connections, too: the way The Hon- ynooners was always shot fiom the same angle: I know they cut to another camera Ir always two camera setups, but ies slways that same angle, that bleak apartment, they don't have a re- frigerator. Sometimes their water doesn't come on. Things like chat 15 there something more “honest” about that America than the affluent one? Well, I think it’s more honest, but I think ie’s very abstracted in the film: What we choose to show is reduced And I chink it’s more honest because itis 8 view of America that exists, chat is more teal for more people than the lossy TV view is But in anything you do in 8 film, as soon as you make selec- tions, you're manipulating the audi- ‘ence’s sense of what's real and what's not That's the whole idea ofa film, so, you know, it's ewo-sided “The form of this film as 2 narrative is so minimal it almost tricks you. It has ¢lements likes traditional plotand it has 62 thece sections, but those sections don’t do. what you would expect: introduce the characters, then some kind of con- flict, and then a resolution. Instead, the narratives very minimal. 1 you stop the film at any point and ask the audience what was going to happen next, they would have no idea. They wouldn't real ly be thinking about it, but would be ‘more concerned with the characters and ‘what's happening to them Okay, so what's Wilie going 10 do in Budapest? don’t know. He's going to try to get ut of there as soon as possible, He doesn't even have his coat with him Soheends up being Eva, but without the “benefit of connections Yeah. He's been working for ten years {0 dissociate himself fom his past—to be sent back is herjoke on him, since he ‘was so mean to her. But there are mo- ‘ments when you feel his emotions and you know he fecls close to her. Well, that's Karma: He gets it back by being sent back Richard Edson didn't getas much press ‘attention ax did John Lurie, but his Eddie Wasa great character. Well, I think the character of Willie is a lite more complex than Eddie, but I like Eddie very much because he’s very warm. It’s the first time that Richard acted and I'm really proud of the charac- terthat we created togetherand proud of Richard's ability t—who's not trained 85 an actor, who's not an actor—to sup- press elements of his own personality which did not fit Eddie's That's really the essence of working toward a good performance How is Eddie out of sync with Edson? Well, you can’e just push him around, he's not someone who does what you cel him. He's pretty cough and preety firm inthe decisions he makes, He's just noc a pushover. He's just not like that. But Eddie is very much like that. He just sort of goes along He really cares for Willie to the point of going along with what Willie says, even when Willie's mean tohim. Ie’snotas important to him as Willie's other qualities that he re- spects There's a truth in their relationship, in the often unacknowledged leadership of ‘one partner ina friendship over the other. I don't know if that’s always the case but chere's something about Willie that Eddie accepts Willie's character as being tha way. ‘That's just kind of the way they are Have you ever been Eddie? No. [don’t think I have really. Probably in some instances, but deft. nitely not Eddie, because I'm pretty in! dependent and have always been. M close friends fee! equal to me in theit decision making and self-respect. T've ‘not really been in the position of having friends imitare me. There's somethi really warm about Eddie, there's some thing really kind about him, that [like lor. [really ike that character. Have you ever been Eva? Think I've been her more, 1 think! Pm closer to that character. She's fone who... don’t know, 'm not sen, ally any of the charactets.’ There's a part! of all of them in me, you know. An that’s part of the story of this film too, , men. H mean, they make decisions based on h presence, Very loosely, bur Eva insti-; sates the decisions they make, directly, ‘or indirectly. And that's sore of another, subtheme in the film. There's some- thing about wornen—at least women in my life—they have been more capable ‘of making decisions than most men, And D've leamed more, especially emo- sionally, from women than from men. ‘That has nothing to do with role models cor anything like thac; I'm pretry mascu- Tine in my interests and in my reactions ‘0 things, but at the same time, I think Tve learned a lot more, I've found more ‘wisdom from women than from men, t There s no paradise, is there? No. Not really, I don't believe in put ‘ing a carot in front of a mule, 1 thin You have to face what is around you Florida, which is supposed to be this retirement paradise, is just a differ- cent vegetation and a slightly different landscape from Cleveland. That's some~ thing that I feel when T travel around, there's a certain continuous tone in ‘America, especially if you don't have a Jot of money. All the motels look alike within a certain price range. Although landscapes change, you're stil going to the same 7-11 store. Ics really that idea of the American dream that I'm not eal- ly interested in. And for that reason and forthese characters, there is no paradise. Ie’ just something that you imagine or ‘hat you construct around yourself to feel more comfortable or secure. But i's just not the reality of things. like these characters: their accept-! ance of things the way they are is impor} tant co me. They're not—they are} alienated but they're not itching to im-# prove their living conditions. ‘They're justlooking fora change, a different card game or something. @