Yes, please let's get together soon. Maybe (do you guys like Italian food?

) you could come to our apartment and join us for dinner? I will ask Nina to set up a time w/you guys so we can do that. Are you still going to the beach?

Thank you for the reference. And thank you for debating this topic with me. As Jelka observed, I would not put our friendship in jeopardy by consciously offending in any way (so feel free to drop it anytime and suggest another) because we really value our friendship.And I actually hope my currently held belief is in error, because that would predict a better scenario for all. But now, in the process of looking for answers to support an argument that they are "just like us only different", I have come to believe that they are not but that they are just different - at the deepest culturally held core values. So I am more pessimistic about the near future (next 50 years) than optimistic. I did read their (Greater Things) page and I have seen several similar. To me it points to the essence of the problem. Because of our own values, we just have a very difficult time to allow the possibility or likelihood of finding that the values held by Islam do not parallel our own Judeo-Christian values. We are so convinced of the intrinsic good of our own values, we cannot easily accept that there are in existence and practice completely different and opposing value systems, and that they are held by a large number of people and that they are far better acquainted with our value system than we with theirs. Here is a link for a similar but (I think more contextually complete and better referenced bib) with a rather different perspective. http://www.studytoanswer.net/islam_myths.html Ironically, both of these web pages are done by Christian evangelical types but (p)reach very different analyses of Koranic verse. I am not sure the argument should even be about what the book says but about what is actually taught, believed and practiced and the ramifications of that. the fundamental question for me is: Can we find enough in common to live in peace? Or are we so culturally different that we will not see peace in our lifetime? If the former how can we make that happen sooner rather than later? If the latter - how can we respond effectively? There is no shortage of instances of people of any faith or tradition committing violence and mayhem. It is and has been done by all cultures and classes, religions and traditions all over the planet. It has been done, of course, not only by Muslims, but by people calling themselves Christians, Jews, Americans, French etc etc. The question we are faced with is how do we get this to change? How can we make this stop? Assuming that your values include a respect for all human life, a belief in a civil order, a freedom from fear, oppression and tyranny for all people. But wait, we learn that these are not necessarily universal values, but rather values of Western civilization descending from Judeo-Christian principles, which we presume to be universal. So it is

conceivable to the western mind that we can teach the ideal to all, that we can set an example of what we consider positive behavior and we can hold collective expectations that a well ordered society shall be based on and governed by these concepts. We can teach those whose acts are deemed unacceptable (either immoral, criminal or taboo by our collective standard) to alter their behavior, to reform, and conform to the rules and expectations or face consequences. That is the function of society and we expect that collective will and its extended social pressure to work on behalf of that society. However, that concept is based on a well established convention of collective morality and so then, here is the problem: what if your collective morality butts up against a very different collective morality; one so radically and inherently different, that by western standards, it cannot be understood to be moral at all? That it includes no universal respect for life (if that life is infidel, or even a female of the same religion) no rights to freedom from fear, tyranny or persecution. No proscription against the killing of innocent persons, no proscription against depriving others of their life or liberty or property? No protection for women or children who may be used as chattel, bought and sold, or slain for the pleasure of their keepers? No respect for, nor right to, any person to hold an opposing viewpoint without the threat of violence against that person. No command to keep and honor a vow, or an agreement or treaty (if such be with any infidel). No prohibitions against these acts, but rather an exhortation and command to carry out each and all of these acts against any who remain non-believers (infidels) in the Koran and the Hadiths, by Mohamed's preaching and allegedly Allah's command? Where does one begin to come to an agreement (which does not need to be honored) to have respect for each others faith and ideals (when the teaching is directly opposed to such an accommodation) to have peace (when the command is to jihad or war against non-believers) to have protection for human life (when the religious law specifies otherwise). For better or worse, one can easily (and correctly) argue that western civilization has not always adhered to its professed ideals. There have been countless barbarian acts performed throughout history, by each and every generation of western society. While these bad things have and continue to happen, we have never adhered for long to any belief whereby it was sanctioned as ideal. Yes, we strayed from our ideals, we often failed to live up to our creed, yet we held to that creed for the long term and as a society we have sought to endorse and conform to that ideal and we have demonstrably benefited from that. Of course one can find some examples in the Koran that would appear to be in congruence with the western JudeoChristian principles, but the problem with these isolated and sporadic occurrences is that one would have to reject or overlook an overwhelming body of specific and entirely different passages which prevail as the predominate essence of the Koran. Nevertheless, today, in the western world, while you may still find abundant examples of cruelty, tyranny and violence, yet, because of these collective western Judeo-Christian ideals you will also find

quantitatively that there are more people living in greater peace and freedom with less fear and desperation than ever in history. There is additionally, and measurably more charity, education, participatory government, freedom of creed and racial and sexual equality, freedom of choice and economic opportunity than ever before in history. By contrast, in the Muslim world, there is not one predominantly Muslim country that lives in peace with its bordering countries. they have neither a value for education for the masses (only the select few) nor for participatory government (with some few exceptions inc. Pakistan and Turkey) no freedom of expression, little racial nor any religious tolerance, no ideal for equality of the sexes. For the most part, the overwhelming majority live in poverty, ignorance and religious tyranny. And it would seem, that by their incendiary speeches, the imams would like to do whatever they can to incite their faithful to do every violence toward the west and seek to deprive us collectively of all of those freedoms, equalities and privileges and replace that with sharia law. Education should be the key to which a society may be exposed to the ideals which can empower the people to improve the lives of all of its members. However, what hope is there for such education, or hope for such change, when at the deepest cultural and societal levels there is, in place, a religious taboo against any such teachings and reforms that will conflict with the teachings, commands and verses of the sacred Koran? Where the prophet's words are used to bring destruction to any who disagree? That is the basic problem. As people concerned for our own safety and security, well being and happiness, as well as our desire that the rest of the world's population live in peace, and prosperity, it is incumbent upon us to learn (abandon our collective ignorance) and become acquainted with what our neighbors believe, and practice. Not what their apologists say (because unfortunately, they seem to understand us much better than we seem to understand them) because of what they think, that we want to hear - but rather, what they really believe and, on what they actually base their daily decisions, as well as, their short and long term intentions. We may find enough common ground and desire for harmony, among the peoples of each culture, to bring about some understanding and mutual respect, which can lead to a lasting peace and a better world. But if that does not happen, we won't benefit by failing to understand with whom we are dealing and what we are up against. Anyway, thanks for participating and remember please do not let me offend - or rather, if i do, let me make clear that our friendship is more important to me than any argument. Looking forward to seeing you guys (hopefully) this week? Unless you go to the beach, then next week> Ciao

Jim & Nina