When Did God Beget his Son?

Most living today believes this occurred at the Immaculate Conception. With this study using all scripture evidence that exists in history and the world to determine if someone played with the record of this event to support what should not be supported. I will be objective by illustrating all the information I have found on this topic and simply asking questions of Common sense to provoke thinking. You'll see that as I present this case, I will be using testimony that existed before the Roman Church made their finalized version of the New Testament gospels in 397 A.D. at the council of Carthage. The gospel texts used are from the 4 gospels and also a gospel that was circulated by Rome before 397 AD.

Where did the idea of Immaculate Conception originate?

Testimony from Why Jews Dont believe Jesus was the Messiah. http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_messiah3.htm VIRGIN BIRTH The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an " alma " as giving birth. The word " alma " has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.
History tells us that the Queen Mother of Heaven (pagan Deity) immaculately conceived. This deity was being worshipped long before Mary (The mother of the baby who would be called Christ) was born. We know this Queen Mother of Heaven worship still continues to this day through the Catholic Church calling her Mary the queen of Heaven. The evidence of this will be illustrated clearly in this correspondence as it unfolds using Catholic testimony and scripture to make the case. The Gospel as written today states that only Mary played a part in the conception of Jesus. Lets take a look. Here is the testimony from Matt; words are highlighted in

green, blue and red for a reason that will be evident very soon. Testimony in Black Font represents what was added by Early Roman Gentile scribes to support an ancient pagan belief. I dont make this claim without providing credible evidence supported by Scripture that is in the world and prophecy (Testimony of Jesus)

Matthew 1: 18-25 NKJV Christ Born of Mary

18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these

things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins. 22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,[d] which is translated, God with us. 24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, 25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son.[e] And he called His name JESUS. Here is what Luke says; again the color font will be important very soon: Luke 1:26 NKJV 26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgins name was Mary. 28 And having come in, the angel said to her, Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women![c] 29 But when she saw him,[d] she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end. 34 Then Mary said to the angel, How can this be, since I do not know a man? 35 And the angel answered and said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God. 36 Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren. 37 For with God nothing will be impossible. 38 Then Mary said, Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word. And the angel departed from her. Here is the Gospel text from the Monastery: Notice carefully the color font as you read in full to see what the Roman Church tried to eliminate. Testimony in Red Font represents what was removed by the Early Roman Church: http://reluctant-messenger.com/essene/gospel_1.htm Lection II Testimony from Gospel of Holy 12. The Immaculate Conception of Jesus the Christ AND in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God, unto a city of Galilee , named Nazareth , to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 2. Now Joseph was a just and rational Mind, and he was skilled in all manner of work in wood and in stone. And Mary was a tender and discerning Soul, and she wrought veils for the temple. And they were both pure before God; and of them both was Jesu-Maria who is called the Christ. 3. And the angel came in unto her and said, Hail, Mary, thou that art highly

favored, for the Mother of God is with thee: blessed art thou among women and blessed be the fruit of thy womb. 4. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favor with God and, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb and bring forth a child, and He shall be great and shalt be called a Son of the Highest. 5. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 6. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her The Holy Spirit shall come upon Joseph thy Spouse, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee, O Mary, therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Christ, the Child of God, and his Name on earth shalt be called Jesu-Maria, for he shall save the people from their sins, whosoever shall repent and obey his Law. 7. Therefore ye shall eat no flesh, nor drink strong drink, for the child shall be consecrated unto God from its mother's womb, and neither flesh nor strong drink shall he take, nor shall razor touch his head. 8. And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. For with God no thing shall be impossible. And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her. 9. And in the same day the angel Gabriel appeared unto Joseph in a dream and said unto him, Hail, Joseph, thou that art highly favored, for the Fatherhood of God is with thee. Blessed art thou among men and blessed be the fruit of thy loins. 10. And as Joseph thought upon these words he was troubled, and the angel of the Lord said unto him, Fear not, Joseph, thou Son of David, for thou hast found favor with God, and behold thou shalt beget a child, and thou shalt call his name Jesu-Maria for he shall save his people from their sins. 11. Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was written in the prophets saying, Behold a Maiden shall conceive and be with child and shall bring forth a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God Within Us. 12. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel had bidden him, and went in unto Mary, his espoused bride, and she conceived in her womb the Holy One. What I find most interesting is that the monastery Gospel text uses the Synonym of the word that Jews claim is the literal translation of the word ALMA. Jews say young woman Gospel of Holy 12 says Maiden, Here it is again. Jews would know. It was their language.
The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an alma as giving birth. The word alma " has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

All through the bible the bloodline of Christ was passed down through the man. Lets take a look at the Genealogy of Christ; area of interest is high lighted. Luke 3:23 The Genealogy of Jesus Christ

23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat,[d]the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Janna, the son of Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathiah, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathiah, the son of Semei, the son of Joseph, the son of Judah, 27 the son of Joannas, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmodam, the son of Er, 29 the son of Jose, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonan, the son of Eliakim, 31 the son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon, 33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God. Here is more testimony in the Catholic NT which States Jesus was from Joseph. John 1:45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wroteJesus of Nazareth , the son of Joseph. John 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, I have come down from heaven? These last two scriptures do not say Step son. They also do not say supposed as we see in the Genealogy just above it. The messiah did not come down from Heaven until his Baptism. We will see clear evidence of this from prophecy later. Many Jews today reject Jesus because of the Pagan idea that Mary remained a Virgin during and after the conception of Jesus. Are we as people who love God restricting the spread of the Gospel to many who need it most but reject it because it does not speak according to the Prophetic testimony of God? As you have seen, I dont make this question without providing strong evidence to provoke the question. John 7:42 Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the seed of David and from the town of Bethlehem, where David was? Remember when we showed the Genealogy of Jesus and it said he was the supposed son of Joseph? Here is the clear evidence the Roman Church removed the true testimony to support pagan ideology for the Queen Mother of Heaven Concept. Testimony from the Gospel of Holy 12 Lection VIII

8. These things were done in Bethabara, beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing. And Jesus began at this time to be thirty years of age, being after the flesh indeed the Son of Joseph and Mary; but after the Spirit. The Christ, the Son of God, the Father and Mother Eternal, as was declared by the Spirit of holiness with power. 9. AND Joseph was the son of Jacob and Elisheba, and Mary was the daughter of Eli (called Joachim) and Anna, who were the children of David and Bathsheba, of Judah and Shela, of Jacob and Leah, of Isaac and Rebecca, of Abraham and Sarah, of Seth and Maat, of Adam and Eve, who were the children of God. Lection X Verse 8 Scripture equivalent to John 1:45 8. THE day following, Jesus goeth forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me. Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. Philip findeth Nathanael, who is called Bar Tholmai, and saith unto him, We have found him, Of whom Moses in the law and the Prophets did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph and Mary, And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip said unto him, Come and see. So the Big Question is this. Did the Early Gentile Christians Blend Queen mother of Heaven worship into Christianity by Taking out Josephs role in the Conception of Christ? This presents a very good possibility. Remember those three prophecies I talked about at the beginning that supported that Joseph played a role in the conception of Christ? If we are going to use prophecy to prove our points we should use all prophecy concerning the topic of his Messiahs birth. Genesis 49:10 10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes; And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.

Isaiah 11
The Reign of Jesses Offspring
1 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots. Any Jew can tell us that the Messiah was going to come through the blood line of a man and as we can see from prophecy and scripture that was not adulterated by Rome concerning this event we are able to see that Christ did come through both man and female making Him the Son of Man. Question is this! When did God beget his Son? When does Prophecy say this would Happen? Lection VIII 2. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water; and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and a bright cloud stood over him, and from behind the cloud Twelve Rays of light, and thence in the form of a Dove, the Spirit of God

descending and lighting upon him. And, lo, a voice from heaven saying, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; this day have I begotten thee. Prophecy fulfillment of Psalms 2:7; also confirmed in Acts 13:33 When examining the Daniel 70 weeks prophecy, it becomes clear that this prophecy does not tell us of the literal conception and birth of the child. The Messiah did not arrive until God Begot the Messiah giving a great deal of meaning to the 70 weeks prophecy and the purpose of Baptism or rebirth (Born again). Being that this occurred in 26AD long after Jesus was born in the flesh there is a very significant spiritual meaning behind why God waited until this time to beget His Son. If its fulfilled prophecy it must be true since prophecy is testimony of Jesus Old and New Testament; unless we lost the meaning in translation as in the case of Isaiah 7:14 where the word Virgin is used instead of Maiden/young woman. Or we lost the true meaning because of scripture deletion by the Roman church in 397 A.D. at the council of Carthage. The G12 (gospel of holy 12) Scriptures tell us both Mary and Joseph were pure before God and both the womb and seed of David were blessed by God to come together to form the Son of Man who would be called Christ. Why do bible scriptures exist that state clearly Jesus was the son of Joseph and Mary? One complete Gospel repeats many times that He was the Son of Man. Why does prophecy testify of this, but we reject the clear testimony that bares witness to Christ being the Messiah when this testimony would bring many Jews to understand that Jesus is the Messiah? Why is Mary not a part of the genealogy from Adam? Why do prophecies exist that state the messiah would be fathered by the blood line of Judah and David if only Mary played a role and the only evidence she is from this bloodline herself is contained in G12? If Joseph played no part in the conception of Jesus, why then does the bible record the Genealogy from Adam to Joseph if he was merely a Step Dad? We know Jesus had brothers and sisters even though Roman Tradition speculates the claim she never had children. The evidence is overwhelming that Joseph played a role in the birth of Christ and the infiltration of Pagan beliefs through the mutilation of scripture by the early Roman Christians has hindered the spread of the word of God. By misrepresenting Christ in literature, we are hindering the spread of the Gospel and rejecting the testimony he has given us to set free those which are bound. We, because of Tradition are denying to those who need Jesus most; Men of common sense who know their language better than we do. God is giving us the answers to reach everyone in the world, but we are rejecting it merely on tradition or lack of understanding, which is why much of the testimony presented in Gospel of Holy 12, was taken out of the bible in the first place by the Roman Church. Last but not least here is one more area of interest is Highlighted from a geneology: Genealogy from Matt 1 1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham: 2 Abraham begot Isaac, Isaac begot Jacob, and Jacob begot Judah and his brothers. 3

Judah begot Perez and Zerah by Tamar, Perez begot Hezron, and Hezron begot Ram. 4 Ram begot Amminadab, Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon. 5 Salmon begot Boaz by Rahab, Boaz begot Obed by Ruth, Obed begot Jesse, 6 and Jesse begot David the king. David the king begot Solomon by her who had been the wife[a] of Uriah. 7 Solomon begot Rehoboam, Rehoboam begot Abijah, and Abijah begot Asa.[b] 8 Asa begot Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat begot Joram, and Joram begot Uzziah. 9 Uzziah begot Jotham, Jotham begot Ahaz, and Ahaz begot Hezekiah. 10 Hezekiah begot Manasseh, Manasseh begot Amon,[c] and Amon begot Josiah. 11 Josiah begot Jeconiah and his brothers about the time they were carried away to Babylon . 12 And after they were brought to Babylon , Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel. 13 Zerubbabel begot Abiud, Abiud begot Eliakim, and Eliakim begot Azor. 14 Azor begot Zadok, Zadok begot Achim, and Achim begot Eliud. 15 Eliud begot Eleazar, Eleazar begot Matthan, and Matthan begot Jacob. 16 And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called Christ. I say again. If Joseph had no part in the conception, what purpose did it serve to list the Genealogy of Joseph? Where is the proof of Marys Genealogy from David? He who has an Ear let him hear what follows! Pros and cons: With Joseph playing a role in the conception of Jesus it eliminates any credibility of the Queen mother of Heaven apparition to deceive people as a wolf in sheeps clothing. It also opens the acceptance of the Messiah to many people who have rejected him based solely on the concept of pagan origins regarding the Virgin Birth. By accepting the Virgin birth we allow what is going to follow to propagate in the world and what Follows is not something Jesus taught. Does the bible have a problem with Mary Worship? Many Catholics Claim they do not Worship Mary but only Venerate. Lets take a good look at the Roman tradition side of this argument then the bible side to have closure.

NUMEROUS POPES DECLARE MARY SAVES SOULS

Leo XIII, Jucunda Semper, 1894: "When Mary offered herself completely to God together with her Son in the temple, she was already sharing with him the painful atonement on behalf of the human race ... (at the foot of cross) she willingly offered him up to the divine justice, dying with him in her heart, pierced by the sword of sorrow." Pius X, Ad Diem Illum, 1904: "Owing to the union of suffering and purpose existing between Christ and Mary, she merited to become most worthily the reparatrix of the lost world, and for this reason, the dispenser of ALL favors which Jesus acquired for us by his death . . . Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia, 1918: "To such extent did Mary suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her

Son for : man's salvation . . that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ." Plus XI, 1935, in a prayer to close a jubilee, we find the first use of the word Coredemptrix by a pope: "O Mother of love and mercy who, when thy sweetest Son was consummating the Redemption of the human race on in the altar of the cross, didst stand next to him suffering with him as a Coredemptrix." Plus XII, in a radio broadcast in 1946: "Mary, for having been associated with the King of Martyrs in the ineffable work of human Redemption as Mother and cooperatrix, she remains forever associated with him, with an almost unlimited power, in the distribution of graces which flow from the Redemption." John XXIII, Vatican II's Lumen Gentium, 1965. Paul VI, Christi Matri. "The Church ... been accustomed to have recourse to that most ready intercessor, her Mother Mary ... For as St. Irenaeus says, she 'has become the cause of salvation for the whole human race" John Paul II, Mother of the Redeemer, 1987. Pius IX, Ubi Primum, 1849: "For God has committed to Mary the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that THROUGH HER are obtained every hope, every grace, and ALL SALVATION. For this is his will, that we obtain everything through Mary." Leo XIII, Supremi Apostolatus, 1883: "O Mary, the guardian of our peace and the dispensatrix of heavenly graces." Plus X, Ad Diem Illum, 1904: "It was granted to the august Virgin to be together with her Only-begotten Son the most powerful Mediatrix and Conciliatrix of the whole world. So Christ is the source . . . Mary, however, as St. Bernard justly remarks, is the channel, or she is the neck by which the Body is united to the Head... through which ALL spiritual gifts are communicated to his Body." Benedict XV, In a decree on Joan of Are: "In every miracle we must recognize the mediation of Mary, through whom, according to God's will, every grace and blessing comes to us." Plus XI, Miserentissimus Redemptor, 1928: "Confiding in her intercession with Jesus, "the one Mediator of God and man, who wished to associate his own Mother with himself as the advocate of sinners, as the dispenser and mediatrix of grace." Plus XII, Superiore Anno, 1940: "As St. Bernard declares, 'it is the will of God that we obtain favors through Mary, let everyone hasten to have recourse to Mary." John XXIII, see Vatican II, Lumen Gentium. Paul VI, see Lumen Gentium. John Paul II, Dives in Misericordia, 1980, quoting Lumen Gentium, "In fact, by being assumed into heaven she has not laid aside the office of salvation but by the manifold intercession she continues to obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation."

Our Lady of the Pillar ~ http://www.christusrex.org/www1/apparitions/pr00001.htm

The Blessed Virgin Mary began making appearances to others of the new Christian faith even before she died. Witness Our Lady of the Pillar by James the (Greater) Apostle in Saragossa in northeast Spain, ca. 40 AD. The Blessed Mother appeared to the despondent missionary while he was deep in prayer, and presented him with column of jasper and a small wooden statue of her self. She instructed him to build a church there, the first ever dedicated to the Virgin Mary: "This place is to be my house and this image and column shall be the title and altar of the temple that you shall build." James later returned to Jerusalem, where he was executed by Herod Agrippa in 44 AD, thus becoming the first apostle to be martyred. The wooden statue and jasper column still reside at Saragossa and are displayed on special occasions in the Compostella cathedral. Ever wonder if this could have anything to do with the pagan goddess/ Satans deception turned into a Mary false hope???? This could be where the Queen mother of heaven concept infiltrated Roman ideology. Leviticus 26:1 You shall not make idols for yourselves; neither a carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves; nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it; for I am the LORD your God Leviticus 19:31 31 Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God. Is the apparition of Mary a familiar spirit? Is not all who die the death of flesh in righteousness only sleeping and awaiting the second coming of Christ on the last day where the heavens and the earth will pass away? First of all there is absolutely no evidence that James ever went to Spain. More than that; he would have never made or accepted an image since that is grossly in defiance of the second commandment. This story you saw above that an apostle received this sacred pillar and graven image from Mary before she died, is an absolute Lie and is published on Catholic Webpages. Why? Did she really appear to Christians or pagans who built a temple? Was the temple converted to a church of Idol Harlot Christian/pagan beliefs? Harlot being the correct word to use here since that is what you get when you mix a good church with a church

that worships IDOLS. God is a jealous God. If we are his bride and go to false Gods then we are playing the harlot in His eyes. Could it be that all this time, what they thought was Mary, has been a deception of Satan from the ancient past that deceived even the Jews? She presented herself as a wolf in sheeps clothing then, could she be doing the same thing today? Lets see what scripture says: Here we see the Queen of heaven being worshipped long before Mary was ever born. Could the lady of the pillar have been the same deception that deceived the Israelites in the Old Testament? Jeremiah 44: 15-23 15 Then all the men who knew that their wives had burned incense to other gods, with all the women who stood by, a great multitude, and all the people who dwelt in the land of Egypt, in Pathros, answered Jeremiah, saying: 16 As for the word that you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD, we will not listen to you! 17 But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem . For then we had plenty of food, were well-off, and saw no trouble. 18 But since we stopped burning incense to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by the sword and by famine. 19 The women also said,And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did we make cakes for her, to worship her, and pour out drink offerings to her without our husbands permission? 20 Then Jeremiah spoke to all the peoplethe men, the women, and all the people who had given him that answersaying: 21 The incense that you burned in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, you and your fathers, your kings and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and did it not come into His mind? 22 So the LORD could no longer bear it, because of the evil of your doings and because of the abominations which you committed. Therefore your land is a desolation, an astonishment, a curse, and without an inhabitant, as it is this day. 23 Because you have burned incense and because you have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD or walked in His law, in His statutes or in His testimonies, therefore this calamity has happened to you, as at this day.

What are IDOLS

a good topic, but if your going to ask what are Idols, start off with God's very clear definition of what they are.... God gave Moses the law, and told him to teach the people exactly what an idol is, and the answer is in Deut. 4!!!!! There is no misinterpretation here folks, it is straight from the mouth of God and leaves NO doubt as to WHAT constitutes an idol..... And even explains what effect worshiping a man made idol will have on us, all I can say is that I serve an amazing God!! I will start a few verses back before the definition just so you can get a feel for the context for what Moses is saying here. He is explaining the law to the people and reminding them of their experience when they personally heard God spoke his law from

Jebel el lawz

11 Then you came near and stood at the foot of the mountain, and the mountain burned with fire to the midst of heaven, with darkness, cloud, and thick darkness. 12 And the LORD spoke to you out of the midst of the fire. You heard the sound of the words, but saw no form; you only heard a voice. 13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. 14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might observe them in the land which you cross over to possess. Keep in Mind God did not show his form because he did not want man making images and bowing down to them. If my words are false then what is next would not be in scripture. 15 Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, 16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, 17 the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, 18 the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground or the likeness of any fish that is in the water beneath the earth. 19 And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the LORD your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage. 20 But the LORD has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, out of Egypt , to be His people, an inheritance, as you are this day. 21 Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and swore that I would not cross over the Jordan and that I would not enter the good land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance. 22 But I must die in this land, I must not cross over the Jordan ; but you shall cross over and possess that good land. 23 Take heed to yourselves, lest you forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of anything which the LORD your God has forbidden you. 24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. 25 When you beget children and grandchildren and have grown old in the land, and act corruptly and make a carved image in the form of anything, and do evil in the sight of the LORD your God to provoke Him to anger, 26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that you will soon utterly perish from the land which you cross over the Jordan to possess; you will not prolong your days in it, but will be utterly destroyed. Isaiah 44: 9 9 Those who make an image, all of them are useless, And their precious things shall not profit; They are their own witnesses; They neither see nor know, that they may be ashamed. 10 Who would form a god or mold an image Thatprofits him nothing? Acts 19:26 Moreover you see and hear that not only at Ephesus, but throughout almost all Asia, this

Paul has persuaded and turned away many people, saying that they are not gods which are made with hands. Judges 18:14 Then the five men who had gone to spy out the country of Laish answered and said to their brethren, Do you know that there are in these houses an ephod, household idols, a carved image, and a molded image? Now therefore, consider what you should do. 2 Chronicles 24:18 Therefore they left the house of the LORD God of their fathers, and served wooden images and idols; and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem because of their trespass. 2 Chronicles 33:2-6 2 But he did evil in the sight of the LORD, according to the abominations of the nations whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel . 3 For he rebuilt the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down; he raised up altars for the Baals, and made wooden images; and he worshiped all the host of heaven[a] and served them. 4 He also built altars in the house of the LORD, of which the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall My name be forever. 5 And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD. 6 Also he caused his sons to pass through the fire in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom; he practiced soothsaying, used witchcraft and sorcery, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke Him to anger.

Now when he was in affliction, he implored the LORD his God, and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers, 13 and prayed to Him; and He received his entreaty, heard his supplication, and brought him back to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD was God. 14 After this he built a wall outside the City of David on the west side of Gihon, in the valley, as far as the entrance of the Fish Gate; and it enclosed Ophel, and he raised it to a very great height. Then he put military captains in all the fortified cities of Judah . 15 He took away the foreign gods and the idol from the house of the LORD, Psalm 97:7 Let all be put to shame who serve carved images, who boast of idols.

15 Then it shall be for a man to burn, For he will take some of it and warm himself; Yes, he kindles it and bakes bread; Indeed he makes a god and worships it; He makes it a carved image, and falls down to it. Jeremiah 8:19 Listen! The voice, The cry of the daughter of my people From a far country: Is not the LORD in Zion ? Is not her King in her? Why have they provoked Me to anger With their carved images With foreign idols?

Jeremiah 50:38 A drought is against her waters, and they will be dried up. For it is the land of carved images, And they are insane with their idols. Habakkuk 2:18 What profit is the image, that its maker should carve it, The molded image, a teacher of lies, That the maker of its mold should trust in it, To make mute idols?
Here are a few evident Facts of "Queen Mother of Heaven worship" that the Church of Rome teaches its flock. "Membership in the Militia means complete dedication to the Kingdom of God and to the salvation of souls through Mary Immaculate." -Pope John Paul II "We have an advocate in Mary that the father, Son, and Holy Spirit cannot say no to. It is impossible for them to say no to her! -Fr. Stephan Scheier Pope John Paull II has 'dedicated himself and his Pontificate to Our Lady.' He bears the letter "M" for Mary in his coat of arms. And his personal motto, which is embroidered on the side of his robes in Latin is the following: "TOTUS TUUS SUM MARIA", which in English translates to: "MARY, I'M ALL YOURS." For those that think the "Totus Tuus Sum Maria" is a fictitious proclamation of Pope John Paul II, see this excerpt from a Los Angeles Times News Article. "By awarding the Virgin a central place in the cathedral's narrative, the archdiocese is keeping faith with a long, if fluctuating, Catholic and Orthodox tradition of devotion to Our Lady, a tradition enjoying a resurgence under Pope John Paul II. (The pope's personal motto, "Totus tuus sum, Maria," or "I am all yours, Mary," reflects his belief that the Virgin intervened to save his life from an assassin's bullet in 1981 so that he could help defeat European communism.)" LATIMES.com Sept 1, 2002 By REED JOHNSON, Times Staff Writer (Click here to see entire article ) the Below table can be found on "www.catholicconcerns.com" The following table compares the Mary of Roman Catholic theology and religious practice with the Biblical portrayal of Mary and with the goddess which is worshipped by Wiccans and modern pagans. My information about Wicca comes from the book "Wicca: Satan's Little White Lie" by Bill Schnoebelen (who was the high priest of a Wiccan coven before he became a Christian), the "World Book," the on-line version of "The Encyclopedia Brittanica," and numerous web sites. BIBLICAL MARY CATHOLIC MARY THE GODDESS Humble and obedient. Calls The Pope officially gave Mary the title herself "the handmaid of "Queen of Heaven" and established a the Lord." feast day honoring Mary, Queen of Heaven. Knew she needed a savior: "Immaculate Conception" (Mary was "And my spirit hath rejoiced conceived sinless, without original sin) in God my saviour." (Luke and "All-Holy" (Mary lived a sinless life). 1:47) Normal wife and mother who had other children. "Perpetual Virginity" (Jesus' brothers and sisters are considered to be cousins). Wiccans call their goddess the "Queen of Heaven". Goddesses don't need salvation. They make the rules. Goddesses don't have human children.

No biblical evidence that Mary didn't die like a normal person. Jesus told John to take Mary into his home and take care of her as if she was his own mother. Normal woman.

"Glorious Assumption" (Mary was bodily Goddesses don't die. taken up into Heaven). Catholics are the adopted children of Mary. "Woman behold your son" (John 19:26) is taken to apply literally to every Catholic. Sometimes pictured standing on a crescent moon, wearing a crown or with a circle of stars around her head. Supernatural (apparitions accompanied by miracles and healings). Can make Jesus do things. A full page newspaper ad showing Mary and Jesus says, "He hasn't denied her anything in 2,000 years. What would you have her ask Him?" This is not official Catholic doctrine but it is a widespread attitude which is encouraged by pious literature. Apparitions of "Mary" have promised that if people wear certain objects (such as a Scapular or Miraculous Medal) or say certain prayers then they are guaranteed to go to Heaven. The Catholic Church has not officially approved of these practices, but it has also not discouraged them. Witches are the adopted, "hidden children" of the Queen of Heaven. Moon goddess.

Normal woman. Points people to Jesus. Mary said, "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it." (John 2:5)

Supernatural. Points to herself. Wants to be worshipped.

Knew that she needed a savior. (Luke 1:47)

Invoked to make supernatural things happen through witchcraft (the use of special objects and special verbal formulas). Goddesses don't need a savior.

Roman Catholic Cardinal Gibbons said... "Do you ask me, is Mary willing to assist you? Does she really take an interest in your welfare? Or is she so much absorbed by the fruitation of God as to be indifferent to our miseries? "Can a woman forget her infant so as not to have pity on the fruit of her womb"? (Isaiah 49:15), Even so Mary will not forget us" "Faith of our Fathers, By Cardinal James Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore , page 225, 1893 edition. Let's see what Isaiah really says: "Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? YEA, they may forget, Yet I will not forget thee" Isaiah 49:15 Why do Catholics believe they have authority to change what God has spoken? This is a clear misrepresentation of the words of God. Is that authority given to them by God in scripture, or the Catholic re-write of scripture and the elimination of the Testimony of Jesus? Ask any Catholic living today by which scripture Catholic Authority is defined. They will probably say, Thou art Peter and upon this rock, I will build my church. They almost have a case for themselves unless they gave themselves this authority through scripture by rewriting it. Here is an older version of this text see for yourself what it states about the true rock.

Lection XLIV The Confession of the Twelve Christ the True Rock 1. AGAIN Jesus sat near the sea, in a circle of twelve palm trees, where he oft resorted, and the Twelve and their fellows came unto him, and they sat under the shade of the trees, and the holy One taught them sitting in their midst. 2. And Jesus said unto them, Ye have heard what men in the world say concerning me, but whom do ye say that I am? Peter rose up with Andrew his brother and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, who descendeth from heaven and dwelleth in the hearts of them who believe and obey unto righteousness. And the rest rose up and said, each after his own manner, these words are true, so we believe. 3. And Jesus answered them saying, blessed are ye my twelve who believe, for flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto you, but the spirit of God which dwelleth in you. I indeed am the way, the Truth and the Life; and the Truth understandeth all things. 4. All truth is in God, and I bear witness unto the truth. I am the true Rock, and on this Rock do I build my Church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it, and out of this Rock shall flow rivers of living water to give life to the peoples of the earth. 5. Ye are my chosen twelve. In me, the Head and Corner stone, are the twelve foundations of my house builded on the rock, and on you in me shall my Church be built, and in truth and righteousness shall my Church be established. 6. And ye shall sit on twelve thrones and send forth light and truth to all the twelve tribes of Israel after the Spirit, and I will be with you, even unto the end of the world. 7. But there shall arise after you, men of perverse minds who shall through ignorance or through craft, suppress many things which I have spoken unto you, and lay to me things which I never taught, sowing tares among the good wheat which I have given you to sow in the world. 8. Then shall the truth of God endure the contradiction of sinners, for thus it hath been, and thus it will be. But the time cometh when the things which they have hidden shall be revealed and made known and the truth shall make free those which were bound. 9. One is your Master, all ye are brethren, and one is not greater than another in the place which I have given unto you, for ye have one Master, even Christ, who is over you and with you and in you, and there is no inequality among my twelve, or their fellows. 10. All are equally near unto me. Strive ye not therefore for the first place, for ye are all first, because ye are the foundation stones and pillars of the Church, built on the truth which is in me and in you, and the truth and the law shall ye establish for all, as shall be given unto you. 11. Verily when ye and your fellows agree together touching anything in my Name, I am in the midst of you and with you. 12. Woe is the time when the spirit of the world entereth into the Church, and my doctrines and precepts are made void through the corruption of men and of women. Woe is the world when the Light is hidden. Woe is the world when these things shall be. So as you can clearly see with testimony preserved in the Monastery Gospel text and existing scripture and historical testimony, the preserved text actually opens up Jesus Christ to the Jews who have rejected him because of the Pagan re-write by the Roman Church contained in the testimony of Luke and Matthew. Both testimonies being

authored by Rome in 397 AD as are Any Catholics claim to the NT. Was this done for the fulfillment of Prophecy? Yes! God truly guided the formation of the Bible for prophecy he spoke to be fulfilled then He preserved other testimonies outside of the bible so we could see the full scope of prophecy fulfillment 7. But there shall arise after you, men of perverse minds who shall through ignorance or through craft, suppress many things which I have spoken unto you, and lay to me things which I never taught, sowing tares among the good wheat which I have given you to sow in the world. 8. Then shall the truth of God endure the contradiction of sinners, for thus it hath been, and thus it will be. But the time cometh when the things which they have hidden shall be revealed and made known, and the truth shall make free those which were bound. Hope this letter blesses your ministry as you reach out to the world to spread the Gospel of Christ Blessings my friends, Todd M. Vetter