CyanCat: But is it the sessions he has devoured, or all the one he has and ever

will (because he is, after all, "already here")? Might be important in his defeat - if there's a finite number within that sphere and it's the latter option, it might mean he is predestined to be stopped at some point, too. Fits with Homestuck themes. On the other hand, if it's just everything he's devoured until now... less important, perhaps, but it could indicate why he has to be stopped now or time/space travel happens to find LE before any of that happens, or... something.

Myself: Something tells me it's all the sessions up too that point. He can already there, but, in that present time, he's just simply there. As in, it's him at that point in his messed up time-line. But, if it's the other case, and there are finite sessions in the sphere, then we have already discovered his fate. Does anyone else find 'finite' a difficult word to pronounce?

CyanCat: That would make sense. So maybe this is the last opportunity to defeat LE
before he becomes too powerful somehow? I know it has to be done through glitches, but if this is a finite point on his timeline, it could still be an important moment. Like before a doomed timeline. Now that I think about it, since LE exists now, LE had to also have existed at points in his past up until now... so they couldn't just go pack to an earlier point in his existence and stop him then. Or could they? It could screw up all sorts of things, though (speaking of doomed timelines). Might be interesting. Doubt it'll happen.

Myself: I don't think they could, even if they wanted too. To follow the trail of LE, you'd need access too every session. This is unlikely, and you would also need a starting point too know where he would be at his weakest. Not to mention that Time players can only go back and forth in time in their current session/own timeline, so, unless that player has connections time-wise with beginning LE, they can't go back and stop him. Gaming abstractions do not provide anything either. They are almost all inuniverse or cross-universe. So, LE can't be defeated at an earlier point in time. Just in that session he is in. But he has cleverly mastermind a further defence. The more he devours, the more powerful he gets, and, because he comes into a session upon its death, he enters unchallenged, and all future sessions he enters would have a greater challenge winning, should he give them the chance to fight him. Lord English is one serious bad guy.

CyanCat: There is sort of a way to access every session: the Furthest Ring could do that, right? The Green Sun, at least, is outside of sessions and universes. It's not completely unnavigable, either, apparently. It's probably too late for me to get this entirely right but didn't Dave get a map from the Horrorterrors or something that allowed the piloting of Derse's moon to where the Green Sun needed to be... I don't think it's likely to happen, but I don't think it is theoretically impossible, either. That is, it could be done, it just won't be. If that is all the universes LE has devoured so far in that staff, either he isn't going in order of creation or the Squiddles weren't the first - yes, I know that was probably a joke - it was still kind of a cool thought, okay. The_Codfish: Dave didn't get a map. Rose and Dave were guided to the spot by the Horrorterrors themselves. CyanCat: Okay there were definitely things I missed. Awesome! So there is no ability (whether through role or having a Derse dreamself) where that would be a possibility? Or I guess "guided by the Horrorterrors" could still count as some form of navigation through the Furthest Ring, just not one the kids(/trolls) have control over.

The_Codfish: It's not as if the kids aren't able to navigate the Furthest Ring. Aradia
said that she had some limited ability in navigating the Bubbles (which, in context, would carry over to her ability to navigate the Furthest Ring?), and she stated that Rose would be much better at that than her. Myself: What Cod said. Dave and Rose were guided. And I believe that the Furthest Ring is extremely unreliable. You could end up going in the completely wrong direction for decades, or end up bumping into yourselves later, as Rose explained. So, yes and no. Yes, it can be used to go too other sessions. No, it can be used reliably to get too the session you want.

Squiddles session, if it did exist, might of been the first session, and LE's first session [to enter], but possibly not his genesis. What if he didn't consume his first session? What if it was for a certain reason? What if that reason is the one flaw too his impenetrable defence?

I will now dub this session in question the Alpha-Omega session. The beginning and the end. /crack theory <-[Not end of crack theory]

CyanCat: Italics are quotes Originally Posted by genteelGunslinger What Cod said. Dave and Rose were guided. And I believe that the Furthest Ring is extremely unreliable. You could end up going in the completely wrong direction for decades, or end up bumping into yourselves later, as Rose explained.

So, yes and no. Yes, it can be used to go too other sessions. No, it can be used reliably to get too the session you want. It's unreliable if you don't have some sort of guide, I thought. Although that isn't necessarily guaranteed to be completely reliable either. Rose's powers involve seeing the most fortunate outcome, right? Navigation seems more of an indirect ability in that case. But if the circumstances were right, certain powers, correct timing, all of that... I don't think reliable navigation is impossible? It would be like how the kids/trolls are going to the new session (but with a different session as the goal, and the result of Rose's Seer abilities). Except I don't think it will happen that way. So.

Squiddles session, if it did exist, might of been the first session, and LE's first session, but possibly not his genesis. What if he didn't consume his first session. What if it was for a certain reason. What if that reason is the one flaw too his impenetrable defence.

I will now dub this session in question the Alpha-Omega session. The beginning, and the end.

/crack theory This one?

...so something to do with Jake after all? Maybe?

Myself: Originally Posted by CyanCat It's unreliable if you don't have some sort of guide, I thought. Although that isn't necessarily guaranteed to be completely reliable either. Rose's powers involve seeing the most fortunate outcome, right? Navigation seems more of an indirect ability in that case. But if the circumstances were right, certain powers, correct timing, all of that... I don't think reliable navigation is impossible? It would be like how the kids/trolls are going to the new session (but with a different session as the goal, and the result of Rose's Seer abilities). Except I don't think it will happen that way. So. The current assortment of characters would provide such an answer, but I think a better way of seeing this is that maybe the space/time glitch IS the point in which LE is vulnerable. Not a direct weapon, just a gap in his defence. I think this gap is outside the session multiverse, such as where he is right now, in the real world, where his powers are irrelevant (maybe? because he's out of range from the green sun's power there, isn't he?) or his power is drumped by Hussie's Author powers, or in previously stated A/O session, which holds his undoing.

Could this A/O session be a trap? A Universe-Snare in which he can't exit though can exist in, but must enter on someone/something else's conditions?

This one?

...so something to do with Jake after all? Maybe? This one could also be the above snare. Maybe that's what this is all being set-up for. A snare for Lord English. The session has been made terminal anyway, or, should it produce a universe, it'll have to be in a extremely round-about way. Such as with the remnants of past sessions. You see where I'm going with this? Alpha/Omega is the genesis of the beginning, but also the end. The beginning being the birth of Lord English. The end being the Omega universe, spawned from his death. The last universe, the ultimate universe. The end of the evil cycle of SBURB.

CyanCat: Originally Posted by genteelGunslinger The current assortment of characters would provide such an answer, but I think a better way of seeing this is that maybe the space/time glitch IS the point in which LE is vulnerable. Not a direct weapon, just a gap in his defence. I think this gap is outside the session multiverse, such as where he is right now, in the real world, where his powers are irrelevant (maybe? because he's out of range from the green sun's power there, isn't he?) or his power is drumped by Hussie's Author powers, or in previously stated A/O session, which holds his undoing.

Could this A/O session be a trap? A Universe-Snare in which he can't exit, but can exist, but must enter on someone/something else's conditions? I'm not sure about the real world part. It could certainly be, but, like my theory about using the Furthest Ring, it seems unlikely to happen... I think, anyway. It would be placing a lot of importance on Hussie's powers/existence, and (shit it's kind of late, not thinking clearly or articulating this particularly well, had definitely better sleep soon) that could be seen as further interference with the- you know what, Homestuck is unusual enough to break a few walls as part of its plot, this is completely plausible. Even if I hope LE's defeat comes about in a different way.

If it is this hypothetical A/O solution, perhaps. If he entered the "real world" through a fourth wall, that may be how he enters the new session as well, and that would be unusual for LE.

This one could also be the above snare. Maybe that's what this is all being set-up for. A snare for Lord English. The session has been made terminal anyway, or, should it produce a universe, it'll have too be in a extremely round-about way. Such as with the remnants of past sessions. You see where I'm going with this? Alpha/Omega is the genesis of the beginning, but also the end. The beginning being the birth of Lord English. The end being the Omega universe, spawned from his death. The last universe, the ultimate universe. The end of the evil cycle of SBURB. Sort of like completing a loop?

I think this would be a pretty interesting idea. Regardless of whether or not my above question was correct.

On that note - is B2 destined to be destroyed by Bec Noir and/or the Green Sun's creation, too? So maybe he doesn't get to devour this one, even though he is supposed to enter it at some point. (Alternatively, he's only managed to, and only ever will, devour two universes - the ones that made the Green Sun. Another possible connection between LE and the Green Sun. That seems unlikely to me, too, but we don't exactly have many examples of other universes that have/have not had LE to have a good sample to draw from.)

Myself: Originally Posted by CyanCat I'm not sure about the real world part. It could certainly be, but, like my theory about using the Furthest Ring, it seems unlikely to happen... I think, anyway. It would be placing a lot of importance on Hussie's powers/existence, and (shit it's kind of late, not thinking clearly or articulating this particularly well, had definitely better sleep soon) that could be seen as further interference with theyou know what, Homestuck is unusual enough to break a few walls as part of its plot, this is completely plausible. Even if I hope LE's defeat comes about in a different way.

If it is this hypothetical A/O solution, perhaps. If he entered the "real world" through a fourth wall, that may be how he enters the new session as well, and that would be unusual for LE. But what other reason, besides him going to kill Hussie, would he be there other then too take a short-cut? But then again, as you stated, this places importance on Hussie, which is something I think he wants to avoid.

Sort of like completing a loop?

I think this would be a pretty interesting idea. Regardless of whether or not my above question was correct.

On that note - is B2 destined to be destroyed by Bec Noir and/or the Green Sun's creation, too? So maybe he doesn't get to devour this one, even though he is supposed to enter it at some point. (Alternatively, he's only managed to, and only ever will, devour two universes - the ones that made the Green Sun. Another possible connection between LE and the Green Sun. That seems unlikely to me, too, but we don't exactly have many examples of other universes that have/have not had LE to have a good sample to draw from.) I don't think Bec will actually destroy (okay, he might destroy it a little bit) this session. I actually think he's part of the snare.

This coming together of ultimate powers, four God-tiers and Trolls, PM and Bec Noir, The Post-Scratch Kids and the Condesce. These are some powerful figures. And who knows how powerful UU and uu are, if they become part of this power-play somehow.

All these powers, except for the Condesce, might be facilitating your already mentioned loop. Either the Multiiversal Gambit is which SBURB ejects it's most powerful enemy, Lord English, from play, so that it can continue to function as-per-usual. Or the Multiiversal Gambit is the one time SBURB will give it's players the chance to stop everything, and finally create a permanent universe.

This could be the Ultimate Riddle in the making.

My Theory: With recent information regarding the 03/16/12 updates, it has been theorised that the kids should not exist, because their histories have been reset, yet do exist, with all memories and intact from when they left it. They now exist as Glitches in Space/Time. With this in mind, they now have the power to destroy Lord English, who can only be killed by said glitches in space/time. But ,Rose has also discovered:
ROSE: But as it is, I think the forces opposing these players are clandestinely working toward the same goal as we are. ROSE: From what I can tell, gestures of antagonism, while certainly posing legitimate danger, have been factored in as critical stepping stones to one destination shared by all parties. ROSE: I don't know why this is, or what the motives are yet.

If we assume these opposing forces are in fact the Condesce, we can then understand what this goal is. The creation of a universe. However, it is fair to say that the universe She wishes to create would be one that suits her goals. I.E. the recreation of her Empire. But what though what means? The kids now provide the answer to killing LE. They also have with them the answer to creating a new universe. Skaia. The reason the Condesce was making little effort to actually directly kill off the Alpha kids is because they entering their session was important to her plans. Her plan to create HER perfect universe.

And this is where the Lord English Alpha/Omega Snare Trap Theory comes in. If we assume that Lord English is invincible to normal attacks, and can only be defeated through space/time glitches, then how can one defeat him? What are the glitches? Let us consider that there exist two different kinds of S/T glitches. A) Passive S/T Glitches: This is what the Kids currently exist as. They are glitches in time and space. They technically dont exist, as their histories have been erased. Yet they do, though space/time shenanigans, so now their attacks and powers have the passive trait of being able to puncture any defences that involve Space/Time as their source of protection. B) Directed S/T Glitches: This is basically FORCING a S/T glitch to occur, and this is possibly the most difficult when it is applied to Lord Englishs case to use, but potentially the most powerful, used in this context. This is where doing something that would cause either a paradox or loop in Space/Time to somehow break and yet still continue(To play beyond the death of a king in chess, for example) to occur. For the Lord English Alpha/Omega Snare Trap Theory (or the Multiiuniversal Gambit), there will be both. There will be a coming together of powerful, S/T glitched forces, all almost powerful and deadly in their own right. But WHY to this session? Why are they coming to this session in particular? Because Lord English will enter this session. And SBURB has prepared for him. SBURB, with its infinite knowledge of the future within itself, and all around it, have now fabricated a situation to trap Lord English in the most hostile environment possible for him in several ways. Lord English actually has many different defences, rather than just the one. One: His immunity to all except S/T Glitch damage. This has already been touched on. Two: Because he is a time traveller, you would think one could simply go back in his personal history to a point in which he is at his weakest. He devours universe to gain power, but he must have started at some point. He would of consumed countless universes, but, within the instance that you would meet him, he would only have an finite number consumed. So there must be a point he was weakest.

When he had only just began. His Alpha Session, if you will. His first. Because of such, you would need knowledge of where that session was. but, even with this knowledge, there is no exact way of reaching this session. To even find the right session in the mess that is the Furthest Ring is an almost impossible task, as travel there is unreliable. Gaming Abstractions that involve space/time travel are limited in their scope, and are usually contained only within their own universe, or can only jump universes at a limited range, and mostly only so far into other universe, in the case of Bec Noirs travelling into the Troll session and Dave and Aradias time powers respectively. Ill touch on the Alpha Session later on, as there is another point to be made with the Alpha. Three: As an extension from the last point, LE devours universes to gain power. Because of such, the later in his timeline you get, the more powerful and difficult he is to kill. Hes as powerful as he is in that instance of existence, but encounter him in another timeframe, and you may be up against an entirely more powerful LE, as you cannot encounter him in a previous session that he has devoured, because it is now gone from current existence, and history The history is within him, however, so it continues to exist for him and him alone. This is an important detail. Four: He enters at the death of a universe, which means he enters unchallenged. It is only then does he goes backwards in time. This adds the final defence in his many layers of protection.

This is what where the Snare Trap comes into effect. The Trap is the fact that Lord English will enter this session with the understanding that this is business as usual. Little does he know that he is actually entering a session in which everything is stacked against him. He will be forced to enter on someone elses terms. A starting point which is unfavourable, or one that has been set up as an ambush. Another part of the trap is that he cannot escape this session. He has no way of exiting this session, as he has no escape plan. He has never needed to, and this is no different. He is unsuspecting of the threat this session holds. Another point is that the one he is relying on to bring him into this universe is most likely conspiring against him. The Condesce aims to start a new world. She can do this through the normal method that SBURB provides, yet this would simply be a temporary solution, and if that was so, she would lose her world within the current

session, as it would be destroyed in the meteor hellfire. She gains nothing from helping Lord English. She loses her power over her universe, and everything she built within it will be destroyed. Thus, her only remaining option is to jeopardize the session for him when he enters, and, finally, kill him. She cannot, however, do it herself. Thus, she needs to create the right conditions in which this will be facilitated. SBURB has predicted this. To it, as an entity, or whatever entity that governs it, Lord English is its greatest threat. So, it has gathered together a force with which the Condesce can use against Lord English. The irony being that the fact that this force exists is due to Lord Englishs manipulation. They were an unintended side effect, and thus, may prove his undoing. But this isnt enough. And thus is presented the most important aspect of this session, as well as the Condesce plans. She could simply continue to rule this session, but it allow her to extend her power and influence. She would restricted to that session and that session ONLY. With of wanting to have more and more power, this would not And so, she has an alternative. Lord English has a starting point. We have dubbed this point the Alpha session. This session would hold within it the weakness too his power. It, in itself, is an S/T glitch. But what if its destruction would cause his destruction also? This is due to it not only being his first session. It is his genesis. Something within the Alpha session becomes the Lord English we see. To do that, something must have happened. If LE devours that season, this would never have happened, and thus his creation would never happen. He himself becomes a S/T glitch. Think of this like what would happen if Snowman flipped her own coin. She, and the whole universe, would cease to exist. Something similar would happen to LE. He devours his genesis, he becomes a S/T, and thus his own weakness. He loses his powers, as all sessions before this devouring have never been devoured. They still exist His entire history is disproven. So, no matter how many sessions he devours, so long as his genesis still exists, only then will his power still continue to exist. What if the one he is entering is the Alpha? What if this session is his genesis? He is walking into a universe built on unstable ground. wouldnt simply be her attitude be enough.

The fact that he enters at its end means he knows that this universe is ending. Thus, this forces his hand to prevent that. Hell enter early. He has to keep this session alive. The Condesce has prepared for this. Lord English contains within himself the power of multiple universes, as well as the Green Sun, itself made of the mass of two universes. The Green Sun is peculiar, as it there has never been something like it before. The machine that created it, the bomb inside The Tumour, had been powered by the deaths of the two universes. It had absorbed their energy, and, with it, created the Green Sun. Lord English would do the same. Upon his death, a mass of energy will no doubt be released due to the countless universes within him. With this energy, there is a hypothetical chance that this energy can be used to create something new. And here is where the Condesces plans for creating a new universe lie. She will kill Lord English, and, with a device similar to the Tumour, will spawn a new universe. What is different about THIS universe is that it would be outside the influence of SBURB. SBURB cant foresee this, because of such. It has been fooled into thinking that itll simply be getting rid of a pest. Instead, what will be created is its own undoing, as has Lord English before it. This universe will not be pulled into the Universal Recycling that SBURB does. Itll be indefinite. It is the final session. The ultimate universe. Omega. The beginning and the end. Alpha/ the genesis, and the Omega/ the end. And from its end will the waters of life flow freely. Skaia is a pond for the Genesis Frog. Bilious Slick is the universe. This will be the ultimate Bilious Slick. From this resulting universe, she will recreate her Empire. And reign over the new troll race, and all races spawned in the new universe, forever. She will become the ultimate tyrant. Now lays the true challenge for the children. They themselves must prevent the Condesces plans going HER way, and have the universe created so that it is outside not only SBURBs influence, but the Condesces as well. Otherwise, the new universe would not be given a chance to develop on its own, and without the destructive intentions

of Skaia, or the controlling domination of the Condesce. This is the Multiiversal Gambit. The Lord English Alpha/Omega Snare Trap theory. A conspiracy in which the cycle will be broken. The result will either be catastrophe for humanity in the new universe, or it will be an ascending freedom. Lord English will be ironic saviour of the day, with his death being the release that is craved. His destruction will give birth to the greatest life imaginable, and it will be forever, always to exist. All of this will be the ending of the greatest plot loop within Homestuck. This is the end of the story. The kids either win, and the universe they create will of on forever, to continue to exist, and flourish, or itll be enslaved by the Condesce. The coming together of these elements seem to mean that something is afoot, as is confirmed by Rose. Overtime, this theory will either be proven to be true, or proven false. Only time will tell with new details that emerge.