‫האם כבר בא המשיח או אם הוא‬

‫?עתיד לבא‬
 • ‫לא יסור שבט מיהודה‬
FRIAR PAUL’S INITIAL CHALLENGE
‫לא יסור שבט מיהודה‬- The scepter shall not
depart from Judah until the Messiah, who
will be his descendant, has come. The
Messiah, then, has clearly come b/c the
Jews have no rulership, autonomy or power!
FRIAR PAUL’S COUNTERCHALLENGE
“Gotcha”
Although there were times without
kingship, there was always Jewish
authority. As your Talmud states:
‫ אלו ראשי גלויות‬,‫ לא יסור שבט‬. Today you
have no kingship or rulership or
authority of any sort…You’re not even
entitled to be called “Rabbi” (i.e., there
is no smichah).
RAMBAN’S ANSWER
It is NOT true that scripture means that any
gap in kingship means that Messiah has come.
Rather, Judah’s right to kingship is legitimate
and eternal.
AND ATYA—Messiah would have arrived well
RAMBAN’S
before Yeshu.COMEBACK
“You think you’re so smart!”
In classic Talmudic style, the Rabbis are
deriving a legal application of the verse ‫לא‬
‫יסור‬. But that does not negate its basic
prophetic meaning: Judah is the exclusive,
rightful king of all of Israel and will reign at
the time of the Messiah.
AND ATYA—Smichah continued 400 years
after Yeshu!
 ‫מדרש איכה רבתי‬

FRIAR PAUL’S INITIAL CHALLENGE RAMBAN’S ANSWER

I don’t believe in [the literal truth of] this
Your Talmud tells a story that the Messiah story, but it proves my point—if the Messiah
was born on the very day that the Temple was born on the day of the destruction of the
was destroyed. He’s born! He’s come! Temple, he couldn’t be Yeshu who was long
dead at the
RAMBAN time.
COMEBACK
MAESTRO GILLEM COUNTERCHALLENGE

Without any reference to any particular If you insist on being literal, then, clearly
individual, can you simple admit that your our texts say that he was born, NOT that he
own holy texts say that Messiah has has come. If he has not freed the Jews from
come? exile, then he has not come.
 ‫הנה ישכיל עבדי‬
FRIAR PAUL’S INITIAL CHALLENGE
You must admit that ‫ הנה ישכיל עבדי‬is a
clear reference to Yeshu and the events
of his life and death.
FRIAR PAUL’S COUNTERCHALLENGE
But your own scholars say that it is talking
about Messiah.
RAMBAN’S ANSWER
Not at all, this is speaking of all of the
Jewish people as a corporate entity:
‫עבדי=כלל ישראל‬
RAMBAN’S COMEBACK
True, but that is not my approach b/c this
description is not consistent with what the
Rabbis say elsewhere about Messiah Son of
David. But, the events described here are
not even consistent with what actually
happened to your “Messiah.”
 ‫אגדתא מתי יבא המשיח‬
FRIAR PAUL INITIAL CHALLENGE
The Talmud says that Eliyahu sent R.
Joshua ben Levi to find the Messiah
who was sitting at the gates of Rome—
so he’s here! He’s in Rome!
KING COUNTERCHALLENGE
But if he was born on the day of the
destruction and has still not come, he
must be over 1,000 years! How will he
come?
RAMBAN’S ANSWER
Not at all—Eliyahu sent the Rabbi to
inquire “When will the Messiah
come?” He clearly has NOT come if
we are awaiting him!
RAMBAN’S COMEBACK
Others have lived as long; G-d grants life.
But I actually don’t believe in [the literal
truth of] this Aggadah. Others say he will be
born close to the time of redemption.
BUT ATYA, it is proof that the Messiah
described in these sources is NOT Yeshu.
 The Punishments of Adam Are Nullified
RAMBAN REQUESTS ACQUIESCENCE THE KING AND FRIAR PAUL RESPOND

We all can agree that the sin of Adam
will be negated in the time of Messiah.
RAMBAN’S FURTHER RESPONSE
Yes--Yeshu has redeemed mankind of
the original sin for which all of Adam’s
descendants were doomed to go to
Gehenna.
FRIAR PAUL’S RESPONSE

I agree that the punishments will be

reversed, therefore it is clear Messiah (Silence)
hasn’t arrived. Mankind still works for
a living, women labor to birth children
and everyone dies.
Furthermore, G-d would never hold all
of mankind spiritually accountable for
the sin of another.