Deposition of Shem Jessop

Case3:12cv08123HRHDocument1851Filed09/05/13Page1of56
EXHIBIT 1
Shem Jessop Deposition Excerpts
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF ARIZONA
United States of America,
) ) Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) ) Town of Colorado City, ) Arizona, et al, ) ) Defendants. ) ________________________________)
No. 3:12-CV-8123-HRH
THE DEPOSITION OF SHEM JESSOP (Videotaped) *** CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT ***
Colorado City, Arizona July 24, 2013 10:00 a.m.
(Copy) PREPARED FOR: MATTHEW DONNELLY, ESQ.
REPORTED BY: Az Litigation Support, LLC Marty Herder, CCR Certified Court Reporter CCR No. 50162
CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649 * * * * * No. 1 No. 2 E X H I B I T S Dispatch Form with telephone numbers Complaint re fiduciary of trust 15 87 Examination By: Mr. Donnelly I N D E X Page: 5
3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649 Also present: Tisha Hillman, Paralegal, DOJ Elizabeth Turrin, Intern, DOJ Philip Barlow David Darger COUNSEL APPEARING: For the Plaintiffs: UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION By: Matthew J. Donnelly, Esq. Sean R. Keveney, Esq. 950 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Washington, D.C. 20530 For the Defendant Town of Colorado City: GRAIF, BARRETT & MATURA, P.C. BY: Jeffrey C. Matura 1850 North Central Avenue, Suite 500 Phoenix, Arizona 85004 For the Defendants City of Hildale, Hildale-Colorado City Utilities, Twin City Water Authority and Twin City Power: STIRBA, P.C. BY: R. Blake Hamilton, Esq. 215 S. State Street, Suite 750 Salt Lake City, Utah 84110 THE DEPOSITION OF SHEM JESSOP, Taken at 10:00 a.m., on July 24, 2013, at the El Capitan School Tech Building, 255 N. Cottonwood Street, Colorado City, Arizona, before Marty Herder, Certified Court Reporter, pursuant to the Rules of Civil Procedure.
4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 States. MR. MATURA: Jeff Matura for Colorado City. Blake Hamilton on behalf of PROCEEDINGS THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. My name is Brent Colorado City, Arizona July 24, 2013 10:00 a.m.
Jensen, certified legal video specialist with K-Video Productions. Our court reporter is Marty Herder, representing Arizona litigation Support. Their address is One East
Washington Street in Phoenix, Arizona. We are at 255 North Cottonwood Street in Colorado City, Arizona, to take the deposition of Shem Jessop on behalf of the plaintiffs in the United States District Court of Arizona case of United States of America versus Town of Colorado City Arizona, et al. Case number 3:12-CV-08123-HRH. The date is July 24th, 2013, and the time is approximately 9:05 a.m. The attorneys will now introduce themselves, plaintiffs first, please. MR. DONNELLY: Matt Donnelly for the United
MR. HAMILTON:
5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Okay. Mr. Jessop, as you probably just heard, and I'm an attorney E X A M I N A T I O N (Whereupon, Philip Barlow entered the room.) MR. HAMILTON: Matt, just so it's on the record, SHEM JESSOP, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: witness. Hildale, Twin City Water Authority and Twin City Power. MR. DONNELLY: just stepped out. THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. Please swear in the And Sean Keveney is also here. He
Philip Barlow just entered the room as the representative of Hildale. He's the mayor. MR. DONNELLY: Sure.
we met before, my name is Matt Donnelly. for the United States. You just took an oath.
You understand that that
oath is the same oath that you would take if you appeared in court. There are penalties for, you know, perjury penalty CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
47 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Can you do that for us quickly? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: the streets. He's a couple streets east of the dairy and north of Arizona Avenue. BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. All right. I want to ask you some questions about the FLDS. Are you a member of the FLDS? A. Q. A. Q. I don't know. Can you tell me why you don't know? I'd rather not get into it. I'm going to -- you're going to have to answer my Objection; form. Like I said, I had a GPS for doing
questions on this, unfortunately. A. Q. the FLDS? MR. HAMILTON: Objection; form. What do you want? I want to know whether or not you're a member of
Asked and answered. THE WITNESS: was or I wasn't. BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. You don't know in your mind? MR. HAMILTON: Same objection; form. I haven't seen anything stating I
I don't know.
48 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. guess? BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Okay. Yes. And you knew for sure at one point in your life? Yes. When was that? Couple years ago. And we're using couple in the literal sense Have you ever been a member of the FLDS? THE WITNESS: Did you -- again, do you want me to
meaning two? A. Q. Yeah. So, and have you been, with the exception of the
last two years where we'll talk about in a second, you have been an FLDS member all your life up until then -A. Q. A. Yes. -- about two years ago? Well, now you sound like I'm not. I don't know. I'm about to ask you, what happened two years ago,
approximately? A. Q. You mean why would I answer like that? Why are you all of a sudden, or within the last
two years, are you unsure? A. How do I answer that? CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
49 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 away. Do we need to have a -MR. HAMILTON: MR. DONNELLY: Let's take a -- let's take a break. That's fine. It's about an hour That sounds fine.
I mean, we're about an hour in. THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
We are off the record at 9:54.
(Brief recess taken.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Just to orient you again, when we broke I was We are on the record at 10:04.
asking you about whether you were a FLDS member, and why within the last two years you are not sure whether or not you are. counsel. And so I'll ask you the question again. Within the last two years, what happened that makes it that you're unsure whether or not you were a FLDS member? MR. HAMILTON: During the break I talked with the Then we took a break so you could talk to your
witness, and it's our position he has a First Amendment Right not to talk about this. You've got your baseline information of his religious background. He was FLDS. You know he was FLDS.
You know now he's not sure if he's FLDS. And so he has a First Amendment Right. CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
50 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 correct? MR. HAMILTON: That's correct. But I believe he him. And pursuant to the Guthrie case, I've informed him that he doesn't have to answer this if he doesn't want to. That's our position. But it's up to him. But I'm not instructing him not to answer, but that's our position. MR. DONNELLY: Okay. So you're not instructing
I'm sorry, there's going to be a double negative. You're not telling him not to answer; is that
does have a First Amendment Right and doesn't need to answer this question if he doesn't desire to. BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Have you told him that we can call the judge and
the judge can -MR. HAMILTON: want to do. MR. DONNELLY: I'm -- I'm asking whether or not We can do that, if that's what you
you've made him aware of that? MR. HAMILTON: I have not made him aware of that,
but we can call the judge if he chooses not to answer it. MR. DONNELLY: MR. HAMILTON: answer it or not. Okay. I don't know if he's going to
I just know he's uncomfortable talking
51 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 about -- more about his religion. MR. DONNELLY: I understand that.
Have you talked to him about the protective order? MR. HAMILTON: protective order. MR. DONNELLY: I'm just trying to make sure he's I talked to him about the
informed on what's the issue here. BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. again. What happened in the last two years that made it that you're no longer sure that you're an FLDS member? A. I don't want to answer the question under my First All right. So I'm going to ask you some questions
Amendment Rights. Q. A. Q. A. So you're refusing to answer? (Witness nods head.) But there was something that happened? I'm not answering the question under my First
Amendment Rights. Q. Did you suspect that I was going to ask you this
question in your deposition? A. Q. A. No, I didn't. You didn't think it would come up? I imagined you were going to ask me something. To
ask me the question exactly like that, no I didn't. CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
52 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. Q. Did you talk with anybody in the government about
how to answer that question, of whether or not you're an FLDS member? MR. HAMILTON: Objection; form. I'll remind you
if you talked to me about it, then even though I'm the City Attorney, you're not to divulge any client -- any attorney-client privileged information. THE WITNESS: No. BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. You didn't talk with anybody in the City Right.
governments about how to answer whether or not you were an FLDS member? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. You're talking about Colorado City and Hildale? Yes. What government are we talking about? I'm talking about both. Because there's lots of governments. Right. I'm sorry.
In the Twin City governments -No. -- you didn't talk to any -Nope. -- employees? What about any FLDS members about it? CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
53 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 truth? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Even to someone like me? Yes. What if it would be detrimental to an FLDS church A. Q. Nope. Now, you just refused to answer whether or not, or
the reason why you're not unsure whether or not you're currently an FLDS member, but you're familiar with their religion, correct? MR. HAMILTON: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. Q. You were a member for many many years -Yeah. -- up until possibly two years ago. Is one of the religious tenants to always tell the Objection; form.
member, do you still tell the truth then? A. Q. Yes. Let me give you an example. What if there was an FLDS leader that government authorities were looking for, and let's say I was that government authority, would you tell the truth if you knew where that person was? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: Objection; form. Yes.
54 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. You would? Has that ever happened? Has what ever happened? Have you ever been asked by anyone where an FLDS
leader is? A. Q. A. Yes. Okay. Was it Warren Jeffs?
This goes back to -- can we take a break for just
a second, because I -- I need to talk to him for just a second. MR. HAMILTON: Well, what I would tell you is
right now, you are not to divulge anything that you may have testified to pursuant to the Grand Jury. THE WITNESS: MR. HAMILTON: completely off limits. Okay. Your Grand Jury testimony is You can't divulge anything that you
were asked during that time, or else you open yourself up to criminal liability. Okay? Okay. So you can answer the question with
THE WITNESS: MR. HAMILTON: that caveat.
I mean, if you were asked any other time
outside of the Grand Jury, you can answer that question. THE WITNESS: I've had different police officers, And I didn't know,
sheriff's officers ask me that question.
55 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. and I told them I didn't know. MR. DONNELLY: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. You don't -- let me ask you this. You don't know whether or not you're currently an FLDS member. Is -- do you want to be an FLDS member at this All right. But you were asking specifically.
point in your life? A. Q. A. Q. I want to stick to the First Amendment. So that's your -I don't want to answer that. Okay. All right.
Do you know who the current leader of the FLDS is? I think I do. Who do you think it is? Warren Jeffs. And where is Warren Jeffs right now? Texas. And he's in prison right now; is that right? That's what I understand. I haven't been there. You haven't? No. Have you ever communicated with him while he's
been in prison? CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
56 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 possible. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No. Never called him on a cell phone? No. Never sent or received any letters from him? Nope. Sure? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. Q. I mean, you said no before, right? Yeah. Have you ever -- have you ever sent letters -Objection; form. I don't recall sending anything.
excuse me -- have you ever sent letters to Warren Jeffs on behalf of your kids? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: Objection; form. I don't recall of it. It's
I don't recall sending him any letters.
BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Okay. With the exception of Warren Jeffs, who else is a leader currently of the FLDS church? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Is there an FLDS Bishop? CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649 Objection; foundation. Don't know another leader.
57 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. HAMILTON: MR. DONNELLY: question there? MR. HAMILTON: MR. DONNELLY: MR. HAMILTON: FLDS right now. You just asked him if there's a FLDS Bishop currently. MR. DONNELLY: MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. Q. You don't know if there's currently a Bishop? I don't. Was there a Bishop approximately two years ago Okay. You can answer the question. How is there a foundation question? Right. He said he doesn't know if he's Objection; foundation. How is there a foundational
If you know. I don't know for sure.
when you were sure you were an FLDS member? A. Q. A. Yeah, there was. Okay. Who was that? There's been
I'd have to go back and look.
several that I've -- the time line. sure who it was. Q. I don't know.
I'm not 100 percent
Can you give me the last four Bishops over the
last few years? MR. HAMILTON: Objection; foundation. CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
58 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649 THE WITNESS: Do I need -- can I assert my First
Amendment Rights and just not answer it? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. Is Lyle Jeffs the current Bishop? I don't know. MR. HAMILTON: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Was Lyle Jeffs the Bishop two to three years ago Objection; foundation. If you wanted to do so, you can. I do.
when you were sure you were an FLDS member? A. Q. There was a point when he was. Okay. I apologize if I don't remember, but did you refuse to answer whether or not you actually want to be an FLDS member right now? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. You didn't answer it. Okay. Objection; form. I didn't answer.
And you said you hadn't communicated with Warren Jeffs since he's been in prison? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: Objection. I don't recall it.
59 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Jessop? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes, he was. You're 100 percent sure on that? Yes, I am. Do you know approximately when that was? I don't keep dates straight. I don't know. For a long time. BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Was William E. Jessop a Bishop at any point, to
your knowledge? A. Q. A. Q. I don't know. You don't know? I don't know. You're saying under oath you don't know whether or
not William E. Timpson or William E. Jessop was a Bishop? A. Q. A. Q. I think he might have been. You're not sure? Not 100 percent, no. Okay. What about Fred Jessop, was he ever an FLDS
Do you know how long ago it was? I don't know. Five years, ten years, 15 years? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: Objection; form. Yeah.
60 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. Q. Which one? I -- at least 15. And whether or not you are an FLDS member or not,
are you currently wanting to follow Warren Jeffs and his directives? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: Objection; form. Again, I'm going to stand on the
First Amendment and not answer. MR. DONNELLY: Take a, take like a side bar here
for a second about what I want to do, if that's alright. MR. HAMILTON: Yeah. We are off the record at 10:17.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
(Brief recess taken.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. All right. Starting up again. I believe before We are on the record at 10:27.
we took one of our many breaks, you said you did not know whether or not -- you did not know whether William Timpson Jessop was an FLDS Bishop; is that right? A. I was trying to recall, but I don't remember Will you ask it again?
exactly how you worded the question. Q. Sure.
Let me ask first, do you know when -- do When I say that
you know who William Timpson Jessop is? name, do you know who that is?
61 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. A. Q. If you ask who is William Timpson, yes. Okay. Go ahead. Okay. William E. Timpson? Because I thought you were talking about William.
Willy Jessop. Q. No, not church security Willy. I'm talking about William E. Timpson, and I think he took the last name Jessop at some point. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Okay. Do you know who that is? Yeah. Was he ever a Bishop for the FLDS? I think he was for a little bit. You're not sure? I -- as far as I know, he could have been. I'm asking you yes or no are you sure? I think he was. Okay. But you still are making it sound like you are not 100 percent sure with the word think. MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: Objection; form. I could be told you were a Bishop.
Would that make -- make it so or not? CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
62 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I wasn't there. BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Sitting here today, you can't say 100 percent
whether or not William E. Timpson Jessop was a FLDS Bishop? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. That's not an answer to my question. Was he a Bishop or not? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. Q. But you're not 100 percent sure? I'm not going to say I'm 100 percent sure. Why not? What's the hesitancy? Objection; form. He may not have been. Objection; form. I think he was. Objection; form. I know he helped Uncle Fred.
MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Okay.
Is it possible that Warren Jeffs wasn't the leader of the FLDS church? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Are you unsure whether he is, the way you're CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649 Objection; form. I think he probably is.
63 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. unsure about William Timpson Jessop being an FLDS Bishop? MR. HAMILTON: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. Q. A. Q. sure? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: answer 100 percent. BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Okay. I'm asking you -- I'm sorry. So your answer is -Objection; form. That's what I said, I'm not going to What's your answer? I think he is. You think he is, you're not 100 percent sure? I'm not going to answer 100 percent sure. So your answer is no, you are not 100 percent Objection; form.
I'm not 100 percent is what I said. You're not 100 percent sure whether or not Warren
Jeffs is the leader of the FLDS religion? MR. HAMILTON: Objection; form. You were talking
You've got me confused now. William, now you're talking Warren. question goes with what, so -BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. Are you confused?
I don't know what
I -- yeah, I don't understand.
You already asked
64 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. A. Q. A. Q. me that question about Warren Jeffs, and I already answered it. Now you're asking me again. Q. When I asked you originally, and I could be
remembering this wrong, but it was, you know, not within the last five minutes, but maybe before the last break, I asked you whether or not Warren Jeffs was the leader of the FLDS church. A. Q. And you said yes, or something to that effect? I said yes. You didn't say I think so. You didn't have any qualification. Okay. Is that the way you remember it? Yes. Okay. Now I'm asking you this -So you're wanting me to put 100 percent on
everything? Q. Certainly when I ask you a yes or no question, I
want you to be sure, yeah. A. Yes, I think. MR. HAMILTON: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. I'm sorry, what was your answer to that question? What's the question again? Because now I -- what Objection; form.
the question was on here. CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
65 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Shem. THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. Q. You think he is? Yes. But you're not 100 percent sure? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Why not? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: Objection; form. You know, I think I want to go back Objection; form. I don't want to say 100 percent. Sorry. Q. Is Warren Jeffs the leader of the FLDS church?
Yes or no? A. I think he is. MR. HAMILTON: Objection; form. Give me a second,
to my First Amendment Right Q. So you're asserting your First Amendment Right as
to whether or not Warren Jeffs is the leader of the church now? A. Q. A. I don't know the exact answer. But you're -You're asking me if I think he is, and then you're
asking me if he is. Q. Are you saying there's a possibility that he's not CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
66 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649 10:41. the leader of the FLDS church? MR. HAMILTON: Go ahead and answer, if you know.
I'm going to object to form, though. I think this is, at this point, has been asked and answered, asked and answered, over and over and over again. MR. DONNELLY: question ever. MR. HAMILTON: I think he has multiple times. I don't think he answered the
Objection; form. THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Okay. You don't really have a choice. I don't want to answer it again.
I'm asking you whether or not -MR. DONNELLY: MR. HAMILTON: Can you read back my last question? And before we do this, Mr. Matura
and I here, and we were talking about Lovisan and her unavailability on Friday. MR. DONNELLY: MR. HAMILTON: MR. DONNELLY: Can we take a minute?
Do you want -Can we take a quick break? Sure. Yeah.
THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
We are off the record at 10:34.
(Brief recess taken.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record at
67 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649 house? A. I think I want to exercise my First Amendment BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. I think when we took our last break the court
reporter was about to read back my last question to you. THE REPORTER: Question. "So you're asserting your
First Amendment Right as to whether or not Warren Jeffs is the leader of the church now?" THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Jessop. Okay. I want to ask you about William Timpson What's the Yes.
How do you want me to refer to him?
easiest for you? A. Q. We always refer to him as William T. William T. Okay.
William T., I think you said you weren't 100 percent sure whether he was ever a Bishop. remembering that right? A. I think so. MR. HAMILTON: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Okay. Did you -- you've been to services at the meeting Objection; form. Am I
rights again and not answer that.
68 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. Q. So you're refusing to answer whether or not you've
ever been to the meeting house? A. Q. That wasn't your question. Let me rephrase it to the way I said before. You're refusing to answer whether or not you've ever attended services at the meeting house? A. I'm exercising my First Amendment Right and not
answer that. Q. All right. Have you ever been to the meeting house? I have. Have you ever seen Williams T. there? I'm sure I have. Have you ever seen him there acting in the Bishop
capacity for the FLDS church? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: Objection; foundation. Form.
I'm going to exercise my First
Amendment rights again and not answer that. BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. As an FLDS member, which we've at least
established happened two years ago, and prior to that, are you familiar with what I've heard the term Saturday work projects? A. Q. I'm familiar with the term. Okay. What does that term mean to you?
71 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. I'm asking for the period of, you know, prior to
two years ago when you were sure you were an FLDS member, did you not know generally who was a member and who was not? A. Q. What's generally mean? If you saw 100 people walking through town, would
you know that 90 percent of them were or were not members? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. So three years ago if we walked down the street, Objection; form. Not necessarily.
you wouldn't be able to tell me who was a member and who was not? A. Q. Not necessarily. So you're saying that you -- are you saying for a
particular person or are you saying that generally you don't know? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. or not. Q. I'm not asking if it was your job to know or not. I'm asking if three years ago we went walking down CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649 Uh-hmm. It wasn't my job to know whether they were members Objection; form. To whether they were members or not?
72 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the street, I understand that it's possible that you may run across a person that you might not know. But generally, as
you're walking down the street, would you know whether or not the majority of the people that you saw, whether or not they were FLDS members or not? MR. HAMILTON: MR. MATURA: objection. Objection. I also want to state an
I'm sorry.
It's going to be a little bit of a speaking
objection, so bear with me. But because he's a member of the Marshal's Office, it also falls under Colorado City. I find it amazing that
the Department of Justice is infringing upon this witness' First Amendment Right. You guys need to read the case law. You need to
read the cases that say asking questions and compelling answers about other individuals who share the same belief, is in itself an infringement upon an individual's First Amendment Right. You got to read the Supreme Court cases. to read the Ninth Circuit case law. Since I came back in ten minutes ago, every question has been a violation of his First Amendment Right. And you're the Department of Justice. You should know this. You got
So, I want to state my objection for the record, because when we go before the judge on these issues, I want CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
73 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649 to be clear that we've warned you about this individual's First Amendment Right. And I'll not only make the same
objection for this individual, but the same objection for all other witnesses who are going to be deposed. They have constitutional rights, and you continue to violate those rights. So I just want it to be on the record that you've been warned, and we'll file the appropriate motion at the appropriate time. MR. DONNELLY: But along those lines, you're not
instructing the witness not to answer. MR. MATURA: I have stated my objection. So I --
we may instruct him not to answer depending on the question, but these questions are violating his First Amendment rights. You need to read the case law, you really do.
BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Let me ask you about domestics dogs in 2001, were
you involved in an incident in approximately 2001 where a bunch of domestic dogs in Twin Cities were rounded up and killed? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: Objection; form. I did animal control. You make it
sound like we rounded up horses or something, or somebody did. What are you referring to.
83 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 increase. BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Let me just ask one last question on that. Was A. Q. Not that I'm aware of. Was there any reaction from the Marshal's Office? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Increase in rounding up of loose dogs. Objection; form. What do you mean by reaction?
Enforcement of dog ordinances, things like that? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: Objection; form. I don't know that there was any
there a directive from the FLDS church to gather up a bunch of dogs after this incident? A. No. MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: MR. HAMILTON: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. Q. And your answer was no? My answer was no. Are you familiar with the current government Objection; foundation. Sorry. Give me a second.
officials in town, meaning the mayor, town managers? A. Q. For the most part. Do you know who the current mayors are?
84 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. Actually, no, I don't know who Colorado City is. Okay. Am I going to get fired? It's not my place. What about the city and town managers, do you know who they are? A. Q. David. I don't know who Utah's is.
All right. What about the current CCMO officers, do you know
who they are? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Can you name them for me? Helaman, Sam, Curtis, Hyrum, Jerry. And you? And me. I didn't. . .
That's all right. I mean, I read you a question awhile ago that had
your name in it, so. . . Can you name any of those police officers who are not members of the FLDS? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. You don't know if any are or are not? MR. HAMILTON: Same objection. Objection; foundation. I don't know.
85 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. right? CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649 THE WITNESS: I'm going to go back to my First
Amendment Right, and not answer it. BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. yourself? A. Q. Yes. What about for the mayor and town officials that For all -- for all five officers, besides
you know, do you know whether or not they are FLDS members? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. Q. You're refusing to answer? I'm refusing to answer on the First Amendment. Have you seen any of the Colorado City Marshal's Objection; foundation. First Amendment.
Office at the meeting house? A. Q. First Amendment. Have you seen any of the other officers on the
Saturday work projects we were talking about? A. Q. First Amendment. Do you know who the mayor was before the current
mayner -- mayor, sorry, of Hildale? A. I don't know. I can tell you that David Zitting was. Do you know -- he's no longer the mayor, though,
86 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Right. Do you know approximately when he stopped being
the mayor? A. Q. A. Q. I don't. Do you know why he stopped being the mayor? I don't. Do you know whether he was an FLDS member? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. What about for Colorado City, what about -- I know Objection; foundation. First Amendment.
you don't know -- what about George Barlow? A. Q. He was the mayor. Okay. Do you know whether or not he was an FLDS member? First Amendment. Do you know -- he's no longer the mayor, right? No. Do you know when he stopped? I don't. We spoke earlier about the UEP trust and Bruce
Wisan, do you remember that? A. Q. Yes. Can you just briefly tell me what your
understanding of Bruce Wisan's role is? CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
91 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE WITNESS: signature. BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. And I -- just to be clear, number seven is: I That wasn't the intent of the
have personal knowledge of the facts stated herein and make this declaration under penalty of perjury. Do you see that. Is that right? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. All right. Let me ask you about FLDS church security. you familiar with the FLDS church security? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: Amendment again. BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. So you're going to refuse to answer my question Objection; form. I'm going to go back to my First Are Objection; form. I see that, yes.
about FLDS, the church security? A. Unless you can relate it to my job as a police
officer, I am. Q. Let's go through them. I ask -- let me ask it again. Are you familiar with the FLDS church security? CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
92 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649 A. Q. member? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: Objection; form. I saw him ask people to leave the security? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. You said you think he's a part of it. You're not 100 percent sure? He said he was. Did you ever see him working as a church security Objection; foundation. Because I think he was a part of it. A. Q. MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. Q. A. Q. How do you know that? Willy told me. When you say Willy, you mean Willy Jessop? Willy Jessop. Okay. Who is Willy Jessop? Dee's brother. All right. What's his -- why would he know that, about church Glades son. Objection; form. I know they have security.
lot if there was a disturbance caused by them.
101 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. Q. I'm sorry. Do you know if any members of the church security are also city or town officials or employees? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: Amendment Rights. BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. Q. Sir, you're refusing to answer that? Under my First Amendment Rights. Did you ever provide any security -- have a police Objection; foundation. I believe that falls under my First
officer at the meeting house? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Okay. Can you explain to me the times that happened? When I got called. So you got calls from the FLDS church to come to Objection; form. I went there as a police officer.
the meeting house as a police officer? A. Yeah, if I was on duty and there was a call there
I went there. Q. Okay. Do you remember any of the calls? Not specifically. Did it happen a lot?
104 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Do you know what types of phones the church
security used? A. Q. Don't. Do you know whether they used Sprint Next
telephones? A. Q. A. Q. I imagine they use whatever. I don't know.
Do you know what a Sprint Next telephone is? Yeah. Can you explain to me what it is so I have it on
the record? A. Q. It's a cell phone from Sprint. And in particular, I think it's the kind where you
can talk like it's a walkie-talkie rather than making a phone call. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Okay. Are you familiar with those? I know about them. I don't have one.
Do you know whether the church security had them? I don't know. So it's fair to say that you never talked to the
church security on a Next telephone? A. Q. Oh, I got to answer? Sorry. No.
Have you ever been inside the meeting house in
your capacity as a police officer? A. Sure I have. CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
105 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Do you remember for what reason or reasons? Not specifically. Do you know whether they have video surveillance
monitors inside the meeting house? A. that one. Q. Can I ask why you think that's protected by the I think I will stand on the First Amendment on
First Amendment? A. Q. A. business. Q. Okay. But just to be crystal clear, you're refusing to answer my question about the video monitors? A. Yes, I'm going to stand on the First Amendment. MR. MATURA: I will assert again for the record, It's a church. Okay. And I'm --
It's -- what they have for security is their
for future use, that governing case law is very clear that there's a substantial privacy interest in religious views, including the identity of any individual who shares anyone's particular views, as well as the place of worship, what happens at a place of worship, describing the place of worship, et cetera, are all absolutely protected by the First Amendment. MR. DONNELLY: And I'd like to know for the CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
106 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 answered. THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Have you ever been to the Bishop's residence as a First Amendment. record, but you're not instructing him not to answer? MR. MATURA: The witness has the ability to invoke
his First Amendment if he so chooses. There may be a time I instruct him not to answer, depending how far the questions go, but again, I want to remind the United States Government that it's continuing to infringe upon this witness's First Amendment Rights Q. And I'm assuming you're going to give the same
answer, but let me ask it this way again to make sure I have it. In your capacity as a police officer, were you ever inside the meeting house and saw video surveillance monitors? MR. HAMILTON: Objection; form. Asked and
police officer? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. say that? A. Not exactly. CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649 Do you know what the Bishop's residence is when I Objection; foundation. I don't recall. No.
107 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. answered. THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. there? Q. Let me ask first: Have you ever been there in Ever. Now you're asking have I ever personally been Ever? Q. What do you think I mean when I'm saying that? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Have you ever -- you can't -- and you're saying Objection; form. To the Bishop's house.
that you can't remember whether or not you've ever been to the Bishop's house? MR. HAMILTON: Objection; form. Asked and
your capacity as a police officer? A. Q. I think I probably have. Can you tell me the circumstances of the times you
were there as a police officer? A. Q. I don't recall. Can you tell me how many times you were there as a
police officer? A. I can't. I don't know. Were you inside the Bishop's residence as a police CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
108 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. officer? A. May have been. I don't recall. Do you remember. if you may have been in there, if
you may have seen video monitors inside the Bishop's residence? A. Q. First Amendment. Does the City have video surveillance of the, you
know, the town and the city? A. Q. A. Q. look at? A. Q. A. Q. They have cameras around the town hall. Anywhere else? Not that I'm aware of. So as far as you know, the only cameras that are Which city? Well, let's ask. Let me ask Colorado City first.
Do they have surveillance of what? Of the town, do they have cameras up that they can
city owned, and we're talking about Colorado City right now, are the ones that are on the town hall? A. I think there's one across the street on the fire That's the only ones I know of.
station, too. Q. A. Q.
What about Hildale? I have no idea what Hildale has. Okay.
109 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 answer -MR. HAMILTON: MR. DONNELLY: MR. HAMILTON: I am. -- where the security cameras are? Yep, just like yesterday. That So as far as you know, those are the two cameras for both cities, those are the only ones you know about? A. Well, there's more than two. There's cameras
around the building. Q. A. Q. Those two places? That's the only ones I know of. Are there any on any other city property, such as
city lamp posts, lights, things like that? A. Oh, I do remember another one. There's one. MR. HAMILTON: At this point in time I'm going to
instruct the witness not to answer pursuant to the Utah and Arizona Government Records Access Management Act, this information of where all the church -- all the city's security cameras would be is classified and private. THE WITNESS: MR. DONNELLY: Okay. So you're instructing him not to
answer was given just like in our discovery responses, that answer was given. MR. DONNELLY: to this case? CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649 And you don't think that's relevant
110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. HAMILTON: It's not that it's not relevant,
it's that those are protected and private under the Government Records Access Management Act, and have been classified as such. MR. MATURA: So he would be violating a statute by
describing this to you. MR. DONNELLY: MR. HAMILTON: All right. And also ask the record be redacted
as far as the City Hall and the fire station. MR. DONNELLY: Can he tell me about the rest of
them and have it be redacted? MR. HAMILTON: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. All right. Let's talk about the actual monitors. Nope.
Have you seen them? MR. HAMILTON: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. We just talked about some cameras and we're no Objection; form.
longer talking about the locations of those, but those cameras feed into some sort of monitoring system; is that right. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Have you seen that monitoring system? I have. Where is it?
132 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 security. Do you know if the police force ever provided any training to the church security? A. Q. I don't know. Did you ever provide training to the church answered. THE WITNESS: I believe I stated that I was going A. Q. cameras. A. Q. Yes. And you don't remember whether or not there's a
big camera on top of the dentist's office? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: I don't know. Objection; form. I don't go around looking for
BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Okay. So you don't remember? I don't remember. Was it your testimony that you don't know one way
or the other whether or not the FLDS church has security cameras? MR. HAMILTON: Objection; form. Asked and
on my First Amendment rights to not answer that. BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Okay. Let me ask you about, again, about church
156 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. didn't dig into it. Q. Okay. How long were you suspended for? There was a letter put in my file. I don't know
if suspension had a -- I think it -- I'm not sure. Q. A. Q. A. Q. sense. In your time as a Marshal's officer has any other police officers in the Marshal's Office been decertified by either Arizona or Utah POST? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Have any officers been decertified? Uh-hmm? Yeah. Yes. Do you get paid during this time? Not when you're suspended. I just wanted to make sure. I wish. I just wanted to make sure. That makes perfect
Can you tell me who they were? Sam. Can you give me a last name so I can make sure
we're all -A. Roundy. Vance. And Rodney Holm.
Do you remember approximately when those
decertifications happened? CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
157 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 time? A. Q. I was. Do you remember or do you have any knowledge of A. Q. I don't. For Sam Roundy, do you remember the accusations
about why he got decertified? A. beliefs. Q. beliefs? A. Q. I'm going to go to the First Amendment. Okay. Okay. Do you remember -- you were an officer during this Anything more particular on that, which religious I -- my understanding was because of his religious
any investigation by the City or the Town or any of the -well, the Marshal's Office, into the allegations concerning his decertification? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: Objection; form. You're asking me if the City
investigated him for the same thing POST did? BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. Q. Right. Not that I'm aware of. So you weren't asked any questions about it by -I'm sorry. I
not by AZ POST, or whichever POST it was?
158 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 don't remember right offhand, but internally? A. Q. A. Q. About Sam? Uh-hmm. No. Did you hear or have any knowledge of any other
officers being asked questions about Sam Roundy and the reasons why he was getting decertified? A. I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're
trying to ask me. Q. I'm trying to find out if you have any -- I'm
trying to find out whether or not there was any internal investigation of the allegations that eventually were the reason why Sam Roundy got decertified? A. I'm one of the foot guys. I don't know anything
about that. Q. Okay. So you didn't hear of anyone else investigating it internally in the Marshal's A. Office or city official?
The first thing I heard about it was Sam was being
investigated by POST. Q. And when that happened, was there any internal
investigation, to your knowledge, by either the City or the Town governments or the Marshal's Office? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: Objection; form. Not that I know of.
159 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. Q. Same question for Vance Barlow? I don't have no knowledge on that. So you don't -- just to be clear what you were
answering, you don't have any knowledge of whether or not there was an internal investigation about the allegations about why he got decertified? A. Q. I have no knowledge of that. Do you remember why he got decertified; what was
the reason? A. beliefs. Q. Okay. And I'll go ahead and ask you, you can say it again, can you give me something more particular on what his religious beliefs were that were causing this? A. Q. A. rights. Q. A. Q. Did you say Rodney Holm was the last one -Yes. -- that got decertified? Any knowledge of any internal investigations like we've been talking about regarding the allegations for why CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649 First Amendment. That's a refusal to answer, correct? Correct. I'm standing on my First Amendment As far as I know, it was because of his religious
160 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. he got decertified? A. Q. Religious beliefs. Okay. I think you were answering a different question, but I'll go ahead and ask the question I think you just answered. Do you know why he got decertified, Rodney Holm? Because of his religious beliefs. And if I ask you what those are more particularly
for his decertification, what's your answer? A. Q. I'm going to stay with the First Amendment. And then let me ask the other question that I've
been asking with these, which is, for Rodney Holm, are you aware of any internal investigation by either the Town or the City, or the Marshal's Office, of Rodney Holm about the reasons that he was being investigated and eventually decertified? A. Q. I have no knowledge of it. So as far as you know, that didn't happen for all
three of those officers? A. Q. What didn't happen? There was no internal investigation of Sam Roundy,
Vance Barlow or Rodney Holm for the reasons -A. Q. I have no knowledge of that. But once again -- all right. I'll let the -- I'll
176 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. So what do officers do who don't want to spend
their own money on firearms? A. Q. Get a job somewhere else. So a Marshal -- I'm just asking, the Marshal's
Office expects you to supply your own gun? A. years. Q. A. then. Q. A. Q. guns? A. Q. A. Q. I did. Did Willy Jessop buy any of your guns? No. Okay. I'm going to walk right into this, but I need to ask this question. Are you now or were you ever a part of the FLDS United Order? A. Do you know what the First Amendment is? I'm But you chose not to? I chose not to. And you bought and paid for all three of your The policy may or may not have changed over the When I came on the department, I bought my own gun. Was the policy when you -No. Actually, I could have gotten my gun back
going to stand on that. Q. So you're going to refuse to answer? CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649
177 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 is? A. Q. I do. Do you remember an incident involving him in 2010, A. Q. Yes. Let me ask some more particular question. It's my understanding that as part of the United Order you need to, in some way, sign over your personal property to the church. THE WITNESS: MR. HAMILTON: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. And my question is, if that is true, whether or Is that right? First Amendment. Objection; foundation.
not you or the church owns your guns? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Do you remember an incident in approximately 2010 Objection; foundation. First Amendment.
where Shane Stubbs -Let me ask you first, do you know who Shane Stubbs
where he used an access road that used to be on Joe Jessop's property, and you arrested him for it? ringing a bell? A. Q. A. I don't remember arresting him. Did you -Do you have an address? Is any of this
180 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 me. MR. HAMILTON: Okay. This concludes the deposition Johnson was grazing sheep on Shane's land? MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. A. You don't remember anything like that? I don't remember that. MR. DONNELLY: you today. That's all the questions I have for Objection; form. I'd have to have a report.
Do you have any follow-up questions? You said all the questions you have
MR. HAMILTON: for him today.
Are you wanting to keep the deposition open for some reason? MR. DONNELLY: We don't need to keep it open.
We'll probably, most likely file a motion to compel on all the answers he refused to give today. MR. HAMILTON: Okay. So. . .
I don't have any questions.
We'd ask for the opportunity to read and sign. And do you want that deposition transcript sent to you or sent to me and I get it to you? THE WITNESS: Send it to you and you can get it to
THE VIDEOGRAPHER: of Shem Jessop.
181 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649 * * * * * ______________________ SHEM JESSOP We are off the record at 2:49. (Whereupon, the deposition concluded at 2:49 p.m.)
182 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649 2013. __________________________ C. Martin Herder, CCR Certified Court Reporter Certificate No. 5016 BE IT KNOWN that the foregoing deposition was taken before me, Marty Herder, a Certified Court Reporter, CCR No. 50162, State of Arizona; that the witness before testifying was duly sworn by me to testify to the whole truth; that the questions propounded to the witness and the answers of the witness thereto were reduced to typewriting under my direction; that the witness elected to read and sign the deposition transcript; that the foregoing 180 pages constitute a true and accurate transcript of all proceedings had upon the taking of said deposition, all done to the best of my skill and ability. I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am in no way related to any of the parties hereto, nor am I in any way interested in the outcome hereof. DATED at Chandler, Arizona, this 26th day of July, STATE OF ARIZONA COUNTY OF MARICOPA ) )ss. )

Deposition of Shem Jessop

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Shem Jessop Deposition Excerpts

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT DISTRICT OF ARIZONA

United States of America,

) ) Plaintiff, ) ) vs. ) ) Town of Colorado City, ) Arizona, et al, ) ) Defendants. ) ________________________________)

THE DEPOSITION OF SHEM JESSOP (Videotaped) *** CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT ***

Colorado City, Arizona July 24, 2013 10:00 a.m.

(Copy) PREPARED FOR: MATTHEW DONNELLY, ESQ.

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You understand that that

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I mean, we're about an hour in. THE VIDEOGRAPHER:

We are off the record at 9:54.

I just know he's uncomfortable talking

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51 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 about -- more about his religion. MR. DONNELLY: I understand that.

52 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. Q. Did you talk with anybody in the government about

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leader is? A. Q. A. Yes. Okay. Was it Warren Jeffs?

This goes back to -- can we take a break for just

THE WITNESS: MR. HAMILTON: that caveat.

I mean, if you were asked any other time

sheriff's officers ask me that question.

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been in prison? CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT - SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER www.CourtReportersAz.com (480)481-0649

I don't recall sending him any letters.

If you know. I don't know for sure.

I'd have to go back and look.

I'm not 100 percent

Can you give me the last four Bishops over the

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exactly how you worded the question. Q. Sure.

Let me ask first, do you know when -- do When I say that

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MR. HAMILTON: THE WITNESS: BY MR. DONNELLY: Q. Okay.

I don't know what

I -- yeah, I don't understand.

You already asked

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everything? Q. Certainly when I ask you a yes or no question, I

to my First Amendment Right Q. So you're asserting your First Amendment Right as

Do you want -Can we take a quick break? Sure. Yeah.

We are off the record at 10:34.

(Brief recess taken.) THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record at

How do you want me to refer to him?

easiest for you? A. Q. We always refer to him as William T. William T. Okay.

rights again and not answer that.

68 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. Q. So you're refusing to answer whether or not you've

I'm going to exercise my First

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It's going to be a little bit of a speaking

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86 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Right. Do you know approximately when he stopped being

lot if there was a disturbance caused by them.

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104 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Do you know what types of phones the church

telephones? A. Q. A. Q. I imagine they use whatever. I don't know.

church security on a Next telephone? A. Q. Oh, I got to answer? Sorry. No.

Have you ever been inside the meeting house in

It's -- what they have for security is their

What about Hildale? I have no idea what Hildale has. Okay.

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THE DEPOSITION OF SHEM JESSOP (Videotaped) * CONFIDENTIAL DRAFT *