INTERFAITH ALLIANCE STATE OF BELIEF RADIO NOVEMBER 23, 2013

RUSH TRANSCRIPT: Robin Hynicka

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[REV. DR. C. WELTON GADDY, HOST]: This week, a jury of United Methodist
clergy found one of their own, the Rev. Frank Schaeffer, guilty. Guilty of breaking
his vows, in connection with the longtime Lebanon, Pennsylvania pastor having
performed a same-sex marriage ceremony for his son.
The sentence is a 30-day suspension, with some strings attached.
Even as several similar cases were working their way through the United
Methodist judicial system, other clergy and congregations within the
denomination are openly challenging the Churchs position on marriage equality.
Perhaps the most visible was the November 9th wedding of two longtime male
members of Arch Street United Methodist Church in Philadelphia, with 36 of the
denominations clergy officiating.
Joining me now is the pastor of Arch Street, the Rev. Robin Hynicka, who led
that November 9th ceremony.
Rev. Hynicka, I know it's been a busy week. Welcome to State of Belief Radio.
[REV. ROBIN HYNICKA, GUEST]: Thank you very much.
[WG]: Ministry to LGBT persons is something that a number of mainline
denominations are struggling with, as you know; so if you would, just briefly
describe the United Methodist Church's official position on same-gender
marriage.
[RH]: Our official position is stated and represented in what we call our Book of
Discipline. The Book of Discipline is the place where official statements around
social issues, as well as how we organize ourselves, both internally to the
Church and externally to the world. It is the book that guides us to be evident and
unified in our work is the United Methodist Church.
It is a living document, though. It is a document that gets amended and changed
every four years at our General Conference; which, when convened, has a little
under one thousand delegates - equal numbers of delegates being lay and clergy
- and everything and anything that's in that Book of Discipline is open for change.
[WG]: And you all have already - as the Methodist Church - have revisited this

issue of same-gender marriage, and so far it hasn't been changed, right?

[RH]: That's correct.
[WG]: When I read about the ceremony
[RH]: What's even more important to understand is not only have we tried to
change it, but we've even tried to have language included in the Discipline that
would say that we're a Church that is divided on this issue, and that good people
on both sides of this question can exist - coexist - within our denomination. And
even that kind of a statement has been rejected.
[WG]: I wish you would talk about that extraordinary ceremony held in your
church on November the 9th.
[RH]: Right. It was a matter of pastoral conscience. It was an act of providing the
liturgy of the Church - the Christian marriage ceremony - to a longtime loving,
committed couple who just happen to be of the same gender. Two men, twentyyear members of Arch Street United Methodist Church, one of whom was very
seriously ill year ago, and while he was contemplating his life requested that, if at
all possible, at some point we would love to be married to his twenty-year partner
- twenty-five-year partner - and he would love to be married in the Church that he
he loves.
Little did we know that we'd be able to make that dream come true, and as I said
in my homily that day, he could have been wanting to do anything. He could've
wanted to say, "Dear God, make me straight so I'll go to heaven," but he didn't.
He said, "Let me celebrate the love that I know and the person that God made
me to be, and let me do it in my Church." And that is at the center of what we did
on November 9th.
Headlines have said that we were defying the Church - that is not true. We were
offering the liturgy and the ceremony and the welcome of the Church to fully
include a gay couple into the worship of our Church.
[WG]: Did you put the service together yourself?
[RH]: I was assisted with several other clergy, and yes, I worked with Bill and
Rick, the couple, to design the service as they had wished, as well as our music
director and musician - like I would do any wedding.
[WG]: Sure. Sure. Robin, I am a pastor myself, and so I am sensing the
compassion that I hear in your voice for those two guys and for their desire to
have the Church bless their relationship. Thinking of myself in your situation, I
think compassion would be there; I also think anger would be there in me. I don't
know whether that's true for you or not, but is it a mixture of feelings about love

for your denomination and also anger at their reticence to move forward?
[RH]: I don't know if anger is the word is the word for me. I think I am angry at
times. I am frustrated at times. I have a mixture of emotions. But the motivating
factor for that wedding on the 9th of November was the love and compassion I
saw in one of my clergy colleagues, Frank Schaefer, for his own son and his own
family. And everything we did was not motivated by anger at the Church or anger
at any wing of the Church; our motivation was the love and the grace of God that
we believe is all-encompassing and all-inclusive.
The service itself was a celebration of love - God's love - redeeming, God's
welcoming, God's gracious love to every and all people. That's what was the
message that we were sending.
[WG]: I'm not at all surprised at that, listening to the tone of your voice and again
hearing the compassion you feel. There were other clergy standing with you,
endorsing that; what is the real risk that the officiating clergy members were
taking by being there?
[RH]: The same risk that Frank Schaeffer faced going into his trial; the same risk
that he faced in his decision to perform the same-gender marriage ceremony for
his son. We risk being the object of a complaint and entering into that process:
first supervisory process, and then, beyond that, a charge that we violated the
Discipline.
One of the, I think, tragedies of the trial that we just witnessed was it was so
narrowly focused. No one was allowed to really open up the entire document of
the Book of Discipline. There are no inconsistencies there, and there are
opportunities to demonstrate good pastoral care, even in the midst of what others
would say is a violation of the Discipline. It's really a very, very - it was a missed
opportunity in many respects, because it could have been an opportunity for real
dialogue, as opposed to simple ecclesiastical judgment and justice. Justice was
not served - not ecclesiastical judgment.
It could have been an opportunity for the trial court to, among themselves, talk
about how this might be a restorative justice opportunity; in fact, witness Janet
Wolf so, so beautifully articulated how the Church could've operated in this - and
they missed an opportunity to do that.
[WG]: Am I right - I mean, I got this implicitly, not explicitly - but if a same-gender
marriage takes place with Methodist clergy presiding, is it let alone unless there
is a specific complaint?
[RH]: A complaint must be filed...
[WG]: Okay. Okay.

[RH]: That doesn't mean it's let alone. I mean, there may be some other
process that could take place, but in terms of going to a trial or getting to the
point where we we were with Frank Schaeffer - unless a complaint is filed, there
may be some other conversations, but there would be no reason for any
discipline or for any other action.
[WG]: I know that you were able to be, at least one day of the trial, and family
illness kept you from the other day; what was that like?
[RH]: It was surreal. I mean, to me it was anachronistic - archaic, really, is the
word, not anachronistic, archaic - it just seemed like, haven't we grown from this?
We've learned new ways. I mean, look at the world, and the Truth and
Reconciliation Commission in South Africa, and restorative justice that the
Mennonites and others practice. We've come so far from just simple
straightforward, "Oh, you broke a rule, and you need to be punished for that." We
should be well beyond that. And for me, that was the real tragedy of that. We
didn't call upon the wisdom and the tradition that Methodists say we can call
upon to really allow the Holy Spirit to move into a situation like that; we just took
the low road and said, "Just the facts, and don't even think or talk or live into why
the facts are the way they are."
[WG]: As I understand it, the thirty day suspension given to Rev. Schaeffer also
requires that he renounce his position on inclusive marriage; am I right that he
has said that he will stand his ground?
[RH]: My understanding is that unless he states unequivocally that he can keep
the entire Book of Discipline, then he is being asked to surrender his orders.
That's what I understand the verdict to be. You know, there will be a lot of
discussion and interpretation of all of that, I'm sure. It seems to me cruel and
unusual punishment in that they're asking him to surrender his orders.
[WG]: Right. I'm not taking issue with the Methodist Church, because my
denomination's not real good on this either, but it would seem, I think, that that a
denomination would not want a pastor in their midst that held a conviction that
led him to stand for trial - and then, because they told him to, changed his mind!
[RH]: Yeah. It seems to be very confusing.
[WG]: How can this change?
[RH]: Oh, I think it changes by what we did on the 9th; I think we have to create a
grassroots movement. I think laity and clergy and community supporters and
allies really need just to make it clear that in our context - especially the context
of a Center City congregation like mine - we need to take the context into
consideration.

The other thing is we need to really debate and answer and talk about what's
really at the root of this - and that is the great divide, division, not only in our
Church, but in all communities, about homosexuality or one's gender identity or
sexual orientation, because it's clear that the prosecuting side of all of this holds
the belief - and the unwavering belief - that homosexuality is a sin; whereas I
believe that one's sexual orientation, homosexuality, is part of our very being, it's
part of our creative nature, it's who God made us. And so that's the real
question: do you believe it's sin, or do you believe it's a part of who people truly
are, by God 's making at their birth?
And until we are honest enough to ask that question and create what I would call
a biased balance - see, part of what I would challenge at the trial court - was
there a biased balance there? Because the right question, I think, at the outset
probably wasn't asked. You know, if the question was, "Do you believe
homosexuality is a sin or do you believe a person's sexual orientation is a gift
from God?" And I think if we can honestly start at that place, we know where
people are.
That's why that prohibition is in the Discipline, because those who think that
homosexuality is a sin had been able to muster enough votes to make that
statement be there! The rest of us who have followed medical science, have
seen psychiatry move homosexuality away from a disorder into a natural part of a
person being - I mean, all of science and all of our experience at this point - even
Governor Christie of New Jersey is saying conversion therapy is really not
healthy, is not helpful. And it's harmful.
So part of that is where this discussion has to get. And we're not going to get
there in legislative sessions because folks just want to cut conversation; we need
to create conversation. And that's what the wedding did. The wedding created
more conversation and has allowed folks who have been relegated to the wings
and to the shadows of the Church to come out and say, "I believe that you're
doing the right thing."
[WG]: Rev. Hynicka, I've got one other question: just imagine that in some
situation, you're sitting with a family member or a member of your congregation
who opposes marriage equality in the Church, and they say: "Why is this so
terribly important to you?" How do you answer that?
[RH]: Well, I, based on my experience with - pastoral experience with - folks who
have come out to me over the years, over my thirty-five years of ministry,
beginning in college; where friends in college came out and spoke of the isolation
and the fear and the heartache that they feared they were giving their parents
and giving their friends. And watching and living out, and watching folks and
pastoring; living out of my friendships and my pastoral care over these years.
And just seeing people work hard at trying to make change, or to hide, to be

behind closed doors, and just seeing them blossom when they were able to
accept themselves for who God had made them to be. It's based on my
experience, it's based on my understanding of good medical science and good
psychological science. It's based on my reading of Scripture. I believe God is
love. And Jesus - really, Jesus spoke more about greed and how we misuse our
resources than he ever spoke about this topic. Never spoke about this topic.
And if someone disagrees with me, for me, I say to them that this is how I've
come to this conclusion, and I give them some very specific examples about
people I've known along the way, and I say, this is why I believe. But if you don't
believe the way I do, that's fine with me. I can still be your pastor, I can still love
you; but if that's a dealbreaker for you to be under my leadership or to be in this
church, then let me help you find a place where you can get the pastoral care
you want, and worship the way you need to worship at this point in your life. I am
not going to hold you back, I am not going to condemn you for being where you
are; but I need you to know where I am. And in fact, every person who comes to
me in seeking membership, we have that conversation upfront, so they know
exactly where I am. And if it's not a dealbreaker for them - even if they disagree
with me - we welcome each other with open arms and we go about our way and
we do God's work.
[WG]: The Rev. Robin Hynicka is pastor of Arch Street United Methodist Church
in Philadelphia. Even as the issue of marriage equality painfully divides the
denomination, he recently officiated the wedding of two men at his church that
was co-officiated by over fifty fellow clergy members.
Rev. Hynicka, I want you to know that you have admirers and supporters, and
your integrity is self-evident in the words you say and in the actions you take. I
really do appreciate you being with us today.
Let me say, the church website offers a moving statement on why they chose to
do what they did and we'll link to that website from stateofbelief.com.
Sir, thank you so much for being with us
[RH]: Thank you for your time. I appreciate your support and my prayers are with
you. Continue to offer the grace of God to everyone, regardless of their sexual
orientation or gender identity.
[WG]: Thank you, sir.
[RH]: God bless you.

State of Belief is based on the proposition that religion has a positive and healing
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Author of more than 20 books, including First Freedom First: A Citizens Guide to
Protecting Religious Liberty and the Separation of Church and State, the Rev.
Dr. C. Welton Gaddy leads the national non-partisan grassroots and educational
organization Interfaith Alliance and serves as Pastor for Preaching and Worship
at Northminster (Baptist) Church in Monroe, Louisiana.
In addition to being a prolific writer, Dr. Gaddy hosts the weekly State of Belief
radio program, where he explores the role of religion in the life of the nation by
illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in America, while exposing and critiquing
both the political manipulation of religion for partisan purposes and the religious
manipulation of government for sectarian purposes.
Dr. Gaddy provides regular commentary to the national media on issues relating
to religion and politics. He has appeared on MSNBCs The Rachel Maddow
Show and Hardball, NBCs Nightly News and Dateline, PBSs Religion and
Ethics Newsweekly and The Newshour with Jim Lehrer, C-SPANs Washington
Journal, ABCs World News, and CNNs American Morning. Former host of
Morally Speaking on NBC affiliate KTVE in Monroe, Louisiana, Dr. Gaddy is a
regular contributor to mainstream and religious news outlets.
While ministering to churches with a message of inclusion, Dr. Gaddy emerged
as a leader among progressive and moderate Baptists. Among his many

leadership roles, he is a past president of the Alliance of Baptists and has been a
20-year member of the Commission of Christian Ethics of the Baptist World
Alliance. His past leadership roles include serving as a member of the General
Council of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, President of Americans United for
Separation of Church and State, Chair of the Pastoral Leadership Commission of
the Baptist World Alliance and member of the World Economic Forums Council
of 100. Rev. Gaddy currently serves on the White House task force on the reform
of the Office of Faith Based and Neighborhood Partnerships.
Prior to the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC),
Dr. Gaddy served in many SBC leadership roles including as a member of the
conventions Executive Committee from 1980-84 and Director of Christian
Citizenship Development of the Christian Life Commission from 1973-77.
Dr. Gaddy received his undergraduate degree from Union University in Jackson,
Tennessee and his doctoral degree and divinity training from the Southern
Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.