INTERFAITH ALLIANCE STATE OF BELIEF RADIO JULY 26, 2014

RUSH TRANSCRIPT: Kate Kendell

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[GREG LEBEL, SUBSTITUTE HOST]: Im Greg Lebel, Assistant
Professor of Political Management at the George Washington
University, flling in for your host Welton Gaddy.
It may be hard for many of us to understand, but there continues to
be a desperate hunger among some Americans - especially
conservative Christian Americans - to somehow identify members of
the LGBT community as sufering from a curable condition.
Even as a number of prominent perpetrators of ex-gay therapy have
abandoned the philosophy and apologized for the harm done in
recent years and several states have outlawed it for minors, the
practice continues.
Now, the National Center for Lesbian Rights has launched a
campaign to cure this cure - to abolish reparative therapy. Its called
#bornperfect.
Kate Kendell is the Executive Director of the National Center for
Lesbian Rights.
Kate, welcome to State of Belief Radio!
[KATE KENDELL, GUEST]: So happy to be here, Greg, thank you!
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[GL]: So listen, lets just dive right in. Why did the National Center for
Lesbian Rights decide to make this issue a priority?
[KK]: We launched the #bornperfect campaign, now, about two
months ago; and its the campaign to end conversion therapy in fve
years. But its important to understand that we didnt just come to this
issue two months ago. In fact, I started being aware of conversion
therapy when I was at the ACLU in Utah this is now 23 years ago
and Shannon Minter, who now is our legal director but was then the
Youth Project director at NCLR called me at the ACLU and said, look,
theres a facility in the middle of the state in Utah that is
institutionalizing permitting young people to be institutionalized by
their parents because of their sexual orientation. And I remember
being shocked by this. I couldnt believe that could actually be done.
Well, it turns out it was being done. And that was the beginning of my
understanding that parents because they love their kids, and they
think that sexual orientation can and should be changed, and they
think their life as a gay person is going to be more difcult seek out
these quack therapists to change their sexual orientation. And what
they do is untold damage.
We are fnally at a moment in that 23 years that has passed since
then where there is a unanimity of social science research that says
this is bad and dangerous and damaging and does no good, and
sexual orientation cant be changed. And that is intersecting with a
greater level of just public and community understanding and support
for LGBT issues. So we felt like this was the perfect time to launch an
ambitious campaign that says every kid is born perfect; how they
identify who they are is perfect, cannot and should not be changed;
and making the bold but we think completely doable - proclamation
that we can end conversion therapy in fve years.
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[GL]: I think its a great title, by the way.
[KK]: Thank you. Thank you.
[GL]: I imagine most of our listeners are at least aware of ex-gay
therapy and what has been happening, but can you give us a sense
of the scope of this? How many people are afected by these attempts
at therapy, in quotes?
[KK]: You know, thats such an important question, because I do think
one of the things that we see even in the LGBT community, as we
talk about this work is one of the very frst responses we ever get is,
oh my gosh! You mean thats still going on?
And its really important for people to understand this is not a practice
that is falling by the wayside or that therapists no longer engage in or
is something that belonged to folks of my generation but is not being
practiced upon young people. There are still therapists in every single
state and I just defy people to not fnd therapists; you google
conversion therapy wherever you are, and you will fnd therapists, I
bet, within twenty miles of where you live who practice this quackery.
And so we have been fnding there is a survivors network that
Samantha Ames, who is the lead attorney in our ofce working on this
along with Shannon, along with Jef Coors, whos our state policy
strategist, along with me but Sam is in touch with these survivors,
and the survivor network is growing, and since we launched the
campaign even more individuals who see that there is some relief in
sight, that there is some advocacy there for them, have contacted us
with horror stories of conversion therapy that they were subjected to
maybe in some cases its 15 or 20 years ago, and in some cases its
two years ago, or last year and in every single case, what we were
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hearing from these survivors is that while they go on to thrive and
have wonderful lives, they never recover from the trauma of being told
every day that there is something wrong with you and disordered, and
that you must change.
And then of course there is a whole range of therapies that are used:
there are drugs that are used, theres aversion therapy thats used
its just a whole range of very traumatizing activities that are practiced
on you by the person you are supposed to trust to take care of your
mental health. And instead of that, they are really consigning folks to
a life of trauma, based on these practices.
[GL]: Im almost afraid to ask this question, but do you have a sense
of what proportion of the victims of this stuf are kids when they go
through it?
[KK]: Well, thats probably one of the most disturbing statistics,
because if you can make it to adulthood, you know, early 20s even
if you grew up in a time when sexual orientation and homosexual
identity was condemned, or gender identity other than completely
consistent with your birth gender was not completely condemned
youre still growing up in a culture, even today, with a lot of shame
around sexual orientation or gender identity that varies from what the
society says is dominant and says is the most accepted.
But if you can make it into your 20s, usually we see people being
able to stand on their own, and even if theyre carrying internalized
homophobia or shame they go to gay-supportive therapists to deal
with it, and they stand up to their families and maybe their families
come around to it.
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By far the overwhelming percentage of individuals who are pushed
into conversion therapy it happens to them when they are too young
to object to it. So were talking young people anywhere from ten years
old to 13, 14, 15 years old. The biggest bulk is probably in the 12 to
15 year range, just as kids I mean, Im a parent myself; I
understand how important those years are to a kids sense of self-
identity. Its when theyre coming into puberty, really bridging that gap
between being a child and being a young adult. And so those are the
years where theres a great deal of fragility, and a lot of damage can
be done in the wrong hands. And obviously, these folks bear the
scars for the rest of their life.
[GL]: So it's 2014. What is it that you think leads people to be
desperate enough to ignore the science that you noted at the
beginning to try to, as they say, "pray away the gay" for themselves,
or maybe even more signifcantly, for their children? What is it that
drives people to this?
[KK]: Well, answering that question is going to be really important to
our success - and what we feel like happens is that parents don't
know the science. They don't know the damage they are doing.
They still believe the lie that sexual orientation can be changed, or
that it should be changed; and they believe this based on religious
beliefs, where they believe their child is going to hell if their sexual
orientation is other than heterosexual. So parents are coming from an
impulse to, quote, "save" their kids.
And so I want to be clear: these are parents who, generally, are
uninformed about how dangerous the practices are. That they're
coming from a place of love, and I feel like our most important work - I
mean, even though we're going to pass legislation, and we have
already, in states to ban conversion therapy on minors, another key
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prong - and perhaps the most important prong - of our efort in this
campaign is to make sure that any parent who would consider
conversion therapy cannot ignore the fact that social science,
psychological institutions and associations unanimously condemn the
practice as not only not doing what it says it's supposed to do, which
is changing one's sex orientation, which can't be done; but that it
does tremendous long-term psychic and emotional damage.
And if we can educate parents, in addition to banning the practice in
states where that's possible, I think that is kind of the secret link in
ending conversion therapy in fve years. Because we may not be able
to pass bans in every single state; but if we can educate parents that
they understand: you will do more harm to your child than anything
that could happen to them living as an openly-LGBT person -
supporting that is how you best show you love your child, and save
them from damage and harm. Putting them into any sort of
conversion therapy - it will be traumatizing to them and will do
damage. And if parents come to understand that, I think that any
need for these services or the demand for these services will
diminish, or cease altogether, is what we're seeking.
[GL]: What is the situation in the states? I think, California, Gov.
Brown signed legislation banning conversion therapy. What about the
other 49 states?
[KK]: We have bans - we have successfully helped to draft legislation
and pass bans in California and New Jersey. In both of those
situations - the California law was challenged by practitioners of this
therapy and parents who want to continue to have their children be
subjected to it. We successfully defended the law in California, and
that case just ended, just a few months ago. We won at the trial court;
we won at the Ninth Circuit. The quacks who practice this appealed to
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the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court denied review. So in
California, it is now the law that it is unlawful to practice conversion
therapy on minors.
In New Jersey, the law was successfully passed; we won at the trial
court; and now that law is still on appeal. We're still on appeal in that
state.
We have lined up probably another half dozen states where we are
talking to legislators who are interested in introducing legislation. Rep.
David Robinson in Florida has introduced legislation and intends to
introduce it again; there are several other states where we're going to
see legislation introduced in this next legislative session.
So defnitely, there's a multi-pronged efort here. It's banning it, and
using those bans as a conversation to educate parents about the
damage done; and then also really condemning the practice so that
we limit the number of people who would practice this - to understand
that if you practice this, you're a quack. There's just no other word for
it. You are doing damage; you are not upholding the oath to take care
of people's mental health and to service them and to treat them in the
best way possible that honors them as individuals and human beings.
What you're engaging in is not only unlawful - in states where we can
make it unlawful - but it's just bad medicine.
So between all of those prongs, we're hopeful that we can achieve
our goal of coming to a day where you enter a Google search for
"conversion therapy" and you get no results, other than "the practice
no longer happens."
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[GL]: Tell us more about the education part of this. What are the nuts
and bolts of the education piece, in terms of reaching out to parents
with this message - how does that work?
[KK]: One thing that has been perhaps the most moving and also
gratifying aspect of this work since we launched #bornperfect is that
more and more survivors are telling their own story. Because, look, I
can talk 'til I'm blue in the face about how damaging that is and how
dangerous this is; but when you hear it from a young woman or a
young man who was subjected to it - that is the most powerful voice.
So pushing out survivors' stories, which we have on our website. We
have a #bornperfect subset of our website, those stories are available
there; there's going to be a very aggressive media campaign to push
out these stories, and to have these stories front and center; joined by
- and this is going to be launched later this week - joined by former
advocates of conversion therapy: individuals who identifed as "ex-
gay," who were involved in organizations like Exodus, for example,
that trafcked in the lie that one can change or should change their
sexual orientation. They themselves are now disavowing their
previous position and endorsing our view that sexual orientation
cannot and should not be changed. Those are going to be very
powerful voices, and you're going to see a lot of coverage of those
voices in the coming weeks.
And then fnally, parents. Parents who who made the decision out of
a place of love to enroll their kids in some sort of conversion therapy,
and now have come to regret it and recognize that it was the worst
decision they ever made; and it did it really unspeakable damage,
and if they had it to do over again they would never do it. And that
parent-to-parent communication is going to be enormously
important.
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So those are some of the key components that you'll see in the next
few months of the rollout.
[GL]: Gotcha. Kate, we're running out of time, but I want to fnd out
how our listeners can get involved in the campaign. Can you quickly
let us know how that would work?
[KK]: Oh, absolutely. Please contact us at info@NCLrights - N-C-L-R-
I-G-H-T-S - dot org. Info@NCLrights.org. Let us know if you're
survivor; let us know if you want to help in any way; let us know how
we can contact you. You can defnitely fnd more materials on our
website. You can also e-mail me directly: K-Kendell, K-E-N-D-E-L-L,
@NCLrights.org, and if you want to just have a private message, talk
to me about a situation and how you want to help, just let us know.
We can only do this as a community that unites. NCLR can't do it
alone, but between survivors, between "ex-gay" folks who recognize
the lie of conversion therapy, and between parents and survivors, we
are going to end conversion therapy in fve years.
[GL]: Kate Kendell is the Executive Director of the National Center for
Lesbian Rights. NCLR has just launched a new campaign to stamp
out discredited "ex-gay" therapies. It's called #bornperfect.
Kate, thanks so much for being with us today on State of Belief Radio.
[KK]: It was a total pleasure, Greg. Thank you.

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Kate Kendell leads the National Center for Lesbian Rights, a national
legal organization committed to advancing the civil and human rights
of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people and their families
through litigation, public policy advocacy, and public education.
NCLRs legal, policy, and legislative victories set important
precedents that improve the lives of all LGBT people and their
families across the country. Projects and Legal Issue Areas Include:
Asylum & Immigration; Elders; Employment; Family & Relationships;
Federal Legislation & Policy; State Legislation & Policy; Hate Crimes;
Healthcare; Housing; Low Income & Poverty; Prisons; Rural
Communities; Sports; Transgender Law; and Youth.
Kate grew up Mormon in Utah and received her J.D. degree from the
University of Utah College of Law in 1988. After a few years as a
corporate attorney she was named the frst staf attorney for the
American Civil Liberties Union of Utah. In this capacity, she oversaw
the legal department of ACLU of Utah and directly litigated many
high-profle cases focusing on all aspects of civil liberties, including
reproductive rights, prisoners rights, church/state conficts, free
speech, and the rights of LGBT people. In 1994 she accepted the
position as Legal Director with the National Center for Lesbian Rights
and made the move to San Francisco. As Legal Director, Kate was
responsible for strategy and vision for NCLRs legal program
including coordination of all litigation, amicus curiae participation, and
litigation strategy.
In 1996 Kate was named as NCLRs Executive Director. In that
capacity, she assists in the development of litigation and litigation
strategy, and is responsible for all aspects of agency operation, and
development of strategy. She is also responsible for executing a
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broad and forward thinking vision around all policy and project
initiatives.
Kate acts as the primary spokesperson on behalf of NCLR to the
media. She has appeared in hundreds of media outlets including the
New York Times, Washington Post, Good Morning America, CNN,
and dozens of on-line blogs. Kate is also a visible and vibrant social
media voice.
Kate lives in San Francisco with her spouse and their children.

Gregory G. Lebel is Assistant Professor of Political Management and

Director of the Semester in Washington Program at The George
Washington University. Semester in Washington ofers academic
training in American politics and practical experience in Washington
internships to undergraduate students from around the country and
abroad.
Mr. Lebel has more than 20 years of experience in management of
public and non-proft organizations, as well as 10 years of teaching
experience at the graduate school level. He has established
substantial credentials as an ethicist, activist, lobbyist, grassroots
organizer, and political campaign expert. He is a member of the
Takoma Park, Maryland Ethics Commission, and served on the ethics
committee of the American Association of Political Consultants. He
has taught courses on ethics, religion and politics, and campaign
organization at The Graduate School of Political Management at The
George Washington University in Washington, DC, where he served
as Assistant Dean from 1991 until 1994.
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State of Belief is based on the proposition that religion has a positive

and healing role to play in the life of the nation. The show explains
and explores that role by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in
America the most religiously diverse country in the world while
exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion for
partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government for
sectarian purposes.
Each week, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy ofers listeners critical
analysis of the news of religion and politics, and seeks to provide
listeners with an understanding and appreciation of religious liberty.
Rev. Gaddy tackles politics with the frm belief that the best way to
secure freedom for religion in America is to secure freedom from
religion. State of Belief illustrates how the Religious Right is wrong
wrong for America and bad for religion.
Through interviews with celebrities and newsmakers and feld reports
from around the country, State of Belief explores the intersection of
religion with politics, culture, media, and activism, and promotes
diverse religious voices in a religiously pluralistic world.

Author of more than 20 books, including First Freedom First: A

Citizens Guide to Protecting Religious Liberty and the Separation of
Church and State, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy leads the national
non-partisan grassroots and educational organization Interfaith
Alliance and serves as Pastor for Preaching and Worship at
Northminster (Baptist) Church in Monroe, Louisiana.
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In addition to being a prolifc writer, Dr. Gaddy hosts the weekly State
of Belief radio program, where he explores the role of religion in the
life of the nation by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in America,
while exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion
for partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government
for sectarian purposes.
Dr. Gaddy provides regular commentary to the national media on
issues relating to religion and politics. He has appeared on MSNBCs
The Rachel Maddow Show and Hardball, NBCs Nightly News and
Dateline, PBSs Religion and Ethics Newsweekly and The Newshour
with Jim Lehrer, C-SPANs Washington Journal, ABCs World News,
and CNNs American Morning. Former host of Morally Speaking on
NBC afliate KTVE in Monroe, Louisiana, Dr. Gaddy is a regular
contributor to mainstream and religious news outlets.
While ministering to churches with a message of inclusion, Dr. Gaddy
emerged as a leader among progressive and moderate Baptists.
Among his many leadership roles, he is a past president of the
Alliance of Baptists and has been a 20-year member of the
Commission of Christian Ethics of the Baptist World Alliance. His past
leadership roles include serving as a member of the General Council
of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, President of Americans United
for Separation of Church and State, Chair of the Pastoral Leadership
Commission of the Baptist World Alliance and member of the World
Economic Forums Council of 100. Rev. Gaddy currently serves on
the White House task force on the reform of the Ofce of Faith Based
and Neighborhood Partnerships.
Prior to the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist
Convention (SBC), Dr. Gaddy served in many SBC leadership roles
including as a member of the conventions Executive Committee from
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1980-84 and Director of Christian Citizenship Development of the
Christian Life Commission from 1973-77.
Dr. Gaddy received his undergraduate degree from Union University
in Jackson, Tennessee and his doctoral degree and divinity training
from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville,
Kentucky.
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