Posted by CSA on 12 August, 2008 - 1:01 am

Isn't it obvious? It does so because it is commanded to do so, you said so yourself.

All good generators do as commanded, don't they?

Seriously, though, and in as few words as possible, when an operator clicks on Raise
Spd/Ld or increases the Pre-Selected Load Control setpoint when the unit is being
operated in Pre-Selected Load Control mode the fuel flow-rate into the turbine is
increased, which increases the torque being produced by the turbine, which the generator
converts to amps, which results in an increase in load.

For the exact details of what's happening, read on.

If one wants to make something spin, one needs to supply some force to it. That force is
usually referred to as torque. The more torque applied to something, the faster it will
usually spin. Decrease the torque applied to something, and it will usually slow down.

A gas turbine is a device that produces torque, and the amount of torque being produced
can be varied, and is in direct proportion (usually) to the amount of fuel being burned in
the combustor(s) of the gas turbine. Increase the fuel flow-rate, and the amount of torque
being produced by the turbine will increase. Decrease the fuel flow-rate, and the amount
of torque being produced by the turbine will decrease.

The generator (more correctly called an alternator) used with GE-design heavy duty gas
turbines is a synchronous generator. It is the nature of synchronous generators being
operated in parallel with other synchronous generators on an AC grid to supply a load
which is much greater than any single generator that they will all be running at the same
speed, and no single generator and its prime mover (the gas turbine in your case) can
operate at speeds higher or lower than the other generators with which is it connected,
because they are synchronous generators (alternators).

There is a formula that describes the relationship between the frequency of an AC system
and the speed and type of synchronous generators connected to the system: F = (P *
N)/120, where F is the frequency (in Hertz) of the grid, P is the number of poles of the
generators (an even number never less than two, and the number of poles of any
generator is usually fixed and can't be changed while the generator is running), and N is
the speed of the generator rotor, usually the field (in RPM). The (synchronous) generators
used with Frame 9E GE-design heavy duty gas turbines are two-pole generators and are
directly connected to the turbines (i.e., there is no reduction gear between the turbine and
the generator, and the generator is not connected to a "free" turbine which spins
independently of the axial compressor of the turbine), so that's why the 100% speed
rating of the turbine is 3000 RPM because the grid the generator is connected to is a 50
Hz system (nominally). (Note there are no approximations in this formula, and note that
speed and frequency are directly proportional. Increase the speed of a synchronous
generator and it's frequency will increase; decrease the frequency of a grid to which a
generator is connected and the generator speed will decrease proportionally; speed and
frequency are directly related.
So, we've established that when a two-pole (synchronous) generator is connected to a 50
Hz grid with other generators that it will be operating at 3000 RPM (N = (120 * 50)/2 =
3000 RPM), and when the prime mover (the turbine) is directly coupled to the generator
that it, too, will spin at 3000 RPM. Again, this is because the generator rotor is locked
into the same speed (in synchronism with) the other generators at a speed that is dictated
by the frequency of the grid and the number of poles of the generator (which never
changes), and the turbine shaft is directly connected/coupled to the generator rotor.

Further, it is the nature of most AC grids that there are so many generators, of various
number of poles, so many all supplying such a large load that any one single generator
and its prime mover can't usually have any appreciable effect on the frequency of all the
other generators and the speeds of their prime movers (unless the prime mover being
loaded or unloaded has a very large power rating/capacity in relation to all the other
generators and the load).

When a generator is accelerated to rated speed during starting prior to synchronization,

the prime mover is producing just enough torque to keep the generator (and turbine and
compressor, in this case) speed equal to the frequency of the grid (in this case, 3000
RPM). When the unit is synchronized, the power "output" of the generator is very low,
usually, because during synchronization the turbine speed (and generator frequency) is
adjusted to be just slightly higher than a speed which would be equal to grid frequency.
This means that there is slightly more torque being produced by the turbine than is
required to keep the generator rotor spinning at a frequency equal to grid frequency.
When the generator breaker is closed, the speed of the generator rotor, and the turbine
and axial compressor, actually slows down. Yes, that's right; the speed decreases because
once the generator breaker closes the generator is then locked into synchronous speed
which is a speed that is proportional to the grid frequency of all the other generators it's
now operating in parallel with.

During synchronization, the fuel flow-rate, on the other hand, is held constant once the
desired speed is achieved, which means that the torque is being held constant. During
synchronization, when the turbine (and generator) speed is increased to be just slightly
above grid frequency there is more torque being produced than is required to keep the
rotor spinning at a speed that is equal to grid frequency. When the generator breaker
closes and the generator speed slows down, which slows down the turbine, the torque
remains the same because the fuel was not changed. That extra torque is converted into
amps by the generator, and more amps equals more load. That's what a generator is: a
device for converting torque into amps. (A motor is a device for converting amps into
torque. Actually, the only difference between a motor and a generator is the "direction" of
current- and torque flow into or out of the machine.)

The basic formula for power (Watts) is: P = V * I, where P is power (in Watts), V is
generator terminal voltage (in Volts), and I is armature current (the alternating current
flowing in the stator of the generator). (For a three-phase generator the entire formula is P
= V* I * (3^(0.5)) * PF, where, 3^(0.5) is the square root of three (a fixed value, 1.732, I
think), and PF is the power factor of the generator (which is a number never greater than
1.0, and which we will presume to be 1.0 for the purposes of our discussion).
Coincidentally, the terminal voltage of most synchronous generators is almost a fixed
value, as well, and doesn't usually vary by more than approximately +/- 5.0%, which on
an 11,0000 Volt generator is only about 550 Volts (out of 11,000).

So, since one of the terms of the three-phase power formula *is* a fixed value (the square
root of three), and we are presuming one of the terms (PF) to be fixed and equal to 1.0,
and the generator terminal voltage is, for all intents and purposes, a fixed value, the way
that a generator produces more power is to increase the number of amps flowing in the
stator. The way that amps are increased in the generator stator is by providing more
torque from the turbine into the generator; more torque equals more amps. Less torque
equals less amps. (We are presuming that the prime mover is always producing at least
sufficient torque to keep the generator rotor spinning at synchronous speed. When it
doesn't, the generator actually becomes a motor and keeps spinning at synchronous speed
and draws current from other generators on the grid. This is what's known as "reverse
power" or, "motorizing the generator." It's *very* bad for steam turbines and
reciprocating engines even for very short periods of time; not so injurious for gas turbines
for short periods of times, especially single-shaft gas turbines like GE-design heavy duty
Frame 9E gas turbines.)

Now some people are going to say that when a unit with a GE Speedtronic turbine control
system is automatically synchronized to the grid that it loads up to "Spinning Reserve",
and they are correct. There is some logic that, once the generator breaker is closed during
auto synch'ing, increases the amount of fuel being put into the turbine which increases the
torque being produced by the turbine and since the turbine speed can't increase (because
it's directly coupled to the (synchronous) generator which is now connected to the grid
and it's speed is being controlled by the frequency of the grid to which it's connected) the
extra torque that's being produced by the addition of the fuel gets converted into amps.

So, it should be clear that torque, amps, and load are proportional to each other. An
increase in fuel results in an increase in torque which results in an increase in load; a
decrease in torque results in a decrease in amps which results in a decrease in load.

Now. for a GE-design heavy duty gas turbine to be operated in parallel with other
generators on a grid, it is operated in Droop speed control mode. This is one of two
governing modes for most prime movers (Isochronous being the other one) and is the
mode that allows the turbine and generator to smoothly and stably participate in powering
a large load while paralleled with other generators. (Some people refer to this as "sharing
load", and while that's technically correct the same term is also used in another
description of Droop speed control and this double usage causes lots of problems for
most people. So, we're going to refer Droop speed control mode as the governor (control
system) mode that allows the stable and smooth production of power by a prime mover
and generator when connected to a grid with other generators.)

We discussed what happens during synchronization, when the turbine speed is increased
to make the generator frequency just slightly higher than the grid frequency (this is
generally referred to as speed matching). And to increase the speed requires an increase
in torque, which comes from increasing the fuel flow-rate to the turbine. When the
generator breaker is closed, the turbine speed can't change and any attempt to increase the
turbine speed will just cause additional torque to be produced, and the generator converts
the torque to amps, which becomes load.

When a GE-design heavy duty gas turbine with a Speedtronic turbine control panel is
being operated in Droop speed control mode, and the operator wants to raise or lower the
load, what happens is that the turbine speed reference is increased or decreased, which
causes the fuel flow-rate to be increased or decreased, in an attempt to make the actual
turbine speed increase or decrease by increasing or decreasing the amount of torque being
produced by the turbine. But, since the actual turbine speed can't increase or decrease,
any torque increase results in an increase in amps which results in an increase in load,
and any torque decrease results in a decrease in amps which results in a decrease in load.

So, when an operator clicks on Raise Spd/Ld or increases the Pre-Selected Load Setpoint
when the unit is being operated in Pre-Selected Load Control, what's really happening is
that the turbine speed reference is increasing, which results in more fuel being admitted
to the turbine, which results in extra torque which can't result in increased speed so the
generator converts the torque to amps, which results in an increase in load.

And all good generators do as commanded, especially when it's at the behest of a Mark V
Speedtronic turbine control system.
Reply to this post...

Posted by Mikas on 12 August, 2008 - 10:36 pm

That is great explanation CSA.

I'd like to extend this story on steam turbines. I believe that basic logic is the same: what
is fuel with gas turbines, that is steam with steam turbines. If generator's circuit breaker is
open, then more steam supplied to the turbine will cause turbine to rotate faster, but after
immediately after synchronization, more steam will produce more torque and because,
speed is constant, there will be more amps and hence, more power output to the grid.

However, there are some things that are not clear to me. Generator's output power can be
increased by adding more steam to the turbine, say, by opening turbine's control valves (I
assume turbine has only high pressure and low pressure stage). I think that turbine can
increase its torque also by not opening control valves, but increasing steam pressure
which is equivalent.

I wonder what approach is used more frequently.

I also believe it has a lot of in common with so called "exploatation concept" (turbine or
boiler leading).

In turbine leading mode, turbine's controller is controlling power output by adjusting

control valves. That, inevitably, leads to steam's pressure changing. In such case, boiler
controller is increasing or decreasing coal feeders speed. More speed means more coal in
the boiler. More coal in the boiler means more heat, more heat means higher pressure (or
more steam!?!).

Am I on the right track?

Thanks.
Reply to this post...

Posted by electrics on 12 June, 2009 - 2:05 pm

Hello,

I ponder on this issue for a long time, there are a few questions if you allow me to ask sir.

now, if we increase the load of a syn. generator while opeating under normal conditions
and doesn't increase the fuel so what happens? i think if we don't increase the fuel any so
the generator will begin to slow and it will stop till the kinetic energy of the primemover
and alternator is consumed totally and the generator will have so big currents true? but
this is just a amateurish guess pls tell me what happens if frequency controller doesnt
intervene with the load incrase? in theory now the load is not equal the power being
produced so what happens? this is my first question.

my second question is, they always say that the generator speed gets slower if load
increases, so this is a matter reagrding frequency controller or the nature of a sync.
generator?

"The mechanical source of power for the generator is a prime mover such as diesel
engines or steam, gas, water, and wind turbines. All prime movers behave in a similar
fashion. As the power drawn from them increases, the rotational speed decreases. In
general, this decrease in speed is nonlinear. However, the governor makes this decrease
in speed linear with increasing power demand." for example this is a passage from a
book, so pls tell me how can a sync. gen can get slower as load increases? what makes it
to slow down?

I also wanna ask you as third question, a diesel generator has a slightly higher frequency
than 50 hz while working no-load true? so does it make difference between working
alone and working in synchronisation with an infinite grid? if true why need to be a bit
higher than 50 ?

pls englihten me sir...

Reply to this post...

Posted by Enric_Tgn on 12 August, 2008 - 2:34 am

In essence, you are increasing the torque applied on the generator shaft (power, but speed
is constant) And this increases the angle between Eo (induced voltage in stator) and the
voltage at output terminals (theoretical U and f, constants, and connected to an infinite
power net). This angle is torque-dependant (called torque angle) more angle > more
power delivered > more power drained from driving machine. If the generator is working
as a motor, this angle is negative. If the machine is under no load condition (open circuit)
this angle is 0.
Reply to this post...

Posted by Kushwaha_r_k on 27 October, 2008 - 4:12 pm

It's true that more fuel to prime mover increases the torque, which increases the load
angle in the generator. It's also true that magnetic field strength of rotor increases as load
angle increases, which causes to increase the current through stator windings thus the
MW. But what causes the rotor current to increase, i.e. excitation current to increase?
Reply to this post...

Posted by CSA on 28 October, 2008 - 5:21 am

Rotor field strength is a function of excitation current from the synchronous generator
exciter, sometimes referred to as the "AVR" (Automatic Voltage Regulator). The AVR,
when operating in automatic mode, is attempting to keep the generator terminal voltage
equal to the generator terminal voltage setpoint by varying the excitation current applied
to the generator rotor which is directly proportional to the rotor field strength.

As the current in the stator windings increases, the tendency is for the generator terminal
voltage to decrease (because of what's called "armature reaction"), but the AVR will
increase the excitation current which increases rotor field strength which overcomes
armature reaction to keep the generator terminal voltage constant.

So, I take exception to your statement that it's true "that magnetic field strength of rotor
increases as load angle increases, which causes to increase the current through stator
windings thus the MW". One cannot appreciably change the load (MW) of a synchronous
generator by changing the rotor field strength; it's done by changing the torque being
applied to the generator.

The increase in rotor field strength is the *result* of increased stator amps which are
tending to decrease generator terminal voltage, not the cause of increased stator amps. If
the stator amps are increased (by increasing the torque applied to the generator rotor) and
nothing was done to change the rotor field strength the generator terminal voltage would
decrease and the reactive power output of the generator would change.

Remember the formula for the power produced by a three-phase synchronous generator:
P = V * I * (3^(0.5) * PF. Look at the rating of the generator's terminal voltage; it's
usually plus or minus 5% of some nominal value, say 11 KV, or 13.8 KV. So, about the
maximum effect one can have on the output of the generator with the rotor field strength
is to change it by plus or minus 5%, which is very little, and that's only under
theoretically ideal conditions.

So, one does not usually change the load (MW) of a synchronous generator by changing
rotor field strength; that's done by changing the amount of torque being applied to the
generator rotor. If the torque is increased, the amperes flowing in the generator stator
windings increase, which increases the armature reaction which tends to decrease the
generator terminal voltage. So, to maintain generator terminal voltage, the exciter
regulator output is increased which causes more rotor field strength.

If you really want to understand armature reaction, you can send your name, the name of
the company you are employed by (or he'll probably take the name of your school if
you're a student), and your email address to cepsicon@aol.com and request a copy of his
armature reaction document.
Reply to this post...

Posted by ssv on 31 March, 2010 - 10:11 am

While increasing fuel flow, torque will increase, which in turn will increase torque angle
and which in turn will increase more current at the stator and so MW which in turn will
increase armature reaction and which in turn will increase rotor field current to maintain
the terminal voltage. All this is clear.

Now my confusion is as follows:

As we know that Torque = Force * angular displacement. Now for increasing load we
just increase fuel to the turbine so as to get more torque. But my question is we don't have
the angular displacement of the rotor because the rotor speed is locked once it is on grid,
so as per above equation the Torque would be zero because again the speed is fixed. So
How we are increasing the Torque by increasing fuel ? to get our desired MW. What is
the mechanism happening which is causing Torque to become more ? even while angular
displacement is zero.

Please don't tell me that torque is increased due to increase in fuel. My query is WHY as
per above explanation.

Best Regards
SSV
Reply to this post...

Posted by CSA on 31 March, 2010 - 1:29 pm

When the generator rotor is locked in synchronous speed with other generators on a large
grid it is effectively a "brake" preventing any increase in speed which would normally be
the result of an increase in fuel.

When a generator is being synchronized with a grid, it is usually done so with the
generator rotor spinning slightly faster than synchronous speed (the synch scope is
rotating clock-wise in the Fast direction). When the generator breaker is closed the speed
of the generator rotor (and the turbine) slow down to synchronous speed, even though the
fuel is held constant. This results in a "positive" power output of the generator. The
"extra" speed (torque) that was causing the generator rotor to spin faster than
synchronous speed before the generator breaker was closed is converted to amperes in the
generator when the rotor speed is reduced to synchronous speed.

(If the synchroscope were held stationary at the 12 o'clock position and the generator
breaker were closed, there would be zero power output from the generator, because the
turbine is spinning the generator rotor at synchronous speed.)

Another way to think of it is that the turbine buckets are at a fixed distance from the
turbine shaft. Hot gases impinging on the turbine buckets develop torque (force x
distance, right?). Increasing the temperature of the hot gases increases the force and
therefore the (force x distance) and therefore the torque.

But, the generator rotor, because it's locked into synchronous speed with the grid, can't be
spun any faster even though the turbine rotor is "twisting" the load coupling shaft harder
because of the increased torque. That's the torque angle, the increased twist being applied
to try to spin the generator rotor faster than synchronous speed.

Again, torque is force x distance. If the distance is fixed, then increasing the force (by
increasing the fuel) will increase the torque.

If a turbine-generator is producing power at say, 25% of rated output, and suddenly the
generator breaker were opened but the fuel wasn't reduced, then the turbine shaft and
generator rotor speed would increase very fast, and the unit would probably overspeed.
That's because the amount of fuel being burned to produce the force on the turbine
buckets is much more than is required to keep the generator rotor spinning at
synchronous speed.

Please have a look at the www.wikipedia.org definition of Torque, specifically the

section titled 'Relationship between torque, power and energy'. Note, that the physical
and mechanical engineering definitions of torque can be different.

When additional torque is applied through the load coupling between a turbine and a
generator, the coupling is "twisted" and the change in angular displacement can actually
be measured. Also, there is a change in the relationships of the magnetic fields in the
generator (the rotor field and the stator field(s)), an angular displacement.

So, there is angular displacement.

Reply to this post...

Posted by SSV on 5 April, 2010 - 1:07 am

Thanks for the prompt reply.

Best Regards
SSV
Reply to this post...
Posted by Bruce Durdle on 31 March, 2010 - 3:05 pm
My basic mechanics text says that torque =- Force x radius of action. And increasing
drive torque will increase the angular displacement by which the rotor field leads the
stator field - up to 90 degrees or so.

Bruce.
Reply to this post...

Posted by Jesus Santos on 12 August, 2008 - 2:36 am

What is rated to 120MW, the turbine or generator?
Reply to this post...

Posted by Phil Corso on 6 April, 2010 - 11:24 pm

Kumarash... All answers thus far presume your generator is connected to a Grid. Is that
the case?

Regards, Phil Corso

Reply to this post...

Posted by Maint on 18 April, 2010 - 9:58 am

need to clarify one thing with Generator mode Isochronous and Droop?
the Raise/lower speed after synchronizing which change with mode of turbine , that mean
FSR how control in Isoch/Droop ? which change actual in both mode ?
Reply to this post...

Posted by CSA on 18 April, 2010 - 11:03 pm

The Raise- and Lower Speed/Load switches change the Turbine Speed Reference (TNR)
regardless of whether or not the unit is operating in Isochronous or Droop Speed Control
modes.

When in Isochronous mode, changing the turbine speed reference will change the
frequency at which the unit is operating. Not the load, the frequency.

When in Droop mode, changing the turbine speed reference will change the power output
of the unit. Not the frequency, the load.

Isochronous mode is proportional plus integral control. Droop mode is proportional

control.

Other than this, I don't understand the question.

Reply to this post...

Posted by Greg N on 29 June, 2010 - 8:43 pm

I have the same question, but what if the generator is only rated for 100MW?

My question is: If the prime mover can produce 120MW of power, but the generator is
rated at 100MW, how will the generator react when if the prime mover is putting out
120MW of power?
Reply to this post...

Posted by CSA on 29 June, 2010 - 11:51 pm

If the generator rating is lower than that of the prime mover, then there should be some
kind of load limiting function to prevent the prime mover from putting out more torque
than the generator can convert into amps.

When current flows in a conductor, heat is generated. The ability of the generator stator
(and rotor) to be cooled to prevent damage to insulation and from expansion (things
usually expand when they get hot, and they get hot when current flows) is one of the
limits of generator operation.

If the prime mover is producing more torque than the generator can safely convert to
amps, then there will be too much heat in the generator and eventually something will
fail, usually the insulation.

There's also the coupling between the prime mover and the generator which must be
considered. There are limits to the amount of torque couplings can transmit, and the load
coupling, as it's called, must be capable of transmitting "rated" torque to the generator.
Usually the load coupling (and the generator) are rated slightly higher than the prime
mover.

But, if there are no other extenuating circumstances or mitigating factors which we are
unaware of, strictly speaking the prime mover output should somehow be limited from
producing more power than the generator is rated for in this question.

If the prime mover output is not limited and it exceeds the rating of the generator, the
generator will continue to produce power until it overheats and fails (presuming the load
coupling is capable of transmitting the high torque, also).
Reply to this post...