Understanding the Student Teacher Relationship, Part One

Elizabeth Mattis Namgyel Lerab Ling, 9 May 2009 20 minutes Today's topic is on guru devotion, and which is really a hard topic and a very, very challenging topic. Eh, and I really appreciate Sogyal Rinpoche for asking me to teach on this topic. [Elizabeth and the assembly laugh] Em, it's interesting how it works, you know. You don't necessarily ask for it, but the teacher gives you what you want, eh, what you need, let's say, [Elizabeth laughs] more accurately. Em, and I felt, eh, very appreciative, em, towards Sogyal Rinpoche for asking me. And I'm sure he didn't necessarily wanted to challenge me, em, he probably thought this would be a great topic for you, but it was a very challenging and inspiring topic, em, for me, and it helped me a lot just to think about it. Needless to say I think you're all extremely fortunate to have Sogyal Rinpoche as a teacher. Em, it's very much an understatement to say that Sogyal Rinpoche is very passionate about the Dharma [Elizabeth and the assembly laugh]. He is two hundred percent and, em, this temple and all of you being here is very much a testimony to the kind of teacher that he is. And I think back, em, on the first time that I met Rinpoche, and I was living at, eh, Kongtrul Rinpoche and I were living around, you know, the, eh, big Stupa of Bodhanath, and there is this, there is khorwa, you know, the place we do the circumambulation and there is this row of houses, you know, round circle of houses. So we lived in one of these houses, and, it was an old Newari [check] house. And so it's made of mud. And, eh, has these big arched windows but no glass, so is, there no separation between outside and inside basically. So very noisy around the Stupa. And so, Rinpoche was in Tibet at the time, and I did, I used to do my morning practice and then I have a couple of hours before I had to head off to the work, and I would just sit at that window and look out at the Stupa. And one morning, I looked out and there was a man, not a, a small man, with yellow robesguess who [the assembly laughs]and he was vigourously walking around [Elizabeth and the assembly laugh] the kind of upper part of the Stupa, and in back of him were about forty students [the assembly laughs] trying to keep up. [The assembly laughs] And, em, [Elizabeth laughs] you understand what I'm saying. [Elizabeth and the assembly laugh] You can see it, I'm sure. And, em, I just thought, you can see its kind of joy and enthusiasm and love for this place and the Dharma. And I thought: Who is this? [The assembly laughs] And of course, I later found out, and that's the first time I met Rinpoche in Nepal up in Nagi Gompa. Em, but that's the image I have, the first meeting and I, and I still, eh, when I think of Rinpoche, I think of that kind of passion and enthusiasm, I mean, it's just so contagious actually, obviously. [Elizabeth laughs] There's a lots of students here. Em, so I can say this a very, eh, challenging topic, a hard topic, and very personal, em. And I don't know about you, but when I think of my teacher, I feel a lot of appreciation and warmth, a little bit of sadness, em, love, some
Home Retreat TransmissionWeek 175 These are restricted transcriptsplease respect this and do not share the transcripts electronically or print them out for students.

Understanding the Student Teacher Relationship, Part One

loneliness, eh, sometimes some frustration, [Elizabeth chuckles] all at the same time. [Elizabeth chuckles] But if you were to ask me who or what my teacher is, I don't think I can tell you. It's like when I, when I try to pin down who he is, I completely lose him. So for me I think, eh, my teacher is very much an open question. And when I see him in this way, I experience him in a much fuller way, rather than trying to decide or come to a conclusion as to who he is. I see him in a much true way and it leads me to a true sense of practice actually. Em, you know as Rinpoche's first student, Kongtrul Rinpoche first student, and I fumbled around a lot because I was the only one, and I wasn't quite sure what I was doing. Em, and I've, I always am the one who has too many questions, and I'm a, I've often been the one who asked the questions that everyone else dares not ask, and because of that, em, sometimes I kick up, stirs things up a little bit to provoke. And, you know, I never mean to be indignant in any way, [Elizabeth laughs] but, eh, you know, I love Rinpoche and I love the teachings, but I'm not always so getting being good. But quite good at it maybe being honest, you know. Em, so Rinpoche often teases me, you know, when we are in a public situation and I have a, a big question, you know, that gets everything all, you know, chaotic, em, he always says: See, this is how she really is! [The assembly laughs] But now everybody knows, so. [Elizabeth laughs] But anyways I felt very challenged about my relation, with my relationship with Rinpoche. Em, you know, when we met he was twenty-one and I was twenty-three, so you know... When you're twenty-three, you know, first he's my teacher and my husband, you knowwhat does this mean?! [The assembly laughs] And then on top of that, when you're twenty-three you don't know what a husband is or what a, [Elizabeth laughs] you know, what a marriage is about or what it means to be a wife. And then on top of that, we're from very different cultures, two very, very different cultures. So, you know, I wanted to be a good wife, and I wanted to be a good student, you know, I was very eager too serve in the right way, um, but I didn't necessarily always know how. And then on top of that, you know, what do you do with all these moods, you know, Rinpoche's moods and, and you know, ways of communicating that are so different, you know, from your own? This is, you know, I had all these questions, and sometimes I got very frustrated and I interpreted my frustration as a lack of devotion. Um, and it's interesting talking about these challenges. I think these challenges are very important to talk about and very interesting. Um, you know, not a lot of people talk about the ch... these kinds of challenges with the teacherand I'm talking about more in the West. In the East it's very natural. I mean it's, it's a given, you know, people know how to relate to the teacher and it's not questioned much and it's a part of the culture. But, you know, obviously for us we have other, other challenges.

Home Retreat TransmissionWeek 175 These are restricted transcriptsplease respect this and do not share the transcripts electronically or print them out for students.

Understanding the Student Teacher Relationship, Part One

Um, you know, in, in the traditional texts we see things like, um, you know, ah, people jump off cliffs and stick little splinters of wood in their fingernails upon their teacher's request; you know, or, or like in, in the case of Milarepa and Marpa, you know, they, you know, build huge monuments and rip them down and build them up again and they rip them down, you know, because their teacher asked them to do that, and it seems, it's very impressive. [The assembly laughs] But, but, actually, ah, when our teacher asks us maybe in a very gentle way, you know, Maybe, um, let go of the ego just a little bit, [the assembly laughs] and then we have so much resistance, you know? And so, how do we reconcile, ah, what we learn in the texts with our own humanness actually, with our own, um, wants and not-wants and preferences? You know, what do we do with that? It's quite hard to let go of the ego when we have modern challengesyou know, we have trust issues and we're not used to, it's not part of our culture, um, to follow a teacher in this waybut I don't think that the fact that we have these difficulties means we lack devotion, I just, I think it means we have things to learn, and we have our own special, special challenges. So, you know, when I was thinking about what to say, um, here today, I thought, you know, I don't want to be some sort of 'poster girl' for the Dharma, [Elizabeth and the assembly laugh] you know. I think it, I think I'm quite interested in talking about, ah, these challenges, these basic human challenges that make us grow. And these struggles that we have, they should really be appreciated, you know? When I look at my challenges, the challenges that I've had, I really, really appreciate them. And I actually appreciate that I've been able to be honest; like I've, I've appreciated my own honesty with these difficulties, and I, I think that we can all appreciate, ah, ah, these, these challenges, and, and be very honest and open about it because it's, it's, it's like the opportunity part of the whole thing. So, um, that's, kind of, the spirit that [I] engaged this with. I, I was thinking back, you know, when I wasyou know, obviously there's still [struggles], I mean, there's still challengesbut when I was younger there were so many struggles around this, um, but I was very open, I think, too. Once I went to see, ah, His Holiness Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, ah, to ask him about this challenge I had with Rinpoche, you know, I wasn't quite sure what I was doing. And, um, so I asked Rinpoche to do a mo. And Rinpoche looked at me very sternly, and it's the one and only time he was very stern with me. So he did the divination and then he said: The mo is not firm. Which means, you know, it's inconclusive. And so it just left me in this, kind of...you know [Elizabeth laughs]. I never got my answer. So here I'm left with this open question again. [The assembly laughs] And, and throughout my whole, kind of, all these years with Rinpoche, I never actually got any advice. Sangyums never talk about these things, you know, amongst each other. Um, there's no, like, club or like website, [Elizabeth and the assembly laugh] you know, you can go to. Um, I got some advice from some teachers. Ah, Penor Rinpoche once said, you know, Never see your teacher as ordinary. What do you do with that?! [The assembly laughs] You
Home Retreat TransmissionWeek 175 These are restricted transcriptsplease respect this and do not share the transcripts electronically or print them out for students.

Understanding the Student Teacher Relationship, Part One

know, it's all very cryptic, kind of. You know, you, there's like, they, you hear things and people give you suggestions and very kindly, but it's very hard to understand. What does this mean, you know? So I didn't know. And obviously no one was going to tell me. So it just, what I decided is this is just my koan. This has become, became my koan. And it's still my koan but much, much, you know, more resolved. And it's just become like a tool of learning for me. So, you know, in some sense this is my koan, but it's all of your koan too. As a student this is a koan: what does it mean to have a teacher? Um, now in the Vajrayana, theythis is part of the koanin the Vajrayana they say: See the teacher as the perfect Buddha. But how do we see anything as perfect, when our mind is confused? That's kind of the q... the real question that gets at the kind of underbelly of the whole thing. So, you know, samsara, the definition of samsara is: That which doesn't satiate. You know, that, that which is not fixable, you know. Something that just never brings satisfaction, there's always a problem. So if we're looking at the teacher from this point of view, how do we see the teacher um, as perfect? You know, samsara is all this confusion, it's all about fantasy, you know, what we want, what we don't want, all of our preferences, you know, all of ego's preferences. So, um, we'll always be seeing things in a limited way, from this point of view. Ah, so, the fight for survival for the ego. You know, and meanwhile everything is all shifting and changing, never for a minute, you know, settling in, in one way. You know, so when I think about it it's like, all there is, is going to be disappointment from this point of view. It's like our relationships are c... always disappointing, our emotions are constantly, you know, we may feel blissy for a minute, but then, you know, it changes, you know. Apple pie and ice cream don't even satisfy us [the assembly laughs]. Even the French one, that apple pie, what is that? Oh, it's so good [the assembly laughs]. French apple pie, Tarte Tatin. Oh, it's so good, but even that [the assembly laughs] will not, you know, it will not get rid of the despair, you know, that we have. So, um, nothing pacifies, because it has to do with the way we see things; not the things themselves. Things themselves are just natural and changing, and however they are, but it's the way we perceive things, the way we perceive the teacher. So things let us down, and in the same way, if we perceive the teacher from this ordinary point of view, which mostly we do, then he's bound, we're bound to be disappointed. Um, and we'll never understand what it, what this idea of perfect buddha means. So, you know, we enter the spiritual path, we have all our idea...ideas of what we think a teacher should be. So, for example a father figure, or a, you know, super hero, you know. Somebody who's, you know, nothing, doesn't do anything wrong. And everything is, you know, to fit that image. Sometimes a monk, or a perfect buddha. And then, so we hold on t... we hold on to this idea that we have, um, and so then, you know, the teacher has a lot to live up to, in this way, you know, this fantasy. Um, we think maybe, we can, he can save us or ah, in also not just save us, we want him to save us in a way that makes us, that's comfortable for us. [The assembly laughs] So it's a lot to ask of a
Home Retreat TransmissionWeek 175 These are restricted transcriptsplease respect this and do not share the transcripts electronically or print them out for students.

Understanding the Student Teacher Relationship, Part One

person, and actually it's really an impossible demand to make of, anyone or anything. And I always imagine, you know, what this might be like from a teacher's point of view. You know, actually I've, I've seen this quite a bit, because you know I've seen Kongtrul Rinpoche, and I've watched his process, and we've always talked about this, it's been quite fascinating for me, um. You know, some people... They have this kind of tulku glamour kind of thing going where they wish they were recognized as a tulku and I always think, Oh, they don't know, you know, who would want this actually, you know? The only way that you would want to do this is if you had like Sogyal Rinpoche, so much passion you couldn't do anything else or, so much bodhichitta that you couldn't do anything else, you know. Otherwise from an ego point of view this would be a living hell, I think, to be in this position. So we're very, very fortunate that these teachers do have this motivation and this kind of vision, um. But so often, you know, students complain about the teacher, about how, Oh my teacher is so hard on me. Oh, it's so hard, you know. And I used to joke with Rinpoche, sometimes I thought I was going to... There was a period of time in these kind of Dharma magazines where students were complaining about teachers, there's a whole wave. I don't know if you remember? And, ah, I told, I kind of threatened that I was going to write one on teacher abuse. Remember, I used to tease Rinpoche but I think it would have inflamed things more if... So I didn't do it but it would have been kind of fun, you know, a little more stirring up, kind of. But so what I think I'm trying to say is you know when we think of the teacher as a perfect buddha in this ordinary way we just have a very limited um, kind of contrived ur, idea of what that is. Um it's like it's not an, experience perfect, you know what I mean, it's not an experience, it's a conceptual perfect, or an image of perfect. It's not an experience perfect, because it's not a perfect way of seeing things, um so what happens is when our teacher does something, that we don't understand, ur, we can't maintain this grand and static view and perfect starts to fall apart. And so then it's like Oh, he's kind of an ordinary guy, you know. Then we start to fake it a little, and we start to wonder though, you know, What happened to my devotion? What really happens is that we start to wonder about ourselves. You know, you, Where did my devotion go? You know, Why can't I be like, Mila andyou know Naropa, and why can't I be like the examples in the text? you know. Why can't I see the teacher as a perfect buddha? Which is a really big dilemma that comes from having a very very small, ur, view of who the teacher is. And essentially I think: this is the same dilemma we have with our own mind. Because on one hand we want to be a good practitioner, we want to be um good, you know, and that's very noble, but what do we do with all our humanness? You know, what do we do with all the dissatisfaction that arises? What do we do with our passion, aggression and ignorance, you know, what do we do with this, you know? How do we reconcile me with enlightenment?
Home Retreat TransmissionWeek 175 These are restricted transcriptsplease respect this and do not share the transcripts electronically or print them out for students.

Understanding the Student Teacher Relationship, Part One

You know, this is the, this is the question. Um, so I just want, I just want to clarify that, you know please understand that I'm not saying that the teacher is not extraordinary, but I just don't think we can see how the teacher is extraordinary through ordinary way of seeing things. I think that's what I'm getting at here.

Home Retreat TransmissionWeek 175 These are restricted transcriptsplease respect this and do not share the transcripts electronically or print them out for students.

Understanding the Student Teacher Relationship, Part Two

Elizabeth Mattis Namgyel Lerab Ling, 9 May 2009 13 minutes So um, in the, in the Vajrayana, you knowI'm sure you may,you, you've heard this beforeum, it talks a lot about the relationship between the teacher and student by using the analogy of hook and ring. Have you heard that, hook and ring? Um, and I think we can hear this and we can think, Oh great, if I just hang out with the teacher, he'll kind of like hook me like a fish and just pull me out you know, ur, of my suffering and my misery. Ur, but it doesn't work like that. [Elisabeth laughs] That would be easier. But ur, you know we can't really see the teacher as divine, like the teacher is up here and were down here and then something is magically can happen from that. You know, there is an interdependence involved, hook and ring means interdependence um. If we, if we see in that way, it doesn't challenge us to change you know, and we need to change. We can't attain enlightenment if we don't change. So you know I think of a, this Milarepa, in the life story of Milarepa a some, a student um praises himI'm sure you've all heard thisa student praises and venerates him and How great you are and how realized you are and how learned you are, and he goes on and on. And Milarepa kind of sings back a song, you know kind of gives him a pointed kind of little teaching there and saying, you know, You couldn't have insulted the Dharma more by saying that. You know, I was a sinful man. It's through you know the Dharma and integrating the Dharma that I become like this. Um, and there's a, there's a similar story about, ur, Trungpa Rinpoche that's interesting. You know someone was doing the same thing to Trungpa Rinpoche and saying, you know, Lord of lords, and all, you know. Something very grand. He says, We could never be how like you are. And then he turned to them and he said, and this is a quote, Fuck you! Really loud and I thought you know this is ah, a very profound teaching actually. [The assembly laughs] Because ur, you know, it's very safe to put the teacher on a pedestal and it's very safe you know to have a fantasy. Because again you don't have to self reflect, you don't have to change, you don't have to become, you don't give up your ego. You don't have to become the ring. Like the teacher is the hook. But you have to become, we have to become, not you, we, [Elizabeth chuckles] we have to become a ring, um, for the teacher to hook. If there is no ring there can't be a, anything to hook. So, ur, ur, Kongtrul Rinpoche once told me that he wanted to be a student, to be accepted by Khen Rinpoche, Khenpo Rinpoche as a, as a student, so he went to Khen Rinpoche and he asked you know, Rinpoche will you accept me? And Khen Rinpoche looked at him and said, you know, It's not really up to me. You know, it's up to you, ur, it's up to you. [The assembly laughs] It's up to you. You know, how you keep your commitments and your motivation
Home Retreat TransmissionWeek 175 These are restricted transcriptsplease respect this and do not share the transcripts electronically or print them out for students.

Understanding the Student Teacher Relationship, Part Two

and your passion or longing to, ur, give up your, your sense of self and your ego. I'm actually, I'm not sure, but it, it was a very interesting um, teaching, I thought. So you know, I don't think we could sail by just looking at the teacher as divine. I mean the teacher is divine, but not I think in the way we sometimes, ur, make him an icon of divine. I think the t...the teacher is divine, because the teacher has actually, understands what it means to be human. Like the, the teacher is fully human, um, ur, and so it's very important to see the value of the teacher in this way. Um, you know the teacher is someone who has gone beyond ordinary dualistic mind. They, they have the same challenges we have: birth old age sickness and death. You know, this is what is really miraculous. You know not doing something kind of magical um, that we can't understand. Um so we need to, to value what it is about the teacher actually ur, in order, so we know where to meet the teacher. You know, if if the teacher was someone divine and we're down, down here, what could such a teacher do for us? You know if the teacher doesn't understand our humanness or understand what were up against as human beings. So um, what, what could we learn. How, how would he help us um, face these basic human challenges? So you know, if we look at the life story of the buddha, you know we see, what did he do? You know, his whole life was about asking questions about the human condition, right? Like ur, you know, how do we, how do you live in a world where everything dies? How do you find meaning when you're up against, you know, old age sickness and death? You know, how do you live in samsara that, which is, which is by nature unfixable, you know? How do you reconcile me and enlightenment for example? These where actually... The buddha had his own koans. You know, these were the buddhas koans and these are our koans too. So in a sense when we look at these great teachers, we're just actually looking towards people, who are grappling, who have grappled with these very important personal, you know, not too divine for us, kind of questions. Um, and the Buddha was really really relentless in the way he asked these questions, you know. He didn't let up for a minute. And um, he's very passionate, and he didn't ever turn away from the kind of the fullness of this experience, of the human experience. He didn't turn away from suffering, um, he included suffering as part of his, you know, his exploration and his koan. Um, and had a very deep deep ah, passion to see what this was about. And I'm always, I'm always ah, I always love the part of the Buddha's life where, life story where, you know, he, he's in the palace and he's getting ready to leave, and this thick, you know, fog descends and everybody gets sleepy and falls asleep. But he's like the awake one, because he has this kind of passion to see the truth of things. You know, he wants to understand suffering. He wants to understand liberation from suffering, so he has this deep interest, and I think it's like this kind of passion, and this deep interest in this thing that kept him awake. That is like an example of what it means to be
Home Retreat TransmissionWeek 175 These are restricted transcriptsplease respect this and do not share the transcripts electronically or print them out for students.

Understanding the Student Teacher Relationship, Part Two

a ring, you know, that's what you need to be a ring. So, the Buddha really exemplifies in his, his story, he's teaching us... He didn't even have a hook, you know, a teacher. But, maybe in some ways he did, I'm not sure how that one worked, but he, he became enlightenment, enlightened but he understood how to be a, like a disciple really, like a ring. So, you know, here we all are, you are all here um, doing retreat, and you know, it's really admirable because, it's like, it's following in the Buddha's footsteps, and it's, it takes that kind of bravery, you know, ah, not to turn away from ah, you know these questions. You know, these, these are our questions, you know, and not to turn away from this incredible vibrancy of wakefulness, which, which is what we do, we turn away from, from the kind of the natural vitality of the mind, and the natural ah, richness of our mind, ordinarily, you know, we, we objectify things, and we try to find security and we, ah, try to ah, you know we fall asleep in that fog, you know. So to stay awake is, is to be awake to the vibrancy of experience. And um, when I think about it, you know, when I think about my teacher, um, all my teachers really, um, you know I, but I... especially with Kongtrul Rinpoche, because I've seen, I see, I've seen so much of his human side, you know, but that, but that's actually ends up to be what touched me. You know, I thought, Oh husband and then teacher is, is kind of a problem, but actually that it's his humanness that ended up ah, really touching me. Because sometimes we see humanness as a weakness, or a fault, but with Rinpoche it was like he had so much passion to engage, and understand that, ah. And it was... I started to understand that the point of waking up is to be fully human, you know, natural and ordinary, and that's what I saw my teacher doing, always this passion to understand this kind of natural way of being. Not other than human, but like fully human. So, we can't really see this, you know, when we have fantasies, like, we can't see this in the teacher, and we can't ah, see it in ourself. We can 't see our full humanness, if we have fantasies about how we should be. So, the important point is, you know, really to be able to bear witness, to the full thing, you know, the suffering and the joy, and the all, all of our humanness, you know, in ourselves, and, and to appreciate how the teacher has done that. And it's interesting 'cause, if you think of the Buddha's teachings, you know, what was the Buddha saying? The first noble truth, you know, behold suffering, basically. You know, there we, suffering isn't a truth, but we need to be able to behold suffering. And not just suffering, we need to be able to behold beauty, we need to be able to behold all of our experience. So, I think, you know, this points to a very um, different way of being. And you know, if you look at all the great luminaries of the past and present, you know, all the great practitioners, they have this kind of, you know, glimmer of ah, you know, although they're, they're free at heart, and they're full of mirth, they have this kind of glimmer of sadness in their eyes, because I think, they're not trying to live around their life, you know, they include suffering, they include everything into their experience, you know. All the teachers
Home Retreat TransmissionWeek 175 These are restricted transcriptsplease respect this and do not share the transcripts electronically or print them out for students.

Understanding the Student Teacher Relationship, Part Two

have this, there's this like beauty and, and, but there's like this kind of glimmer too of sadness. like the Dzogchen teachings for example, you know it says, you know don't suppress, you know, it's not about getting rid of experience, and it's not about exaggerating, or, or thinking of it as real, but it's like, being natural and having a full experience, and [Elizabeth clears her voice], being able to let things be, and experience, like, What are things before we start messing with them? You know. This is what it means, you know, to have a full experience, a naked experience. So, um, you know when we start to understand this the teacher koan, becomes a little bit more clear. Um, and the teachings, teachings and experience come together. Um, so I guess whatah just to conclude this little sectionyou know, what I'm saying is, we can, we can understand how to appreciate the teacher not being super-human, but being fully human.

Home Retreat TransmissionWeek 175 These are restricted transcriptsplease respect this and do not share the transcripts electronically or print them out for students.