Pierre Boulez in Interview (2): On Elliott Carter, 'A Composer Who Spurs Me on' Author(s): Philippe Albra and

Pierre Boulez Source: Tempo, New Series, No. 217 (Jul., 2001), pp. 2-6 Published by: Cambridge University Press Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/946866 . Accessed: 09/03/2014 20:45
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Philippe Albera Pierre Boulez in Interview (2): on Elliott Carter, 'a composer who spurs me on'
and the Clarinet Concerto. Boulez, interviewed (In Tempo 216 Pierre by Simon Penthode talked about his own recent music. The PA: You Mawhinney, from thefirst timeyou say you werestruck, conducted in French, in ParisinJune heardthe FirstStringQuartet,by the rhythmic interview, present aspect 2000 was published under the title '... un Compositeur of Carter's writing... it appears a avancer...'; herein Englishfor PB:Yes, I was immediatelyfascinated by his rhythqui m'oblige mic writing. I think the principle of rhythmic thefirsttime,translated by Sue Rose.) modulation is particularlyinteresting. The shifts PHILLIPE ALBERA: When did youfirst get to know in rhythmic values are perfectly clear where they music? occur in the writing; the rhythmic relationships Carter's PIERRE BOULEZ: It was at a Domaine Musical reach their fullest expression, as it were, when concert in the early 1950s. I didn't know Carter they can be heard. In some cases, however, you at that time: the Parrenin Quartet suggested we have to rely on the metronomic relationships. include his FirstStringQuartetin the programme. You realize this when conducting, because if I then met him briefly at the SIMC Festival in you're not in control of what you hear, the Baden-Baden where Le Marteau sans Maitrewas rhythmic modulations are executed more given its first performance. His Cello Sonata, a loosely. This idea is found in a simpler form in work. More often than not, he used work still clearly influenced by the neoclassical Stravinsky's style, was performed there. Much later, around relationships of 3 to 2 or 4 to 3, as in the WindInstruments, a work which is the mid-1960s, I heard the Double Concerto for Symphoniesfor Piano and Harpsichord and I got to know him entirely based on rhythmic relationshipsof 2, 3, and 4. much better then. modnotionof metric PA:Carter's writingwas basedon completely different PA: Do you thinkthat Carter's it wasjust ulationstemsdirectlyfrom to thoseof serialwriting, Stravinsky? although principles it at the time? PB: Probably. From Stravinskyand Nancarrow. as innovative: how did you regard In actual fact, it was Carter who introduced me PB: I was very interested in it! The First Quartet had intrigued me in the early 1950s because the to the latterat the time of the Double Concerto. style of writing was completely different from His music made a great impression on me! But ours, particularlythe rhythmic writing, which is the relationshipsin his work are always precise extremely complex. I remember being even because they are executed mechanically,although more struck by his use of rhythm than by his you have to identify the units to detect them. was very diferent treatment of intervals.When I studied his scores PA: Yourconcept of note durations in the 1950s. Did your discovery in depth and got to know him better, which was to Carter's of the to cause alter modulation metric in the 1960s - and we had already come a long principles your you of way from Darmstadt- I was very interested in approach? exploring his concept of form, with those lay- PB: Yes, Carter's music gave me a great deal of ered structuresthat resemble charactersin a play. food for thought, particularly after I began I then asked him to explain several of his works conducting his works. My approachat that time to me, such as the Concerto for Orchestra, for was, in fact, a point-based one, from which I example, a work which I subsequently played was trying to distance myself since I was well on numerous occasions, especially on tour. I aware of its limitations; as a result, in my Third then commissioned the Symphony of Three Piano Sonata, I introduced the idea of blocks of Orchestrasfor the New York Philharmonic time. This is because, in a strictly point-based Orchestra. Since then, I've always taken a keen style of writing, there are, by force of circuminterest in his work and we have included stances, statisticallymany more long values than almost all his pieces for smaller forces in the short values, so that the pulse does not rely on a Ensemble InterContemporain's programme, primordialequality between the differentvalues. including two works that we commissioned: This is also why, at the time, I decomposed the

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PierreBoulez in Interview who spursme on' (II): on Elliott Carter,'a composer chords:to ensure that the tempo was determined by the act of decomposing the chords rather than by a single value. Another point of interest in Carter'smusic was the principleof the writtenout accelerandi and ritardandi which are often found in his music and which are extremely effective. One might say that these are primarily gestures;but, in Carter'swork, they form part of the structurealong with various intricatelyoverlaid values. PA: Youraised thequestion at a veryearly of harmony whichinitially didn't stagewithintheserialmovement, to it. How didyou regard Carter's pay muchattention he systemin this domain,a systemwhichfurthermore formalizedquiteearly? PB: He explained his system of intervals to me when we were working together. His principle entailed focusing on certain dominant intervals which resulted in a comparativesimplificationof the harmonic structure. I found this interesting, but it didn't have a great impact on me because I have another way of working, even though I too base my writing on harmonic concepts. To my mind, a chord or an initial interval can generate many things, either when it proliferates or when it becomes distorted. In my experience, the myriad possible combinations must always already exist within the cell, so to speak. I personally work from proliferatingor symmetrical chords organized around an axis; in my view, what is important is the parallel reproduction, the symmetrical reproduction or the defective reproduction in the actual structure of the harmonic writing. To these, you could also add unrecognizable reproduction, where the same elements are placed in a completely different order, in inverted registers:you can just about hear it's the same combination, but you cannot say why. So there are several stages:total identification, partial identification which changes progressively and variation which alters the position of the elements and where it is as much as you can do to recognize the density. Detection, in these circumstances, comes too early or too late: if one knows there will be fifths and seconds, it is too early and if one says to oneself: 'Yes, that's right, there were fifths and seconds all over the place', realization has occurred after the event, too late. My concept of harmonic structure is therefore very different from Carter'sidea. PA: Did you discuss all thesecompositional issuesand with him? concepts PB: Yes, we discussed a great many things! But when I think back now, I would say that ultimately what appealed to me most about his work were his ideas about form: the principle of

continuity, in which forms are superposed, cancel each other out, reappear,begin anew... This is an extremely complex idea, so complex in some cases that it becomes difficult to follow, as for example in the Third String Quartet. That work reveals a speculative approach that makes it possible to view the form in a completely fresh light, eschewing the usual conventions or received wisdom. I didn't accept all Carter's ideas unquestioningly, of course, but they made a great impression on me and this is particularly evident in my more recent works. PA: Whatdo you thinkof Carter's orchestral writing? PB: His orchestral writing is well thought-out and perfectly executed but I wouldn't say it's the most innovative aspect of his work: I don't think his use of timbre is as inventive as his use of rhythm or form. By this, I mean that there are no unusual sounds, no sounds that strike the ear because they've never been heard before. The orchestrais certainly not used in a conventional manner, but the instruments are used for their traditional qualities:majesticbrass,eloquent wind, etc. Carter doesn't make use of trompe-l'oeil, perspective or the relationship between a real object and a virtual object, which can be found at a fairly simple level in the later work of or again in Debussy, or in Stravinsky'sFirebird, works by Strauss, who was a great illusionist when it came to orchestral writing. Carter's writing is more akin, in this respect, to the type of orchestralwriting produced by composers in the Viennese School. Carter's work presents a direct transcriptionof the musical idea. PA:This is the distinctionRavel made between 'instrumentation' and 'orchestration'... PB: Absolutely. And Ravel was also a great illusionist. In Carter's work, the discourse is more important than the instrumentsused. This is also evident in his piano writing, which is unmoved by the idea of virtuosity, as Liszt saw it. However, I personally am very fond of this aspect: when composing for the piano, I'm naturallydisposed towards virtuosity, which can generatesoundsthathave neverbeen heardbefore. PA:In yourview, does Carter's musicfallwithin the traditionof the American ultra-modernism of the the musicof Ruggles? 1920s, particularly And, more generally, what is its position in Americanmusic today? PB: With regard to the American music scene, you might say it is very isolated, particularly now. This is actually why I'd compare him to Ruggles, although obviously he has written much more than him. Ruggles also came up with some non-tonal solutions, but he lacked a systematic approach which probably prevented

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PierreBoulez in Interview who spursme on' (II): on Elliott Carter, 'a composer

Elliott Carter and Pierre Boulez areseen together in New Yorkin 1977, duringrehearsals for Carter's'A Symphony of ThreeOrchestras'

him from writing a great deal, because you need a systematic approach if you are to develop your ideas. I think, on the other hand, that Carter's music is very different from that of Ives, who tacklestrite ideas and eccentric subjectsin a fairly loose form. What I find interesting about Carter's work, in comparison with someone like Messiaen, who belongs to the same generation, is that he took a long time to find his own voice. Messiaen was himself right from the start: his early works, despite Franck's clear influence, used a modal language that was alreadyhis own: it is completely unmistakable. Then his work underwent a fairly sudden change, at the time of the Etudes de Rythme and Chronochromie: he headed off in a different direction. In his final period, you get the feeling that he wanted to salvage some of the earlier elements. Carter, on the other hand, began almost anonymously. I read through his ballet Pocahontas once and if I had not alreadyknown it was by Carter, I would never have guessed he was the composer: it is more like Copland than Carter now! So he has gradually progressed towards a completely personal style of music, revealing a steady development that has become increasingly marked with the passing years. Because he did a lot of researchat one time and because he spent a great

deal of time exploring ideas, he composed at a relatively slow pace. And then, suddenly, the music started to flood out, as though someone had opened the sluice gates. There are also various historicalreasonsfor this slow process of maturation. When I organized a mini-festival in New York to celebrate the centenary of Ives's birth, I took a closer look at musical life in the United States in the 1920s and I realised that those years were marked by a great deal of avant-garde activity. Varese was one of the key figures. There were some extremely interesting composers around, such as Ruth Crawford Seeger, for example. However, after the economic crisis of 1929, there was nothing, which was also reflected in the world of art: at the time, people were urging artiststo produce large mural paintings, as in Mexico. This could be seen in dance with Martha Graham and in music with the populist trend. And the fascinating thing is that this corresponded in every respect to Russian populism under Stalin. The parallelbetween American populism, linked to the collapse of the capitalist system (which was to be reinstated)and socialistrealism, linked to the crisis in the Communist system in the hands of a dictator, is actually very striking: it happened at exactly the same time. In all likelihood, Carter's need to extricate himself

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who spursme on' PierreBoulez in Interview (II): on Elliott Carter,'a composer

from such a background accounts for his slow other. His formal structureis based on intervals, on tempo, on categories that don't form part of development. aboutCarter's PA: There is something isolation, the German tradition. He developed his style in symbolic to thepositionof deliberate ignorance of the German tradition or in America,with regard particularly the modern composer:was this unavoidable,the as a rejection of it, not only with all its faultsbut the demanding also with all its qualities. resultof the hiatusbetween inevitable PA: Yourmusicusuallycontains consciousness? and thepopularmusical gesturesthat immecomposer Carter'smusic on the PB: Yes, at the outset. But, in Carter's case, the diately reveal the structures; with associated problem may also be caused by the fact that he contraryis linked to characteristics and instruments... is not an 'appealing'composer: he doesn't try to intervals, rhythms win anyone over. This is why it is sometimes PB: The idea of dramatizing the instrumental hard to convince those who have reservations discourse,the concept of instrumentalcharacters, about him. To my mind, this is due to his can already be found in baroque music. For notion of sound. Some of his pieces, such as example, in Bach's sixth Brandenburg Concerto, you for example, are rather austere, which have various different and variable instrumental Penthode, can put people off. In terms of sound, one of his groups, with dialogues between the groups and most appealing works is A Mirroron Which to differentcombinations.Carterhas, fundamentally, Dwell. Personally, I like austerity but I'm very the same approach to groups as certain baroque interested in the phenomenon of sound and I composers.In his work, the groupsare established have nothing against charm. The way in which once and for all and there are exchanges, as in a the sounds are presented can create a feeling of game of draughts, when you take one piece pleasure that improves our ability to make out with another. This also points to a difference of the form, for example. This createsa sense of bal- approach between us. I would actually find it ance which can bring in other musical elements very difficultto begin a composition with a prethat are harderto grasp;in other words, the phe- determined group, except in chamber music, of course. When confronted by an orchestra, I can nomenon of sound can be all-inclusive. orchestra see an infinite number of possible combinations PA: Have you everhad difficulty convincing in and I don't like focusing on one over another. directors to performCarter'sworks, particularly PA: Doesn't this conceptual America? stem, in Carter's difference based on expansive melodic PB: Ah, but if I'm sure about something, I don't case, from a styleof writing care what anyone thinks: I do it anyway! I know lines? how difficultI myself have found these works and PB: Yes, but you can clothe a long melodic line I'm in direct contact with them, so I don't take in a variety of different sounds! Take the 'Recitative' from Schoenberg'sPiecesforOrchestra offence at difficultiesexperiencedby others... standsoutsidethe opus 16, or Erwartung, for example. Obviously, PA: One has thefeelingthat Carter traditional comparison between Schoenbergand this creates problems with regard to weight and Stravinskyand, by extension, betweena state of balance which are difficult to solve in a practical anda typeof musical objectivity, manner. Carter adopted this principle in heightened subjectivity it... as Adornoonceexpressed Penthode,at least partially. For my part, I find PB: Quite simply I believe that Carter has little Schoenberg's orchestra around the period of it is highly differentiated in common with the Germantradition.He trained Erwartung very appealing: in Europe under Nadia Boulanger, in other and, at the same time, very dangerous, because words under Stravinsky'stutelage, without any there is a huge divide between the instrumentalists contact at all with the German tradition. He who are playing the same chord both without totally rejected Wagnerism and Romanticism, as being able to preparein advance, since the condid composers like Stravinskyor Milhaud. Even figurations change constantly, and without now, it isn't easy to persuade him to go and being able to make corrections after the event. listen to a Mahler symphony! He doesn't like There are moments of conflict between these music like that. He regards it as a completely continual transformations and moments of alien mode of expression. greater stability, such as the interlude at the end he has developed a feelfor of the first scene of Erwartung. PA: But, paradoxically, This dramatic which within the French between order and effect, chaos, which large-scaleforms doesn'tfall suspended tradition... Schoenberg could have developed even further, PB: Yes, but he doesn't structure these forms in was used by Carter as a formal organizational the same way: his works have no Durchfuhrung, element. In his Concerto for Orchestra, for in the strictsense of the word; there areno themes example, there are 'chaotic' moments harmoniopposing, complementing or distorting each cally speaking that are extremely difficult to

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PierreBoulez in Intewiew(II): on Elliott Carter,'a composer who spursme on'

PB: Yes, absolutely,and that is probablythe reason

master because no one combination is more important or more compelling than another. This means there are no longer any poles. I think his most recent works demonstrate a wonderful resolution of this dialectic between order and chaos. PA: Wouldit befeasible to say thatCarter is more akin to you than mostcomposers by dint of his challenging and craftsmanship? language

I've performed his work so often: his music doesn't do anything for effect, he has no need for distractions. He is a composer who makes me think about the present, about fundamental issues; he spurs me on and makes me question what I'm doing. In this respect, I'd even go so far as to say that he's one of the few composers I find interesting!
(This interview forms the preface to the symposium Elliott Carter,ou le tempsfertile edited by Max Noubel - the firstvolume in French devoted to Carter and his music - recently published by Editions Contrechamps, and has been translated for Tempoby kind permission.)

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