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NATI ONAL GUARD BUREAU
AI R GUARD HI STORY
TAPE TRANSCRI PTI ON
DECLASSIFIED UNDER AUTHORITY OF THE
INTERAGENCY SECURITY CLASSIFICATION APPEALS PANEL,
E.O. 13526, SECTION 5.3(b)(3)
ISCAP APPEAL NO. 2012-042, document no. 2
DECLASSIFICATION DATE: September 29, 2014
x - - - - - - - - - - - X
I NTERVI EW OF
LARRY K. ARNOLD
X - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X
19 November 2001
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DR. GROSS: 11m Dr . Char l es J . Gr oss, t he Ai r Nat i onal Guar d
Hi st or i an i n t he Nat i onal Guar d Bur eau. Todayl s dat e i s 19
November 2001. 11m at Tyndal l Ai r For ce Base, Fl or i da, at 1st
Ai r For ce headquar t er s t o i nt er vi ew Maj or Gener al Lar r y K.
Ar nol d, t he Commander of 1st Ai r For ce concer ni ng t he t er r or i st
at t acks on t he Uni t ed St at es on 11 Sept ember 2001 and t he
r esponse of 1st Ai r For ce and ot her Ai r Def ense asset s t o t hose
event s.
* * * * *
DR. GROSS: Si r , f or t he sake of t he hi st or i cal r ecor d,
coul d you i dent i f y your sel f ?
MG ARNOLD: Lar r y Ar nol d, Commander , 1st Ai r For ce,
Cont i nent al Uni t ed St at es NORAD Regi on ( CONR) .
DR. GROSS: Okay, ver y good.
MG ARNOLD: Maj or Gener al , Ai r Nat i onal Guar d, Uni t ed
St at es Ai r For ce.
DR. GROSS: Par t of t hat i s somet i mes over l ooked by t he
publ i c.
Coul d you l ayout t he f or ce st r uct ur e r ul es of
engagement s, maj or or gani zat i onal el ement s and r esponsi bi l i t i es
of your command pr i or t o 11 Sept ember 20017
MG ARNOLD: Okay. Pr i or t o 11 Sept ember 2001, we wer e
t he -- we had r eal l y t hr ee r esponsi bi l i t i es. By t he way, t o some
degr ee t hose have not si gni f i cant l y changed. NORAD i s di vi ded up
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i nt o t hr ee r egi ons: t he Al askan r egi on, t he Canadi an r egi on, and
t he Uni t ed St at es or t he cont i nent al Uni t ed St at es NORAD r egi on.
I was t he Commander of t he cont i nent al Uni t ed St at es
NORAD r egi on r esponsi bl e f or ai r sover ei gnt y or I shoul d say
Aer ospace War ni ng and Aer ospace Cont r ol of t he Cont i nent al Uni t ed
St at es NORAD r egi on.
Addi t i onal l y, as Commander of 1st Ai r For ce, I was
r esponsi bl e f or or gani zi ng, t r ai ni ng and equi ppi ng our f or ces
t hat wer e suppor t i ng CI NCs wor l dwi de. For exampl e, Nor t her n
Wat ch, Sout her n Wat ch, t hat sor t of t hi ng.
A t er t i ar y r ol e t hat I had was wor ki ng f or J oi nt For ces
Command as t he Commander of Ai r For ce For ces f or J oi nt Task For ce
Ci vi l Suppor t whi ch had t o do wi t h consequence management af t er a
CBRNE event , as we cal l af t er weapon of mass dest r uct i on,
Chemi cal Bi ol ogi cal Radi ol ogi cal Nucl ear or Hi gh Expl osi ve,
CBRNE, C-B-R-N-E, sor t of event .
The command-and-cont r ol f or ce i n t he NORAD busi ness had
t o do wi t h peacet i me ROE [ i . e. , r ul es of engagement ] . Those ROE
ar e pr et t y st andar d t hr oughout t he Ai r For ce. Do you want t hi s
cl assi f i ed or uncl assi f i ed?
DR. GROSS: Cl assi f i ed i f you t hi nk t hat ' s wher e t he
i nf or mat i on i s and we' l l handl e i t t hat way.
MG ARNOLD: Al l r i ght . ROE mat t er s ar e nor mal l y
sensi t i ve i f not cl assi f i ed; but , basi cal l y, under peacet i me ROE,
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CI NC NORAD nor mal l y has t he r esponsi bi l i t y f or decl ar i ng a t ar get
host i l el
I E.O. 13526, section 1.4(a) I
DR. GROSS: Mm-hmm. Can you t al k a l i t t l e bi t about
your f or ce st r uct ur e?
MG ARNOLD: For ce st r uct ur e. Our r egi on was di vi ded
i nt o t hr ee command-and-cont r ol sect or s. The Sout heast Ai r
Def ense Sect or , at Tyndal l Ai r For ce Base [ Fl or i da] ; Nor t heast
Ai r Def ense Sect or at Rome, New Yor k; and t he West er n Ai r Def ense
Sect or at McChor d Ai r For ce Bas. e i n t he st at e of Washi ngt on,
r esponsi bl e f or pr ovi di ng command-and-cont r ol t o t hose
geogr aphi cal ar eas.
And what I ' m t al ki ng about i s t hey r un t he r adar s and
scr ambl e ai r cr af t . They have scr ambl e aut hor i t y over ai r cr af t
assi gned t o t hei r sect or ar ea. And, of cour se, we had 10 Ai r
Nat i onal Guar d [ f i ght er ] uni t s t hat wer e assi gned t o 1st Ai r
For ce, seven of whi ch wer e pul l i ng ai r sover ei gnt y al er t pr i or t o
11 Sept ember 2001, seven l ocat i ons ar ound t he count r y wher e t hey
. .
wer e pul l i ng al er t , st ar t i ng up i n t he nor t heast woul d be Ot i s
Ai r Nat i onal Guar d Base i n Massachuset t s, pul l ed by t he 102nd,
Fi ght er Wi ng. At Langl ey Ai r For ce Base, Vi r gi ni a, pul l ed by t he
119t h Fi ght er Wi ng. At Homest ead Ai r For ce or Ai r For ce Reser ve
Base Iguess now, i n Fl or i da, pul l ed by t he 125t h Fi ght er Wi ng.
At El l i ngt on Ai r Nat i onal Guar d Base i n Texas pul l ed by our
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El l i ngt on uni t whi ch i s 147
t h
Out at Ol d Mar ch Ai r For ce Base
now cal l ed Ri ver si de, Ri ver si de, Cal i f or ni a, pul l ed by t he Fr esno
Ai r Nat i onal Guar d uni t 144t h Fi ght er Wi ng. And, pul l ed al er t at
Por t l and by t he 142nd Fi ght er Wi ng.
Now, I l ef t of f Tyndal l . Tyndal l Ai r For ce Base, we
had t he 148t h out of Dul ut h, t he 148t h Fi ght er Wi ng out of Dul ut h
pul l i ng al er t her e.
DR. GROSS: What was t he r equi r ement f or t he al er t i n
t er ms of how soon t hey had t o scr ambl e and who coul d do i t and
t hat sor t of t hi ng?
MG ARNOLD: Over t he year s, t hat ' s changed t o some
degr ee, but t he al er t ai r cr af t obvi ousl y t he r esponse post ur e
i mmedi at e has come t o be def i ned as soon as possi bl e, but not
l at er t han I ---J
Now, year s ago, we used t o cal l i t 1 _
Wi t h t he advent of t he i ner t i al navi gat i on syst ems, i t t ook a
l i t t l e l onger t hanl ' -- . . . J l t o get ai r bor ne j ust f or t he
i ner t i al NAVs t o come up, even t hough t hat ' s not a pr obl em t oday
because of our updat ed I NS syst ems t hat we have.
I t has somet i mes t aken up t o 1~ l because peopl e
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DR. GROSS: And i n your opi ni on, how good of a cover age 0
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wear exposur e sui t s and we di d not ever want t hat t o be an i ssue
dur i ng peacet i me. So we wer e al l owed up t o _ _ _ _ _ _ 1 t o be abl e
t o r espond t o a scr ambl e pr i or t o t he 11t h.
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f r om an ai r sover ei gnt y st andpoi nt --
MG ARNOLD: We di dn' t have ai r sover ei gnt y, we had
t oken ai r sover ei gnt y. Seven si t es ar ound t he count r y was
i nadequat e t o be abl e t o r espond. We had numer ous event s wher e
no f i ght er s i n a sui t abl e l ocat i on woul d be t he end r esul t . And
t hat basi cal l y meant t her e was no way t o get t her e, f r om her e t o
t her e.
You know, t he nor t heast , f r om Ot i s al l t he way down t o
Langl ey, i t seems l i ke a l ong di st ance. I f you wer e goi ng af t er
-- i f you wer e i n t he l at t er days of t he Col d War when t he
Russi ans had been f l yi ng t hei r Bear s down t o Cuba and you wer e
r espondi ng j ust t o t hose ki nds of event s, t he east coast was
r
okay. I t wasn' t gr eat , but i t was okay. You pr obabl y coul d have
r esponded t o t hose event s. I f you had some t anker s, it woul d
have hel ped.
But t o say t hat we had ai r sover ei gnt y wher e we coul d
get ai r bor ne and go out and t ouch an unknown ai r cr af t . wi t hi n a
r easonabl e per i od of t i me -- I woul d def i ne r easonabl e per i od of
t i me, wi t hi n a hal f hour , al t hough t hat ' s not sat i sf act or y.
Ther e was no way t hat we coul d do t hat i n ver y many pl aces i n t he
count r y unl ess t he unknown happened t o be cr opped up.
The most di f f i cul t pl aces wer e i n t he sout heast er n par t
of t he Uni t ed St at es wher e you have 70 per cent of t he unknown
ai r cr af t appear i ng.
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IE.O. 13526, section 1.4(a)(g) I
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E.O. 13526, section 1.4(a)(g)
So. t o say t hat we had ai r sover ei gnt y was a myt h. We
had t oken ai r sover ei gnt y at best and I ' m not t he onl y per son t o
say t hat . GEN. [ Ri char d B. ] Myer s when he was Commander of NORAD
[ 14 August 1998 t o 22 Febr uar y 2000] sai d t hat as wel l .
DR. GROSS: I assume t 6i s was poi nt ad but t o peopl e i n
t he Pent agon. What was t he r esponse t o al l t hat ?
MG ARNOLD: Wel l , I t hi nk t he t hought pat t er n was t hat
we wer e i n deep peace and t he onl y count r y t hat had t he
capabi l i t y of at t acki ng t he Uni t ed St at es count r y, nat i on, st at e,
wi t h ai r cr af t was Russi a and t hat t he Col d War was supposed t o be
over and so, t her ef or e, we di dn' t have t o wor r y about i t ; pl us
t hei r mi l i t ar y was -- had been dr i ven down.
Our concer n, of cour se, had been f or some t i me about a
t er r or i st at t ack on t he Uni t ed St at es usi ng asymmet r i cal
met hodol ogi es such as a cr ui se mi ssi l e or an unmanned ai r cr af t of
some t ype whi ch can f l y sl owl y but l ong di st ances and car r y smal l
payl oads t hat mi ght be abl e t o do si gni f i cant damage, or t he
scenar i o I pai nt ed t o you f r om an ai r pl ane cr ossi ng over f r om
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Mexi co or f r om some ot her i sl and.
So I t hi nk i t was a mat t er of pr i or i t i es and t he
Pent agon and i n some cases, t he amount of money saved was smal l .
My opi ni on i s t hat havi ng wor ked on t he Ai r For ce Boar d t hat
of t en at t hat l evel wher e -- t hese ki nds of deci si ons ar e
pr i nci pal l y suppor t ed and sol d. Most of t he t i me at t hat l evel ,
t he abi l i t y t o af f ect t he budget i s ni bbl i ng on t he f r i nges. And
I woul d consi der t he r educt i on of t he t ot al number of asset s t o
have pr oper ai r sover ei gnt y was cl assi f i ed as ni bbl i ng on t he
f r i nges.
DR. GROSS: Mm-hmm. But , t hat l ef t you basi cal l y
wi t hout t he capabi l i t y t o accompl i sh t he mi ssi on?
MG ARNOLD: I f your mi ssi on was t o pr ovi de ai r
sover ei gnt y f or t he cont i nent al Uni t ed St at es, i t l ef t us wi t hout
t he capabi l i t y t o do t hat .
Now, on t he good si de, t he good si de i s t hat t he
command-and-cont r ol st r uct ur e, t he i nf r ast r uct ur e, t he r adar s,
t he COM t o be abl e t o pr ot ect agai nst a t ar get comi ng f r om
out si de t he Uni t ed St at es r emai ned i n pl ace. Not t hat t hey wer e
r obust . The r adar i s i nadequat e, desi gned f or FAA, not desi gned
t o l ook down, desi gned t o l ook up. They' r e gr eat at 30, 000 f eet .
They wer e nonexi st ent bel ow I l al Ong t he east coast / west
coast . I t doesn' t mat t er wher e. They j ust wer en1t desi gned t o
e
~ do t hat par t i cul ar j ob.
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So we had ser i ous concer ns about cr ui se mi ssi l es and
had i ni t i at ed an advanced concept t echnol ogy demonst r at i on, whi ch
had been appr oved f or cr ui se mi ssi l e def ense. And basi cal l y
devel oped a por t abl e J oi nt Expedi t i onar y Base Command-and-Cont r ol
Cent er t hat we coul d pl ace i nt o a si t uat i on, i nt o an ar ea, a
geogr aphi cal ar ea based on an event t hat we want ed t o pr ot ect .
And t hen our concept of oper at i ons woul d be t o l i nk
avai l abl e mi l i t ar y asset s t hat mi ght be cal l ed upon t o def end
t hat ar ea.
We' ve never been asked t o do t hat , but we had a pl an t o
be abl e t o do t hat .
DR. GROSS: Okay. Okay. Wel l , I want t o cl ar i f y one
poi nt . You' r e t al ki ng about bei ng abl e t o pr ovi de ai r
sover ei gnt y. I n t hat , as we t al ked ear l i er t oday, t hat was i n
t he cont ext of st uf f comi ng i nt o t he Uni t ed St at es f r om out si de
t he cont i nent al Uni t ed St at es. I don' t bel i eve t hat anybody ever
r eal l y was l ooki ng at what happened on t he 11t h of Sept ember f r om
somet hi ng.
MG ARNOLD: No, I don' t t hi nk so. I don' t t hi nk peopl e
-- you know, we t hought t her e was a possi bi l i t y of peopl e per haps
hi j acki ng ai r pl anes and hol di ng peopl e host age or put t i ng a bomb
on t hem or bl owi ng t hem up. I don' t t hi nk we t hought of usi ng a
f uel ai r bomb, bei ng an Amer i can ai r l i ner , of t aki ng of f i n t he
Uni t ed St at es and t hen goi ng i n and cr ashi ng i nt o t he Wor l d Tr ade
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Cent er .
I t hi nk we' d become -- I hat e t o use t he wor d,
" compl acent , " but cer t ai n i t ' s appl i cabl e i n r et r ospect . I t hi nk
we bel i eved t hat t he poi nt of depar t ur e secur i t y t hat we had i n
our ai r l i ne t er mi nal s was suf f i ci ent t o st op t hat . So we never
i magi ned somet hi ng l i ke t hat anyway. But we di d wor r y about
ai r pl anes t hat mi ght t ake of f i nsi de t he Uni t ed St at es t hat woul d
per f or m some host i l e act wi t hi n t he Uni t ed St at es. Our t hought
t o t hat was t hat was a l aw enf or cement i ssue.
You know, when you t hi nk of t he Uni t ed St at es mi l i t ar y,
our obj ect i ve i s t o pr ot ect t he Uni t ed St at es agai nst , nor mal l y,
agai nst f or ei gn enemi es. But , you know, when you t ake t he Pl edge
of Al l egi ance or your Oat h of Of f i ce, i t ' s f or ei gn and domest i c,
you know.
DR. GROSS: Al l .
MG ARNOLD: Al l . Al l enemi es of t he Uni t ed St at es.
DR. GROSS: Yes.
MG ARNOLD: However , we or gani ze -- we or gani ze our l aw
enf or cement i ssues and our i nt el l i gence col l ect i on, i t ' s agai nst
t he l aw f or t he Uni t ed St at es mi l i t ar y t o col l ect i nt el l i gence
i nt er nal l y wi t hi n t he Uni t ed St at es, except under emer gency
condi t i ons.
That ' s why we have t he FBI . They ar e al l owed f or l aw
enf or cement pur poses wi t h ver y st r i ct cont r ol s t o guar ant ee your
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const i t ut i onal r i ght s and mi ne; but t hey ar e al l owed t o col l ect
i nf or mat i on when t hey have pr obabl e cause and wi t h adequat e cour t
or der s, t hey' r e al l owed t o col l ect i nf or mat i on.
The CI A, whi ch i s r eal l y par t of t he Depar t ment of
Def ense i n my mi nd, cer t ai nl y par t of t he def ense i nf r ast r uct ur e,
col l ect s i nf or mat i on out si de of t he Uni t ed St at es. And t hen, of
cour se, we i n t he mi l i t ar y unl ess t her e has been a st at e of
emer gency decl ar ed ar e onl y al l owed t o f i ght out si de of our
bor der s, not i nsi de.
DR. GROSS: Okay. We' ve pr et t y much cover ed most of
t he st uf f i n i t em 2. I ' d l i ke you t o ski p ahead t o quest i on
number 3 i f t hat ' s al l r i ght .
MG ARNOLD: I n t he 1996 -- okay. Had t her e been a
ser i ous ef f or t t o r educe or even el i mi nat e al t oget her 1st Ai r
For ce as a dedi cat ed Ai r Def ense or gani zat i on pr i or t o 11
Sept ember 01, of cour se.
DR. GROSS: That woul d be t heone, yeah.
MG ARNOLD: And t her e had been. I t had gone back, as
we had dr awn down t he mi l i t ar y -- l et me go back a l i t t l e bi t i n
hi st or y even f ur t her back. I ' l l go back t o 1978.
DR. ' GROSS: Okay.
MG ARNOLD: When t hey shut down Ai r Def ense Command
I may be wr ong a year on t hat . I t mi ght have been ' 77. But
r eal l y we shut down Ai r Def ense Command and when Ai r Def ense
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Command was shut down, we di dn' t now how t o do t he ai r
sover ei gnt y mi ssi on even t hen. So some peopl e had made deci si ons
about what t o get r i d of , but a l ot of peopl e di d not t hi nk about
t he f ol l ow-on st r uct ur e t hat was r-equi r ed .
So we cr eat ed t hi s t hi ng cal l ed ADTAC and r eal l y t he
commander of ADTAC was cal l ed t he Deput y Commander of Tact i cal
Ai r Command f or Ai r Def ense. That ' s what ADTAC r eal l y st ood f o~.
DR. GROSS: Okay.
MG ARNOLD: Deput y Commander of Tact i cal Ai r Command
f or Ai r Def ense. Wel l , a deput y commander doesn' t do anyt hi ng and
I r emember t al ki ng t o t he commander at t he t i me had been t he
been out t her e and I ' m t r yi ng t o . t hi nk of hi s name-- i t wi l l come
t o me her e i n a mi nut e -- of what was t he i ssue.
And he t ol d me i n a conver sat i on I had wi t h hi m a f ew
year s ago t hat he t ol d t he Commander of Tact i cal Ai r Command t hi s
di d not make any sense and t hat t he st af f at Tact i cal Ai r Command
i n t hose days want ed not hi ng t o do wi t h any command or gani zat i on
bei ng r esponsi bl e f or t he ai r def ense of . t he Uni t ed St at es.
Wel l , event ual l y, t he power s t hat be r ose hi gher i n t he
power i n t he Ai r For ce and deci ded t hat i f you' r e goi ng t o have
t o do t hi s mi ssi on, t hen you have t o cr eat e a command
or gani zat i on. They cr eat ed 1st Ai r For ce. So, 1st Ai r For ce was
cr eat ed, ul t i mat el y moved t o Tyndal l , not necessar i l y f or al l t he
r i ght r easons, but moved t o Tyndal l anyway.
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And as we ended t he Col d War , but st i l l doi ng t he ai r
sover ei gnt y mi ssi on, st i l l r esponsi bl e f or what ever came f r om
wi t hout , t her e began t o be pr essur e t o cut t he budget even
f ur t her .
And I t al ked about i t bef or e: ni bbl i ng down.
So dur i ng t he QDR [ i . e. , Quadr enni al Def ense Revi ew]
t hat was essent i al l y t he 1996 QDR, but i t r eal l y wasnl t r el eased
unt i l about , you know, l at e i n ' 96, [ t hat t he] QDR got r el eased.
The QDR r educed t he ai r def ense por t i on of t hi s mi ssi on even
f ur t her and suggest ed t hat t her e onl y be f our dedi cat ed ai r
def ense f l yi ng uni t s and t hat any ot her r equi r ement s woul d be
suppl i ed by J oi nt For ces Command.
The good news i s t hat t he commander of NORAD at t he
t i me, GEN. Howel l Est es [ 27 August 1996 t o 13 August 1998] , woul d
not buy t hat and he f ought t o mai nt ai n seven al er t si t es at
l east .
Al so what was not vi si bl e i n t he QDR, but was behi nd
t he scenes was t hat i n t he budget ar ena t he Uni t ed St at es Ai r
For ce had t aken ever y ef f or t t o shut down 1st Ai r For ce al ong
wi t h, I mi ght add, 8t h Ai r For ce, and 13t h Ai r For ce because t hey
t hought t hat t hei r j obs had gone away. I can go i nt o a gr eat
deal of di scussi on about each of t hese, but 1111 st ay wi t h 1st
Ai r For ce.
So f r om 1997 essent i al l y unt i l t he end of 197 and
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per haps even unt i l cl ose t o t he end of ' 98 t her e st i l l had been a
l ot of di scussi on about shut t i ng down t hese number ed Ai r For ces.
The bot t om l i ne was i n t he Ai r For ce t hey deci ded t hat
t hey coul dn' t do away wi t h t hei r number ed Ai r For ces. They st i l l
had a j ob t o do f or t hem; but , even at t he l ast mi nut e, what used
t o be Tact i cal Ai r Command i s now, of cour se, Ai r Combat Command,
t he st af f went t o GEN. [ Ri char d E. ] Hawl ey, by t hi s t i me,
Commander of ACC [ i . e. , Ai r Cbmbat Command] and sai d, " What i s
your posi t i on on shut t i ng down 1st Ai r For ce?"
He sai d, " I don' t have a posi t i on. I s t her e a bet t er
way t o do t he mi ssi on?"
And, of cour se, t hat was news t o t hese f ol ks because
t hei r bel i ef was t hat t he r eason you wer e shut t i ng down 1st Ai r
For ce was because t her e was no mi ssi on.
They went back, t hey l ooked and t hey st udi ed. They
came back and f i nal l y, t he f i nal answer t o GEN Hawl ey was, " No,
we haven' t f ound a bet t er way t o do t he mi ssi on. "
The quest i on t hat t hey shoul d have been asked bef or e
t hey ever asked t he quest i on: I s t her e a bet t er way t o do t he
mi ssi on?
Or t hey shoul d have asked t hemsel ves and shoul d have
got t en a sat i sf act or y answer : I s t he mi ssi on no l onger a mi ssi on
of t he Uni t ed St at es Ai r For ce?
DR. GROSS: Wel l , bef or e we go on t o t he event s of t he
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11 Sept ember , I t hi nk i t mi ght be a good t i me t o t al k about t he
RAM Team t hat you commi ssi oned sever al year s ago t o exami ne t hi s
quest i on of t he mi ssi on and wher e i t f i t i n t he f ut ur e of t he Ai r
For ce and t he Ai r Guar d.
MG ARNOLD: Yeah. Wel l , I ' d had a l ong conver sat i on
wi t h [ Col onel ] Dan Navi n ( Ret . ) [ Speci al Assi st ant t o MG Ar nol d] ,
r eal l y, f or a coupl e of year s about we needed a t eam t o go out
and do some anal ysi s. I t hought t hat t eam shoul d have been
sponsor ed by Ai r Combat Command. Ai r Combat Command. Or by t he
Nat i onal Guar d Bur eau. Someone. Because we had so l i t t l e
suppor t at t he Nat i onal Guar d Bur eau al one, we wer e -- we wer e
j ust somet hi ng t hat was event ual l y goi ng t o go away and nobody
gave us much suppor t .
So I knew t hat t he new QDR was comi ng up. I t was
supposed t o be r el eased and has been r el eased, obvi ousl y, i n t he
Year 2001. And so my goal was t o do a st udy t o l ook at t he
mi ssi on as we t al ked about bef or e. I s t her e a mi ssi on?
And number I, i f t her e i s no mi ssi on, t hen we ought t o
di vest our sel ves of t he r esour ces and f i gur e out a bet t er way t o
use t hese r esour ces doi ng anot her mi ssi on t hat we have.
I f t her e was a mi ssi on, whi ch I suspect ed t her e st i l l
was -- I mean t her e was a mi ssi on -- t hen we needed t o have - I
asked t he quest i on: . I s t her e a bet t er mor e ef f i ci ent not
necessar i l y mor e ef f i ci ent , but ef f i ci ent i s one par t of i t , but
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i s t her e a mor e ef f ect i ve way t o do t hi s mi ssi on and save
r esour ces and st i l l be abl e t o do t he mi ssi on?
So a st udy composed of most l y Guar d peopl e,
unf or t unat el y, but we i ncl uded act i ve dut y peopl e f r om Tact i cal
Ai r Command or ACC, Ai r Combat Command, and f r om NORAD i n t hat
st udy and t her e wer e act ual l y peopl e f r om t he Rand Cor por at i on i n-
t her e as wel l as Nat i onal Guar d Bur eau and 1st Ai r For ce
headquar t er s.
I chose Maj or Gener al Paul Pockmar a t o r un t hat st udy
because Paul , even t hough he was a Guar d gener al of f i cer , had
never been par t of Ai r Def ense Command and I want ed someone t o
head up t hi s st udy t hat was not l abel ed as a 1st Ai r For ce t ype
of f i cer .
And, of cour se, t he r esul t s of t hat wer e, t her e i s --
t her e i s st i l l a mi ssi on. Al l t he f our st ar s sai d so. And no
one t hought t hat we wer e goi ng t o st op doi ng aer ospace war ni ng
and aer ospace cont r ol agai nst ai r br eat hi ng t hr eat s t o Nor t h
Amer i ca.
And t hey al so di d an exhaust i ve st udy of anot her way,
doct r i nal l y sound way, of beddi ng t hi s mi ssi on down f r om a
headquar t er s per spect i ve i n anot her number ed ai r f or ce.
And t he answer si mpl y was t he ot her number ed ai r f or ces
wer e f ul l y engaged and had pl ent y t o do.
DR. GROSS: How di d peopl e i n t he Pent agon and
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t hr oughout t he Ai r For ce r espond t o your f i nal concl usi ons of
t hose st udi es?
MG ARNOLD: I t hought i t was usef ul . You know, I ' m not
sur e how much vi si bi l i t y i t had, but i t had enough vi si bi l i t y
t hat it t ur ned t he t i de, f i r st of al l , i n t he Guar d Bur eau.
DR. GROSS: Okay.
MG ARNOLD: I f ound t hat f r om a per sonal i t y poi nt of
vi ew t hat [ MAJ . ] GEN. Weaver , Paul Weave [ ANG Di r ect or ] , who had
never been a f oe, cer t ai nl y, but he began t o r eal ~ze because of
t he st udy and because of t he debr i ef i ng t hat we wer e goi ng t o be
ar ound f or a whi l e.
I t hi nk [ LT. ] GEN. [ Russ] Davi s [ Chi ef , Nat i onal Guar d
Bur eau] had deci ded at one t i me t hat we woul d not be ar ound f or a
l ong t i me and had expr essed t o me concer n over t he pot ent i al --
we wer e t al ki ng at t hat t i me about conver t i ng t he Al askan 611t h
Ai r Def ense Ai r Def ense Squadr on i nt o t he Ai r Nat i onal Guar d and
he was opposed t o t hat because he t hought t hat t he ai r def ense
mi ssi on was a sunset mi ssi on. But as a r esul t of t he Rol es and
Mi ssi on St udy, he concl uded t hat i t was not a sunset mi ssi on. I t
may not be a bi g mi ssi on, but i t was st i l l goi ng t o be t her e;
and, t her ef or e, t hen act i vel y suppor t ed t he conver si on of t he
611t h t o t he Ai r Nat i onal Guar d whi ch i s i n pr ogr ess as you know.
DR. GROSS: Okay. Wel l , so much f or t he pr el i mi nar i es.
Coul d you t al k about t he event s of 11 Sept ember and how you
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r eact ed and what act i ons wer e t aken her e? And whom t o do what .
I know i t l s a l ong st or y.
MG ARNOLD: I t i s a l ong st or y. On t he 11t h, we had
been engaged i n a NORAD Vi gi l ant Guar di an Exer ci se. I t was
basi cal l y a SEMEX, a command post t ype exer ci se. Then wel d been
oper at i ng -- had been i n f or about , agai n, f or f our days.
I was on t he mor ni ng of 11 of Sept ember I was up i n our
vi deo t el econf er enci ng f aci l i t y, j ust had a VTC wi t h t he NORAD
st af f . The CI NC, I donl t bel i eve was act ual l y pr esent dur i ng
t hat br i ef i ng, but hi s seni or st af f was.
And, as we wal ked out t he door , I got a -- somebody had
come upst ai r s and t hey gr abbed me and sai d, " We got a r eal wor l d
hi j acki ng goi ng on. "
And so I r an downst ai r s t o our bat t l e cab and up t o t he
upper dai s t her e, got on t he phone wi t h Col onel , [ Bob] Mar r , whol s'
t he Nor t heast er n Def ense Sect or [ Commander ] and he. t ol d me,
HBost on i s -- we donl t know wher e t he ai r pl ane i s, but Bost on i s,
has a f l i ght , Uni t ed Ai r l i ne f l i ght t hat t hey bel i eve has been
hi j acked.
H
And he sai d, HI ' ve got t he f i ght er s on cockpi t al er t . "
DR. GROSS: Mm-hmm.
MG ARNOLD: Now, l et me expl ai n t hi s. The pr ocedur e
f or us r espondi ng t o a hi j ack i s f or t he FAA [ i . e. , Feder al
Avi at i on Admi ni st r at i on] t o go t o t he Depar t ment of Def ense and
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r equest assi st ance. I t ' s consi der ed a l aw enf or cement i ssue.
DR. GROSS: Mm-hmm.
MG ARNOLD: They t hen, t he Depar t ment of Def ense, i f
t hey agr ee t o t ake t hi s on ar e t hen supposed t o go t o CI NC NORAD.
He t hen comes down us and di r ect s us t o l aunch ai r pl anes i n
suppor t of t he hi j acked ai r pl ane.
DR. GROSS: Okay.
MG ARNOLD: You can i magi ne how l ong t hat mi ght t ake.
DR. GROSS: Qui t e a bi t , yeah.
MG ARNOLD: But i n r eal i t y, as soon as I got i n t her e,
Bob Mar r , he says, " I t hi nk, " he says, " I t hi nk we need t o
scr ambl e t he ai r pl anes. II
I . sai d, " Go ahead and scr ambl e t hem and we' l l hol d t hem
out i n 105 unt i l we get t he necessar y cl ear ance. II
I ' m on t he phone i n t he meant i me, si mul t aneousl y
t al ki ng t o t he NJ 3, Gener al Ri ck Fi nl ey, who i s br and spanki ng
new, up at NORAD. He' s a Canadi an of f i cer and he sai d,
" Absol ut el y, we' l l go ahead and suppor t i t . "
By t hem I ' m l ooki ng -- as I -- as we' r e t al ki ng about
scr ambl i ng t he ai r pl anes whi ch was at 8: 46, t he news f l ash
suddenl y came up on t el evi si on and we saw t hi s smoki ng hol e i n
t he si de of t he Nor t h Tower of t he Wor l d Tr ade Cent er and t he
t hought t hat went t hr ough my mi nd was, " I wonder i f t hi s coul d be
a hi j acked ai r pl ane. II I al most di smi ssed i t because I knew t hat
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t he hi j ack was out of Bost on.
DR. GROSS: Okay.
MG ARNOLD: And we di dn' t know wher e t he ai r pl ane was.
We j ust knew t hat we wer e bei ng r equest ed f or assi st ance. But
i n t he meant i me, t hi s occur r ed.
Shor t l y af t er t hat , t hat par t i cul ar col l i si on wi t h t hat
Uni t ed Ai r l i ne f l i ght t hat col l i ded i nt o t he Wor l d Tr ade Cent er
was conf i r med as a hi j acked ai r pl ane. But I don' t bel i eve at
t hat t i me t hat t hat wor d had got t en t o me. I t had j ust been
conf i r med; but we di d not r ecei ve t hat i nf or mat i on. And i n t he
f og and f r i ct i on of war as you know t her e, t he next t hi ng t hat I
saw was t hi s ot her ai r pl ane f l yi ng i nt o t he Sout h Tower as many
of us saw.
And by t hen, you know, t hi s was -- you begi n t o r eal i ze
t hat one coul d be an acci dent : some ai r pl ane has f l own i nt o t he
Tower . Two? Thi s l ooks l i ke some sor t of concer t ed ef f or t .
Ar e you get t i ng r eady t o t ur n t hat t hi ng over ? What
ar e you t hi nki ng about doi ng?
DR. GROSS: I can t ake a l ook.
( Of f t he r ecor d. )
DR. GROSS: We' r e f i ne.
MG ARNOLD: Al l r i ght . By now we begi n t o get ot her
cal l s. By t he way, t he second ai r pl ane, t he Amer i can Ai r l i nes 70
-- no, 11, yeah. Amer i can Ai r l i ne 11 I bel i eve i t was.
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DR. GROSS: Okay.
MG ARNOLD: Had cr ashed i nt o t he Sout h Tower . By now,
we ar e get t i ng cal l s about a Uni t ed Ai r l i ne t hat had t aken of f
out of Newar k and was now wonder i ng ar ound up i n Ohi o ar ea t her e
and we had a cal l t hat t hat was a possi bl e hi j acki ng.
And so we wat ched -- we wer e t r yi ng t o f i gur e out wher e
he' s goi ng. At one t i me, we t hought t hat ai r pl ane was goi ng t o
Cl evel and. He went by Cl evel and. We t hought maybe he was goi ng
t o Chi cago. We t r i ed t o get ai r pl anes ai r bor ne out of Tol edo.
We t hought -- at one t i me we got a cal l f or a Del t a
f l i ght . And t hat Del t a f l i ght was t hought t o be a possi bl e
hi j acki ng;
We l ooked at t he ai r bor ne ai r pl anes we had up i n
Mi chi gan t o see i f t hey coul d be any hel p t o us. Nobody was i n
posi t i on. The Del t a Ai r l i nes [ f l i ght ] event ual l y l anded. The
Uni t ed 93 st ar t ed headi ng sout h. We scr ambl ed we, t al ki ng t he
nor t heast [ ai r def ense sect or ] , t al ki ng t o Bob Mar r , we scr ambl ed
t hr ee ai r pl anes out of t he Langl ey det achment of t he 119t h and
headed t hem t o Washi ngt on, D. C. t o put t hem over head i n case t hat
Uni t ed 93 was comi ng.
I n t he meant i me, as we wer e goi ng t hr ough t hi s pr ocess
o~ get t i ng t hese guys ai r bor ne, we get a cal l of a possi bl e
hi j acki ng of Amer i can Ai r l i ner 77, t he one t hat hi t t he Pent agon.
Had no cl ue wher e i t was. Di dn' t see i t . No poi nt out on t hi s
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23
t hi ng.
And t hen we get a phone cal l t hat i t ' s headed t owar ds
Washi ngt on, D. C. We di dn' t know whet her i t was headed t owar ds
Washi ngt on, D. C. , f r om t he nor t h, t he sout h, di dn' t know.
And, i n f act , I wasn' t so sur e t hat one of t hose
ear l i er cal l ed hi j acki ngs mi ght have been headed down t owar ds
Washi ngt on, D. C. , and some ot her ai r pl anes had r un i nt o t he, i nt O
t he Wor l d Tr ade Cent er .
But we t hen wat ched t he smoke go up i n Washi ngt on,
D. C. , we di dn' t know wher e i t was at t he t i me. As our ai r pl anes
ar e get t i ng ai r bor ne, t hey come up Washi ngt on, D. C. We' r e
wat chi ng t hi s Uni t ed -- by now we know i t i s t he Pent agon. We' r e
wat chi ng t hi s ai r pl ane and we' r e t hi nki ng, " We' r e goi ng t o have
t o out and shoot t hi s ai r pl ane down. "
I n my mi nd, i t wasn' t even a quest . i on of ROE. I t was a
quest i on of we had had host i l e act s and, t her ef or e, we had a
cl ear ance t o f i r e.
Now, t heor et i cal l y, It hi nk t hat i s t r ue under . our
exi st i ng ROE. I t woul dn' t be t r ue t oday, but I don' t bel i eve
t hat Ineeded t he Pr esi dent t o t el l me t o do t hat . As i t t ur ns
out , t hat ai r pl ane, you know t he passenger s we bel i eve r ushed
f or war d on t hat ai r pl ane. That ai r pl ane cr ashed up I n
Pennsyl vani a and we di d not have t o or der t hat ai r pl ane t o be
shot down.
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As i t t ur ns out , t he Vi ce Pr esi dent had decl ar ed, gi ven
CI NC NORAD t he aut hor i t y t o shoot down ai r l i ner s t hat had shown
host i l e i nt ent i n t he Uni t ed St at es about t hr ee mi nut es af t er t he
Uni t ed 93 cr ashed. So t he l ast ai r pl ane cr ashed bef or e we got
cl ear ance.
I n t he meant i me -- I di dn' t know i t at t he t i me, but
t he Whi t e House Secr et Ser vi ce had cal l ed up Andr ews [ Ai r For ce
Base, Mar yl and t o t he 113
th
Wi ng, Di st r i ct of Col umbi a Ai r
Nat i onal Guar d] and Andr ews had got t en [ F-16) ai r pl anes ai r bor ne
out of Andr ews and t hey t o f l y under neat h our CAP whi ch was over
Washi ngt on, D. C. We wer e up ar ound 20, 000 f eet ; t hey wer e f l yi ng
down r eal l y l ow and t al ki ng di r ect l y t o Washi ngt on Appr oach
Cont r ol whi ch mi ght have been a bet t er t hi ng t o do because t he
r adar s t hat wer e bei ng used by t he FAA wer e much bet t er t han t he
r adar s we wer e usi ng. Our r adar s ar e l ong-r ange r adar s as I sai d
bef or e. They wer e t al ki ng t o Appr oach Cont r ol and pr obabl y had a
bet t er pi ct ur e of what i s goi ng on.
DR. GROSS: Mm-hmm.
MG ARNOLD: .I n t he meant i me, t he Vi ce Pr esi dent had.
decl ar ed Washi ngt on [ DC) a f r ee f i r e zone, any ai r pl ane t hat was
ent er i ng t he Washi ngt on, D. C. ar ea was t ol d t o t ur n ar ound or be
shot down or l and i mmedi at el y.
And, by t he way, i n t he mi ddl e of al l t hi s f og of war ,
. we ended up wi t h 21 unknown or 21 pot ent i al hi j acked ai r pl anes.
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Ther e wer e no mor e, but we wer e wor ki ng al l of t hem at t hat t i me.
We knew t hat t he Pr esi dent was down i n Fl or i da. We
asked i f we we di dn' t know what he . was goi ng t o do.
Event ual l y, we asked t he quest i on i f he t akes of f do we need t o
.escor t ?
We wer e t ol d no. But t hen t he ai r pl ane t ook of f and we
)
got i mmedi at e wor d t hat t he Secr et Ser vi ce had asked us t o
escor t .
DR. GROSS: Gees.
MG ARNOLD: And we wer e i n posi t i on anyway. At t hat
t i me, we had f i ght er s ai r bor ne al l over -- we wer e st ar t i ng t o
get mul t i pl e f i ght er s al l over t he count r y t o become ai r bor ne.
We di ver t ed an AWACS ai r cr af t t hat was on a t r ai ni ng
f l i ght . We had di ver t ed t hem ear l i er over t o wher e t he Pr esi dent
was, down t her e i n t he Sar asot a ar ea of Fl or i da. And so t he
AWACS was comi ng acr oss Fl or i da f r om t he east coast . He t hought
he was on some ki nd of an exer ci se, not a r eal wor l d t hi ng. And
we event ual l y escor t ed t he Pr esi dent al l t he way over t o
Bar ksdal e Air For ce Base.
We di dn' t know wher e he was goi ng, t hey woul dn' t say.
We l anded t he. f i ght er s at Bar ksdal e Ai r For ce Base. We had ot her
f i ght er s pr epar ed t o cover . AWACS r emai ned on or bi t . We had
t anker s. We wer e di ver t i ng t anker s, scr ambl i ng t anker s i n or der
t o cover t hi s.
NCT0070457
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The Pr esi dent subsequent l y t ook of f agai n, you know,
about an hour l at er I bel i eve and pr oceeded t o Of f ut t Ai r For ce
Base and we, agai n, we di d not know wher e he was goi ng, but our
f i ght er s t 09k of f wi t h hi m, escor t ed hi m up t o Of f ut t , had AWACS
over head as wel l . And t hen af t er -- ' when he was at Of f ut t , he
was t al ki ng t o t he Secr et ar y of Def ense. I r el at ed t hat t o you
t hi s mor ni ng.
I t hi nk t he l ast unknown we had was a US Ai r ways f l i ght
t hat had t aken of f out of Madr i d, Spai n, and was headed t o New
Yor k and had been r epor t ed as a possi bl e hi j acki ng.
And t he Nor t heast Ai r Def ense Sect or , wor ki ng t hr ough
t he FAA had cal l ed US Ai r ' s headquar t er s and t hey sai d, " No. We
j ust t al ked t o t he pi l ot s and t hey' r e back on t he gr ound at
Madr i d. They t ur ned ar ound. Not hi j acked. "
And t hat was . t he end of t he bi g r un/ f l ur r y of possi bl e
hi j acki ngst hat we wer e supposed t o have at t hat t i me. The
Pr esi dent t hen got back i n hi s ai r pl ane and pr oceeded back t o
D. C. But even doi ng t hat , we wer e escor t i ng f r om t he r ear . We
,
had been t ol d t o st ay back. We wer e back 5 t o 10 mi l es j ust
wat chi ng. And I t hi nk t he Secr et Ser vi ce st i l l not knowi ng t hat
we wer e t her e, f og and f r i ct i on of war , t ol d t he Di st r i ct of
Col umbi a [ ANG] t o i nt er cept t he Pr esi dent comi ng back i nt o
Washi ngt on.
And t hey di d. They came up and j oi ned r i ght up on t he
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wi ngs of t he ai r pl ane. Ther e was a l ot of pi ct ur es t aken at t hat
par t i cul ar t i me.
DR. GROSS: Yes.
MG ARNOLD: But we di dn' t or der t hem f r om NORAD t o do
t hat . That was j ust Secr et Ser vi ce t r yi ng t o do t hei r own t hi ng
out t her e and t he Pr esi dent came back and l anded i n Washi ngt on,
D. C.
I n t he meant i me, we wer e -- we sat down wi t h a map. I
j ust dr ew circles ar ound about 15 maj or met r opol i t an ar eas.
DR. GROSS: Nobody was t el l i ng you t o do t hi s at t hi s
t i me?
MG ARNOLD: No.
DR. GROSS: You j ust sai d, " Hey, do t hi s. "
MG ARNOLD: " Let ' s do t hi s. "
And we st ar t ed f l owi ng ai r cr af t . We st ar t ed get t i ng
communi cat i ons wi t h al l t hese f i ght er uni t s. Some wer e 1st Ai r
For ce uni t s. Many -- most wer e not . And we st ar t ed put t i ng
peopl e on al er t st at us and as t hey woul d l oad t hei r ai r pl anes and
st ar t ed l aunchi ng t hem i nt o t hese or bi t s up i nt o t o cover t he
popul at i on cent er s.
We di scover ed t hat t he Navy had pushed shi ps but t o sea
on t he east coast event ual l y, wi t hi n t he next 12-13 hour s,
unbel i evabl e r esponse t i me. [U.S.S.] Geor ge Washi ngt on was of f
t he coast up by New Yor k. [U.5.5.] J FK [ J ohn F. Kennedy] was
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al so on t he east coast . We wor ked wi t h ADM Dawson out of 2nd
Fl eet and he r eadi l y under st ood doct r i ne. I t ' s a good t hi ng we' d
been st udyi ng doct r i ne. CI NC NORAD had al r eady been decl ar ed t he
suppor t ed CI NCo He r ol l ed t hose f or ces r i ght under neat h us.
We r ol l ed t he Geor ge Washi ngt on under t he Nor t heast Ai r
Def ense Sect or . We r ol l ed t he J FK under t he Sout heast Ai n
Def ense Sect or and t hei r Aegi s Cr ui ser s al so wer e al ong wi t h t hem
and we r ol l ed t hem r i ght under t he same t hi ng. And t hat r eal l y
was wor ki ng out f r om our per spect i ve pr et t y wel l at t hat t i me.
J oe, I ' mgoi ng t o have t o st op and get wi t h you agai n.
DR. GROSS: Okay. Gr eat , t hank you ver y much.
( The i nt er vi ew was adj our ned. )
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