ABC Radio Interview Will Your Fire Alarm Save You?

Adrian Butler: Good morning Madonna. Madonna King: What kind of alarms do most people have in their homes? Adrian Butler: Well theyre nearly all ionisation alarms. Madonna King: And whats wrong with ionisation alarms? Adrian Butler: Well the fire brigades official position is that they may not operate in time to alert you early enough to escape a smouldering fire. www.theWFSF.org/afac Madonna King: If fire authorities have that view, why do they allow us to have ionisation alarms? Adrian Butler: Its a political. Politically nobody wants to admit that the alarms in everyones home arent effective Madonna King: Because of potential legal action retrospectively? Adrian Butler: Well we, see we may know there was a problem. When they didnt know there was a problem, no. But when you know theres a problem and you dont tell the public, yes. Madonna King: So you believe fire authorities agree with you? Adrian Butler: Well they have agreed with us in writing, 4 years ago. But they havent told the public. Now they say they have, but the reason that none of your listeners or ninety-nine percent of them dont know this, is because they havent. Madonna King: How would we know by looking at our alarm whether it was an ionisation alarm or not? Adrian Butler: It has a radiation warning symbol on it. Madonna King: And whats the safest fire alarm to have in a home? Adrian Butler: The only one to have is a photoelectric. Ionisation alarms are dangerously defective. In America, theyve, theyve called them deadly. It must become law because the problem is Madonna, is that when you go home tonight youll, or tomorrow morning, youll burn the toast, the alarm goes off, and then you forget about it and youll think theyre fine. But tragically they will not activate in a smouldering fire. They will not operate in time. Madonna King: So is it a matter of detection times or the way they detect smoke in different ways? Adrian Butler: Well ionisation smoke alarms technically dont detect smoke because they only detect sub micron particles and theyre emitted when you burn the toast on the red-hot heating element. But in a smouldering fire those invisible particles arent generated and the smoke alarm in most cases wont activate until the fires burst into flames, which is often too late. Madonna King: So why arent photoelectric alarms used more frequently? Adrian Butler: Well you know the amazing thing is, in commercial buildings, you have to have them by law. In all paths of egress and all sleeping areas. And that begs the question, given that its been law in commercial buildings in Australia since April 2004, why has the law been blocked, to pass legislation for our homes?

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AS1670.1 April 2004, mandates photoelectric detection in all bedrooms and all exit paths, in all new commercial buildings to which the standard applies. Madonna King: Is it a matter of state legislation or federal legislation? Adrian Butler: Federal Madonna King: Is, is it a cost issue? Adrian Butler: No. Well I mean yes they are more expensive. You can buy them for fifteen or twenty dollars. And then once people understand that the ionisation alarms are not effective. It isnt a cost issue. I mean no one isnt going to pay an extra five or ten bucks to protect their children. If it was two hundred dollars difference, yes. But its not a cost issue; its an education issue. Madonna King: So explain to me anecdotally. One house has an ionisation alarm; the house next door has a photoelectric alarm. Both houses catch on fire. What is the difference in time frames? Adrian Butler: The difference in time frames can be from fifteen to thirty minutes. Sometimes the ionisation alarms wont activate at all. And I can tell you something and every one of your listeners is going to understand this. One way we know between twenty to thirty percent of them wont go off at all, ever, is because they get disconnected because of the incessant false alarms. www.theWFSF.org/brk Madonna King: Well why arent, why arent our fire fighters warning against this, are they aware of this? Adrian Butler: You know Ill tell you something yesterday I was really absolutely stunned. After we met with one of the ministers in New South Wales, because weve got a big fire chief over here from America. He then got us to go for a tour through the Sydney downtown Sydney fire brigade. The number one fire station in the whole of Australia. And not a single fire fighter, not even one of them, nobody knew about this, no one. Its an absolute disgrace. Note: It is NOT fire fighters fault when they have not been adequately informed by management! Madonna King: Have any states or jurisdictions overseas banned these alarms? Adrian Butler: Yes. Thats why the fire chief from Americas come out. Hes banned them in where he lives. He runs the Albany fire department. He did for thirty-three years. Theyve banned them in Albany as a result of our campaigning in America. And other campaigners in America. Note: Technically this is not correct. Ionization alarms have not been banned.Ionization, photoelectric alarms have been made mandatory. This effectively bans ionization alarms because when you have to install photoelectric alarms, virtually no one will install an additional ionization unit. Madonna King: All right so who can put in a photoelectric alarm? Do you need a builder or an electrician to do that? Adrian Butler: Madonna you could do it yourself. Whip down the hardware store buy one, put it in and protect your family. Madonna King: In our new estates going up across Queensland are the photoelectric alarms going in or is it the ionisation alarms? Adrian Butler: Almost all new homes are having ionisations put in. Madonna King: What kind of alarm do you have in your home? Adrian Butler: Photoelectric. Madonna King: Okay stay with me. Thats Adrian Butler from The World Fire Safety Foundation. Chief Superintendent Neil Reid is from the Queensland Fire and Rescue Service. Good Morning. Neil Reid: Good morning Madonna
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Madonna King: Can I ask you what kind of alarm you have in your home? Neil Reid: Photoelectric. Madonna King: You have a photoelectric one? Not an ionisation alarm? Neil Reid: I, I actually have both. Madonna King: Well would you agree that the photoelectric alarms are much safer than the ionisation alarms? Neil Reid: Certainly. Look weve, weve had a position since 2006. In alignment with the Australian Fire and Emergency Services Authorities Council (AFAC). Which is the big body for fire services across Australia. Theyve had a position since June 2006. The photoelectric alarms are generally more effective than ionisation alarms across a broader range of fires. AFACs official position sates: That all homes be fitted with photoelectric smoke alarms . . . Ionization smoke alarms may not operate in time to alert occupants early enough to escape from smouldering fires. www.theWFSF.org/afac Madonna King: All right you said this position, why havent the rest of us heard about it? Neil Reid: Certainly that, thats something that we have had on our literature and on our website for a long time. The beauty of this though is that we, we commissioned last month a, a program for winter fire safety. Which is one that we run every year but this, this year weve committed a record amount of money for smoke alarm campaigning, which is actually looking at not only the fact that you should change to a photoelectric but you should actually change your smoke alarm, because most smoke alarms in Queensland would be getting up to an age when their service life has now reached. Note: In answer to Madonnas question, the reason the rest of us have not heard about it is because the Queensland Fire & Rescue Service almost NEVER mention the word photoelectric in the media despite constant and ongoing complaints from the World Fire Safety Foundation. Why does the QFRS, like all Australian Fire Brigades, tells the public to install working smoke alarms when their official position is to install photoelectric smoke alarms? An example of the expression of concern on this issue is in the following document Here > > > (link to scribd doc) Madonna King: Back to the type of alarm, youre saying that photoelectric alarms are much better than the ionisation alarms? Neil Reid: They are, they are a better alarm for a range of fires. We have no evidence in Queensland to suggest that people have been killed because they havent had a, had a photoelectric alarm. Note: There is evidence in Queensalnd to suggest people have been killed because they havent had a, had a photoelectric alarm. www.theWFSF.org/5years Madonna King: But are you saying that for legal reasons? Neil Reid: No Im not, no Im not at all. What were saying is pretty much that at this point there is insufficient evidence to prove that people are dying in homes because ionisation detectors havent gone off. Note: The QFRS obtained a copy of the Coroners report after Kelly Anne Ellis died in what appeared to be a classic smouldering house fire in 2008. She had a working ionization smoke alarm installed in her home. The WFSF asked the QFRS to investigate her death, in writing, in December, 2008, after the Coroner failed to investigate the type of alarm installed in her Highland Park unit. After her death the QFSF interviewed her neighbours. Most had gone out and purchased new smoke alarms. All the alarms that were purchased were ionization. None of them had heard of photoelectric alarms. Madonna King: But as the head of the Queensland Fire and Rescue service youre saying the photoelectric alarms are better in a wider range of fires. You have one in your own home. What

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percentage of Queensland, what percentage of my listeners would have an ionisation alarm do you believe? Note: Chief Superintendent Neil Reid is not the head of the QFRS. Commissioner Lee Johnson is. Lee Johnson is also the current President of AFAC the organisation whos official position is Ionization smoke alarms may not operate in time to alert occupants early enough to escape from smouldering fires. See the Open Letter sent to Commissioner Johnson: www.theWFSF.org/5years Neil Reid: I would have to agree with Adrian, with your former speaker, saying that basically it would be ninety percent at least. Madonna King: So you say the beauty of this campaign is a record amount of money is going to educate people about this later this year. This has been your position for several years. Why havent you told the public this earlier? Neil Reid: Because theres continuing research going on in Australia. And the people that make the laws in Australia as, as was pointed out earlier such as the building code of Australia which sets the law and, and also the Australian Standards Comities at this point have said, have said that both types of alarms are suitable for homes. Note1: Because theres continuing research going on in Australia. AFACs official position came out on 01 June, 2006. It states, That all residential accommodation be fitted with photoelectric smoke alarms . . . Ionization smoke alarms may not operate in time to alert occupants early enough to escape from smouldering fires. The position is unequivocal the QFRS has a Duty of Care to adequately advise the public of AFACs position it has failed to adequately do so for over 5 years. Note 2: And the people that make the laws in Australia as was pointed out earlier such as the building code of Australia which sets the law. . . The Australian Building Codes Board accepted an amendment to AS1670.1 which mandated photoelectric smoke alarms in new commercial building in APRIL, 2004. After AFAC rejected Standards Australias proposal to correct the flawed standard form homes, the WFSF wrote to AFACs and AFACs lawyers stating, The Foundation may exercise its right at any time to take steps that
could result in the ABCB being held liable to manslaughter and any attendant loss and damage in respect of deaths and injuries . . .. The letter was published on the Foundations website in May, 2009. The ABCB and their lawyers failed to responded.

Note2: The claim that the Australian Standards committee at this point have said that both types of alarms are suitable from homes is false. The FP002 committee of Standards Australia has acknowledged Australias smoke alarm standard is flawed. In August 2008, they published a draft standard to eliminate the flawed testing that has allowed ionization smoke alarms to pass the Standard since 1993. Mr David Isaac is a committee member of FP002. He states in the WFSFs film, Ionization Smoke Alarms are DEADLY, (quote David saying The public have been mislead into beleiving that ionization smoke alarms are safe, the public have not been told of the known limitations of ionization smoke alarms and that safer and affordable protection is available.

Madonna King: Well its not the building code; its the politicians who set the law. Have you lobbied politicians to have them legislate so new homes should contain a photoelectric alarm not an ionisation alarm? Note: 14 December, 2004: The WFSF writes to Mr Max Poole, MP, the QFRS and the Minister for Emergency Services providing documentary evidence about the known dangers with ionization smoke alarms: www.Scribd.com/doc/14476085 01 June, 2006: AFACs official position on smoke alarms published. However, the public was NOT adequately warned about the known limitations of ionization smoke alarms as the QFRS mentioned working not photoelectric alarms in the media. 01 July, 2007: Legislation comes into force requiring all Queensland homes to be fitted with smoke alarms. Because the public had NOT been adequately advised about the two types, they were denied the opportunity to make an objective choice. Five years later, almost all Queensland homes have ionization alarms installed 22 May, 2008:
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Adrian Butler from the WFSF and Mr David Isaac from Standards Australia shook Minister Neil Roberts hand outside his office, 5 minutes before a meeting that had been scheduled 6 months earlier. Minister Roberts failed to attend the meeting 07 August, 2009: WFSF writes to Minister Neil Roberts asking Has the Government failed in its Duty of Care to adequately advise the public about smoke alarms?, and published the letter on the Internet. Minister Roberts does not respond. www.Scribd.com/doc/26581500 Neil Reid: We, we havent at this point gone to, to the minister and asked for legislation to mandate. What, what our view has always been is we try to make, allow people to make a choice. As I said there is no evidence in Queensland to suggest that people have died because of ionisation alarms. Note: How can people make a choice when they have not been adequately informed? Note2: there is no evidence in Queensland to suggest that people have died because of ionisation alarms. This is a false. See the Open Letter to Commissioner Johnson: www.theWFSF.org/5years Madonna King: You keep saying that, but, you keep saying that. How many people have died in a house fire in Queensland in the last five years? Neil Reid: Yeah, theres roughly, theres roughly about fifteen to eighteen people a year. Most of those deaths are caused because people dont maintain their alarms and they actually pull the batteries out of, out of their alarms for a number of reasons. Madonna King: Are you saying, in those deaths people had pulled their batteries out or they hadnt maintained their alarm? Neil Reid: Or they may not have, have a smoke alarm. And most of those deaths across that time is because of that reason. Madonna King: But you dont know how much safer the photoelectric alarms would be, because you say ninety-nine percent of Queenslanders have the ionisation alarms. Neil Reid: Theres no. There. As I said in Australia the evidence at the moment from the research indicates that photoelectric go off earlier in a smouldering fire and the photoelectrics are. Sorry ionisations go off better in a flaming fire. Note: The claim that photoelectrics go off earlier in smouldering fires and ionizations go off earlier in flaming fires is grossly misleading. However, the National Institute of Standards and Technolgys 2004 HSAT study, whcihc the QFRS produced in our first meeting in May 2005 states: Ionization smoke alarms are somewhat better at deteciting flaming fires and photoelectric smoke alarms are often considerably better at detecting smouldering fires. Q. Why has Neil Reid omitted the critical adjectives from the NIST report? Madonna King: Neil Reid, thank you Neil Reid: Thanks very much Madonna, for your time Madonna King: Chief Superintendent Neil Reid from the Queensland Fire and Rescue Service. Had you heard of these photoelectric alarms? Had you considered having one? Thats the head of the Queensland Fire and Rescue Service. He said he has one of these alarms in his house, that they are safer but that ninety-nine percent of you actually have an ionisation alarm. Should the government be doing more to tell you that you should be swapping over alarms? Is that what the Queensland Fire and Rescue Service should be doing? Conclusion: For five years since AFACs official position warning, Ionization smoke alarms may not operate in time to alert occupants early enough to escape from smouldering fires, the QFRS has failed to adequately warn the public. The QFRS is now proposing to spend $600,000 of tax payer money to advise the public of the issue. The solution to the problem is to ban and recall ionization smoke alarms. In the Today Tonight program, former U.S. Fire Chief Marc McGinn stated, The World Fire Safety Foundation requests Commissioner Lee Johnson, the head of the QFRS to:
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1. a radio interview with Madonna King, 2. explain why they have told the public to install working smoke alarms in the media when 3. explain if the QFRS will request PDL disclosure of the level of smoke the PDLSD100
ionization smoke alarms installed in the sleeping areas of the Burpengary fire station. AFACs official position is that the public install photoelectric alarms, and

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